Europe Agrees To Send Airline Passenger Data To US 403
Qedward writes "The European Parliament has approved the controversial data transfer agreement, the bilateral PNR (passenger name register), with the US which requires European airlines to pass on passenger information, including name, contact details, payment data, itinerary, email and phone numbers to the Department of Homeland Security. Under the new agreement, PNR data will be 'depersonalized' after six months and would be moved into a 'dormant database' after five years. However the information would still be held for a further 15 years before being fully 'anonymized.'"
Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyone care to explain this?
Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
deny entrance to all EU citizens?
this agreement has the same effect on me - I will never travel to the US.
Re:Why? (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
source?
Source is here... (Score:5, Insightful)
17434/11 - Agreement between the United States of America and the European Union on the use and transfer of Passenger Name Records to the United States Department of Homeland Security [europa.eu]
Article 2 Item 1 Defines PNR as being data gathered for any flight, anywhere
Article 2 Items 2 and 3 Specify that carriers who must comply are those who operate flights to the USA even if they are incorporated and store their data - in Europe
The data in the Annex - mentioned in Article 2 Item 1 and Article 3 is as follows:
I have seen nothing in the agreement that limits the data gathering to flights to / from the USA
If anyone finds wording to contradict me please reply.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Amazing stuff... So, do people still think Hugo Chavez's talk about the "arrogance and selfishness of the american imperialism" talk is crazy?
Re:Source is here... (Score:5, Interesting)
I have seen nothing in the agreement that limits the data gathering to flights to / from the USA
And that is the one reason I see to object to this. Sharing passenger data on passengers flying to/from the US makes sense. They're just going to have to provide that info to customs when the passenger arrives anyway, getting the info ahead of time is a smart security move and is not an invasion of privacy.
However, if this provides info on passengers on flights that are not to/from the US, then it goes too far and we should object. You could make a case for providing info on previous international flights for the passengers who are on a flight to the US. For instance, someone flies from Afghanistan to London, then to US, knowing they originated in Afghanistan might be important, even if the flights were a few months apart. But even in that instance, that info should not be provided until they book a flight into the US.
Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Just so we're clear, everybody who has ever said this had no intention nor need to travel to the USA anyway.
Hans Ze Vacationer doesn't care. Jean le Commerce has no choice. You can't fight this with a boycott.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah quite true, but i'm going to do my best to avoid travelling by flight in future, sure a trip to central europe now will take 2-3 days one way instead of couple of hours... But atleast i get good compensation in taxes :)
Re:Why? (Score:4, Insightful)
Not true. I have very much enjoyed visiting the U.S. and would like to go to New York again for a show next year.
At the moment, however, I would feel safer visiting China or or Cuba (where their citizens are treated poorly), than the U.S., which kidnaps and tortures foreign citizens.
The U.S. has joined Iran, North Korea etc. on my list of "Places that are too dangerous to visit right now."
Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
And you've joined the list of people who think hyperbole has a place in a serious discussion. Everyone was already required to provide this information before entering the US anyway. Now they just get it from the airlines.
No. Now they get it no matter where you are travelling. Flying from Paris to Rome? US gets the data. Madrid to London? Uncle Sam hears about it. Even if you never have any plans to ever visit the States, they will have a record of every flight you ever took.
Re: (Score:3)
In this case the threat was to demand visa for all travel to the US. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. The EU countries were stupid in fact EU tourism initiatives should be screaming at their reps, Requiring visa to travel to the US would have done even more damage to their tourism industry and sent more money to Europe.
Uncle Sam ain't project force, they are projecting hate and the harder the squeeze the more they loose their grip.
Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Just so we're clear, everybody who has ever said this had no intention nor need to travel to the USA anyway.
I had the intention. I travel to lots of countries to see the sights, stay in the hotels, and eat at the restaurants, Most countries value tourists as they bring in money, the US treats them like criminals. I really won't overstay my visa, I have more than enough money to support myself, and I sure as hell won't hurt or damage anyone or anything.
They don't want me there? That's a shame, I'll go to the far east and pig out on seafood instead.
Re:Why? (Score:5, Funny)
I had the intention. I travel to lots of countries to see the sights, stay in the hotels, and eat at the restaurants, Most countries value tourists as they bring in money, the US treats them like criminals.
What, you don't like the native experience?
Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Jean le Commerce can video-conference. I've had great results with Tandberg (now Cisco) teleconferencing systems in the past, and I'm willing to bet that for the cost of 3 return flights + hotels and expenses you could kit out an entire suite.
Plus, US Customs can't confiscate your laptop and detain you without probable cause because you didn't want to be x-rayed by a security guard if you never go there in the first place.
Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Plus, US Customs can't confiscate your laptop and detain you without probable cause because you didn't want to be x-rayed by a security guard if you never go there in the first place.
And you won't have your balls fondled by the TSA.
I went through security in America with long hair and unusual cloths. I thought the treatment I got was unusual because of that, but it turns out it's normal.
I went for business, and spent about $5000. I'd rather that had gone to a country that values personal freedom.
Re:Why? (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh, Hans Ze Vacationer does care, at least those who are informed a bit. When Bush was in power, I told my wife: I won't go to the US as long as Bush is in power, halfway expecting the insanity would end after is reign. It didn't. While discussing vacations recently, my wife brought up the US (We saw a really nice documentary about San Fransisco and I've been there and I'd love to take my wife) and I said "no". She didn't understand as Bush was gone, and I told her we basically have no rights at all there. Calmed her down a bit.
Jean le Commerce is a tough nut. Yes, if he's dealing with US corporations, he probably has no choice. However, many International companies now already start to make sure conferences and meetings are done outside of the US to avoid the risk of laptops being ceized, and employees being held. That's a business risk, whether you like it or not.
Re: (Score:3)
However, many International companies now already start to make sure conferences and meetings are done outside of the US to avoid the risk of laptops being ceized, and employees being held.
What is "many" and do you have a citation for this or is it something you're assuming? I don't have a nickle invested so I'm not the least bit concerned, I'm just curious and it seems awfully hyperbolic with the rather big assumptions and weasel words.
Re:Why? (Score:5, Funny)
I think fire should be fought with fire.
I demand blood samples and fingerprints from all Americans entering the EU.
And a cavity search.
Re: (Score:2)
deny entrance to all EU citizens?
this agreement has the same effect on me - I will never travel to the US.
Nor will I which is a real shame actually as I'd love to see some of the sights or go on a shopping trip. Don't they want me spending money and supporting their economy?
Re: (Score:3)
Not all of them look like a lumberjack. Some look like mounties.
Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)
The article says that's exactly what the US threatened. To require a visa for any European entering the US. I think if I were an EU politician, I would be inclined to threaten to do exactly the same to them. But apparently two thirds of them disagree with me. Pity.
Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
I would have called their bluff. Ending visa free travel for Europeans would be a bit of a Phyrric victory, it would immediately pretty much end all tourism from Europe (causing economic damage) and most business travel to the US. The visa application is such a ballache that few people would want to bother, and would take their holidays elsewhere. Business travellers would teleconference or simply not consider doing business in the US.
Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)
The visa application is such a ballache that few people would want to bother, and would take their holidays elsewhere. Business travellers would teleconference or simply not consider doing business in the US.
Truth! Before I got naturalized Finnish citizen, applying for a USA visa was one big, tedious and infinitely irritating procedure where one has to gather ridiculous amounts of documents, like bank statements of the last six months AND payslips AND proof of employment (just to name ONE category of documents). Then, the application fee is paid in some super-archaic way that forces one to go to the bank instead of just whipping out the credit card or doing a bank transfer using internet banking. And finally, you had to provide a special, pre-paid envelope with your application, so they can send you the passport home in that. I didn't mention some other docs one had to collect.
A fucking quest!
Re: (Score:3)
This is _exactly_ the same process people need to go through to visit the Schengen countries if they need a visa. Except that for most countries, one actually has to travel to a consulate rather than being able to send the application through mail.
Re: (Score:2)
Paranoid (Score:2)
The US are paranoid and they are dragging every other country to their level. Someone somewhere has to stand up to these brow beaters . Guess it's not the European wimps.
Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think they basically blackmailed the EU, threatening to require Visa for all Europeans, announcing special controls and harassment of European travelers if they EU would not comply, etc.
It is well-known European politicians have no backbone and comply to US demands any time when a tiny bit of pressure is put on them. There are numerous examples and this is just one of them. :(
Re: (Score:3)
I think they basically blackmailed the EU, threatening to require Visa for all Europeans, announcing special controls and harassment of European travelers if they EU would not comply, etc.
