Will Microsoft Dis-Kinect Freeloading TV Viewers? 478
theodp writes "Just when you think the cable TV viewing experience couldn't get any worse, GeekWire reports on the Microsoft Xbox Incubation team's patent-pending Consumer Detector, which uses cameras and sensors like those in the Xbox 360 Kinect controller to monitor, count and in some cases identify the people in a room watching television, movies and other content. Should the number of viewers detected exceed the limits of a particular content license, the system would halt playback unless additional viewing rights were purchased."
Masking tape (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Masking tape (Score:5, Insightful)
"No one is watching. Guess I'll turn off then."
Re:Masking tape (Score:5, Interesting)
1984 was about big brother government but when corporations effectively write the laws of government anyway, perhaps we don't need to make a distinction. The only difference it seems is that corporations have absolutely no pretense about looking after the people.
Re:Masking tape (Score:5, Informative)
Huxley, not Orwell. No one is forced to own/watch television.
Re:Masking tape (Score:5, Interesting)
Ironically, I also lived in a flat which did have a TV, but shared an address with a University office block. We were told we had to buy the commercial version of the license and they wouldn't sell us the household version. We stopped even trying to buy a license and heard no more on the matter.
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WTF is a TV license. That is absurd.
Re:Masking tape (Score:4, Insightful)
You don't need a license if you're not watching live or if you only watch DVDs etc, but to "receive live television" you have to buy one.
Re:Masking tape (Score:5, Informative)
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There's already a fair bit of fuss because the current Conservative/LibDem government are currently privatizing the National Health Service and the BBC are, for some reason, giving the issue virtually zero coverage.
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Here in the US it's like that with car insurance. It doesn't matter if you don't own a car...
How does that work? I've lived and owned cars in several states. First, insurance rates are tied to the car being insured--what will it cost to fix/replace? is it a make/model that is often stolen? is it a sports car or other model that suggests the driven will be unsafe? Without a make/model, how does the insurance company determine what rate to change?
Second, the penalty for not insuring your car is your registration gets cancelled/not renewed. If you don't have a car, it's not an issue. Fine, don'
USA and car insurance (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed. If you do not own a car, you don't need to buy car insurance. For the most part, leasing counts as 'owning'. Renting(IE the registration isn't in your name) is generally handled as a rider on the rental agreement - for like $10 they give you insurance.
It gets even more complicated - you can own a car, and as long as it never touches a public street you can leave it unregistered and uninsured, and drive it without a license; while drunk. I just wouldn't suggest getting into an accident with it, because the liability would remain.
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I'm pretty sure I could drive my car through my neighbors living room without ever touching a public road...
Re:Masking tape (Score:5, Interesting)
To AC above: In the first flat I mentioned, no, we didn't have a TV. When they came to the door we would refuse to let them in, as is our right, and suggested they came back with a court warrant. In the second flat (where they refused to sell us a residential licence) we did have a TV, hence we were trying to buy a licence.
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why would you provide your address when buying a tv ?!?
Because no store in the UK will sell you a TV without getting your address, which they will then pass on.
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Huxley, not Orwell. No one is forced to own/watch television.
If it were Huxley all television would be provided free of charge, including all premium channels, so as to keep the working class happy and ignorant of the real goings on of the world. That is of course until we start receiving our daily ration of soma which will make all current distractions seem quaint by comparison. Given the choice, I would prefer Huxleys ignorant utopia over Orwells distopia any day. Then again I am an escapist in every sense of the word . . .
Re:Masking tape (Score:5, Informative)
"Telescreens are most prominently featured in George Orwell's novel Nineteen Eighty-Four, ... They are television and security camera-like devices used by the ruling Party in Oceania to keep its subjects under constant surveillance, thus eliminating the chance of secret conspiracies against Oceania. All members of the Inner Party (upper-class) and Outer Party (middle-class) have telescreens, but the proles (lower-class) are not typically monitored as they are unimportant to the Party.
