Tennessee Official: Water Complaints Could be "Act of Terrorism" 407
An anonymous reader writes "A Tennessee Department of Environment and Conservation deputy director is threatening citizens with being listed as terrorists for giving official complaints. Sherwin Smith, deputy director of TDEC’s Division of Water Resources said: 'But you need to make sure that when you make water quality complaints you have a basis, because federally, if there's no water quality issues, that can be considered under Homeland Security an act of terrorism.' 'In terms of the comments made by a member of the Water Resources Division at the meeting, we are just receiving the information and looking into this on our end,' spokeswoman Meg Lockhart said. 'The department would like to fully assess what was said in the meeting. I am told that the meeting was far longer than the audio clip provided by SOCM and that Mr. Smith actually clarified his remarks. But again, we are looking into it.'"
Scare tactics (Score:5, Insightful)
The government's number one tool in the fight against terrorism.
Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Interesting)
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For the most part you are probably correct.
I live in Chicago, your assumption is not true here, and not true at the state level in Illinois.
For most larger cities, there are enough groups vying for power that too much corruption in any one group could be used by rivals to expose the more currupt and cause them to lose power. A kind of check and balance based on power grubbing and greed.
Here, people keep voting for whoever got them their patronage based job, so the checks and balances are almost non-exi
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Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Insightful)
The government's number one tool in the fight against terrorism.
I hate to say it, but by definition, the only way for terrorism to work is for people to be terrified.
If the People would grow a backbone again, and stop being terrified, no matter if it's salafi jihadists or government propagandists who are attempting the scaring, then there could be no terrorism. War's over, let's pack up and go home.
A skiddish populous is the #1 tool in the effort that has been misnamed the "War on Terror".
Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Insightful)
I get what you were trying to say, but there's got to be a better way to say it.
Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Insightful)
One of those things eats the other.
Hint: The lion only fears other lions. The lamb fears that big scary yellow ball chasing it over the horizon every morning.
Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually...lions aren't fans of many other species. Hyenas for example. Large enough numbers of hyenas can take down a lioness.
Just because you're at the top of the local food chain...or occupying one of the higher positions, doesn't mean you don't see a pair of fork and knives when you look down.
Re:Scare tactics (Score:4, Insightful)
Lamb, Chicken, Cows and Pigs are not endangered species. Lions are.
There's a worth in becoming domesticated. Ever see a wild Cow?
Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Insightful)
A thousand years of abject terror.
Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Scare tactics (Score:4, Funny)
yipee kay yay, motherfucker!
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I thought the reason to not live as a lamb was that you had no hope to live a thousand years.
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American here. Only the educated people here have probably even heard the word "mutton", and most of them probably don't know what it is either; at best, they probably think it's some kind of dish served in England. And no one here has ever heard of "hoggett"; this thread is in fact the first time I've heard of it.
Re:Scare tactics (Score:4, Funny)
FYI I would counter most Americans know what mutton is, why you ask? Seinfeld did an episode based on mutton.
Re:Scare tactics (Score:4, Funny)
Well, it is hard to have "sheep" and "Romance" in the same sentence. Unless you're from New Zealand.
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"Nowadays any sheep meat that isn't classified as lamb due to its age is usually called mutton. [...] Offhand, I can't think of any words from French or Romance languages."
Then, you will be surprised that mutton in French is... mouton.
And it comes from the ancient French moton. In Italian, montoni.
Re: Scare tactics (Score:3)
Some other names of meat of farm animals come from French:
- beef, from boeuf
- mutton, from mouton
- pork, from porc
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Mutton never meant goat, especially not in the U.S.
Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Insightful)
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True enough, but you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel if you putative scary monsters come from people complaining about government services. Who's next? People who don't pay parking tickets?
Boo!
Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Insightful)
personally I'm waiting for them to label schoolyard bullies as terrorists since obviously they're terrorizing people and the law must be the same for everyone - no exceptions(exept gov.)!
Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Insightful)
Not a chance that'll happen. In America, we like bullies, and we make fun of people who are their victims. Just look at what happens every time a bullying incidents develops to the point that some poor kid kills him/herself. Americans worship assholes. We might say a few nice-sounding words against bullies once in a while, but we'll never do anything to actually fix the problem, nor will we ever hold bullies accountable for their behavior.
It's just like how we worship sociopathic business owners, and defend thier unethical and even dangerous behavior, and anyone who complains about them is blackballed in the industry. Whistleblowers (for instance, people who go to the government to stop a business owner whose practices will get someone killed through negligence) are seen as "rats", and will never get another job.
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Considering the number of suicides from kids who were cyber-bullied for years, I don't think their position is as radical as it seems.
As the father of a teenage girl who was bullied at one school, if it ever led that far, the school would have several less students in it the next month.
