Florida Activates System For Citizens To Call Each Other Terrorists 501
An anonymous reader writes "Sheriffs in 13 Northeast Florida counties announced an online system Thursday for residents to report suspicious activity they think may be terrorism-related. The site provides examples of red flags to watch for, such as people with an unusual interest in building plans or who are purchasing materials useful in bomb making. Important places to watch include hobby stores and dive shops."
Really??? (Score:2)
Re:Really??? (Score:4, Insightful)
911 is for emergencies. They are looking for tips.
Re:Really??? (Score:5, Funny)
911 is for emergencies. They are looking for tips.
Here is tip, comrade, everyone is a terrorist, but me!
Re:Really??? (Score:5, Funny)
Well, that should work out well for them; I mean, it's not like Florida is filled with geriatrics who find everyone under the age of 50 to be suspect, right?
Re:Really??? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Really??? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Really??? (Score:5, Insightful)
No, you use 9-1-1 for real threats involving actual terrorists.
This is for increasing the level of fear in citizens in order to make privacy invasion more acceptable.
Re: (Score:2)
This is for increasing the level of fear in citizens in order to make privacy invasion more acceptable.
And since it will be the police getting the reports, how do you figure it will increase the level of fear in citizens?
Re:Really??? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Really??? (Score:5, Insightful)
The same way it happened during the Red Scare?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Really??? (Score:4, Informative)
No, it doesn't because it is irrelevant. The US lost more than 100x the number of people that died at Pearl Harbor in WW2, but it still went to war against Japan, Germany, and Italy. The problem they presented wasn't going to go away by doing nothing. I expect that far more people at the time died of accidents of various sorts than were killed in the attack. Not relevant. The problem of Al Qaida is the same - it won't go away by itself. but will only get worse if ignored. It has to be addressed to turn it around. The point about suicide versus battlefield casualties doesn't negate that and is irrelevant. Although I will take a moment to recognize the considerable improvements in battlefield medicine and personal protection through various means which have resulted in a much lower death rate than previous conflicts - fabulous work.
On a tangential note, you might want to find out what Al Qaida's goals are. They are ultimately independent of US actions.
The Future of Terrorism: What al-Qaida Really Wants [spiegel.de]
The short version: Restore the Islamic Caliphate dissolved in 1923, take over the work, and convert the world to Islam. It is a long term goal. You may not think that is realistic, but that is what they fight and kill for.
Including this lot: Bomb plot: Life sentence for Irfan Naseer, ringleader of Birmingham men planning wave of UK suicide attacks [independent.co.uk]
Re:Really??? (Score:5, Interesting)
For one, they'll probably report some statistics for "dozens of reports of possible terrorist threats each day".
Secondly, the mere existence of the reporting tool means people get reminded of terrorism more often.
Finally, "Where there's smoke, there's fire"; this is the smokescreen (bad pun, sorry).
Re:Really??? (Score:5, Interesting)
1) The fact this program ('report suspected terrorists') exists must mean that there are terrorists out there. I'm afraid.
2) I need to buy a new pressure cooker for the big meal I'm cooking... what if I get reported as a possible terrorist?? I'm afraid.
Finally, someone's thinking of the children! (Score:4, Insightful)
I immediately (certainly didn't RTFA) thought of the retirees already staking out the pressure cookers at Wal-Mart.
Now they'll have a # to call, this should save the 911 operators a lot of grief.
Re: (Score:3)
I immediately (certainly didn't RTFA) thought of the retirees already staking out the pressure cookers at Wal-Mart.
Now they'll have a # to call, this should save the 911 operators a lot of grief.
We're talking North Florida, here. Not as many retirees, more rednecks. Most of whom actually probably only would buy a pressure cooker for bomb-making purposes.
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We're talking North Florida, here. Not as many retirees, more rednecks. Most of whom actually probably only would buy a pressure cooker for bomb-making purposes.
Hey! Them pressure cookers is great for makin' a really tender 'gator stew, you insensitive clod.
