Edward Snowden Leaves Hong Kong 536
hazeii writes "Ed Snowden, the U.S. whistleblower responsible for exposing the degree to which the U.S. watches its own citizens (as well as the rest of the world) is reported as having left Hong Kong for Moscow. According to the South China Morning Post, he is on a commercial flight to Russia but intriguingly it seems this is not his final destination. It's not clear whether this move is in response to the U.S. request to extradite him."
Going to Russia for safety from the US. (Score:5, Funny)
What has the world come to?
Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US. (Score:5, Informative)
Eh, it's happened now and then [wikipedia.org]...
He is not entering Russia. (Score:5, Informative)
"Russia’s Interfax news service, citing a “person familiar with the situation,” reported that Mr. Snowden would remain in transit at an airport in Moscow for “several hours” pending an onward flight to Cuba, and would therefore not formally cross the Russian border or be subject to detention."
Re:He is not entering Russia. (Score:5, Insightful)
You are deluded if you think Russia vs United States, Russia is the 'good guys'. In fact, I don't consider the US to be 'good guys', but compared to Russia they appear to be. Putin orders hits on reports who write unfavourable articles on him, more than once, and its fairly widely accepted in Russia. End of story.
The US and all its NSA bullshit isn't quite comparable to the threat of death for speaking out, if so all of the reporters who've covered Snowden would be fearing for their lives.
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Re:He is not entering Russia. (Score:5, Informative)
I'm sorry; I tried to follow your advice by reading the Pravda (English version; I can't read Russian), but I couldn't keep a straight face:
(...) Obama nervously looked over his notes as Putin spoke clearly from his memory and intelligence. At meetings end Obama then went on to try and slap a handshake. It was met with President Putin's stone hand which withered Obama's smile away. Putin's firm grip declared who's top dog in this world.
And this wasn't in the Opinions section!
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I'm sorry; I tried to follow your advice by reading the Pravda (English version; I can't read Russian), but I couldn't keep a straight face:
(...) Obama nervously looked over his notes as Putin spoke clearly from his memory and intelligence. At meetings end Obama then went on to try and slap a handshake. It was met with President Putin's stone hand which withered Obama's smile away. Putin's firm grip declared who's top dog in this world.
And this wasn't in the Opinions section!
Putin is a well know fitness freak, I could imagine him crushing pen-pushing Obama's hand just to make a point. The rest sounds like a mix of patriotism and bad translation.
Re:He is not entering Russia. (Score:5, Informative)
Pravda is about equivalent to The Enquirer. Its a tabloid, and its quite funny, but its not journalism.
Re:He is not entering Russia. (Score:5, Informative)
On CNN on the other hand I only hear short stories about snowden and wether or not he can be extradited. There was ZERO information about the real issue: the government collecting all the data of all the US citicens all the time.
So this time rt.com seems to be the more complete source of information and CNN seems to be biased or at least not giving a full report and critical report. However i'm sure those roles are reversed when there is some big scandal in russia.
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Very few people can speak without notes or a teleprompter. Why is Obama a special case?
Very few? Remind yourself that teleprompters are a recent invention and most public speakers throughout history have spoken without them. Geez. Talk about not being able to think outside your decade.
Notes != teleprompter (Score:3, Insightful)
I took a speech class in high school. Take that for what its worth.
We were taught to use note cards, and the note cards were only for writing an outline of your speech with maybe a reminder to touch on some important points as you progress in your speech. Anyone who tried to write their entire speech into the note cards had significant points deducted from their grade.
The purpose of a teleprompter is not to outline a person's monologue, it is to spoon-feed it to them verbatim. Go watch a nightly newscast if
Re:He is not entering Russia. (Score:4, Insightful)
Never heard of Pravda.
Are you for real?
Seriously, there are people who know how to read and write who haven't heard of Pravda? That's like saying you haven't heard of The Times, Der Spiegel and Le Monde. The mind boggles.
Anyhow, the GP is ignorant too (although not to this astonishing degree), not appearing to know the difference between Pravda and Komsomolskaya Pravda - in these days, two very different publications. The latter having gone through the local equivalent of Murdoch and tabloidism. It's more like Bild Zeitung or The Sun than a newspaper for actual news.
Re:He is not entering Russia. (Score:4, Informative)
How you know your country is fucked (Score:5, Insightful)
Two words, my friend. "Secret laws".
Actually, the words "Secret Courts" (Score:4, Insightful)
And "Secret Judges" Seem a lot scarier. I thought the whole point of holding a "court" was publicly finding the truth.
The fact that people whose job it is to "know history" and to "know better" set these up is just icing on a very scary cake.
Re:He is not entering Russia. (Score:5, Insightful)
The US and all its NSA bullshit isn't quite comparable to the threat of death for speaking out, if so all of the reporters who've covered Snowden would be fearing for their lives.
Not true, all the reporters who reported that he was doing the right thing would be fearing for their lives. Most are reporting things like "I'm sure the guy had an overactive Mother Teresa gene and thought he was going to go out and save America from Americans, but in reality he was very foolish," -CNN
Russian and the US have very different methods but both ensure the free press toe the official line.
Re:He is not entering Russia. (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly, the initial reporters that were talking about him being a "true american hero" all have completely shut up and some have retracted their statements quickly.
Real journalism in the USA has been dead for a very long time. You do what you are told and report as expected.
Re:He is not entering Russia. (Score:5, Insightful)
I am going to call Bullshit here! For starters I am not going to be hiding behind an anonymous coward. Secondly I don't hate Americans, I rather like Americans. I like the American ideals and how people want to do things. What I dislike are parts of the American government.
