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Edward Snowden Leaves Hong Kong 536

Posted by samzenpus
from the hit-the-road-jack dept.
hazeii writes "Ed Snowden, the U.S. whistleblower responsible for exposing the degree to which the U.S. watches its own citizens (as well as the rest of the world) is reported as having left Hong Kong for Moscow. According to the South China Morning Post, he is on a commercial flight to Russia but intriguingly it seems this is not his final destination. It's not clear whether this move is in response to the U.S. request to extradite him."
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Edward Snowden Leaves Hong Kong

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 23, 2013 @09:34AM (#44084471)

    What has the world come to?

    • by csumpi (2258986) on Sunday June 23, 2013 @10:18AM (#44084727)
      From NYT [nytimes.com]:

      "Russia’s Interfax news service, citing a “person familiar with the situation,” reported that Mr. Snowden would remain in transit at an airport in Moscow for “several hours” pending an onward flight to Cuba, and would therefore not formally cross the Russian border or be subject to detention."
    • by NormHome (99305) on Sunday June 23, 2013 @10:25AM (#44084793)

      While modded as funny this is tragic that the US government is spying wholesale on it's own citizens, breaking the spirit of the Constitution to the extent that employees of the government feel the need to "blow the whistle" and expose those activities. Then those whistle blowers have to seek asylum in country's that have been known to engage in wholesale repression of anti-government dissent by the citizens of those country's.

      There is just something so wrong about all of this and on so many levels.

      • by TheGratefulNet (143330) on Sunday June 23, 2013 @10:38AM (#44084863)

        and yet, we'll continue to lie to our kids at school when we teach them about our 'constitution' and how we have the high moral ground on all the issues and that the US is the most free country in the world.

        I wonder, at what age, do the kids see thru the bullshit and realize they are being lied to 180degrees ?

        when I was growing up (70's), 'the red commies' were the ones that did the shit WE are now doing. we laughed at them for being so non-free.

        I'm not doing a lot of laughing these days, however. ;(

        I'M ASHAMED OF MY COUNTRY.

        our government has stopped representing the will of the american people. you can blame us for not rising up and overthrowing them, but given that they are the most powerful government in the history of the world, its not an easy task to reign in the corruption and restore normal law and order again.

        pity us for having the american dream ruined before our very eyes. realize that we were once a great nation, but sadly, I cannot say we are a great nation anymore. no one in the US government will say they are sorry, so I'll say it for them. not that it matters, as I am a total nobody, but I am sorry that we have lost our way and turned to the dark side. I am very very sorry and I want the world to know that the majority of *thinking* americans do not approve of this bullshit spying and data-grab.

        • by pongo000 (97357) on Sunday June 23, 2013 @12:24PM (#44085539)

          and yet, we'll continue to lie to our kids at school when we teach them about our 'constitution' and how we have the high moral ground on all the issues and that the US is the most free country in the world.

          We'll continue the "lie" in the hopes that our children will take up the mantle and fight for freedom from domestic spying and all the other Constitutional abuses that we have permitted to creep into our lives. Since us adults have utterly failed at the job.

        • by lxs (131946) on Sunday June 23, 2013 @12:38PM (#44085633)

          when I was growing up (70's), 'the red commies' were the ones that did the shit WE are now doing.

          Erm... You might want to look into COINTELPRO [wikipedia.org]. The US was doing this back then as well, just not as efficient.

        • and yet, we'll continue to lie to our kids at school

          The American school system, not to mention our media saturated culture, is chock full of lies from day one. That's part of the education, learning to separate the nuggets of truth from the thicket of lies by thinking for oneself.

        • All countries do the same things when it comes to foreign relations, especially espionage and things like that. It's a game that people in the know play behind the scenes and not even elected leaders are always privy to what's going on. It is ridiculous to say you are ashamed of the USA because it is one of the players (which it has to be).