Re:Really??? (Score:4, Insightful)
When terrorists become more of a threat than ladders, maybe then I'll consider thinking about giving the government new powers to stop them. Until them, fuck off you dictator wannabee.
Re:Really??? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is for increasing the level of fear in citizens in order to make privacy invasion more acceptable.
And since it will be the police getting the reports, how do you figure it will increase the level of fear in citizens?
The first time local law enforcement says, "Reports of terrorism are up 900% this year; we need an increased budget to deal with the increased threat."
Re:Really??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Really??? (Score:4, Interesting)
My neighbor in the city I used to live in was a gardener. Dude was like 70. Anyway, had a nice greenhouse, would make some cash on the side selling flowers and tomatoes and such every spring/summer. Anyway, one day the feds kicked his door in, tore up his house, wrecked his greenhouse, etc, because someone reported they saw pot there. Feeling they got fucked with, the feds dragged in the person that made a tip to point out the pot. They pointed to a plant with similar leaves that looked nothing like it, that he had openly on sale.
Whatdya know? Turns out the person that called in the tip was also a gardener that now had a much better chance to sell their wares now that his competition was basically ruined. Neighbor gets out of it with a sprained wrist, bruises, a bunch of broken flower pots, ripped bags, busted lights, etc. Looked like a damn hurricane hit the place.
We wrecked an old dude's life on an anonymous tip that he was growing pot there, in the open, in front of tons of straight edged old geezers that would freak out if they so much as saw a real pot leaf.
Re:Really??? (Score:4, Insightful)
Because they will release reports on how many calls come in. Be afraid, citizen, be afraid!
Re:Really??? (Score:4, Insightful)
Because once you've got that label they will throw away whatever legal protections you may have. Don't leave the country because then you are a possible drone target - all because your nosy neighbor thought *you* were suspicious. Remember, everyone probably looks suspicious to someone and you've always had the ability to report suspicious activity. But now you get to add that label. Does it scare you now?
:%s/witch/terrorist/g (Score:3, Insightful)
how do you know she's a witch?
she turned me into a NEWT!
a newt?
well, I got better...
First terrorist (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Species
Thunderbirds
The Love Guru
The Dictator
Everyone's done some stinkers in their time.
Quick, everybody report somebody. (Score:2, Interesting)
With enough reporting, they might catch a single person who once thought about some act of terror. But wait, isn't that different from a terrorist attack?
Oh well, let Florida sort it out, they're good at that.
The Haystack (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: The Haystack (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: The Haystack (Score:5, Insightful)
It is kinda funny to see so many references to needles and haystacks crop up since Schneier said that, but despite the unoriginality of the people who quote it, I think the reason it's so often quoted is that Schneier managed to finally articulate something a lot of intelligent (but not so eloquent) people have been thinking for a long time. Ditto with XKCD -- it taps deep into the geek mind and displays the results with wit and elan. People read Schneier (or XKCD) and because they are well-written and well presented, they think "oh my gosh, he *gets* it." So of course they're going to repeat it.
Anyway, snark all you want, but the unoriginality of an oft-quoted argument has no bearing on the merits of said argument.
Re: The Haystack (Score:4, Informative)
You can only watch so many hours of video.
Sorry, if that is a revelation to you.
Re: (Score:3)
You've got two eyes and you're only watching one video at a time? Slacker.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
That's if the goal is actually to find the needle, rather than simply expand the business of government.
If you listen to what they say, you will be fooled. If you watch what they actually do, you will be enlightened.
Re:The Haystack (Score:5, Funny)
I thought it was to burn the entire field to the ground, then sift the ashes over a magnet?
Re: (Score:3)
Re:The Haystack (Score:5, Insightful)
Who says they haven't [wikipedia.org]? Rounding everyone up and decide who to actually arrest later sounds like scorched earth tactics to me.
Re:The Haystack (Score:5, Insightful)
The edges of a "kettle" would be the absolute best place for a suicide bomber to strike. You'd get to kill a ton of tightly packed innocents & as a bonus, eradicate quite a few LEOs at the same time.