In Smith's conversation with the shop keeper Charrington, it is mentioned that "[telescreens] are too expensive" and proles can't afford them (presumably, for Party Members purchasing them is obligatory, though this is not explicitly stated)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescreen [wikipedia.org]
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Slashdot Fortune:
"I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half."
-- Jay Gould
The American dream.
Re:Masking tape (Score:4, Insightful)
The way that corporate media critics like Howard Kurtz have kept a blind eye to this is with the excuse that "only governments can sensor people, not corporations."
Sorry, in the era where your only gateway to the mass audience is through companies owned by 4-5 people corporate owned media CAN censor, and even if you don't believe this it's impossible to argue that they can't have deep influence or outright set the agenda of what is discussed.
Re:Masking tape (Score:5, Funny)
Would be funny (Score:4, Insightful)
if it were not literally true, in this case.
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One of the MAFIAA heads, I think Hilary Rosen (?), gave a speech some few years back where she complained that libraries let people read books without paying. My google-fu is weak today and I can't find references, but I remember it well.
Blind people? (Score:3)
Nah, then they would be unable to conume content later and lose revenue.
Now, mandatory contacts that they can control, and cause them to go dark, they would eat that up. ( sort of like the no camreas in a theater stuff being worked on.. but at an eye level )
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Xbox is still losing money [destructoid.com]. It broken even for a short while but has had only one break in it's long line of losing money. Yes, the brand could be hurt further, but not much.
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Masking tape over the camera, Punch a hole in the tape so the camera can see the owner but not the whole room. :)
Re:Masking tape (Score:5, Interesting)
If it comes to the point that I have to do this just to watch a movie, I think I'll just opt out altogether and play my guitar while I watch my oscar swim around his tank.
... watch my oscar swim around his tank.. (Score:3)
+1, Genteelism of the day.
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Re:Masking tape (Score:5, Insightful)
The Kinect has (and would probably use for identification anyways) an infrared camera. I doubt a photo would work on that very well. Better idea is just don't use the damned XBox for movies if it does this.
Re:Masking tape (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Masking tape (Score:5, Funny)
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If you do that, the Xbox will freak out, activate its optical camouflage and start killing everyone in the room.
Re:Masking tape (Score:5, Funny)
If you do that, the Xbox will freak out, activate its optical camouflage and start killing everyone in the room.
Ballmer mode engaged!
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Like every robbery movie that ever had video cameras?
There's something nice about getting ideas for screwing Hollywood FROM Hollywood.
Ransomware was tried before (Score:5, Interesting)
I remember that some years ago, somebody came up with another brilliant idea: Have the TV sets locked on to a particular channel when the ads are shown, and ignore anything the user does with the remote control. Return control to the user only after the ads are finished.
And to top it off, the new "feature" included an "upgraded" service, where the user will pay extra to have the channel lock removed. Patented ransomware.
What they did not take into account, is that people who were unknowingly buying such a thing were going to return them to the store in droves, declaring the units defective.
This move simply smacks of desperation from M$ after their blah launch of Win8 and the Surface tablet (plus the obligatory Apple and Google tablet launches around the same time)
Family photo (Score:3)
Bonus: If the picture is sitting on top of the subwoofer, it might fool any "lack of motion" detector algorithm as well.
Re:Masking tape (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Masking tape (Score:5, Funny)
Today's my turn to watch the movie without wearing the burqa!
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Or simply disconnect it.
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So if your device has a simple problem like a dirty lens it dies completely? Another good reason not to buy one...
Re:Masking tape (Score:5, Insightful)
Over the camera should solve the problem.
Normal technology is designed to fail as robustly as possible. Since video input is non-essential to media playback, graceful degradation and continued operation would be trivial.
DRM isn't normal technology. It's technology that is designed to fail as dramatically as possible. Expect any minor anomalies in the 'trusted' system state to be treated as catastrophic and absolutely incompatible with continued playback.