Between the two options, which would you rather have?
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Having been to China, I have to point out how silly you're being. Traffic and parking tickets there are rare, and it shows. People drive on the sidewalks, on both sides of the street, park pretty much wherever they feel like parking.
So, it would be the end of society as we know it, as the society as we know it is reasonably safe to cross the street. In much of China, if you wish to cross the street, you look left, you look right, you look left, you look behind you, then proceed after doing it a couple times
Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Insightful)
However, in an experiment, a Dutch town removed basically all traffic signs [guardian.co.uk] and were considerably safer, because instead of relying upon signs and stoplights to tell them what to do, they had to instead actually pay attention to their surroundings. Believe it or not, we generally have strong instincts for self-preservation, and social mechanisms often work better than rules or legal mechanisms when no such system exists.
Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Insightful)
Given what you say, it's the government that are the terrorists.
The government is the entity that decided that the people were afraid. The governments actions have caused me to be afraid...of the government.
Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Interesting)
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If by "this nation" you mean the USA, then lots of people in other countries are scared of your government and have been for quite a while.
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Re:Scare tactics (Score:4, Insightful)
I can't let this go.
Estimated US deaths due to alcohol: 80,000... per year. The estimated economic costs of excessive alcohol consumption (in 2006) were $223.5 billion
Lets look at some other numbers from the CDC on deaths in 2010...
Heart disease: 597,689
Cancer: 574,743
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 138,080
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 129,476
Alzheimer's disease: 83,494
Diabetes: 69,071
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 50,476
Influenza and Pneumonia: 50,097
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 38,364
Homicide: 16,259.
Motor Vehicular-related: 32,885
So don't go on about how the Afghanistan campaign is proportionate. You look like a putz.
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The poster I responded was essentially arguing that the US should not be engaged in military action to defend itself as long as disease killed more people. It was a nonsense argument whether you apply it to national defense or law enforcement, which is what I was demonstrating.
Whoa, whoa. Don't you put words in my mouth; I never said anything of the sort. Full stop.
All I did was re-print some fatality statistics that showed the numbers argument is worthless when justifying the war on terror. I didn't think my brevity would be taken to mean so much more.
Honestly, you can blast the shit out of [actual] terrorists and I'll cheer, go get em & godspeed. But to state that the reaction to 9/11 and other terrorist attacks is proportionate to the amount of lives and money lost i
Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Insightful)
there may be some foundation though.. remember the "dihydrogen monoxide" prank those Florida DJs pulled on April Fools.
possible felony charges (of course this was radio, so that's understandable because of the panic they caused)
the charges never materialized.
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/entertainment/2013/04/florida-djs-april-fools-water-joke/63798/ [theatlanticwire.com]
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That story is indeed terrifying for several reasons.
Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Insightful)
In other news Orson Welles is retroactively found guilty of terrorism by a secret government court.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Here's where my imagination runs wild - I mean what I'm about to post is pure fiction:
Somewhere near this town, some very well connected industry and industrialist is polluting the water.
Now, a rich and powerful person who makes a lot of campaign contributions can order his bitch to order the state bureaucrat to hide the problem to intimidate people to shut up. I think it's called racketeering.
Because after all, it's not like corrupt government officials in Tennessee have ever tried to screw over their ci [wikipedia.org]
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.
Is it going to become illegal to protest the government/city/county poisoning the water?
Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Funny)
You know when fluoridation first began?
Nineteen hundred and forty-six. 1946. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.
Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Insightful)
Is to terrorize innocent people with threats of imprisonment?
Re:Scare tactics (Score:5, Informative)
7-pool is better than a 6-pool, but if they wall off before your zerglings get there, you're toast. Roach timings are better, especially if the Terran goes early expand.
This has to end.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Welcome to the new McCarthyism. Any time you do anything "they" don't like, you're a ter'ist...
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While I generally agree with the concept, there's one problem with McCarthyism you may have missed.
Turns out, after a lot of documents from the era and before have revealed, Russia and the communist movement actually DID have widespread influence over the US government. The results have been quite visible. For example, one obvious result is that "the people" have this ridiculous notion that the government is "here to protect them."
The federal government is not here to "protect us." It is charged with the
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The purpose of the Federal Government is to guarantee and secure our freedom and rights. Of course this asshole and most others in the Fed have lost sight of this.
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SMH. RTFA. Hell, RTFS: "Tennessee Department of Environment and Conservation deputy director...not a federal official.
Anti-federalists who think that state governments would guarantee and secure our freedom and rights if we just got the feds out of the way, would be amusing if they were not dangerously ignorant of history, law, and fact.