Re:The Haystack (Score:5, Funny)
The edges of a "kettle" would be the absolute best place for a suicide bomber to strike. You'd get to kill a ton of tightly packed innocents & as a bonus, eradicate quite a few LEOs at the same time.
You don't happen to live near Jacksonville, do you? 'Cause I might need to report that.
Re:The Haystack (Score:4, Funny)
If you don't report it, yer a terrorist sympathizer. I'm gonna report you.
Re: (Score:3)
Tightly packed people are more likely to have lower casualties. Suicide bombs can only be so powerful. Humans are quite "squishy" and the people immediately around the bomb will absorb most of the blast energy and the people next to them may or may not survive though they will have severe injuries. Just look at how many people died in the Boston attacks vs how many were injured. Three people died yet nearly 300 people were injured by two bombs.
Re: (Score:3)
Rounding everyone up and decide who to actually arrest later sounds like scorched earth tactics to me.
Well, it's an excellent analogy. When you have nice law abiding citizens who do what the police say, kettling works. You can round up a bunch of innocent people and deprive them of their democratics rights---all piling hay onto the haystack.
When you actually have rioters as was demonstrated a month or two notice who are charging around at random, hurling petrol bombs, steling things, overturning cars and se
Re: (Score:2)
Because the best way to find a needle in a haystack is to dump increasing amounts of hay on top.
In this case: the best way to find a needle in a haystack is to tell the people that the haystack is filled with needles and reward them for giving you information on the location of a needle in the hopes that one tip will give you the location of the ACTUAL needle.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:The Haystack (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's one thing to report someone breaking into a house, backing up a truck filled with electronics to their garage, or seeing somebody get beat up; but what we're talking about is reporting your neighbors. And we're talking about Florida.
So, some woman is wearing a Hijib? Looks suspicious to Bubba.
Brown skin? Hoodie? Suspicious.
While in Florida, and I'm a white guy, I was taking pictures of a local historic house. The neighbors - all old people - were all peaking out their windows and hiding when I looked
Re:The State Militia (Score:3, Interesting)
Anyone planning armed resistance to our criminal government is an idiot. (Peaceful resistance looks pretty fucking foolish, as well.)
Anyone who thinks that taking away my guns improves security is an idiot. (If I can't be trusted with WMDs, then wtf am I doing AT LARGE?)
I can't seem to get through to anyone that the Second Amendment's purpose was to keep us from maintaining a tyrannical military, to be used for crimes against the People. Publius had to do a lot of hard selling to convince everyone that we
Re: (Score:3)
Duh, kill all the people with the idea.
Witnesses at fault in 75% of wrongful convictions: (Score:3)
http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/Eyewitness-Misidentification.php [innocenceproject.org]
Eyewitness misidentification is the single greatest cause of wrongful convictions nationwide, playing a role in nearly 75% of convictions overturned through DNA testing.
While eyewitness testimony can be persuasive evidence before a judge or jury, 30 years of strong social science research has proven that eyewitness identification is often unreliable. Research shows that the human mind is not like a tape recorder; we neither record events exactly as we see them, nor recall them like a tape that has been rewound. Instead, witness memory is like any other evidence at a crime scene; it must be preserved carefully and retrieved methodically, or it can be contaminated.
Oh, good. (Score:2)
What can possibly go wrong?
Dear Sen, McCarthy (Score:5, Funny)
I have here in my hand a list of all the people I suspect of terrorism. It includes many of my business competitors and personal acquaintances I find annoying or otherwise repulsive. For example, you'll see on page 5 I've included Ms. Johnson from down the street who lets her dog shit in my yard and never cleans up after it. I've noticed her making furtive glances at my front window while the dog is dumping and I'm pretty sure she's making notes of when I'm not home so she can steal the propane tank from my Grillmaster and use it in her reign of terror.