Re:Masking tape (Score:5, Insightful)
What it's absolutely incompatible with is my wallet.
This shit is hilarious. People put up with the XBOX360 to play games. The moment scenes like this play out, people will just stop using it and go elsewhere. Laptop and Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, Piracy, whatever...
These people that are coming up with shit like this are insane. Even the most unsophisticated consumer sheep is going to lose it the day playback stops because their friend walked in.
Re:Masking tape (Score:4, Insightful)
These people that are coming up with shit like this are insane.
It's true, yet they keep coming up with shit like this.
After decades abusing customers maybe Microsoft have come to the conclusion that they can do anything and people will put up with it.
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After decades abusing customers maybe apple also google have come to the conclusion that they can do anything and people will put up with it.
see, it applies to any large co that continues down the path of 'owning you'.
Re:Masking tape (Score:4, Interesting)
Sorry, but I don't know of a single instance of something Google has that has stopped working because of DRM. Apple, and M$ I have. While Google may be abusing customers (opinion) they have yet to do something horrible deserving of distrust (beyond the obvious).
Re:Masking tape (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you even see the irony in your own statement?
On the one hand, you groan about "people put up with the XBOX360.." and then say "consumer sheep is going to lose it". You do realize that most 'consumer sheep' won't, in fact, "lose it", and you prove the point with your snide remark about the XBOX platform.
This isn't going to be enforced the way you think. It's likely not going to stop playing just because somebody walked in. Where this is going to be used is for things like pay-per-view sporting events and premium content services. This is primarily here to prevent a bar (or similar venue) from buying the consumer-priced-for-home-viewing $90 wrestling fight. (typically, bars and the like pay higher prices based upon their foot traffic) And people won't lose it: they'll pony up the money like they always have. You will have a small number that will complain, but they won't complain that loudly.
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Unfortunately (Fortunately for us) too many false positives is a failure of the system to maintan market leadership.
Remember the DAT recorder? Copy protection worked. Nobody bougnt it. They bought something eles that worked instead. Nobody use it to master home bands because it could not effectively be used to edit down master studio recodings for a home studio. The hard disk recorder replaced it. DAT was dead in the cradle with a DRM knife in it's heart.
Remember the Sony Mini DIsc? Serial copy prote
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Over the camera should solve the problem.
That would likely result in it refusing to play at all. My roommate and I have device a pillow-based device called the "Kinect Bunker" where it masks your identifiable features while still allowing you to see the screen. We get inside it in a 1v1 turn based game when it start detecting the person on the couch instead of the actual player. So it's not exactly hard to fool without just blanking it out and obviously everyone will do that.
Re:Masking tape (Score:5, Informative)
Can it identify a photograph and a real person ?
If not, it's easily hackable...
http://it.slashdot.org/story/12/06/18/184217/samsung-galaxy-s3-face-unlock-tricked-by-photograph
The 'kinect' sensor package includes pretty robust(for the price) depth detection. There are also a fair number of demo applications with adequate-if-not-exactly-perfect facial expression tracking.
It would probably add some false negatives; but the hardware capabilities are there to reject all 2D fakes, as well as weeding out 3D fakes that are inhumanly static...
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It's worth noting that they did fix the issue with face unlock, and in a brilliantly simple way. There's an option no (at least on my Galaxy Nexus) to require a blink to unlock. Hard to make a photo blink... wonder if you could still do it with a video though.
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Good point AC. Wish you had an account logged in so you'd get credit.