Re:This has to end.. (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't give a shit about him. The Federal Government's job is to guarantee and secure our freedoms and rights. That's the purpose of the Constitution which is supposed to be the basis for all Federal law. From all enemies both foreign and DOMESTIC. Including the dickhead from the Tennessee Department of Environment and Conservation.
Re:This has to end.. (Score:5, Informative)
The purpose of the Federal Government is to guarantee and secure our freedom and rights. Of course this asshole and most others in the Fed have lost sight of this.
Let me see if I've got this straight. Other people and the government (which is apparently a different thang than 'other people') are the ones who are supposed to protect each and every one of us against other people and the government taking away our rights?
There's a reason I think the term 'rights' is pretty much just philosophic bullshit.
Pretend you're an analyst trying to define the requirement of rights for a society. Splain how that would work.
Re:This has to end.. (Score:5, Informative)
Umm.
No, they were unfounded.
The 'documents' you're referring to are the venona intercepts.
You can read them here. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/venona/intercepts.html [pbs.org]
It had nothing to do with undermining the entire U.S. Government as McCarthy was paranoid about.
It was about Our government trying to find soviet spys who were only here for one thing. To get information on the atomic bomb.
If you actually knew the history of the time, there was a short period where the united states was the only actor to have nuclear weaponry and everyone wanted it.
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Or, more importantly, losing or even worse, giving up their personal FREEDOM over the purported "boogeyman".
Re:This has to end.. (Score:5, Interesting)
I am in agreement with Mister Transistor on this one. Abuse of the terrorist label seems to be going up, not down. I was going to suggest we call what's going on now McCarthyism v2.
Re:This has to end.. (Score:5, Informative)
it's true you know (Score:4, Funny)
Citizen complaints sometimes terrify people!
I just hate being wrong all the time (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I just hate being wrong all the time (Score:4, Funny)
Eventually they will reach a singularity of stupid, from which no intelligence can escape.
Re:I just hate being wrong all the time (Score:5, Insightful)
Eventually they will reach a singularity of stupid, from which no intelligence can escape.
We reached that with George W. Bush. Now we're in a black hole of stupid.
Fire Sherwin Smith immediately (Score:5, Insightful)
Sherwin Smith should be fired immediately. If I threatened my customers, my boss would rightfully fire me on the spot.
Re:Fire Sherwin Smith immediately (Score:5, Insightful)
Sherwin Smith should be fired immediately. If I threatened my customers, my boss would rightfully fire me on the spot.
Public agencies utilities don't have "customers", they have "captive consumers". You can threaten them or piss them off all you want, they have no choice but to keep buying your product or paying taxes at whatever price you set.
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Actually he'd promote you, if the threats worked.
Re:Fire Sherwin Smith immediately (Score:4, Informative)
Sherwin Smith should be fired immediately.
And did you notice? Just before that quote, Sherwin Smith had said that all the people who originally complained had backed down once he gave them a phone call, so they didn't have to do any water testing. In light of the terrorist comment, it's now obvious what he told them to make them back down.
This guy shouldn't just be fired. He should be put on leave on absence and he should be investigated for possible criminal negligence. And all the complaints he received should be re-investigated by an impartial third party.
If someone, that had formally complained, now dies because this guy didn't want to test the water, it will be his head and the heads of any of his superiors that support him, that will roll because of their willful negligence.
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fired, from a cannon
Into the sun.
Re:Fire Sherwin Smith immediately (Score:5, Insightful)
As often noted by rabid conservative anti-government ideologues wanting to make points through a ludicrous idiotic adulteration of logic: "You choose to remain within the physical area that the government controls, therefor it's your choice.... you can leave anytime you want."
A grave threat (Score:5, Funny)
This is no doubt the sort of horrifying terrorist plot the NSA telephone surveillance program has been so successful foiling. Thank good we has such dedicated protectors to save us from the terrorists.
Surely the HS would charge TDEC with false reports (Score:3)
Terrorism is so overrated. (Score:2)
People abusing "terrorism" for bullshitting society are a terrorist threat to society themselves.
Cars kill more people, smoking kills more people, alcohol kills more people.
Educate the sheep. Stop this bullshit.
Treating free speech as terrorism IS terrorism (Score:4, Interesting)
This government official needs to be brought up on charges of making verbal threats and abuse of power.
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Seems to me he nailed it.
Any civil servant threatening (Score:5, Insightful)
arrogant local official playing the terrorist card (Score:2)
This water quality official is projecting his frustration onto the people he is supposed to serve. If he can't do his job, he should resign. Instead, he's trying to play the terrorist card. Embarrassed by this outrage, his superiors have gone into damage control mode saying his remarks were taken out of context and that he later clarified his position.
Wow. Is this what we have to look forward to?
