Sci-fi Writer Elizabeth Moon Believes Everyone Should Be Chipped 409
Bob the Super Hamste writes "The BBC has an opinion piece from science fiction writer Elizabeth Moon who believes that everyone should be chipped or barcoded at birth. Her reasoning is that it would prevent identification mistakes and even allow soldiers to identify combatants from non-combatants. Her comments came as part of a discussion on future wars hosted by the BBC World Service."
3 Words (Score:5, Insightful)
Horrible, dystopian, inevitable.
Re:3 Words (Score:4, Insightful)
The first 4 words that came to my mind when I read this proposal were yourself, Elizabeth, fuck, & go.
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What was that in response to??
Re:3 Words (Score:5, Funny)
so you thought; yourself Elizabeth fuck go.
Even Yoda would be proud.
Re:3 Words (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:3 Words (Score:4, Funny)
Having such a unique barcode would have many advantages. In war soldiers could easily differentiate legitimate targets in a population from non combatants.
"I say, would you chaps mind stopping your shooting at us for a few minutes? I'd like to come over with a barcode scanner to verify which if you are supposed to be the enemy, so I don't accidentally hit the wrong person. I'll be right over as soon as I've finished this cup of tea".
"Oh I say! the Cads!"
Re:3 Words (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:3 Words (Score:5, Insightful)
You think it's worth getting your self permanently IDed just so that a bunch of soldiers could identify each other in combat? Wouldn't that application demand ONLY the soldiers to be chipped?
Also, you really need to give your privacy away with shit like that?
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Re:3 Words (Score:4, Interesting)
Soon it won't matter.
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/tech/Facial-Recognition-Technology-in-SF-Bars-Defended-Not-Too-Intrusive-151579195.html [nbcbayarea.com]
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To be fair, her starting point is "If I were empress of the Universe...".
If I was Emperor of the Universe, you would all be tagged and chipped at birth too. And if the secret police finds the slightest sign of dissent, bzzt, doors won't open for you, computers won't let you access them, cars won't start, banks won't deal with you (and of course there is only electronic money), public buildings won't let you access, and so on. So behave!
Re:3 Words (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, you really need to give your privacy away with shit like that?
What privacy? Unless you live under a rock, you are already being monitored - from surveillance cameras to cable channel preferences.
Stupid Woman (Score:5, Interesting)
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henocide
Wow, you must really hate eggs :P
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Only if their prints are on file. If everyone is chipped at birth, their chip ID will certainly be on file from birth.
Yes, yes. It's not like we could finger (or foot) print everyone at birth... Must use electronic chip or tattoo a bar-code - surely neither of those could ever be altered by the individual or faked by someone else. As for military personnel, I'm sure they've been finger-printed - at least anyone with a security clearance has.
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Get yourself digitally signed by the government?
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Re:3 Words (Score:5, Insightful)
The 'file' will only be as good as the records management system used to maintain, store and secure such records. Given how poor most large scale record systems are, I would still expect identity theft to be rife, just harder to restore.
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DNA samples at birth are surprisingly regular now, though I'm not aware of any truly national databases yet. You still have the problem that we don't have the technology to effectively search a DB that large.
As for fingerprints, it's my understanding that they're not developed well enough at birth for an effective print to be taken, though we might be able today by using special ink and paper to help with definition, or use some sort of electronic scanner. The alternative I've heard is they at least used
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On the other hand, a chip won't change, it can be read in less than a second without any appreciable level of error, and they types they are using now should outlast the lifetime of any human.
Although I find the idea of being chipped rather creepy, it's effectively not a lot different than
Re:3 Words (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a major upside to current identification methods requiring time and effort -- it relegates their usage to only those people with the resources available to identify you.
With a chip system, even if the government by some miracle of fortune managed to keep their database secure (which is highly unlikely,) it wouldn't be long before someone realizes that the encrypted message itself is necessarily unique, and therefore could easily be used to start generated an (effectively unencrypted) database without even bothering to break the encryption.
Of course, there's always the "nothing to hide; nothing to fear" argument, but everybody has something they want to (or need to) hide from somebody.
The "nothing to hide.." argument stops being useful once you expand it beyond basic law enforcement duties (where you only would need to hide criminal behavior.) But unfortunately people get judged by more than the law in everyday life (bosses, significant others, family members, classmates, your pastor/rabbi/whatever if you're into that kind of thing, etc.) Expand that set far enough and you'll eventually hit somebody you'd rather not explain that drunken night from 15 years ago to.