I've been planning an "art project" by putting a crime scene photo in front of the Kinect when its supposedly not being used. Then report on what happens (if anything) and when it happens. Assuming the swat team doesn't kill everyone in the house in order to save us as they often do. I'm going to make an (psuedo) anonymous blog and will report back to /. once all this is set up. The main problem I'm facing is I think crime scene photo
Re:Masking tape (Score:4, Interesting)
- set up a machine between your Xbox and router to do a packet capture
- disconnect every other device on the network (not necessary, but will reduce background "noise" from unrelated traffic)
- fire up the Xbox with the Kinect unhooked, and let it run for a bit, keeping an eye on the packets (I don't know much about Xbox networking, but I would guess anything transmitted outside port 80 would be suspect)
- hook up the Kinect and look for any changes in the packet capture
Of course, I'm fairly certain that if the Xbox phones home with the Kinect... uh, connected... it probably does it all the time, but maybe (assuming your hypothesis is correct and they're already watching you) the Kinect uses a different protocol or something.
Re:Masking tape (Score:5, Insightful)
Tampering detected, TV shuts off and you're fucked.
Fuck that, I've heard of this new show called "Outside", and you don't even need a TV to watch it. It's in super HD and it even has some sort of temperature generators, so hot stuff feels hot and cold stuff feels cold. Take that Hollywood 3-D!
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more copying (Score:5, Insightful)
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You could consider this patent as a protection patent. Where the feature Microsoft will never release. However is some lame Cable Company or broadcast company does it, then Microsoft can sue them for patent infringement.
Re:more copying (Score:4, Insightful)
You could consider it that.
But its more than likely Microsoft is planning on bragging up this patent at the Movie and Cable companies in exchange for exclusive deals to play their movies.
This patent is fucking obscene.
If protecting the sale (sorry "licensing") of your product needs police state tools, no one should respect your right to do business at all....
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Of course.. Anything to give the cops 'probable cause' to knock your door down can only be a good thing.
Cops don't need "probable cause" to knock on your door. They can, legally, knock on your door any time.
Re:more copying (Score:5, Funny)
Of course.. Anything to give the cops 'probable cause' to knock your door down can only be a good thing.
Cops don't need "probable cause" to knock on your door. They can, legally, knock on your door any time.
fuck i'm an idiot, i need to learn to read better.
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I can assure you, you are not alone :-)
How do you know? Are you watching him through the kinect?
..Or the other way around (Score:3)
Or do it the other way around: count the number of people present and facing the screen during commercials. Refuse to show the program if the number of viewers exceed that of the break.
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That idea is actually worth another patent, if only to stop companies actually implementing it.
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Well ... (Score:3)
Well, between the ads and other crap Microsoft has been injecting into my XBox lately ... it might be time to log it out of my network and leave it disconnected. Ads in video games is starting to piss me off, and the on-line functionality isn't something I need to make use of.
And the idea of actually licensing based on how many people are in the room has been a goal of the content industry for quite a while. But I sure as hell don't plan on facilitating them.
Why would someone buy that? (Score:3, Informative)
The best way to keep this technology out of your homes is to refuse to purchase it.
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I didn't buy any Apple products and they didn't miraculously turn up in my home so...
I don't mean to bring race into this, but... (Score:3)
Just when I think MS can't get more creepy (Score:5, Funny)
I'm just surprised Sony didn't come up with it first.
Re:Just when I think MS can't get more creepy (Score:5, Funny)
I'm just surprised Sony didn't come up with it first.
Actually, Sony's been doing this for years, they just haven't told anyone. The letter 'o' in the logo badge on your device is a camera.
I've divulged this to you at the risk of assassinati
Re:Just when I think MS can't get more creepy (Score:4, Funny)
He's a very SKILLED assassin.
problem solved! (Score:2)
Our Solution (Score:3)
Whenever we're not using it, the Kinect will be turned around to face some porn!
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Whenever we're not using it, the Kinect will be turned around to face some porn!
I like your targeted ads.
From Great to Creepy in such a short time (Score:2)
More than just the annoyance of a device interrupting my media, I am really feeling creeped out that something we purchased is being used as a "law enforcement" tool against us. Like a sensor in our cars that automatically phones the police when excessive speed is detected. (Woohoo! First car analogy!)