This is already the case. For everyone. The only thing they could do that would have any more effect on Europeans than others is to deny entry completely.
Re: (Score:3)
As a citizen of a European country you usually do not need a visa to travel to the US for leisure for up to 90 days. You need to fill out the ESTA form, but that's not a visa.
Getting a visa means making an appointment with a US embassy weeks in advance, standing in line for hours, having an interview with a US official, paying around 100 Euros. After that, all the ESTA stuff, fingerprinting etc. *still* applies to you.
So no, cancelling the Visa Waiver Program for EU citizens would be a *huge* deal.
Re: (Score:3)
ESTA is something that you have to apply for in advance, cannot travel without and it costs money.
HOW is it not a visa ?
Re: (Score:2)
It's likely they used the carrot not the stick.
Most likely the US told the EU that they would check EU flight data against US lists of known and suspected terrorists.
Re:Why? (Score:4, Insightful)
Wimpy politicians that have forgotten who they represent.
Re:Why? (Score:5, Interesting)
Don't know, we are already sending information about all bank transactions to the US.
A local shop in Denmark had their credit transactions cancelled by the US because they bought Cuban cigars from a company in Germany to sell in their own shop. Which is perfectly legal.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
As a UK citizen I am now subject to three or possibly four sets of laws
UK law(and it's variant if I travel to Scotland or do business there, Scots law) EU law and now US law.
UK law is all well and good, I was born and brought up here so I have a pretty good idea of what I can and cannot do. (Scotland has roughly the same criminal law but a different civil law system I think)
EU laws, which generally have something to do with commerce, are not too bad as to have any effect on me they have to be translated i
Re:Why? (Score:5, Interesting)
Umm... last time I checked my globe US airlines could be hurt by a European No-Fly Zone more than Euro planes would suffer from No-US-flight zones.
In a nutshell, do you really want to fly across Libya to get to Iraq? Or do the trans-sibirian trip to Moscow?
Re:Why? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
There's those pesky little specks called Austria and Switzerland right in the middle of the continent that make the whole deal really unpleasant. No matter where you want to go in Europe you pretty much have to cross them.
Re:Why? (Score:4, Insightful)
the EU's stick is bigger, GNP-wise.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
But the will to wield it is lesser. Also, you might think me naive but the US acts more often in its own self-interest to the detriment of anyone else than does the EU. The EU tends to negotiate win-win agreements to a somewhat greater degree.
I suspect the EU politicians aren't quite as thoroughly bought yet but that will change. Especially if the representatives from France and Britain are anything to go by.
Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why? (Score:4, Informative)
Economic stick? I think the stick has slightly different nature [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures]
Re: (Score:2)
makes me wonder what the endgame will be? the US seems like its determined to implode in on itself
Re: (Score:2)
No, because they don't have oil.
Re:Why? (Score:4)
"No data-sharing without representation in the congress!" - EU citizen.
Think of the children has become Think of the terrorists, in order to justify passage of bad laws/treaties.
Good job! (Score:5, Insightful)
Yet another reason for me not to set foot on an aircraft bound for the United States.
Seriously, you had me sold at having to remove my shoes at check-in.
Re:Good job! (Score:4, Insightful)
Hey don't think lots of us don't agree (although fewer that would be required to see a change!). Unfortunately many of us may not have the qualifications to emigrate anywhere, and additionally, many of us who have investigated have found that we'd just be trading one set of sucky rules for another slightly different set, one which we may be less adept at avoiding treading across.
Personally I'm giving it up to another 5 years, but if things haven't dramatically changed by then, there's going to be little hope of finding somewhere safe and freedom loving to move, because thanks to global treaties it's all being equalized out, such that there's no place to run, and an ever dwindling number of places to hide. (Unless y'know, you're a criminal with good connections, rich (with good connections), or just not being worth the trouble to follow (which only works until you suddenly pop up on the radar and you never know what might lead to that, a year making too much money, complaining about the wrong person, voicing the wrong opinion. Or if you're really stupid, going out and being part of a protest.)
Captcha was 'revoke', like when your civilian rights are revoked because they transfer you out of the country to 'question' you.
Re: (Score:2)
You also have to make sure your flight doesn't fly close to the US or any of it's territories [including 200 miles offshore].