Re:3 Words (Score:5, Insightful)
Interestingly enough, there was a guy in my HOA (condo association) that was running for the president or whatever the name of the head executive officer was. Someone else in the HOA was a former member of the FBI and illicitly and illegally did a background check on him - the type of background check that was only available to the FBI and not someone just renting a home. He told everyone about what this guy did (robbery from OVER THIRTY years ago) and nobody voted for him.
Perfect example of why it's bad to have this information in the government's hand in the first place. Once it's there, it's inevitable that it is going to be exploited and misused in a manner the original framers didn't intend.
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Yeah, it'll have a unique ID tag. Just like the SIM card in a phone. And we know those can never be cloned. Oh wait...
Re:Utopia?? (Score:5, Insightful)
"The difference between distopian and utopian is only in the application of technology."
Your idea of utopia might not be mine.
"Imagine the benefits of such a technology if there was no crime,"
Does crime include violent uprising against oppressive governments?
"Never again would a wrong blood transfusion be given, if you have an accident the ambulance would know your allergies instantly, not that there'd be as many accidents as disqualified drivers may actually stay disqualified. No need to worry about losing a credit card since the payment could be made based on the chip in you person. "
Thanks, but i'll put up with that in exchange for not being some 24/7 monitored zombie.
"Or how about the Bill Gates system of a house that is smart enough to adjust tastes depending on who is in the room, with art, music, mood lighting, etc."
And what if there are 2 people in the room? Also for those of us who haven't yet degenerated into a lipid filled spheroid who can't move from a sofa its quite possible to do that manually in , oh , 10 seconds?
"The difference between a distopia and a utopia is the existence of bad guys in the story, nothing more."
And the difference between life and death is simply a beating heart, nothing more. Short of genetically engineering the entire human race to weed out "bad" genes (how do you define bad?), there will always be "bad guys".
I suggest you take a break from star trek re-runs and wake up to the real human condition.
And put in prison (Score:2)
Filip J Fry? (Score:3)
Filip J. Fry, is that you ?
hmm (Score:5, Interesting)
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The bigger risk is not criminals getting forged ID chips, but having their chip re-linked to an innocent persons record, effectively over-writing that person's claim to their own identity. Done right it would be incredibly hard to disprove and nightmare-ish to reinstate.
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Dead bodies suddenly become the greatest source of stolen identities.
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I'd rather be misidentified than have my ID chip blacklisted. Do something the government doesn't like? They disable your chip... then you're screwed. No thanks.
Can be worse than a simple refusal of services... someone classifying you as an enemy combatant.
Anyway, wouldn't it be better to abstain from waging future wars than to rely on chipping your "friends" to distinguish them from your (possible not chipped, thus perhaps freer) enemies?
We're already chipped (Score:4, Insightful)
It's called DNA.
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Umm... one teeny tiny problem (Score:2)
How about the identical twins, triplets, quadruplets?
Normal DNA tests won't be able to identify which one is which
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How about the identical twins, triplets, quadruplets?
Your post's title is correct -- that is indeed a teeny tiny problem. There aren't very many identical twins, triplets, or quadruplets. (at least, not until human cloning becomes popular) And for the people that are identical twins (about 0.2% of the population), the world will just have to live with the fact that there is some ambiguity there.
Dear Elizabeth (Score:5, Insightful)
I am not a number.
Kindly STFU.
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But if you were one, would you feel comfortable as 131916?
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I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but unless you live in some unimaginably remote stretch of wilderness, cut off from civilization, hunting and gathering for your food with no contact with anyone outside your immediate and locally housed family unit, and managed to make your /. post via avian carrier routed through a few dozen otherwise unrelated handlers, then you are a number. You are actually several numbers, and while your sentiment is understandable, it is not grounded in reality. Again, sorry about
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Prolly the only folk you are not a number for, are your local friends/family.
Nah, if he has a will, he's still a number for them.
Oh god are we falling for this? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not even a smart guy and I can put 2 and 2 together here. ,............ this screams "please read my books" or "I have a new book coming, I need my name out there in popular culture for a couple of weeks!"
NOTE: "Sci-fi writer"
We're better than this aren't we?
I sided with Elizabeth before... (Score:5, Informative)
...when she was attacked by the FailFandom brigade for comments ever-so-mildly critical of Islam [battleswarmblog.com].
