FISC Chief Judge: We Can't Effectively Oversee the NSA 185
An anonymous reader writes "According to the Washington Post: 'The leader of the secret court that is supposed to provide critical oversight of the government's vast spying programs said that its ability to do so is limited and that it must trust the government to report when it improperly spies on Americans. The chief judge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court said the court lacks the tools to independently verify how often the government's surveillance breaks the court's rules that aim to protect Americans' privacy. Without taking drastic steps, it also cannot check the veracity of the government's assertions that the violations its staff members report are unintentional mistakes.' President Obama said in June, 'We also have federal judges that we've put in place who are not subject to political pressure. They've got lifetime tenure as federal judges, and they're empowered to look over our shoulder at the executive branch to make sure that these programs aren't being abused.' Not so much, Mr. President."
I finally understand.... (Score:5, Funny)
I have finally figured out why the statue holding 'the scales of justice' wore a blindfold! ;-)
Re:I finally understand.... (Score:5, Funny)
Finley Dunne, American writer and humorist: "Justice is blind an' deaf an' dumb, an' has a wooden leg".
Re:I finally understand.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Of course! Now it all makes sense...
Re: (Score:2)
Does that make the Congress robots?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I hear they're thinking of adding a clothespin on her nose.
Re: (Score:2)
I have finally figured out why the statue holding 'the scales of justice' wore a blindfold! ;-)
I can't figure out why they didn't give her a cigarette. It is traditional to offer somebody a blindfold and a cig before they face a firing squad, after all...
Re: (Score:2)
I have finally figured out why the statue holding 'the scales of justice' wore a blindfold! ;-)
No witnesses to the payoff.
And the peices fall into place (Score:2)
Re:And the peices fall into place (Score:5, Informative)
"Change You Can Believe In"!
Re:And the peices fall into place (Score:5, Insightful)
Obama delivered on the Transparency though, can see right through him
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, a lot of good that does. As you all keep on electing the same old crap, I sure hope none of you are expecting any better from his successor, or anybody else for the foreseeable future...
Re: (Score:2)
Obama delivered on the Transparency though, can see right through him
I think this statement was trying to say that he has obvious motives, or is ineffective at concealing his attempts at deception.
Re: (Score:2)
He's no more transparent than he ever was. It's only that people are looking a tiny bit more closely. His motives have been more than obvious since he first entered the arena of political gladiators' (more like the soap opera of professional wrestling). And please note, I'm not singling him out. This is the the very essence of the game.
Re: (Score:2)
It is hard for someone to catch you in a debate when you have taken every position on every issue at some point. There is always a sound byte of the correct answer available.
Re: (Score:2)
not that old story again (electing this or that guy).
face it: elections are a /dev/null exercise. no matter who you think is better, they've all been 'vetted' and chosen by the real leaders (groups) and they are sanitized so that they will respond to their true masters and owners.
it really matters very little who you vote for. they are pretty much the same, at this point. no left-leaning candidates can ever get into office. we have right and far right, now.
third party is a red herring. there's no way t
Re: (Score:3)
An interesting tidbit about is that on immigration tests, immigrants are taught that the US is made up of a 2 party system called Democrat and Republican. They teach this to kids in school as well.
I can't say I agree with your last point totally, since we have yet to test it. People need to be made aware of corrupt media and taught to get other candidates with high morals on ballots and not simply accept what they are given. That awakening is happening, and of course it may be too late. We have not prove
To put it into perspective (Score:3)
Face it, the worst elected government you've ever had ran the country better than when it was colonies owned by a King and privately owned corporations.
Re: (Score:2)
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
Re:And the peices fall into place (Score:5, Funny)
Can we wantonly spy on your Internet activities?
YES WE CAN!
Can we store your email and search it at our leisure?
YES WE CAN!
Can we create a judicial overview process so flimsy and one-sided that there's almost no chance of any request being turned down?
YES WE CAN!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This isn't partisan hackery. Plenty of people who thought that Obama was going to make things better have been thoroughly disillusioned.
Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)
This isn't partisan hackery. Plenty of people who thought that Obama was going to make things better have been thoroughly disillusioned.
OK, Constitutional Practice 101 time.
El Presidente is head of the Executive branch. He's also Head of State. His job is to implement laws voted into existence by Congress. Congress creates the laws, not El Presidente. The current El Presidente is stuck with a Congress that can't vote on a lunch menu let alone something like a budget, a jobs bill, a 'take care of the veterans' bill, and so forth. When the 'Opposition' screams at him to 'compromise', what they do is demand he do things their way, follow
Re: (Score:2)
Which makes the prior house and senate makeup a bunch of weenies. They should have just pushed through what they wanted, ignoring any calls for bi-partisanship.
The electorate gave the prior house and senate a majority: they should have used it, not p*ssed it away.
Re: (Score:2)
The "Obama-Care" which was so incredibly REPUBLICAN to start with.
Irony of Ironies.
Re: (Score:2)
No, we do NOT have a TWO PARTY system. That's what's FUCKING WRONG with this country.
We have a TWO-PARTY SEWER CLOG.
And all the damn plumbers keep voting to do nothing about it instead of calling ROTO-ROOTER and DRAINING the fucking SWAMP.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, and I'm one of them.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
I don't think making fun of Obama's overused campaign catchphrase indicates that he's a Republican.
And I find Obama's transgressions worse, as his stated goals ran COUNTER to this yet he has in fact expanded it drastically.
For one, Bush was definitely for it but not at this scale.
For another, Bush is no longer president, nor even a major force, so you bringing him up is pointless blather.
Re: (Score:2)
What makes you think I'm a conservative?
Christ, half the Republicans in Congress don't want any legislative changes that might "compromise" safety.
Re: (Score:2)
He said change you could believe in, not change you would agree with.
Re:And the peices fall into place (Score:4, Insightful)
Is that a portmanteau of "repressive representative" government?
Sigh... (Score:5, Informative)
Translation: The whole thing is a monumentally tragic, Constitution-violating fuck up, brought to you by two successive Administrations and a Congress that couldn't give a flying fuck about the Constitution.
What a pathetic situation.
Re: (Score:2)
Or maybe I'm being overly optimistic...
Re:Sigh... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Panem? How can you eat a TV programme?
Re:Sigh... (Score:5, Insightful)
Nope. .. they'll add more "oversight".
This'll just mean the republicans will get in next time with a landslide.
People who vote think the system works. Voting reinforces that.
All of this will be blamed on Obama... and the next government will make some visible but ineffective changes. After running on "ending the spying" or some such.
They won't abolish these programs or punish the illegal spying.
Re: (Score:2)
Let's unfuck America now!
Re: (Score:2)
Judging by the language in which it is written - heavily laden with words like "progressive" (as an insult) and "statist" - this is yet another libertarian thinking that they've got the plan to fix the world. Even assuming that they do, what exactly makes you believe that public at large would sign up to that vision?
Re: (Score:2)
Look, anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows that your proposals won't come to pass. So what's with the "maybe not"? Why don't you and your ilk try doing something effective, instead of grandstanding?
Re: (Score:2)
the repubs will NEVER run on 'ending the spying'. they are total control freaks.
the dems are, too; but they keep a lower profile.
both are still aweful and none can be trusted anymore.
Re: (Score:2)
Start talking to people and educating them, that is our way out. Show them the way, and have them educate others. If we don't, the only chance for being free comes from a nasty and bloody revolt.
Re: (Score:2)
Translation: The whole thing is a monumentally tragic, Constitution-violating fuck up, brought to you by two successive Administrations and a Congress that couldn't give a flying fuck about the Constitution.
What a pathetic situation.
If you can't control it, then get rid of it before it gets bigger and multiplies.
Re: (Score:2)
Absolutely agreed.
Ain't it time to just clean the fucking house already? Just kick all the sob's out and put brand new ones in there.
If they're in, vote 'em OUT.
Re: (Score:2)
we have a bad process. so your solution is to fork another process.
what we need is a new bashrc. using the old broken one and forking new instances will never fix our hung process.