Well, crap... (Score:5, Funny)
Typical dual use technology (Score:5, Interesting)
Typical dual use technology
Multinational megacorp : 1984 is closer every year, lets monitor and track and dehumanize, all to protect us from terrorists and "Its For The Children(tm)" and we'll purchase govt legislators to legislate our profits into perpetuity and damn the peons, some citizens like corporations are more equal than other citizens like meatbags
Open source mythtv implementation : webcam detects wife entering the room, automatic hands off instant channel change from "Naughty Cheerleaders Car Wash 2012" to "CSPAN". I'm actually kinda surprised no one has implemented this yet. With all the video processing being done in VDPAU the CPU needs something to do to keep warm in the winter, and webcams are cheap, and prototype open source cam monitoring software already exists so ...
Re:Typical dual use technology (Score:5, Funny)
You can bet your ass at some stage this will lead to your wife asking: "Why are you jerking off to C-SPAN?"
commercial tv packages bill by fire code capacity (Score:2)
commercial tv packages bill by fire code capacity or per hotel room not by person.
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Well, not exactly. (Disclaimer: I actually work for a cable company..) But, a venue's foot traffic and business type does factor in to what they are charged.
In the case of a hotel, they are typically paying a fairly low rate for the programming compared to a normal "residential" subscriber. Also, there are sometimes extra perks the cable company throws in to the hotel's package: for example, the cable company may maintain the on-site infrastructure for the hotel, even providing the hotel with their own b
This would have to be voluntary (Score:2)
There is no way this could be forced onto the populace. For example, I do not have the Kinect, or any other input device other then the controllers (I did download the smart glass app so I can use my phones keyboard). This would not work on me.
More to the point, this would increase the chances of me never purchasing such a device, which in turn means I would not purchase any games that require such a device (are there any Kinect only games other then the ones that were developed in conjunction with it to
Duct tape has yet another use (Score:2)
Simple solution: Find the camera lens and duct tape over it.
number of viewers (Score:2)
I wasn't aware of any content you buy that is limited in the number of viewers watching, unless we are talking about showing a movie or something to the public. In fact, this sort of scares me. Is this the next step? You got to pay to watch stuff with more then 1 viewer?
"This movie cost $3.50 per person watching, we noticed you have 3 people watching, your account with be charged $10.50 plus appropriate taxes for this movie."
What I see is an excuse for more price gouging.by the media companies.
Assholes (Score:2)
First they changed from selling to "licensing", to further control what you can do with their precious content in the name of "stopping piracy" (as if copyright didn't cover that). Now they want you to pay per head, and check your living room to milk you further if you play wise and bring a few friends over: "This motion picture is licensed for up to 4 viewers.Playback will resume when you upgrade . (or tell two of your freeloading friends to go do something else)".
Also:
a separate Microsoft patent application last year described a system for using sensors to estimate age based on the proportions of their body.
What about achondroplastic dwarves? P
Patent != intention (Score:5, Informative)
I write software patents for a living. (I didn't write this one.) Let me describe how the patent drafting process goes.
A client comes to me with a simple invention - we'd like to do (A), (B), and (C) to achieve result (X). I talk to them at length about what (ABC) is, and what critically sets (ABC) apart from every similar example. I ask questions about how each of (A), (B), and (C) could be varied; what other elements (D), (E), and/or (F) could be added; and whether (ABC) could also be used for results (Y) or (Z).
And when I write up the patent application, EVERYTHING goes in there. (ABC) is described as the base invention, but all of the other material about (D), (E), (F), (X), (Y), and (Z) is also included as optional extensions or uses of (ABC).
Now, here's the critical thing: I haven't fully considered whether (D) is a desirable feature, or whether (Y) is a desirable result. My client doesn't even know, or says, "we don't really intend to implement (D) or do (X)." None of that is relevant. All that matters is: They are all logical, valid extensions of (ABC), so, typically, they all go in. Anything that could make the basic technique more valuable, appear more useful, or might more fully distinguish (ABC) over known techniques is helpful to add to the specification.