          As someone who was born in a communist country but thankfully moved early to the USA, saying that we are doing the same stuff that Communists were doing in the 70s is an

          • by nbauman (624611) on Sunday June 23, 2013 @04:53PM (#44087391) Homepage Journal

            In the 70s, over 3/4 of the people in the world lived under dictatorships and today, only 40 years later, 90% of the people live in democracies. Who do you think had the greatest role to play in bringing about that enormous change for the better? Russians, or the Chinese, or the Europeans, where in the 70s one half of the countries were Communist dictatorships and even in the West at least three countries (Spain, Portugal and Greece) were Fascist dictatorships? How did it happen? Just naturally, for the first time in the history of the world, countries all over the world decided to become democracies?

            Are you saying that the US covert agencies did it by overthrowing those dicatorships?

            Unfortunately they overthrew a few democratically elected governments too, and gave us dictatorships in their place. Much more in the Western hemisphere, eg Haiti, Argentina, Chile. The Reagan era was difficult for a lot of people.

            You have the convert's enthusiasm. Those of us who were born in the US and had to grow up suffering with its flaws see it differently. For example up until about 1968 black people were still being killed for trying to vote in the South, and they're still not doing that well. If you were black, you'd be a lot better off in the Communist bloc in the 1970s. Your children would certainly get a better education.

            We've had a fight between the rich oligarchs in this country who run everything, and the working people who are trying to have a democracy instead. Unfortunately the oligarchs seem to be winning, as Paul Krugman documents. There's as much inequality and lack of social mobility in the US as in Brazil. This will still be a wealthy, powerful country for a while, but the Hunt brothers and their crowd run it, and they may well decide to destroy it. How many Iraq wars are they going to come up with?

            Germany was also the greatest major country in the world, in the 1920s and 1930s. We still use their industrial techniques and medical discoveries. So these things can fall aparat fast.

        • by Bob9113 (14996)

          I'M ASHAMED OF MY COUNTRY.

          I love my country. I love our heritage, and the spirit of the people who are giving healthy, skeptical attention to its direction.

          I understand that many of We The People are, by virtue of the flaws that make us human, unaware of the problems or the threat they pose. They do not make me ashamed; it is the nature of humanity that not everyone will see the same problems at the same time. When a problem first arises, nobody knows about it, and gradually the awareness spreads. We are in

      • by girlintraining (1395911) on Sunday June 23, 2013 @11:38AM (#44085209)

        While modded as funny this is tragic that the US government is spying wholesale on it's own citizens, breaking the spirit of the Constitution to the extent that employees of the government feel the need to "blow the whistle" and expose those activities. Then those whistle blowers have to seek asylum in country's that have been known to engage in wholesale repression of anti-government dissent by the citizens of those country's.

        I suppose now's a bad time to point out that Hong Kong is technically 'China' now. So he's fled from this country to two countries known for 'repression'. Which I gotta wonder about... has the United States become worse than everyone they claim they're better than? Iran, Afghanistan, Russia, China, North Korea... the list goes on... and none of them are building dozens of massive data centers for the sole purpose of spying wholesale on its own citizens.

        Where's the UN condemnation and resolutions about 'human rights' when you need them? Where's the international inspectors for our "free" elections? We've had two major elections now with clear and well-publicized failures and many allegations of voting irregularities. Oh right... forgot. We're "permanent" members of the human rights council. We could be raping our citizens publicly before chopping them up piece by piece on national TV and we'd still have a seat. -_-

        • Iran, Afghanistan, Russia, China, North Korea... the list goes on... and none of them are building dozens of massive data centers for the sole purpose of spying wholesale on its own citizens.

          How can you possibly know that what you saying is true or false?

          Not that you need the high-tech data center if your people have no contact with the outside world.

          You won't find people in North Korea checking Facebook or Twitter for the latest updates on the tense situation created by its leader, Kim Jong Un. That's because the nation of 24 million is largely shut out from the Internet. Few outside the government and military have ever been online.