But I strongly oppose this. A government with the power to barcode everyone at birth is the sort of government powerful enough to commit just about any abuse of its citizens. And the well-connected will still be able to get data related to their barcode altered for their benefit.
I'll pass on the Panopticon society, thank you. And strong private property laws are the first step from preventing it from happening.
Because it's so hard to change (Score:4, Informative)
a chip or a barcode on the skin...
oh, wait.
Interesting. (Score:2)
Well that sounds simple... (Score:2)
...Then you realize how easy it would be to simply copy or steal someone else's identity...
Dear Elizabeth Moon (Score:3, Insightful)
Dear Elizabeth Moon:
The world does not have one culture. Many do not have the same goals or motivations as yours, some have a different culture, religion, history, sense of self, pride and worth from what you experience in your circles.
I understand how one comes to love one's own culture. It's obvious, really: you make certain choices and it suits you well, the natural conclusion is that if everyone made those choices, they would do as well.
This is wrong, and you should learn to identify the ways in which it is wrong. Hasidic Jews do not try to force their ideas on everyone else, we generally don't allow White Supremacists to force their views on everyone else, and we try not to allow other cultures to terrorize us into following their views.
We are not breaking the law, we are quite happy doing what we do, and we don't need to be forced into things "for our own betterment". You needn't concern yourself about our welfare.
At all.
Feel free to convince everyone in your circle of friends, associates, or community to chip, but please don't try to force your views on everyone, who may have a different opinion.
Signed: Someone with a fucking clue.
SSNs already do this (Score:2)
m-o-o-n... (Score:2)
Who cares? (Score:2)
Where to put the chip? (Score:2)
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[Where to put the chip?] If they put it on my shoulder, I'll be very angry...
Help!!
I'm in a positive-feedback loop!
My name is Banner...
Just her suggestion puts a chip on my shoulder that makes me angry at her suggestion that adds another chip...aaagh!!...
[clothes rip]
RAWR! HULK SMASH!
Strat :D
Doesn't matter can't do it. (Score:2)
Only someone completely ignorant of the world she lives in- what battling computer viruses is like and -what deep seated and destabilizing animosity such programs would engender - could possibly proffer such a ridiculous statement.
This is publicity hounding and nothing ore, one hopes.
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Hold on folks (Score:5, Informative)
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I agree. She's a *science fiction author*; coming up with crazy ideas is her job.
Although if she were actually Empress of the Universe, why is she allowing people to fight wars? :P Or if it's her troops fighting a rebellion or something, what would stop the rebellion from altering the chips, hiding their babies so they aren't chipped so that they can be part of a long war, etc?
My shop teacher had a code on his skin (Score:2)
Bar code on the skin? Nothing new at all. This is so last millennium. My high school shop teacher had a numeric code tattooed on his arm. In order to avoid problems with miss-identification, just like Elizabeth proposes. It was a little gift he got as part of the welcome package when he checked into the German Stalag.
I somehow don't think he would have much positive to say about Elizabeth's proposal if he were alive to hear it.
Moon has accomplished her objective (Score:2)
Here we are discussing her absurd ideas. This is a media troll plain and simple. Her agent is happy. Her publisher is happy.
How to media troll? One leads out a sacred cow and kills it. (In this case she has lead out the presumption of anonymity for innocents in a free society. We accept as sacred doctrine (and rightly IMHO) the idea that branding someone is an act society reserves for criminals. And, furthermore, that only a criminal society would brand everyone.) Preferably you kill your cow in the to
Should be easy (Score:2)
The enemy will not be chipped.
I propose she start by getting a chip herself first then we will see.
yea ok what a grand idea (Score:2)
from the only man on earth called Elizabeth
E moon wants everyone chipped. (Score:2)
Dear Ms moon;
Yes this will be fine as soon as we can trust every single person in the government... for every government.
In other words, we will get to it during the reign of Queen Dick.
(Hey Spider, Thanks for everything. Beers on me, or Bushmills.:)
Chip says Elizabeth should be mooned (Score:2)
...no implants, dammit!
Old idea (Score:2)
Elizabeth Moon is a Science Fiction Writer (Score:2)
Anyway, I listened to the piece. At the end she said it would work in fiction. They do discuss the downside of chipping everyone. I guess the question is, do the benefits outweigh the risks? There are benefits, but the dangers posed by chipping are far greater. There would be no anonymity for the most powerful and spies. The apparatus of power would want the 99% chipped, but not themselves, the 1%. We already live in a police state. If your name gets put on a no fly list, you are scr
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NOT a sci-fi writer.