Now to get to the scoop. You don't have a threat of death for speaking out? Really, how about we ask this fellow:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/18/AR2006051802107.html [washingtonpost.com]
""Everyone knows that Mr. al-Masri was a mistaken victim of the rendition program. He is now a victim of the misuse of the state-secrets privilege." "
So the CIA did an oopsie, hurt this fellow, detained him, and tortured him. They did this by "accident" and when this guy asks for his rights the American government says, "oopsie no can do, state secret you know." Do you know which country does this? Oh yeah RUSSIA! While you might say at least this guy is alive, well how about those that are not alive? Do we hear their story?
Again I am not critiquing Americans and America as I have many American friends, have lived there and like it there. What I am critiquing is that there are parts of the American government that since 9/11 have gotten a blank cheque to do whatever they feel is right regardless of the law. America as an ideal stands for freedom, justice and being able to pursue without being persecuted. This is a good thing, and something that all humanity should strive for. But these other programs are just overreaching IMO.
Re:He is not entering Russia. (Score:5, Insightful)
Your main mistake is assuming that there are any 'good guys' at all. There are not. All countries act to one degree or another to further their own interests. The fiction that there are 'good' and 'bad' countries is just that, a fiction.
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Yeah, and Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore vegetarians are genocidal maniacs!
Re:He is not entering Russia. (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, and Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore vegetarians are vegecidal maniacs!
FTFY
Re:He is not entering Russia. (Score:5, Insightful)
the 80s and early 90s every european kid wanted to be american.
No we didn't.
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ehhh ok not you. Agreed... However, the remainder yeah! Seriously the 80's and early 90's were very different. Here is a telling stat, in Germany George W Bush is more popular than Obama! Lest I remind you, Bush was not popular! Sorta says it all. The last president that did a good job for America in terms of the world view was Clinton.
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The US has 100% of the seats in parliament reserved for one party. I think you're confusion is over the fact that that party goes by two different names.
Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US. (Score:5, Insightful)
While modded as funny this is tragic that the US government is spying wholesale on it's own citizens, breaking the spirit of the Constitution to the extent that employees of the government feel the need to "blow the whistle" and expose those activities. Then those whistle blowers have to seek asylum in country's that have been known to engage in wholesale repression of anti-government dissent by the citizens of those country's.
There is just something so wrong about all of this and on so many levels.
Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US. (Score:5, Insightful)
and yet, we'll continue to lie to our kids at school when we teach them about our 'constitution' and how we have the high moral ground on all the issues and that the US is the most free country in the world.
I wonder, at what age, do the kids see thru the bullshit and realize they are being lied to 180degrees ?
when I was growing up (70's), 'the red commies' were the ones that did the shit WE are now doing. we laughed at them for being so non-free.
I'm not doing a lot of laughing these days, however. ;(
I'M ASHAMED OF MY COUNTRY.
our government has stopped representing the will of the american people. you can blame us for not rising up and overthrowing them, but given that they are the most powerful government in the history of the world, its not an easy task to reign in the corruption and restore normal law and order again.
pity us for having the american dream ruined before our very eyes. realize that we were once a great nation, but sadly, I cannot say we are a great nation anymore. no one in the US government will say they are sorry, so I'll say it for them. not that it matters, as I am a total nobody, but I am sorry that we have lost our way and turned to the dark side. I am very very sorry and I want the world to know that the majority of *thinking* americans do not approve of this bullshit spying and data-grab.
Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US. (Score:4, Insightful)
and yet, we'll continue to lie to our kids at school when we teach them about our 'constitution' and how we have the high moral ground on all the issues and that the US is the most free country in the world.
We'll continue the "lie" in the hopes that our children will take up the mantle and fight for freedom from domestic spying and all the other Constitutional abuses that we have permitted to creep into our lives. Since us adults have utterly failed at the job.
Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US. (Score:4, Insightful)
when I was growing up (70's), 'the red commies' were the ones that did the shit WE are now doing.
Erm... You might want to look into COINTELPRO [wikipedia.org]. The US was doing this back then as well, just not as efficient.
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and yet, we'll continue to lie to our kids at school
The American school system, not to mention our media saturated culture, is chock full of lies from day one. That's part of the education, learning to separate the nuggets of truth from the thicket of lies by thinking for oneself.
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All countries do the same things when it comes to foreign relations, especially espionage and things like that. It's a game that people in the know play behind the scenes and not even elected leaders are always privy to what's going on. It is ridiculous to say you are ashamed of the USA because it is one of the players (which it has to be).
As someone who was born in a communist country but thankfully moved early to the USA, saying that we are doing the same stuff that Communists were doing in the 70s is an
Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US. (Score:4, Interesting)
In the 70s, over 3/4 of the people in the world lived under dictatorships and today, only 40 years later, 90% of the people live in democracies. Who do you think had the greatest role to play in bringing about that enormous change for the better? Russians, or the Chinese, or the Europeans, where in the 70s one half of the countries were Communist dictatorships and even in the West at least three countries (Spain, Portugal and Greece) were Fascist dictatorships? How did it happen? Just naturally, for the first time in the history of the world, countries all over the world decided to become democracies?
Are you saying that the US covert agencies did it by overthrowing those dicatorships?
Unfortunately they overthrew a few democratically elected governments too, and gave us dictatorships in their place. Much more in the Western hemisphere, eg Haiti, Argentina, Chile. The Reagan era was difficult for a lot of people.