I read this patent the same way. The basic invention is: "Use a camera to count and identify people interacting with a device." Now, you can't just stop there - you haven't said what that information might be used for, and the patent office typically rejects applications that look like, "The technique is: Generate some data." So the patent discloses several uses of that information. That doesn't mean that Microsoft has any interest in using that technique - only that it's logically achievable from the basic techniques.
Look, we all agree that technology is neutral, right? For example, DRM has been *used* for lots of obnoxious purposes (including limiting fair-use rights), but the basic technology of DRM is neither good nor bad - it just is. The same principle applies here.
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Sure, if you call it something risible like Digital Rights Management. If you give it an honest name like Disney Rape Mechanism though, suddenly it's not looking so usage-agnostic.
Re:Patent != intention (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree they that they probably won't implement the thing, but the key to preventing the implementation is rabble rousing and anger before any attempt is made. Even if the idea would be to just count the viewers to generate data, that's still too intrusive for me and I'd think most viewers. It's none of Microsoft's business how many people are sitting on my couch. Not to mention there are more creepy things they could do with this data than just milk viewers for more money - facial recognition technology combined with combing the internet . . . ugh.
Of course, I'd never have a Microsoft device in my living room anyway so I'm not too worried about it, but when this type of technology becomes prevalent it's hard to get away from it.
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This quote by Isaac Asimov may be appropriate here:
The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom.
Therefore, can we really say that technology is neutral, if we consider the context?
The Answer is No. (Score:5, Informative)
It's always no.
In other words, Betteridge's law of headlines [wikipedia.org] describes trolling by the writer or publisher rather than a commenter.
Orwellian (Score:3)
Quick! (Score:3)
Meh... on the other hand, screw it. Just take a picture of one dude on a couch, print it on a card, and then sell it with a little bracket which dangles it right in front of the Kinect's eye.
Re:Will Kinects be dis-kinected during movie-fests (Score:4, Interesting)
next?
auto pause when nobody is watching.
Note: advertisements can not be skipped, advertisements are mandatory.
You do not want to fight your customers!
Re:Will Kinects be dis-kinected during movie-fests (Score:5, Insightful)
With the caveat that the customers are the advertisers, and the people who watch are just there to keep the seats warm and bump the Nielsen ratings.
Re:Will Kinects be dis-kinected during movie-fests (Score:4, Funny)
next?
auto pause when nobody is watching.
Note: advertisements can not be skipped, advertisements are mandatory.
You do not want to fight your customers!
At last! A legitimate use for my RealDoll.
She can watch the ads while I take a bathroom break.
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What if they start building the Kinect technology directly into cable boxes, or televisions?
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Why would anyone buy a device that does this and gives no benefit to the user?
My marketing guess is it'll be slid in with something psuedo-appealing.
Like a sorta-interactive exercise TV show where trainers try to motivate real world viewers to do stupid exercises while watching live and the least effective/motivational physical trainer as reported by kinect is voted out each week. Frankly I'd rather watch the pr0n equivalent version. Some vaguely gladiatorial combat thing with the viewers holding thumbs up or thumbs down might be cool. Or again, the pr0n version, literal thumbs up
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One reason Netflix can't offer a premium service with "the good stuff" (and by this I'm guessing you mean popular movies as soon as they hit DVD and TV shows a day or so after they air) is because of the content owners. The content owners think giving content to Netflix means killing DVD sales or driving people away from paying for TV. They see Netflix as an impending apocalypse to be driven away by any means necessary.
They're more than willing to toss some scraps Netflix's way, but they won't release the
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There's probably a remotely installed firmware update to fix that limitation. In the world of electronics and software it is more common for "limitations" to be intentionally designed rather than being physical limitations. For example, even ten years ago I worked for a company that built GPS receiver circuit boards. Customers could pay more money and get more features, but they were shipped the exact same board as the basic model. The only difference was that jumpers were installed for each of the addi