          ''In North Korea, we don't see evidence that much of anyone has access,'' Jim Cowie, chief technology officer and co-founder of Renesys, which does global Internet measurement, told NBC News.

          ''You don't see banks or factories or universities attached to the Internet,'' he said. ''In North Korea, Internet is extremely limited. They don't have those resources. There's basically one service provider and that is state-controlled.''

          The country's Internet access physically comes through from China, he said, supplemented ''sometimes'' by a satellite provider.

          So much so that North Korea was named one of 12 ''enemies'' of the Internet last year by Reporters Without Borders, which monitors censorship globally. ''We still consider North Korea as an enemy of the Internet,'' Delphine Hagland, the group's director in Washington, D.C., told NBC News. Other countries making that list included China, Iran, Syria and Vietnam.

          There aren't many other sources of information available in North Korea, which according to the CIA World Factbook, has ''no independent media,'' with ''radios and TVs ... pre-tuned to government stations.''

          North Korea's Internet? What Internet? For most, online access doesn't exist [nbcnews.com]

      • by tqk (413719) <s.keeling@mail.com> on Sunday June 23, 2013 @11:39AM (#44085211)

        There is just something so wrong about all of this and on so many levels.

        Yes. The US has a whistleblower law that's ostensibly to protect them, yet this administration has attacked more whistleblowers than any other. Thomas Drake was vindicated but after that Snowden wasn't comfortable relying on a whistleblower law that's being ignored. Now they're going after Snowden charging him with espionage when Snowden showed the NSA has been spying on Chinese civilians' communications.

        First Orwell's "1984", now Kafka's "The Trial". What's next, Carrol's "Through The Looking Glass (Alice in Wonderland)"? Snowden's protectors so far are PRC, Russia, and Cuba. I feel a need to drag in "Rip van Winkle" here for some reason.

        Is there some kind of undiagnosed "Drop Dead Simplemindedness Disease" running rampant through the USA official circles these days? John Dean's "Cancer on the presidency" comes to mind.

        • by iluvcapra (782887) on Sunday June 23, 2013 @01:42PM (#44086085)

          The US has a whistleblower law that's ostensibly to protect them, yet this administration has attacked more whistleblowers than any other.

          A "whistleblower" is someone who exposes illegal behavior or misconduct, and the "whistleblower law" is meant to protect him from reprisal. The problem here is that everything Snowden has exposed would appear to have the sanction of US law.

          Obviously it's wrong, by most people's commonsense idea of what their rights are, and his act is a form of protest. To pardon him or exculpate him would, under normal rules, be a mistake, because going to jail for breaking an immoral law is an intrinsic aspect of civil disobedience -- Thoreau and MLK went to jail, their incarceration simply became a demonstration of the manifest immorality of the law.

          A problem going forward is that the government doesn't seem satisfied to merely jail someone anymore, it has to hold them for months or years without indictment, as in the case of Bradley Manning. I can't tell yet if holding someone like Manning incognito, without charge for months or years, actually helps or hurts the protestor's case.

          (I'd say on balance it seems to help, so far; if they'd simply arrested him, indicted him and convicted him in the old-fashioned way, nobody would be talking about him anymore.)

          • by tqk (413719)

            The US has a whistleblower law that's ostensibly to protect them, yet this administration has attacked more whistleblowers than any other.

            A "whistleblower" is someone who exposes illegal behavior or misconduct, and the "whistleblower law" is meant to protect him from reprisal. The problem here is that everything Snowden has exposed would appear to have the sanction of US law.

            The problem here is Congress has written into law things it had no right to do as defined by the US' Constitution (Fourth Amendment [wikipedia.org]): ... which guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, along with requiring any warrant to be judicially sanctioned and supported by probable cause (emphasis mine). What probable cause allows the courts to believe *everyone in the world* is a valid suspect in the ongoing War On Terrorism? That's just utter rampant paranoia. Who put nutcases like that in charge?!?