You have the convert's enthusiasm. Those of us who were born in the US and had to grow up suffering with its flaws see it differently. For example up until about 1968 black people were still being killed for trying to vote in the South, and they're still not doing that well. If you were black, you'd be a lot better off in the Communist bloc in the 1970s. Your children would certainly get a better education.
We've had a fight between the rich oligarchs in this country who run everything, and the working people who are trying to have a democracy instead. Unfortunately the oligarchs seem to be winning, as Paul Krugman documents. There's as much inequality and lack of social mobility in the US as in Brazil. This will still be a wealthy, powerful country for a while, but the Hunt brothers and their crowd run it, and they may well decide to destroy it. How many Iraq wars are they going to come up with?
Germany was also the greatest major country in the world, in the 1920s and 1930s. We still use their industrial techniques and medical discoveries. So these things can fall aparat fast.
Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US. (Score:4, Informative)
For example up until about 1968 black people were still being killed for trying to vote in the South, and they're still not doing that well. If you were black, you'd be a lot better off in the Communist bloc in the 1970s.
Really, a black person would show up to vote in 1968 and federal secret police would shove them in the back of a van and take them to a secret prison, or to an execution site where they would put a bullet in the back of their head without a trial?
Yes, that happened quite a bit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_civil_rights_workers'_murders [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton [wikipedia.org]
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I'M ASHAMED OF MY COUNTRY.
I love my country. I love our heritage, and the spirit of the people who are giving healthy, skeptical attention to its direction.
I understand that many of We The People are, by virtue of the flaws that make us human, unaware of the problems or the threat they pose. They do not make me ashamed; it is the nature of humanity that not everyone will see the same problems at the same time. When a problem first arises, nobody knows about it, and gradually the awareness spreads. We are in
Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US. (Score:5, Interesting)
While modded as funny this is tragic that the US government is spying wholesale on it's own citizens, breaking the spirit of the Constitution to the extent that employees of the government feel the need to "blow the whistle" and expose those activities. Then those whistle blowers have to seek asylum in country's that have been known to engage in wholesale repression of anti-government dissent by the citizens of those country's.
I suppose now's a bad time to point out that Hong Kong is technically 'China' now. So he's fled from this country to two countries known for 'repression'. Which I gotta wonder about... has the United States become worse than everyone they claim they're better than? Iran, Afghanistan, Russia, China, North Korea... the list goes on... and none of them are building dozens of massive data centers for the sole purpose of spying wholesale on its own citizens.
Where's the UN condemnation and resolutions about 'human rights' when you need them? Where's the international inspectors for our "free" elections? We've had two major elections now with clear and well-publicized failures and many allegations of voting irregularities. Oh right... forgot. We're "permanent" members of the human rights council. We could be raping our citizens publicly before chopping them up piece by piece on national TV and we'd still have a seat. -_-
Show me your sources, (Score:3)
Iran, Afghanistan, Russia, China, North Korea... the list goes on... and none of them are building dozens of massive data centers for the sole purpose of spying wholesale on its own citizens.
How can you possibly know that what you saying is true or false?
Not that you need the high-tech data center if your people have no contact with the outside world.
You won't find people in North Korea checking Facebook or Twitter for the latest updates on the tense situation created by its leader, Kim Jong Un. That's because the nation of 24 million is largely shut out from the Internet. Few outside the government and military have ever been online.
''In North Korea, we don't see evidence that much of anyone has access,'' Jim Cowie, chief technology officer and co-founder of Renesys, which does global Internet measurement, told NBC News.
''You don't see banks or factories or universities attached to the Internet,'' he said. ''In North Korea, Internet is extremely limited. They don't have those resources. There's basically one service provider and that is state-controlled.''
The country's Internet access physically comes through from China, he said, supplemented ''sometimes'' by a satellite provider.
So much so that North Korea was named one of 12 ''enemies'' of the Internet last year by Reporters Without Borders, which monitors censorship globally. ''We still consider North Korea as an enemy of the Internet,'' Delphine Hagland, the group's director in Washington, D.C., told NBC News. Other countries making that list included China, Iran, Syria and Vietnam.
There aren't many other sources of information available in North Korea, which according to the CIA World Factbook, has ''no independent media,'' with ''radios and TVs ... pre-tuned to government stations.''
North Korea's Internet? What Internet? For most, online access doesn't exist [nbcnews.com]
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I'm happy that he released those documents, but there is no question that he did break the law.
What law?
He is being charged with espionage, which is a legitimate charge given his actions.
Huh? Wasn't the government just saying that everything Snowden said was a lie? If he is making false claims that is not espionage. At worst it might be defamation, but it isn't espionage.
He should be arrested. He should go to trial, and if the American people believe strongly that what he did was right, we should protest and petition for his pardon.
The American people may not trust their government to act in a just manner given their past history. Justice may be better served by Snowden's exile. That alone seems like more than enough punishment for his so called crime of letting the American people know the truth about what our own government is doing to us.
Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US. (Score:5, Insightful)
There is just something so wrong about all of this and on so many levels.
Yes. The US has a whistleblower law that's ostensibly to protect them, yet this administration has attacked more whistleblowers than any other. Thomas Drake was vindicated but after that Snowden wasn't comfortable relying on a whistleblower law that's being ignored. Now they're going after Snowden charging him with espionage when Snowden showed the NSA has been spying on Chinese civilians' communications.