Ok, I'm going to bite. How is "Science Fiction" != "Sci-Fi?"
Only required if government keeps increasing (Score:2)
If our society remains ultimatley ad hoc and individual driven then a chipped id system is not required. But if the government and our whole existence in society is determined by the government's impression of our personal identity then we'll likely need to be chipped.
Social security numbers, medicade, welfare, food stamps... it's very hard to keep track of all that and fraud increases exponentially with the profit in committing it which increases exponentially as you increase the benefits across an increas
Already tried ? (Score:2)
Chipped ? No thanks. (Score:2)
I like her books, but .... (Score:2)
I like her books, but i think she is way off here.
It would not reduce civilian casualties, but it would increase surveillance and opression. Just think how this would have worked out here in Germany during the Hitler-years....
And St John says... (Score:3)
16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,
17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
This was a debate. (Score:5, Informative)
I heard the programme. I get it as a podcast.
Someone is given 60 seconds to make a suggestion that would change the world. Has nobody else never had to take part in a debate? This is a mental exercise or entertainment not a serious statement of intent. The previous week, the speaker suggested that as people took too many crummy digital pictures, we should all be limited to one picture per day.
Go and listen to the article and get some context before criticising what we can all agree would be a seriously bad idea.
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No, there isn't. I've read more reasonable statements coming out of the PR offices of Scientology.
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Never mind that once everyone has ID chips, they link it to border crossing, banking (no cash, just scan chip - oh, you've been disabled, sorry), etc.
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she is an awesome SciFi author; however, this is just nuts!
Good artists (actors, painters, singers, writers) are required to be nuts.
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Re:Elizabeth Moon (Score:5, Insightful)
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I'd have to agree with the gp post. I'm not terribly interested in reading crap from someone proposing implementing the mark of the beast.
The only correct responses to this are no, hell no, and then bullets.
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Re:Elizabeth Moon (Score:5, Informative)
What the hell are you talking about? She was invited to a radio show where they discussed theoretical ways of dealing with futuristic combat. That is exactly where people should throw things to see what sticks. Further to that, she didn't write anything about this. The article was written by the BBC about the show she was in.
The problem here is you've been suckered in by yet another inflammatory article on Slashdot that mentions her suggestion as if it's her core belief, but then fails to mention she later admits it wouldn't work.
Re:Elizabeth Moon (Score:5, Informative)
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Uh that's just the ID and profile. You're not including the tracked info for events, behavior and relationships. Look at a Facebook personal page. The profile is just 1% of the data in the timeline and that's just what a person volunteers.
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Then one hundred 1 TB drives.
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Not atsronomical, but still a hell of a lot more than 1TB...
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I actually did some number crunching on record-keeping for all of humanity. We have plenty of capacity.
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Ok... you opened the door: chips and barcodes weren't invented yet, so eventually in Auschwitz "the SS authorities introduced the practice of tattooing in order to identify the bodies of registered prisoners who had died." (source [ushmm.org]).
Using the chips as an IFF [wikipedia.org]? Yeah right. That'll make it easy for the combat droids. Soldier will of course have their chips removed and issued 'special' ones.
As well, Familias Regnant universe [wikipedia.org]:
The council is made up of members of the Ruling Families. These families have many business interests throughout known space, and political decisions are closely linked to business needs. Non-members of the Ruling Families have little to no control over the choice of leaders and the everyday running of their government.
It is likely that the Ruling Families were initially a business arrangement which became a form of government as business relationships grew and merged. Their government is run according to a set of bylaws and there is no constitution or other set framework in place.
I haven't read any of Elizabeth Moon's works (yet), but is this meant as a warning wher
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Worse yet. The groups who will be shooting won't have chips or will be listed as citizens but will still have guns shooting at you. So this would only prevent friendly fire accidents and could create major problems for determining enemy combatant status (as if it's not hard enough already).
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Worse yet. The groups who will be shooting won't have chips or will be listed as citizens but will still have guns shooting at you.
Worse even than that. The groups who don't have the right chips (for whatever value of "right" you care to use) will be coming after you with their pocket knives to 'liberate' yours.
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Works both ways. Non-combatants who pick up weapons and start shooting should be re-labeled. Victims of abuse, negligence or criminal violence should not.
How do you tell post-humously? A chip isn't going to help in most cases.
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