            Tho

          • by nbauman (624611)

            Thoreau and MLK went to jail, their incarceration simply became a demonstration of the manifest immorality of the law.

            And you're saying that's a good thing. The Indians who were fighting the American settlers who were taking their land should have surrendered and gotten hung. The French resistance fighters should have surrendered to the Nazis and gotten shot.

            If you had actually gone to jail over something, I might believe you.

        • by King_TJ (85913) on Sunday June 23, 2013 @08:57PM (#44088517) Journal

          I already see the White House big-shots trying to spin Snowden as a fraud, since he's running away for refuge in nations that don't believe in any of what he claims to be fighting for.

          But hey, he's just being practical at this point. As he said himself in an interview, when a major world power decides they're out to get you, they'll eventually succeed if they try hard enough. That doesn't mean it's smart to remain a sitting duck and make yourself easy to snuff out -- which is exactly what staying in the U.S. would do.

          It doesn't really matter where in the world he chooses to travel. The media spin, the lies, and the propaganda won't change or come at a reduced rate. The irony of him being temporarily safer in nations like China than here just further illustrates how deep the problem goes -- and buys Snowden some more time to argue for his side of the case in the press.

          I mean, how can our country's leaders even keep a straight face when declaring Snowden should come back here voluntarily to get his day in court? Everything they've done regarding the spying is handled by a SECRET court -- so there's no way he'd have a fair trial. Essentially, they'd screw him over just as badly as nations like China do all the time to the people opposing their own governments.

      • by 1s44c (552956)

        Hong Kong isn't engaged in 'wholesale repression of anti-government dissent', it's very free and people openly protest again the Chinese government.
        Russian and Cuba, I really don't know.

    • by smash (1351) on Sunday June 23, 2013 @11:06AM (#44085037) Homepage Journal

      Russia isn't the same old USSR any more.

      Take what you hear through western media with a pinch of salt - I highly recommend reading/viewing RT [rt.com] as well as western media to get both perspectives. The different spin each side give the same story is interesting and you can bet the truth is maybe there somewhere in the middle.

  • by arth1 (260657) on Sunday June 23, 2013 @09:37AM (#44084489) Homepage Journal

    By the time this was posted on slashdot, he hadn't just left Hong Kong, but landed in Moscow.

    DICE: When copying news in development, please make sure you update it as needed before posting. This worked better before. Not well, but it has become worse.

  • by bradrum (1639141) on Sunday June 23, 2013 @09:49AM (#44084557)

    According to Interfax.

    God speed. Enjoy the hot Venezuelan women. There is no justice for you in the US...not anymore.

  • by retroworks (652802) on Sunday June 23, 2013 @09:53AM (#44084579) Homepage Journal
    He's suely lost the trail by announcing Iceland, Cuba and Venezuela as destinations, as good as gone.
  • How strange. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Darkness404 (1287218) on Sunday June 23, 2013 @10:15AM (#44084717)
    How strange it is that Russia has become the bastion of human rights and the right to expose corruption. 30 years ago you'd be laughed out of a room if you'd suggest that 30 years later people would be fleeing the US for Russia and China for political freedoms and economic freedoms.

    Times have sure changed.
    • Re:How strange. (Score:4, Informative)

      by DarkOx (621550) on Sunday June 23, 2013 @10:24AM (#44084773) Journal

      How strange it is that Russia has become the bastion of human rights and the right to expose corruption.

      I don't know what news you have been ready but this is hardly the case. The Russian government cracks down hard on anyone who does anything to embarrass it. If Snodew was a Russion who had leaked KGB info they'd go every bit as hard on him as are government has; and then not even consider stopping there.