First Orwell's "1984", now Kafka's "The Trial". What's next, Carrol's "Through The Looking Glass (Alice in Wonderland)"? Snowden's protectors so far are PRC, Russia, and Cuba. I feel a need to drag in "Rip van Winkle" here for some reason.
Is there some kind of undiagnosed "Drop Dead Simplemindedness Disease" running rampant through the USA official circles these days? John Dean's "Cancer on the presidency" comes to mind.
Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US. (Score:4, Insightful)
A "whistleblower" is someone who exposes illegal behavior or misconduct, and the "whistleblower law" is meant to protect him from reprisal. The problem here is that everything Snowden has exposed would appear to have the sanction of US law.
Obviously it's wrong, by most people's commonsense idea of what their rights are, and his act is a form of protest. To pardon him or exculpate him would, under normal rules, be a mistake, because going to jail for breaking an immoral law is an intrinsic aspect of civil disobedience -- Thoreau and MLK went to jail, their incarceration simply became a demonstration of the manifest immorality of the law.
A problem going forward is that the government doesn't seem satisfied to merely jail someone anymore, it has to hold them for months or years without indictment, as in the case of Bradley Manning. I can't tell yet if holding someone like Manning incognito, without charge for months or years, actually helps or hurts the protestor's case.
(I'd say on balance it seems to help, so far; if they'd simply arrested him, indicted him and convicted him in the old-fashioned way, nobody would be talking about him anymore.)
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The US has a whistleblower law that's ostensibly to protect them, yet this administration has attacked more whistleblowers than any other.
A "whistleblower" is someone who exposes illegal behavior or misconduct, and the "whistleblower law" is meant to protect him from reprisal. The problem here is that everything Snowden has exposed would appear to have the sanction of US law.
The problem here is Congress has written into law things it had no right to do as defined by the US' Constitution (Fourth Amendment [wikipedia.org]): ... which guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, along with requiring any warrant to be judicially sanctioned and supported by probable cause (emphasis mine). What probable cause allows the courts to believe *everyone in the world* is a valid suspect in the ongoing War On Terrorism? That's just utter rampant paranoia. Who put nutcases like that in charge?!?
Tho
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Thoreau and MLK went to jail, their incarceration simply became a demonstration of the manifest immorality of the law.
And you're saying that's a good thing. The Indians who were fighting the American settlers who were taking their land should have surrendered and gotten hung. The French resistance fighters should have surrendered to the Nazis and gotten shot.
If you had actually gone to jail over something, I might believe you.
Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US. (Score:4, Insightful)
I knew people who went down to participate in the Civil Rights movement in the South during the 1960s. Many of them also participated in the movement against the war in Vietnam. I went on a couple of demonstrations with them myself.
I never heard of an official rule book on civil disobedience. They did what they thought was effective. For Ghandi and MLK, doing things publicly and getting arrested worked. In other situations they didn't.
A lot of people didn't think it would do any good to refuse to be drafted, and go to jail for 10 years. I don't either. They went to Canada instead.
Daniel Ellsburg did a lot to end the Vietnam war. He did it secretly and didn't want to get arrested. If he were being prosecuted under today's rules, he might have gone to jail for 10 or 20 years. What's the point of that? Richard Nixon didn't go to jail.
Jail is something the government does to make you less effective. I'd rather be effective. There were a few moments in history when you could get valuable publicity for your cause by going to jail. Today isn't one of those moments.
If you want to engage in civil disobedience, reveal your lawbreaking and go to jail, be my guest. Other people want to fight injustice and stay out of jail. That's their decision.
The enemy of your enemy is your friend .... (Score:4, Insightful)
I already see the White House big-shots trying to spin Snowden as a fraud, since he's running away for refuge in nations that don't believe in any of what he claims to be fighting for.
But hey, he's just being practical at this point. As he said himself in an interview, when a major world power decides they're out to get you, they'll eventually succeed if they try hard enough. That doesn't mean it's smart to remain a sitting duck and make yourself easy to snuff out -- which is exactly what staying in the U.S. would do.
It doesn't really matter where in the world he chooses to travel. The media spin, the lies, and the propaganda won't change or come at a reduced rate. The irony of him being temporarily safer in nations like China than here just further illustrates how deep the problem goes -- and buys Snowden some more time to argue for his side of the case in the press.
I mean, how can our country's leaders even keep a straight face when declaring Snowden should come back here voluntarily to get his day in court? Everything they've done regarding the spying is handled by a SECRET court -- so there's no way he'd have a fair trial. Essentially, they'd screw him over just as badly as nations like China do all the time to the people opposing their own governments.
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Hong Kong isn't engaged in 'wholesale repression of anti-government dissent', it's very free and people openly protest again the Chinese government.
Russian and Cuba, I really don't know.
Re:Going to Russia for safety from the US. (Score:5, Informative)
Russia isn't the same old USSR any more.
Take what you hear through western media with a pinch of salt - I highly recommend reading/viewing RT [rt.com] as well as western media to get both perspectives. The different spin each side give the same story is interesting and you can bet the truth is maybe there somewhere in the middle.
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Listening to two different liars does not get you closer to the truth.
Both points and all points in-between are probably far away from anything resembling truth.
I like these quotes, I wish I said them. I feel the same way about the two party system here in America. A representative government only works when the voting populace has a clear understanding of reality. The fact that both sides misrepresent reality to such an astonishing degree makes it virtually impossible to determine what the truth is. This likely explains why things are so screwed up in this country and why the same assholes keep getting reelected.
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Not exactly. The Russians are arming a mass murdering dicatator, the Americans are arming the allies of al-Qaeda. The responsible thing would be to do neither.