Re:Dear Sen, McCarthy (Score:5, Insightful)
It also includes all the people who live near me that I think are Muslim. I don't have any evidence that they're doing anything bad, but I'm scared of them because of what Osama bin Laden did to us, so I think you should investigate them for terrorism.
My list also can include, for an appropriate fee, any prominent members of political groups that opposed you in the previous election.
Re:Dear Sen, McCarthy (Score:4, Informative)
Exactly how a lot of people ended up in Gitmo. Besides the hundreds we've released already, there are other innocent men certified as such by our intelligence services that they won't release.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Dear Sen, McCarthy (Score:4, Funny)
Depending on the breed of dog, they might be terrier-ists.
Well color me not surprised. (Score:2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi [wikipedia.org]
Read it, think, reflect.
Re:Well color me not surprised. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Well color me not surprised. (Score:5, Insightful)
"The Stasi was primarily an organ of political control"
Do you think for one second that Stasi did not use the exact same rhetoric as NSA, Homeland Security etc? What they did and what people in east germany thought they did are not at all the same.
Re:Well color me not surprised. (Score:5, Insightful)
The Stasi was primarily an organ of political control, not an anti-terrorism or ordinary local law enforcement.
Trying to draw a parallel is nonsense.
Contrary to popular perception, the DHS can also be used for political control. Remember when the Occupy Wall Street movement was considered a terrorist threat? Remember when students staging a sit-in were pepper sprayed by the police? That's political control right there.
Ooh great (Score:2)
I am just looking at my hate list and deciding who deserves more more than just a minor SWATting [wikipedia.org]....
Sigh..Florida. (Score:3, Insightful)
As a relatively reclusive person with an electronics "lab" in my garage with the door always open I can see it now.. Police barge in and force me to the ground. "what is this device? it's used for making bombs isn't it!" "no sir.. that is called an oscilloscope." Hell, that might be enough to ship me off to gitmo, but I'm white so probably not.
Auto-SWATing. . . (Score:2)
There your country goes... (Score:4, Insightful)
...right down the drain.
I genuinely don't know what to say to Americans now. It's not like they can just pack up and move to the next country over. But I sure as hell wouldn't be staying another week if I was there... what a sad ending to a country with great promise.
Re:There your country goes... (Score:5, Funny)
What? Over? Did you say "over"?
Nothing is over until we decide it is!
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough...
Re:There your country goes... (Score:4, Interesting)
...right down the drain.
I genuinely don't know what to say to Americans now. It's not like they can just pack up and move to the next country over. But I sure as hell wouldn't be staying another week if I was there... what a sad ending to a country with great promise.
I don't know what to say to Americans either, and I am one. Most of my fellow citizens have no idea what is happening. They think the world is just as it is presented on the news. And they are so conditioned that America = Awesome, and so take their rights and liberties for granted, they are blind to the state trying to take them away. As I have said before, people think fascism has to look like Nazi Germany and even then it has to look like it does in the movies. It's frustrating and scary to me.
Re: (Score:3)
It's frustrating and scary to me too, and I'm nowhere near as close to the fire as you are!
Since you mentioned Nazi Germany's case, the irony is that the social climate that allowed Hitler to rise to power was also largely based on patriotism (<our country> is/was the mightiest) and paranoia about the "enemy" corrupting that great country of theirs - without that fear, Hitler's "it's all because of the Jews" propaganda wouldn't have worked, or at least nowhere near as effectively. In today's USA, it's
Re: (Score:3)
One of the benefit of them getting democracy later in the game is that they could learn from your mistakes. And 200+ years of US democracy include slavery, genocide of Indians, a civil war, witch hunts for communists, and Japanese internment camps, so there's plenty to learn from.
Also, I wouldn't diss Hungary on the grounds of little experience with liberty. After all, they were the only country in the Soviet bloc that had a country-wide armed popular uprising against their Soviet government - even if that
Glad I'm in Pennsylvania (Score:5, Insightful)
...Otherwise, I'd be spending all my time talking to the cops. I'd probably set off every single alarm that's on their "suspicious activity" list. I'm active in hobby rocketry, and sometimes transport my engines in surplus bazooka shell cases. Plus, the girlfriend is a dive instructor.