And this is why we should fear government (Score:5, Insightful)
And this is why we should fear how much the government should be allowed to intrude into our lives. Because who knows what sort of low-level bitter bureaucrat may just take a disliking to you, and end up abusing government powers.
The proper damage control ... (Score:2)
... would be to fire Sherwin Smith immediately. There is no context for this kind of outrageous behavior. Then hire someone who will be more positive about making the water better.
Abuse of authority (Score:2, Interesting)
Excessive unfounded complaints, probably (Score:5, Insightful)
If there's several simultaneous valid complaints alleging something like a serious illness, the water system may have to be shut down while it's tested or risk spread of a contamination. We've had that happen several times where I live (and I live in a major metropolitan area) when initial tests have shown a possible bacterial problem and they've needed several days for comprehensive tests to tell whether there really is a problem or not. I'd be outraged if a single complaint would have them labeling the complainant a terrorist, but I suspect the missing context is that they're discussing concerted multiple reports filed with the intent of forcing a shutdown and possibly where the complainants are aware they don't have a reasonable basis for the complaints (think anti-fluoridation kooks wanting to "send a message").
Re:I don't get it. (Score:5, Insightful)
They dont want you dead, just obedient, subservient, docile and blindly supporting them. How can you make them richer & more powerful if you're dead?
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They dont want you dead, just obedient, subservient, docile and blindly supporting them. How can you make them richer & more powerful if you're dead?
that's assuming they have any logic left in their actions. it's just a spiral of decisions that has been spiraling so long that I wouldn't bet that they know the original motivations anymore. maybe that's why they're doing so much surveillance, hoping to find out who put the whole garbage train of shit in motion.
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Soylent Green?
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Because you have to have "someone" to do all the killing. And that's the challenging part. First you have to have a bunch of really stupid people working for you. They're making serious progress in that area. Next, everyone 'else' must be branded as a criminal or terrorist or both. That's the fun part because we're seeing that everywhere too. One of the latest initiatives is electronic license plates! That's right! Imagine how much easier it will be to identify bad people when their license plates a
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I wouldn't be surprised if it actually can be an act of terrorism to make a complaint. In that case don't blame the messenger.
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The current situation is simply amazing. You just can't make this shit up:
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1267204/us-cyber-snooping-makes-it-worlds-biggest-villain-our-age-says-xinhua [scmp.com]
Re:Oh well, it was nice while it lasted... (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know. I think Terry Gilliam was very close to making this shit up when he wrote the script for Brazil.
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Re:Oh well, it was nice while it lasted... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why? I've read a lot of articles here on slashdot over the past years about the US accusing China for snooping.
Isn't it fair when it's exposed that the US does the same on an even larger scale, for China to mention this hypocrisy?
Re:Sensationalism (Score:5, Insightful)
listed as terrorists for giving unfounded official complaints
Fine even if that is the case we have other laws that cover things like that. "Making false reports", "libel", and "slander", would be some potential examples. These laws carry with them what most people consider to be appropriate penalties and restitution requirements. Slapping the term "terrorist' on everyone who steps even slightly out line has all sorts of negative consequences.
Re:Sensationalism (Score:4, Insightful)
Right. And lets take this a step further. What is an "official complaint"? Making a public statement I can understand as designed to instill fear among the general population. But raising the issue either through official channels for such feedback? Nope. They asked for comments, they got them. If they don't like them, tough.
Its also my understanding that the complaints were along the lines of: "This water makes me/my kids sick." Not, "There's poison in the water." The former is subjective and purely dependent on the sensitivity of the particular consumer to some attribute of the water.
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If you're making a water quality complaint you can't know usually 100% that there's something officially wrong with the water.
you see, sometimes if water has a color problem that is not actually a water quality problem. same goes to some tastes the water might have.
so basically he threatened that you can't make a water quality complaint unless there's turds floating in your water... the reason why it's a complaint and not an alarm is that subjectively something about the water feels suspect.
it's friggin stu
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Perhaps what was meant was don't incite panic making a false claim, as in don't yell "Fire!"
The department would like to fully assess what was said in the meeting. I am told that the meeting was far longer than the audio clip provided by SOCM and that Mr. Smith actually clarified his remarks.
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Making threats to attack should be taken seriously, whether the method be bombs, guns or poisons.
Once you point out the bit where the residents make a threat I'll concede that you have an excellent point here.
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I agree that method of determination is garbage, nevertheless, that is how human social morality works.
Terrorists target 'innocent' civilians. Of course, if your entire way of life is at stake, no one on the other side is innocent.
For example, take the Sioux Indians in 1865 getting run off of their land by Caucasian invaders.
Suppose they sent someone over to Europe to stop the flow of money supporting the invasion, maybe breach a few dikes in Holland and