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This makes those 'In Soviet Russia' jokes somewhat more believable...
In Corporatocratic USA, NSA Whistleblows you!
"News" that matters? (Score:5, Insightful)
By the time this was posted on slashdot, he hadn't just left Hong Kong, but landed in Moscow.
DICE: When copying news in development, please make sure you update it as needed before posting. This worked better before. Not well, but it has become worse.
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> I'd rather not know where he is.
You'd just be undermining his chosen strategy for minimizing the chance he'll "be disappeared". Frankly, what he wants is for all of us to know where he is, all the time.
Arrived in Moscow...left with Venezuelan diplomat (Score:3, Informative)
According to Interfax.
God speed. Enjoy the hot Venezuelan women. There is no justice for you in the US...not anymore.
How will NSA ever find him? (Score:3)
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He's going to DisneyWorld
How strange. (Score:4, Interesting)
Times have sure changed.
Re:How strange. (Score:4, Informative)
How strange it is that Russia has become the bastion of human rights and the right to expose corruption.
I don't know what news you have been ready but this is hardly the case. The Russian government cracks down hard on anyone who does anything to embarrass it. If Snodew was a Russion who had leaked KGB info they'd go every bit as hard on him as are government has; and then not even consider stopping there.
No they see this as an opportunity to score diplomatic leverage of some kind, or maybe its just an ego thing for Putin to "Stick it to the man" who knows; in any case this is just an enemy of my enemy is a friend situation, nothing especially virtuous on the part of the Russians. Rainbows and moon beams have not suddenly replaced the usual shit from Vladamir's ass.
Re:How strange. (Score:4, Informative)
No, you fools! Russia has nothing to do with this. He's just IN TRANSIT. He is just wandering through an airport. In the civilized world, that is international territory for the purposes of free transit. He's not 'visiting' Russia.
Re:How strange. (Score:5, Informative)
How strange it is that Russia has become the bastion of human rights and the right to expose corruption.
Tell that to Pussy Riot. I'm sure that will comfort them while they are either imprisoned in Russia or living elsewhere to avoid prosecution in Russia.
Re:How strange. (Score:4, Insightful)
I recommend actually looking hard and who you're defending. Pussy riot girls are epic level attention whores (literally) who have shot orgy porn while pregnant to "protest" the same issue a couple of years ago, among other similar stunts (you'll find photos of the orgy if you look, video is harder to come by).
No one cared about them until they busted into church and violated right to freedom of practicing religion without idiots disturbing them in their church. Rather strange, if they were nailed for political reasons rather then their actual stated crime, surely they would have been nailed much earlier, like when they were shooting the preggo porn orgy against Putin?
There are MANY groups of people in Russia who are worth defending for protecting rights of people. Pussy riot is not one of such groups. You should instead consider people who are trying to dig into human right abuses in Chechnya, journalists who investigate shady regional and federal ties and corruption and so on.
But instead, we (Westerners) are wasting our energy and efforts on a bunch of dumb attention whores who's main accomplishment is breaking into the church and interrupting orthodox service with risque acts. And at the same time, persecution people who are actually investigating real issues goes unnoticed.
Re:How strange. (Score:4, Insightful)
But instead, we (Westerners) are wasting our energy and efforts on a bunch of dumb attention whores who's main accomplishment is breaking into the church and interrupting orthodox service with risque acts. And at the same time, persecution people who are actually investigating real issues goes unnoticed.
So it's ok to persecute people because they are attention whores? The US puts up with attention whores (WBC), because they still have 1st Amendment rights. Russia is not much better now than it was when it was part of the USSR, and Putin is not so slowly and definitely surely taking them back that way. Calling Russia a "bastion of human rights" like the GP did is like calling Somalia a bastion of gun control.
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They wouldn't get 2 years in prison for doing that kind of thing in US, or any other sane country.
Indeed, some guys did something very similar in Finland shortly after. IIRC they ended up doing some community service.
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Wait, wait? How is Russia "a bastion of human rights"? Ever tried being supporting an opposition party there?
And what does this have to do with human rights? A US Government employee broke the law and shared information he wasn't supposed to. And now he's an attention whore traveling to world to keep his name in the news. If he really cared that it was "the right thing to do" he would turned himself in the day he released to keep the storm on PRISIM, not himself.
final destination (Score:5, Insightful)
He can spend up to 3 months in Cuba on a tourist visa. Obviously the Cuban government isn't going to extradite him and Cubana won't be sending the US any flight lists. This point is perhaps the most important. Cuba is a place where Snowdon can break the paper trail. He can stay anywhere from 1 to 90 days there and then procede to his final destination.
The only risk to this strategy is that the Cuban government may want to ask him a few questions about the NSA before allowing him to leave. Assuming the Cuban government allows him to leave I would guess Ecuador. It's obviously willing to protect whistle blowers and Assange could have discussed the matter directly with officials at his embassy. According to this list [wikipedia.org] Ecuador does have an extradition treaty with the US though, but maybe it is just for murders and other violent crime. I think Ecuador and Venezuela are both nice places to live. So either way he's good as long as he has money. Hopefully he moved all of his funds out of US banks before blowing his whistle. Otherwise freezing his funds will be one of the first things the US LEO thugs will do.
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Others speculate that he's only going to Moscow in transit to Iceland (which has offered him asylum) or some other place.
Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba (Score:4, Informative)
That, of course, could all be misdirection.
Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba (Score:5, Informative)
That's what I've heard reported elsewhere as well. But just now I saw that the Norwegian Pirate Party claims he's en route to Oslo [twitter.com].
Rough translation of the tweet: "#Snowden has landed in Moscow on the way to Oslo, Gardermoen. The Pirate Party will mobilize support in Oslo when he arrives."
No idea if that's legit.
Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba (Score:5, Interesting)
It's probably a decoy. I highly doubt he's heading for a NATO country.
Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba (Score:5, Funny)
Who is John Galt?
Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba (Score:4, Insightful)
I support what he has done, and appreciate him informing American citizens to the constant surveillance that we at under.
But Venezuela? I want him to escape prosecution. I do not want him to enable a despotic government to appear to be free. Ironically Snowden will be "free" in Venezuela, but the Venezuelan people are not.
I was really hoping he'd end up in Iceland.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes I would hope he would end up in a mostly democratic country as well. It would be great to see people in Iceland rise up against international espionage of the color that the NSA is engaged in.
But after the US almost got the Turkish government to amend there constitution to use Turkish bases in the Iraq war, I realized how the US has become an agent against democracy. They used all kinds of economic and military incentives that almost brought Turkey to amend its constitution against the sentiment of th
Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba (Score:4, Insightful)
But Venezuela? I want him to escape prosecution. I do not want him to enable a despotic government to appear to be free.
The problem with the non-despotic governments is that my government keeps threatening them if they don't carry our despotic water.
Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba (Score:5, Informative)
As a Venezuelan, I can tell you that we are not governed by a despotic government. Scream at me if you like but we just had an election after the other president we had died, people were kind of undecided between two candidates that represented two very different political ideologies. One of them won and while people might feel angry that does not give you the right to say that is despotic. In fact, I believe that is how true democracy should work. Who says that I cannot vote for a socialist government in a democracy? If anything, I think Venezuelans have been enjoying a lot of political freedoms in that regard with a couple of issues. A country is not only composed of rich people and corporations dictating what is good for everybody else.
Having said that, the current Venezuelan government has made some colossal mistakes regarding currency exchange controls that is affecting all the industry. They make Chavez look like Adam Smith in a way.
Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba (Score:5, Interesting)
I actually have a successful business in Venezuela and I'm not employed or paid by the government.
When they nationalized assets from companies they did pay compensation. So far they regained control of two companies that used to be state companies, like a big steel mill and the state telephone and internet company. They also took control of big corporations that controlled grain distribution for farmers and decided who they would finance (read people with big money). They nationalized failed banks instead of giving bailout money to corrupt bankers, and also started splitting farm land from big landowners (again by giving them money) so that the land could become more productive.
I have to say that a lot of these programs were actually pretty good, especially when it comes to banks and the state phone company, which keeps the cheapest cell phone rates and best internet service throughout the country. But on some other fronts they created more problems than they solved. When they nationalized cement factories because they were exporting a lot of the production instead of selling it locally, they replaced capitalist corruption with government inefficiency, since when they took it they created a major mess on the cement supply. Nowadays is better but in general I failed to see nationalizations as a bad thing. If it is used selectively it can actually be very good.
The firearms issue in Venezuela is not a despotic one either. In my case I actually prefer to be allowed to carry firearms even if I don't own one myself, but I can totally see where they are coming from. Venezuela is ridden with violence, and it's not only firearms, it's just easier for people to start hitting or screaming at each other for something they don't agree with here than in other countries I have seen. And the fact that I know one person that got shot and another one that was beaten to a pulp because some thugs were trying to get ahold of their guns really makes it safer for you not to own guns here. The guy who was shot had to carry a colostomy bag for months. Besides, the law is being discussed by a congress that is composed of chavistas and opposition alike.
And for the government taking money from the rich, I would really like to see where you got that from? I haven't seen that happening even once.
I'm sorry that you think that everybody that supports the government here is receiving grants and cannot be an independent thinker. But after being burned by extreme capitalism before Chavez came to power, it is hard for me to support the other guys. It's hard for you to understand what we went through but I just wrote to let you know that it's not only about poor people or communists or whatnot. More about rights and trying to enjoy a little bit more equality, which I believe is more visibly in the US than it ever was in Venezuela.
Re: Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba (Score:4, Interesting)
I was really hoping he'd end up in Iceland.
I was really hoping that this whole ridiculous mess would wind up with him living freely as a hero in Hawaii. There's still time for that to happen. Whether it will is up to you, USA. Step up to the plate.
Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba (Score:4, Interesting)
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May be we should have a trial and find out?
Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba (Score:5, Informative)
Whether you think what he did was good aside, he's absolutely guilty of distributing confidential information and has admitted it.
He has admitted to violating a contract, but contracts are superseded by the laws of the land. He is accused of treason, for which he has not admitted to nor has what he admitted to indicate treason. What he has admitted to is that he observed the government breaking the law.
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I don't think he has been formally accused [slashdot.org] of 'treason' - which has a very, very narrow definition in the US. He's been accused of 'espionage' which is different.
Re:Allegedly Venezuela By Way of Cuba (Score:5, Informative)
the problem is, intent is a major part of espionage, and what is on the table so far, has no indication of that.
Nixon's DoJ filed espionage charges against Ellsberg too. Obama and Nixon are turning out to have very similar governance styles. Except Nixon only filed one Espionage Act charge against leaker(s) - Obama is up to seven. Before Obama the total stood at three.
Re:BBC and NYT confirm this news (Score:5, Interesting)
Others speculate that he's only going to Moscow in transit to Iceland (which has offered him asylum) or some other place.