Re:Sigh... (Score:4, Interesting)
we have a bad process. so your solution is to fork another process.
what we need is a new bashrc. using the old broken one and forking new instances will never fix our hung process.
Our .bashrc is fine. The problem is that for 240 years, the sysadmins have been writing hackish, winding, indecipherable spaghetti code extension scripts designed to circumvent or undo all the good things .bashrc does. Then the auditors come in, look very closely at the scripts, and say, "Yup. Looks good. Those are definitely legitimate extensions to .bashrc."
Re: (Score:2)
So let's write in NONE-OF-THE-FUCKING-ABOVE and then whatever slob has changed his name to that for a freakin joke will WIN.
It can't POSSIBLY be any worse than the SHIT we already have.
from the horses mouth... (Score:2)
nothing to see here, we are not doing anything illegal.
i wish I can use that same logic for IRS
Re: (Score:3)
From: IRS
RE: Audit
Dear Zlives,
You appear to have recently posted a comment with an explicit and/or implied criticism of the King^H^H^H^H President and/or his ministers^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H executive agencies. On an unrelated note, we are writing to inform you that, as a courtesy, we will be auditing you in the near future. Please prepare for this audit by gathering all tax records since the dawn of time, including supporting documentation, and a generous supply of ointment for lacerations and bruise
we don't have checks and balances (Score:5, Insightful)
we haven't had checks and balances in our government since the Gore V Bush decision, when Bush's dad's appointed supreme court ruled it's more important to abide by Florida's arbitrary date to count their votes than to count all the fucking votes using as much time as is necessary to insure an accurate count. why the fuck would anyone trust the US courts now? especially after the "corporations are people" decision.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Dude, let it go [usatoday.com]
Are you violating anyone's right? (Score:2)
NSA: Who, us? Nevar!
I Salute Your Courage! (Score:5, Insightful)
So, your honor, please tell us why you didn't bring these concerns to our attention before somebody with more guts than you'll ever have brought the matter up?
Hell, you probably could have brought these concerns up without even revealing anything classified, or breaking any rules. They probably didn't remember to make it a state secret that you have no oversight powers worth mentioning, so it would have been entirely licit for you to complain about that.
We might as well be honest here: Every day that you knew you had no oversight; but remained as a FISC justice, much less chief justice, you knowingly operated as a rubber stamp and a pitiful facade of rule of law. A rubber stamp for a program that you cannot have been stupid enough to think was entirely on the up-and-up. Unimpressive. Cowardly. Unworthy of your office.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
We might as well be honest here: Every day that you knew you had no oversight; but remained as a FISC justice, much less chief justice, you knowingly operated as a rubber stamp and a pitiful facade of rule of law. A rubber stamp for a program that you cannot have been stupid enough to think was entirely on the up-and-up. Unimpressive. Cowardly. Unworthy of your office.
What you missed to mentioned: it's a life-long tenure as a rubber stamp; he just happened he liked his life long (as opposed to NSA starting to spill whatever skeletons in his closet and/or the equivalent of whatever passed nowadays as sending-in-a-drone on US soil).
Re:I Salute Your Courage! (Score:4, Insightful)
No, but what a judge can do if he feels that those laying out their case in front of him can do is refuse any ruling, or indeed throw out the request, if he feels he's been fed partial or incorrect knowledge.
Re: (Score:2)
And, according to the publicly available figures, the FISC almost never refuses. Since its inception, it granted 33,942 requests and denied 11. A brutal .03% denial rate.
The current chief justice was appointed in mid 2007, so we can look more specifically at 2008-present:
2008: 2,082 requests, 2 modified, 1 denied.
2009: 1,329 requests, 14 modified, 1 denied.
2010: 1,511 requests, 14 modified, 1 denied.
2011: 1,676 requests, 30 modified, 0 denied.
2012: 1,789 requests, 40 modified, 0 denied.
He... certainly isn't
Re: (Score:2)
Re:I Salute Your Courage! (Score:5, Insightful)
FISC judges, LIKE ALL JUDGES, are at the mercy of those walking into their court to provide them information
Then it wouldn't really be accurate to refer to that as "oversight", would it?