Re:Good job! (Score:4, Insightful)
Who said anything about that data being limited to flights that go to the US?
Re:Good job! (Score:4, Informative)
No one. The agreement seems to apply to all carriers that fly to or from the US, and there is no mention of limiting the release of information only to US-bound flights. So if I choose my national carrier, even on a domestic flight, the US will have my data. Sweet.
Here's the full text of the agreement: http://register.consilium.europa.eu/pdf/en/11/st17/st17434.en11.pdf
What routes? And why transfer data at all? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yet another reason for me not to set foot on an aircraft bound for the United States.
Might make no difference... The way I'm reading the article, it says "requires European airlines to pass on passenger information", without going into detail about whether that's US-bound flights only, flights within the EU, flights from EU to outside EU (but not US), or even any flight, from/to anywhere, done by an EU-based airline company. It would be good if someone could clear this up.
Secondly I don't see why passenger data would need to be transferred to US control at all. It's really naive to assume that the US will handle such data as agreed. Good chance it will end up in multiple databases, and possibly used at will (since under US control), in violation of agreement. What safeguards has the EU to the contrary? Any?
Of course the US wants some persons not to board an airplane, why not arrange for the US to provide that watchlist to an EU-controlled organization that checks this watchlist against passenger data? Flag & possibly take action on matches, data for people that don't set off any flags then wouldn't need to be transferred to the US (that is, other than what's done already in US-bound flights).
All this reads to me as: EU doesn't care about its citizens' privacy & lets itself be bullied by the US. Annoying - the EU is not even 1 sovereign nation, it's a whole group of sovereign nations. Combined a bigger population than the US. Our politicians should really show some more backbone.
Re: (Score:2)
I haven't been on one since I was for the first/last time ransacked by TSA thugs on a flight to Taipei, which I thought was a Taiwanese airline, but turned out to be a Northworst code sharing.
I have survived without problems and look at the huge queues of fat people with opened suitcases with amusement every time I board a plane.
Clarify (Score:3)
Is this just for flights coming into the US?
Or all flights in EU?
Re:Clarify (Score:4, Insightful)
Take a wild guess.
Hint: If there's a "worse" option in such bullshit ideas, it's the correct one.
And by "depersonalized" and "dormant" they mean... (Score:5, Insightful)
...absolutely nothing.
As this violates... (Score:5, Interesting)
... the German "constitution" (actually we dont have one, its called Grundgesetz, but never the less) and some public laws in Germany, I'm curious how the German government is thinking to get away with letting this pass.
In other words: German people have a government guaranty that something like this does never happen with their data. Go one "democratic" level up, and that's gone - cant happen.
I'm curious how far this is in line with the (interpreting of) the EU constitution (which is finally in place for a few years, but that took some kind of precaution to make sure it's vague enough here and there...).
If the pirate party jumps on this, things will likely go crazy.
Re:As this violates... (Score:5, Interesting)
Same way the internet police state law (aka "Vorratsdatenspeicherung") was treated. It will be implemented and then they pray and hope it survives the Constitution Court.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
It's interesting how a lot of Germans cry out loud when the EU overrides some of their laws and make them give up a tiny bit of data privacy, while at the same time they (together with the French) try very hard to force other EU members like Austria (and also non-EU nations like Switzerland) to completely give up their *banking data* privacy.
Re:As this violates... (Score:5, Informative)
On the other hand, I can't think of a single reason why I wouldn't want the government to know how much money I have in the bank, unless it's coming from illegal activities. What could a deranged government do with that information? Make me pay taxes?
Re: (Score:2)
On the other hand, I can't think of a single reason why I wouldn't want the government to know how much money I have in the bank, unless it's coming from illegal activities. What could a deranged government do with that information? Make me pay taxes?
How about seizing your assets? It's only a matter of time before governments resort to massive confiscation in order to pay for itself. In the US it's already being done in the name of "The War on Terror" or "The War on Drugs". In Europe it's done as "Tax Enforcement".
Soon governments will be auditing and seizing the assets of anyone who isn't powerful enough to either move their money and themselves quickly out of harm's way or use influence to redirect the terror against someone else.