AFAIK Iceland has not offered him asylum. The Icelanders just changed to a fiercely right wing government which has already refused to consider asylum unless Snowden actually lands in Reykjavik and hands in an asylum request in person. That does not exactly indicate much enthusiasm for pissing off Obama and the US Republicans. I'd say Snowden is unlikely to receive much sympathy with the current Icelandic Govt. unless the Icelandic population gets together and to forces them to reconsider by protesting or gathering enough names on a petition. Given the size of the country and the close knit nature of Icelandic society it is actually surprisingly easy to get up to 25-30% of the electorate to sign such a petition if you can stir up enough support.
Re:BBC and NYT confirm this news (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, lets get this idea of In Transit [wikitravel.org] in front of your Average American. In most countries, you can land at an airport and 'not be in the country' - you are in transit. You don't have to show your passport, you don't need a Visa, you don't need much except directions to the next flight.
In the current Soviet States of America, you may need all of those things and some additional paperwork.
The upshot is that Snowden is likely just connecting to somewhere else without the annoying hassles he would if he tried it in the US. Russia isn't necessarily the good guys, it's just that the US is turning out to be the obese 1600 pound poorly trained gorilla.
Sic Transit Gloria Mundi.
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Hong Kong SAR press release on Edward Snowden (Score:3)
Re:Run coward run!!!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Run coward run!!!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
uhh, i think the fact that he hasn't been caught yet (and disappeared) suggests he knew exactly how bad the backlash would be. he knew enough that he could plan for it.
he did not take the path of least resistance here. if he were a coward, he wouldn't have leaked the info in the first place. knowing what he knew, and not doing anything about it, is probably what he saw as cowardly.
Re:Run coward run!!!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Its the folks still working at NSA who should be rotting in jail. What they have been doing is illegal. Personally I think anyone still there should be treated as a collaborator. We didn't accept "just following orders" as an excuse after WWII, it would be good for the nation if we locked away everyone at NSA doing anything above sweeping the floors.
Re:Run coward run!!!!! (Score:4, Interesting)
I totally agree.. and the old "we were just following orders" didn't work in Nurnberg and it shouldn't work here either.. ANYbody with half a brain AND who has READ the Constitution should KNOW that what they are doing is BLATANTLY unconstitutional.. I don't give a crap what the pigshit running these agencies say, its UNconstitutional..
Re:Run coward run!!!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
"We were just following orders" only fails if you lose the war.
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I hope you discover that you are wrong. That anyone who exposes the misdeeds of governments is a hero. And that rather than wishing them to be punished, that they should be rewarded. We should encourage people to step forward and denounce wrong doing, not punish them.
You are one of the worst sort of enablers, you claim to care about the misdeeds, but you still wish to punish those who expose them.
Re:Run coward run!!!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Frankly, Sparky.. I think he's a flippin' national hero, on a par with many of the heros of the first American revolution, and I'm betting theres a LOT of us out here who think this.... He knew his life was gonna change dramatically and he'd likely be on the run from the pigshit running this country now, YET he blew the whistle on the blatantly UNconstitutional crap these three-letter fiefdoms were perpetrating on the American people.. Sure, I'll grant you that he violated a bunch of laws/rules/regulations, BUT he followed the only really important law.. the Constitution, the one mentioned in the oath that government workers take, where they swear to "protect and defend the Constitution from enemies foreign and domestic..." He was defending it from the pigshit poseurs who are trying to shred the Constitution at every turn.. So you can call me and the rest of us who think he's a hero a moron, but we know we're the people the founding fathers had in mind, and YOU are the moron, if I was into ad hominim attacks, which I try to avoid.. But since YOU started it, I'm gonna play along.. You and your ilk are part of the problem with America today... YOU are the moron...
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Re:He is not a whistleblower (Score:5, Insightful)
You are confused. Just because Congress authorized it doesn't make it legal. Coming to mind quickly is the McCain Feingold campaign finance reform (authorized by Congress), which has come to the Supreme Court three times and every time been ruled unconstitutional, hence illegal. The NSA spying is illegal according to the 4th amendment no matter what Congress says. If they don't like it, the way to make it legal is pass an amendment to repeal the 4th amendment, whcih they know won't be possible.
Snoden exposed illegal activity by the NSA, also exposing Congress "authroizing" illegal activity without worrying about consequences because they kept it hidden from the public. So in addition to exposing the illegal activity, he also exposed the illegal cover-up of the illegal activity.
He is the definition of a whistleblower, also showing that there are no whistleblower protections for citizens in the USA.
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Thank's for quoting the 4th Amendment! If you read it carefully, it says person's house, papers and effects are only subject to "unreasonable" searches when a warrant has been requested and authorized. Going back about 45 years to the Katz decision, the courts have said a search is unreasonable when it violates a person's "reasonable expectation of privacy". Anything outside of that that "reasonable" expectation of privacy is fair game for the government without a court approved warrant. Anything within, th
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"Trust of his country?" Sorry, but not. The government is NOT the country. And the last time the government acted in the interests of the majority of this country was WELL before I was born. I was pretty happy believing the US government was the good guys -- I'm a good guy and so it's not hard to extend that belief to the government that, I believed, represents me. They don't. They endanger us all. There are places in this world I can't go because of the symbols associated with my identity material.