Hey, anyone remember the 50's and 60's? One the AWFUL things were were told about the Soviet system was the constant suspicion - people encouraged to turn in their neighbors, children encouraged to turn in their parents... (SIGH)
Just remember white-heads in Florida ... (Score:2, Insightful)
If they're young, or wearing a hoodie, or darker skinned than you, or listening to that rock music... they must be up to no good.
Re:Just remember white-heads in Florida ... (Score:4, Insightful)
"Shooting a crackhead that attacked you should be punishable offense" said the dumbass liberal dem
How do we know the crack head attacked you? Because you say so?
Obligatory post (Score:2)
Witchcraft? (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow, if you replace the word 'terrorism' with 'witchcraft' - it sort of reads like a document from Salem, MA circa 1692.
Friend Computer... (Score:2)
Re:Friend Computer... (Score:4, Funny)
Double (Score:2)
Perhaps we could call (Score:5, Interesting)
I am Confused..and want to Do It Right (Score:3)
Should I report Mike Holmes alone, or do I need to name each member of his crew
So gardeners are screwed? (Score:4, Insightful)
So when I pull the plans for my home and the neighbors, then purchase stump remover and fertilizer I can expect a visit from the cops? If I have a pool I am double screwed?
Bomb materials are quite often things that have very many innocent uses. Last time I was at homedepot I saw no bomb aisle. I did see a pool section and a garden section that would give you just about everything you needed.
Soviet Russia won, after all. (Score:5, Interesting)
This is exactly the methods used in Soviet Russia and other countries with similar political system.
For years various such countries lived under communism, and they finally got rid of it 25 years ago. For years USA was hailed as the "country of freedom", and it recently adopts communist-like methods.
In California if you want to purchase medicaments, they check your ID and input your date of birth to the cash register, because law prohibits sale of medicaments (known to Americans as "drugs") to minors.
You also need to provide your ID and date of birth if you purchase a knife sharpener (made in China, of course). Sales of knives to minors is prohibited, and knife sharpeners are put under the same "knife" type of merchandise.
Heck, you cannot even buy something as simple as contact lenses without a prescription! Apparently it is too dangerous for people to buy without doctor approval. Must be true, so many people in Europe die because they bought wrong lenses, right?
Combine this all with extensive spying on their own citizens, security theatre (most visibly by TSA) and now encouraging citizens to spy on the others... Stalin would have been proud!
What next? USA remake of Pavlik Morozov?
Wait, they already have people sue their parents... some will surely chose to denounce instead.
(note: this is slightly on pessimist side to compensate for the optimists out there who will surely reply "nah, it's not an issue, we don't have a problem")
Re:Soviet Russia won, after all. (Score:4, Insightful)
countries lived under communism ...
I think you're confusing communism with a surveillance society. Sure, the USSR encouraged a climate of fear, but that was because the regime was poor and having the citizens in a continual state of fear is the cheapest way to control them. The way that the USA and other western democracies used to use to control their citizens was the threat of taking away their wealth and lifestyle. They've now discovered that the same goals can be achieved much cheaper by the use of fear - so they've adopted the tactics of the totalitarian regimes. It's true that dictatorships and poorly run communist states are poor, but it's not a requirement of communism to monitor and terrorise its population - it's just the easiest way to keep them subjugated.
Re: (Score:3)
Why do you think I confuse it?
I wrote that communist countries (mainly Soviet Russia) used certain methods, and that USA now uses them. This is accurate, as you have also described very clearly. Nothing about USA becoming a communist country.
Learn baby learn (Score:5, Interesting)
Looks like they haven't learnt from the Korean debacle.
Korean govt started this thing for traffic offenses (South Korea).
There was a monetary benefit too attached. Soon there were people, who deliberately slowed down while crossing on green, so their hiding snapper friend would click pictures of motorists caught unawares. Soon this developed to a stage that motorists beat up a few people., and it also resulted in streetfights. Needless to say, it was abandoned.