Re: (Score:2)
More like Undersight.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I wholeheartedly agree. And that is one of the number one reasons I'm disillusioned with Obama. No matter how he went in, he has either revealed himself or else succumbed to the politics machine and left his ideals at the door-- assuming he actually ever had any. I think his intentions are good, but you know what they say about that-- the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Obama is a "Constitutional Scholar"??? (Score:3)
"The judges, both of the supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behaviour, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office." -- U.S. Constitution, Article III, Section 1. [emphasis added]
I think it is very much arguable that the FISA court judges, having "rubber stamped" nearly all surveillance requests, can be said to have violated "good behaviour".
Re: (Score:2)
Obama needs to stop talking about the NSA. No matter what he says, Snowden will pull out a document a few days later proving him wrong.
Instead, Obama should just stand up for his next speech or press conference . . . and just blow us all a Bronx Cheer.
Re: (Score:2)
can be said to have violated "good behaviour".
Arguable to whom? We have Sens. Wyden, Udall, Paul, Lee, Sanders, Merkley - and that's pretty much it. That's six out of 100, leaving 94 Senators in support of the NSA's unconstitutional behavior. Only 1/3 of them are up for re-election next year and you can expect at least 2/3 of those will be returning. So, even after the next election, you might have, at best, 16 : 84 in the Senate.
For the same reason it's not even worth the effort to bring impeachment c
Re: (Score:2)
"Arguable to whom? We have Sens. Wyden, Udall, Paul, Lee, Sanders, Merkley..."
Not really. You actually have more than that. Those are just the most outspoken ones. And others are starting to get pretty damned uncomfortable.
But more to the point: if PEOPLE put pressure on their Legislators, something will get done. This is the kind of thing that people DO remember, come election day.
Re: (Score:2)
Well, I reckon it depends on who is signing those paychecks.
(Hint: It ain't you or me)
Re: (Score:2)
And yet it's congress that reserves the right to impeach them.
Do you think they will when the NSA has skeletons to use if their pet rubber stamper is disarmed?
Re: (Score:2)
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_judge#Tenure_and_salary"
And your point is?
I mean, thanks for confirming my point... not that Wikipedia is the supreme arbiter of such things. The words in the Constitution were not garbled, and their meaning is clear even today... no outdated phrasing to be seen. Good behavior is good behavior. If they don't behave, Congress can remove them. By impeachment, or even (as the last part implies) by other means.
Pretty much what I said.
Re: (Score:2)
"Except what you bolded does not invalidate what he said. "Tenure" is not irrevocable and does not imply any such thing. Tenure simply means you can't have your position revoked without just cause. So, yes, they do have lifetime tenure as long as they are not impeached (aka the "just cause" for being dismissed)."
As far as I am concerned, it's all semantic games. Good behavior is good behavior. Anything referring to "lifetime" anything in relation to Federal judges is just an attempt to distort the simple truth.
They should just appoint a special investigator. (Score:5, Interesting)
They should just appoint a special investigator.
They could give the investigator over-arching extra-legal authority, just like the agency he'd be investigating.
I hear Edward Snowden has some experience in this area, and is currently in need of a job...
Re:They should just appoint a special investigator (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, I'm sure they'll pick someone from the NSA who will report to the NSA, and the report will be sealed and we'll get to watch a press conference where the President intones very seriously "I won't comment on the contents of the report, but suffice to say you can trust me and there's nothing to worry about."
Re:They should just appoint a special investigator (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm not, because Congress long ago abandoned a key role as a check on the Executive in favor of near constant partisan bickering. The end result is little more than a bitching chamber, where the party on top pushes its agenda, the other party consumes itself in trying to fuck up that agenda and get to the top. They are basically blind to all other considerations, and a pure political animals, squared off into two warring tribes, who have no sense of civic duty, no sense of morality or any sense of their purpose.
Breach of constitionalrights a criminal offence? (Score:2)
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Score:2)
Get more spies! (Score:3)
Get more spies of course. Call it the NSA Safety Agency.