Re:He is not a whistleblower (Score:5, Informative)
authorized by and deemed legal by Congress and the court system
That's not entirely true. The court system has not ruled one way or another whether the secret programs are legal. The Supreme Court has so far refused to hear cases brought against the NSA's spying program because the defendands have not been able to prove that their constituional rights were violated by these programs (due to their secret nature) but with Snowden's leaks they can now easily prove that their communications have in fact been targeted and, as a Verizon customer, the ACLU has filed a case against the NSA in federal court [aclu.org].
Thanks to Snowden the Supreme Court will likely be forced to rule on the constitutionality of these programs and if they are found uncsontitutional it matters not what laws Congress passed or Executive Orders the President issued to authorize them because those all become null and void.
16 Am Jur 2d, Sec 177 late 2d, Sec 256:
The general misconception is that any statute passed by legislators bearing the appearance of law constitutes the law of the land. The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and any statute, to be valid, must be In agreement. It is impossible for both the Constitution and a law violating it to be valid; one must prevail. This is succinctly stated as follows:
The General rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and name of law is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose; since unconstitutionality dates from the time of it's enactment and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it. An unconstitutional law, in legal contemplation, is as inoperative as if it had never been passed. Such a statute leaves the question that it purports to settle just as it would be had the statute not been enacted.
Since an unconstitutional law is void, the general principles follow that it imposes no duties, confers no rights, creates no office, bestows no power or authority on anyone, affords no protection, and justifies no acts performed under it.....
A void act cannot be legally consistent with a valid one. An unconstitutional law cannot operate to supersede any existing valid law. Indeed, insofar as a statute runs counter to the fundamental law of the lend, it is superseded thereby.
No one Is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it.
Re:He is not a whistleblower (Score:4, Interesting)
While I appreciate your honest opinion, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that very little of this can be categorized into "black" or "white"; at least not yet. I not only respectfully disagree with the absolute premise that you offer, I also disagree with the absolute premise taken up by most of those who have replied to you. There are many questions that need to be answered before these kind of conclusions can be drawn.
It is clear that Snowden did violate his confidentiality agreement - there is no arguing this. He broke the law, and I'm not going to dispute it. The legality of the program at-large, however, has not been established. You are correct that the program was authorized by Congress. Suggesting that the program was deemed legal by the court system is dubious, at best. The existence of FISA courts, where federal judges review and grant surveillance warrants does not qualify as judicial review and does very little to validate that the program meets constitutional standards. If it is established that the program violated the constitution (the highest law of the land), it will be the government who violated the law, and covered it under a veil of secrecy. If this is the case, it is a serious violation of the trust of the American people; and whether or not it prevent terrorist attacks is irrelevant, as the ends don't justify the means (IMO). The government can't have it both ways - holding citizens accountable for following the law when it doesn't adhere to its own laws.
I'm also curious about you meant by Snowden doing this for his own gain. What did he have to gain? Notoriety? It seems to me that he had more to lose than he had to gain...but then again, I do not understand the desire for notoriety, and would prefer to avoid the public eye. Either way, until the program is understood and scrutinized, I don't think that it's fair to categorize Snowden is a whistle-blowing patriot or a traitor (yet).
I hope that we do the right thing here and analyze the program; asking the necessary questions to determine what is constitutionally acceptable. Further, I hope that my fellow Americans think long and hard about the implications of programs like this. I'm a bit uncomfortable with the government warehousing massive amounts of data about its citizens, even if mining it takes a warrant from a secret court. I understand the argument that companies are already doing this (to an extent)...but what differentiates them from our government is that they don't have the power to incarcerate or kill people. Now, I'm afraid that our government will sweep this under the rug, preventing any honest dialog in the name of national security. I honestly believe that even if this program is legitimate and legal, the ability to secretly monitor Americans will eventually be abused; if not by this government/administration, it will be by another one.
Re:He is not a whistleblower (Score:4, Insightful)
I love it when I get modded "Troll" for speaking the truth. How about you refute any part of what I posted?
I grant my trust that somebody in the government will have the stones to do the right thing and expose law-breaking by the government, no matter how many layers of threatened criminal charges the government layers into the contract. That nobody did it before Snowden speaks volumes to how stupid and uneducated Americans really are to what their civil rights are and what their duty to their country is (the oaths all say "support and defend the constitution" not "follow all orders, legal or otherwise.") Really? Nobody in a uniform (before Bradley Manning) had the guts to say "I won't help cover it up any more." Nobody? Not one person?
Nobody is obligated to follow an illegal or unconstitutional order, and this kid did the exact right thing in exposing it. I wouldn't have trusted the US government or relied on the whistle blower statutes (as weak and ineffectual as they are) either based on the government's recent track record of prosecuting whistle blowers. His only "mistake" seems to have been attaching his name and face to it rather than simply mailing it anonymously to the Guardian.
Re:What happened to he didn't have access? (Score:4, Interesting)
What happened to them saying he didn't have any secrets, he didn't have access, and that they weren't doing that crap, they were saying it like a week ago.
Did he release the docs he had? How come I feel like there is something missing from then & now?
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/06/14/1431232/snowden-is-lying-say-house-intelligence-committee-leaders [slashdot.org]
This is what I'm talking about. What happened from this to now? And why then is our House Intelligence Committee Leaders lying?
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Yeah. When that news story broke I was thinking that by saying that they couldn't then go after him for any sort of espionage. It's only if what he says is true that he is exposing state secrets. If the things he is saying are untrue I guess they can sue him for libel, but they can't claim he is exposing their secrets. They clearly are not afraid of contradicting themselves. I guess they see themselves as so powerful that they have no need for logic.