      No they see this as an opportunity to score diplomatic leverage of some kind, or maybe its just an ego thing for Putin to "Stick it to the man" who knows; in any case this is just an enemy of my enemy is a friend situation, nothing especially virtuous on the part of the Russians. Rainbows and moon beams have not suddenly replaced the usual shit from Vladamir's ass.

    • Re:How strange. (Score:5, Informative)

      by Nidi62 (1525137) on Sunday June 23, 2013 @10:24AM (#44084777)

      How strange it is that Russia has become the bastion of human rights and the right to expose corruption.

      Tell that to Pussy Riot. I'm sure that will comfort them while they are either imprisoned in Russia or living elsewhere to avoid prosecution in Russia.

      • Re:How strange. (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Luckyo (1726890) on Sunday June 23, 2013 @10:47AM (#44084927)

        I recommend actually looking hard and who you're defending. Pussy riot girls are epic level attention whores (literally) who have shot orgy porn while pregnant to "protest" the same issue a couple of years ago, among other similar stunts (you'll find photos of the orgy if you look, video is harder to come by).

        No one cared about them until they busted into church and violated right to freedom of practicing religion without idiots disturbing them in their church. Rather strange, if they were nailed for political reasons rather then their actual stated crime, surely they would have been nailed much earlier, like when they were shooting the preggo porn orgy against Putin?

        There are MANY groups of people in Russia who are worth defending for protecting rights of people. Pussy riot is not one of such groups. You should instead consider people who are trying to dig into human right abuses in Chechnya, journalists who investigate shady regional and federal ties and corruption and so on.

        But instead, we (Westerners) are wasting our energy and efforts on a bunch of dumb attention whores who's main accomplishment is breaking into the church and interrupting orthodox service with risque acts. And at the same time, persecution people who are actually investigating real issues goes unnoticed.

        • Re:How strange. (Score:4, Insightful)

          by Nidi62 (1525137) on Sunday June 23, 2013 @10:54AM (#44084971)

          But instead, we (Westerners) are wasting our energy and efforts on a bunch of dumb attention whores who's main accomplishment is breaking into the church and interrupting orthodox service with risque acts. And at the same time, persecution people who are actually investigating real issues goes unnoticed.

          So it's ok to persecute people because they are attention whores? The US puts up with attention whores (WBC), because they still have 1st Amendment rights. Russia is not much better now than it was when it was part of the USSR, and Putin is not so slowly and definitely surely taking them back that way. Calling Russia a "bastion of human rights" like the GP did is like calling Somalia a bastion of gun control.

    • by simonbp (412489)

      Wait, wait? How is Russia "a bastion of human rights"? Ever tried being supporting an opposition party there?

      And what does this have to do with human rights? A US Government employee broke the law and shared information he wasn't supposed to. And now he's an attention whore traveling to world to keep his name in the news. If he really cared that it was "the right thing to do" he would turned himself in the day he released to keep the storm on PRISIM, not himself.

  • final destination (Score:5, Insightful)

    by 0111 1110 (518466) on Sunday June 23, 2013 @01:39PM (#44086067)

    He can spend up to 3 months in Cuba on a tourist visa. Obviously the Cuban government isn't going to extradite him and Cubana won't be sending the US any flight lists. This point is perhaps the most important. Cuba is a place where Snowdon can break the paper trail. He can stay anywhere from 1 to 90 days there and then procede to his final destination.

    The only risk to this strategy is that the Cuban government may want to ask him a few questions about the NSA before allowing him to leave. Assuming the Cuban government allows him to leave I would guess Ecuador. It's obviously willing to protect whistle blowers and Assange could have discussed the matter directly with officials at his embassy. According to this list [wikipedia.org] Ecuador does have an extradition treaty with the US though, but maybe it is just for murders and other violent crime. I think Ecuador and Venezuela are both nice places to live. So either way he's good as long as he has money. Hopefully he moved all of his funds out of US banks before blowing his whistle. Otherwise freezing his funds will be one of the first things the US LEO thugs will do.

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