Hmmmm..... (Score:2)
We also have federal judges that we've put in place who are not subject to political pressure. They've got lifetime tenure as federal judges
Don't we have entire government departments dedicated to shortening lifetimes as efficiently as possible? Even if it's illegal and during times of peace?
Seriously, if the system of laws that enabled our society to thrive and exist thus far no longer apply to the people entrusted to enforce and protect them..... we have a serious f**king problem on our hands.
The president has a license to murder people and the means to spy on them with impunity. Outside of judicial oversight for the most part. For the saf
Bad news, but it's the same in your town. (Score:2)
who trusting what? (Score:2)
[The NSA] must trust the government to report when it improperly spies on Americans.
NO. What the NSA should trust is that the US Constitution overrides any other law in place. Something isn't "technically legal" just because it hasn't been ruled unconstitutional, that's just an excuse for getting away with criminal activities.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Report to the nearest NSA facility for rehabilitation.
I think they call them "Fusion Centers" now...
Re: (Score:2)
The NSA has worked out fusion?! Excellent, at least then some of the dollars spent might have a useful offshoot... if only we could get them to declassify it.
Re:I can't effectively promise. (Score:4, Funny)
The NSA has worked out fusion?! Excellent, at least then some of the dollars spent might have a useful offshoot... if only we could get them to declassify it.
The DoD worked out fusion quite nicely about 65 years ago. The energy yields of the reactors are truly impressive---their best experimental reactor had an output of something like 60 petajoules from negligible input power. (The Soviets built an even bigger reactor with close to 200 PJ). It's the containment facility that's been giving us problems since then. Work out that little detail, and you're sitting on a gold mine.
Re: (Score:3)
The whoosh is strong in this one.
Re: (Score:3)
Report to the nearest NSA facility for rehabilitation.
I think they call them "Fusion Centers" now...
I think they're called FEMA camps.
Re: (Score:2)
Report to the nearest NSA facility for rehabilitation.
I think they call them "Fusion Centers" now...
I think they're called FEMA camps.
Happy Camps!
District 10.
Re: (Score:2)
Why am I suddenly reminded of the book chute [youtube.com]?
Re: (Score:2)
Don't worry, son. Just take this pen and sign. I can assure that you're a true patriot.
And keep that bag on your head now. Only terrorists peek.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
OOPS Wrong tab wrong article! Too many slashdot tabs open..Got to keep it to under 50.
...and here I thought you were trying to say something deep about the two articles....
Is the US constitution being represented by the meteor?
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
And in other unrelated news, the Incredible Hulk has come out as gay. "Me like wearing the pink undies." he was quoted as saying. Reports suggest he's dating Aquaman, though Aquaman's agent had not returned our calls by press time.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
the fisc is for supervising fisa, as feinstein notes. the report detailed violations under eo12333. feinstein also notes the need to step up oversight of eo12333 by the intel committees, *not* the fisc court
' President Obama said in June, 'We also have federal judges that we've put in place who are not subject to political pressure. They've got lifetime tenure as federal judges, and they're empowered to look over our shoulder at the executive branch to make sure that these programs aren't being abused.'
Tell me please, who is it that is misleading here?
Re: (Score:3)
Oh, I don't think the judges are being subjected to political pressure. Rather, I think they're being subjected to misinformation campaigns.
Re: (Score:2)
"Oh, I don't think the judges are being subjected to political pressure. Rather, I think they're being subjected to misinformation campaigns."
Exactly. The threats and blackmail might well be waiting in the wings, if needed, but up until very recently there would be no chance of need. Once you get them ok with the basic setup of making all their decisions in secret after hearing from only one party, and relying exclusively on that party for arguments and evidence to inform their decisions, there's no need to
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
So did Jr and Little-Dicked Cheney
Re: (Score:2)
It wouldn't be so bad if EVERYBODY in the U.S. had a fair shot at the data collected, and to collect it on EVERYBODY from bottom to top, NO exceptions.
That could actually be interesting. Then I wonder who would be squirming.