Now of course, there is no monetary benefit here, but you will have a small percentage who would be misguided into thinking that its their patriotic duty. There will also be a small percentage of malicious people who want to get even with their "weird" neighbor. Then there would be some douchebags who will think its a nice prank to have a swat team in their neighborhood.
So its going to be a party now
Catch 22 (Score:3)
So, you report your neighbour for purchasing chemicals X and Y from the gardening store because they can be used to make IEDs, and are yourself flagged because you know that chemicals X and Y can be used to make IEDs.
Dear America,
Please add me to your No Fly lists so I never, even accidentally, come anywhere near your Orwellian country again.
How nice of them ... (Score:3)
I'm sure the terrorists(tm) will never ever read those PDFs and even if they do, will not at all use the information found therein to obfuscate their activities.
Measuring is not a crime! (Score:4, Interesting)
People drawing or measuring important buildings.
I really just want to go grab a sketch pad and a measuring tape and head downtown...
America doesn't need to worry about terrorists (Score:4, Interesting)
It's doing a perfectly good job destroying itself from the inside.
Budding chemists, engineers, pilots and generally skilled people are being caught up in the dragnet and being rounded up as potential terrorists in this persistent culture of fear. Especially if they're brown.
I've got a name for it (Score:3)
Now if only I could come up with a good short name for that...
Just change the name to DDR already (Score:3)
And be done with it.
Sad.
Re: (Score:2)
Drop out of school. Anybody who wants to learn any math and language at all is obviously suspicious.
Then wouldn't dropping out of school be suspicious?
Re:If you don't want to be tagged (Score:4, Funny)
Then wouldn't dropping out of school be suspicious?
Not in Florida, unfortunately.
Re:Might be a good idea (Score:4, Insightful)
chemical (water processing etc) engineers are interested in one of the country's largest man made chemical(water) processing structure.
shocking!
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm a chemical engineer, and I too visited several water and wastewater treatment facilities while in college. The whole class went at the same time on these "field trips." But, from TFA:
All of the "field trips" we took were during the day, and never "shortly after midnight." And
Re:Might be a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's your lesson, kids: caring about the thing you got your degree in should stop the minute you graduate, because any learning not done between 9 and 5 and in a school building by a tenured professor will get you arrested.
wtf is wrong with you?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If the ultimate goal is to observe something then it is best done during daylight when you can see better.
Trespassing, at midnight, to satisfy educational curiosity?
The only time I have been that hungry for knowledge was when i lived next door to some hot sorority girls who kept the window shades open while changing.
Re: (Score:3)
Of course this means that they're TERRORISTS out to kill people, and not just stupid people tresspassing.
The important thing here is that you adapt to the state of perpetual fear that you're supposed to live in.
Re:Might be a good idea (Score:4, Funny)
Quabbin, though... I dunno, sounds suspiciously Muslim to me.
Al-Qabin? I hear they've been collecting supplies for weapons of mass achusetts.
Re:Might be a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
State Police say there were no warrants or advisories on any of the individuals and "there was no evidence that the seven were committing any crime beyond the trespassing."
How does that justify a tip line for people to report suspected terrorist activity?
Even if those people were trying to poison the water, that reservoir holds 412 billion gallons of water. You would have to dump tanker truck loads of poison it before you'd have any chance of making anyone sick.
There's simply no way that seven people trespassing can carry enough of anything to have any real effect, yet that's exactly the sort of thing that would get reported to the tip line (along with crazy people reporting their neighbors and all the people reporting Florida Man [twitter.com]).
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You mean the sheriffs? The politicians? The newspaper editors? Who exactly do you want us to report all of?
Maybe it should be a poll:
Who should we focus on when making reports about terrorism in Florida:
* The local police department.
* A state or federal police-related department.
* The local judiciary
* State or federal judiciary
* State politicians
* Federal politicians
* Newspaper editors
* Cowboy Neal