Good news for non USA-based conference facilities (Score:5, Insightful)
This should be good news for conference facilities (hotels, etc) outside the USA, and - conversely - bad news for USA-based operations. When faced with the choice of where to locate a conference or other mass gathering of like spirits, it will be much less attractive to choose a location within the USA, simply because there will be fewer attendants willing to subject themselves to these laws. Since these laws seem to apply to USA air space as well - meaning that any flight which enters USA airspace has to have its passenger details registered with the USA authorities, even if the flight never lands in the USA - I guess Canada and Mexico are not good alternatives.
I foresee a booming business for Iceland-based conference facilities :-)
Re: (Score:2)
Only one-way transfer? (Score:5, Interesting)
Europe sends data about all financial transactions to the US. Does the US send data about all financial transactions to Europe?
Europe sends data about all airline passengers to the US. Does the US send data about all airline passengers to Europe?
Long ago I thought we were equal. Obviously, one of us is more equal than the other
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Long ago I thought we were equal. Obviously, one of us is more equal than the other
The degree of equality depends on the size of the stick you carry and whether or not you have a spine to make tough decisions. Our recent crops of leaders in Europe have been and still are a bunch of pussies, which has been amply demonstrated by the way they have handled all manner of crisis over the last few years starting with the how they let genocide go on for several years in the former Yugoslavia (before the Americans finally kicked them in their collective ass and forced them to solve that problem in
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Your papers please (Score:5, Insightful)
... Now without paper or even needing to ask.
Most people won't care: they love America (Score:4, Interesting)
Most people coming to the USA on holiday to see Mickey Mouse won't care. They really won't spend too long thinking about it, and it won't bother them too much. They trust the US government. They've already bought into the American Dream, they are coming for their holidays because they believe the USA is a wonderful place. The thing that will really bother these people will be if they feel unduly harrassed entering the country by customs etc.
The second large group coming to the USA will be business people, and they will be pragmatic: they will put up with the hassle and the sharing of information if it wins their company business.
I think only a small minority of people will object: those that can are sufficiently bothered and are able to take their business elsewhere (can find a US equivalent to work with) or will want to holiday elsewhere because they are unhappy with this information sharing. I don't think this is a large group of people. I suppose the important question is whether their loss to the USA is important to the well being of the USA.
Re:Most people won't care: they love America (Score:5, Insightful)
I only "holiday" in the US because half my family is there and it's nice to see them once in a while. Of course, I always have to visit them ... they can never visit me because US employers seem to give them 30 seconds vacation time every decade or some such and they can never get off work to visit.
It does piss me off that only one entity on earth has my fingerprints - the US Government. Notwithstanding that fingerprinting is reserved only for criminals in the rest of the civilised world, not even my OWN government has mine - but that of a foreign country does? Grr.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
I think you are underestimating the growing dislike for the US laws. I already stopped taking vacations in the US year ago when one of your laws restricted a friend of mine to enter your country. He had been a member of a left wing political party for a few years. Which seemed to be enough to condemn him, like your own senators and US born babies, as a terrorist. And i'm not the only one i know who will not go to the US anymore because of it's way of thinking. I can garantee your tourisme is suffering, even
Re: (Score:3)
It's not about who doesn't care at the moment.
It's about: if things are going in this direction now, what will we have in 10-20-30 years? See, now that's what's scary
Now, my feeling is that all this data collection can hurt much more the average traveller, than the bad guys. Think of people who fly a lot here and there (including me, lot inside the EU and quite frequently to the US), and suddenly this automated tracking system the
Re:Most people won't care: they love America (Score:5, Insightful)
I considered emigrating to America once. Not any more. They don't need to know that information (because my own EU country barely needs to know it!) and I don't need the hassle. I crossed the whole country off my list when I was looking at countries to move to because of the shit you pushed onto the EU after 9/11 - which have had a detrimental effect on the way I travel and assumes I'm a terrorist first and a citizen last. I can't take a fucking drink for my 3-year-old on a plane because of the US enforcing policies about it, nor can I pass through with a laptop without SO MUCH extra hassle, it's hardly worth it.
Hell, my company blacklisted France because of some of their stupid requirements about laptop encryption, so by comparison the US is so far off the list we might as well forget it exists. And the ironic thing? The UK airport security specialists have been dealing with terrorists for DECADES before 9/11 and we warned the US about their stupidly lax policies for years before it and now it's just gone WAY overboard and they've MADE us have the same stupid, worthless procedures.
Tourists are big money, yes, but the biggest income the US would miss is foreign talent. Silicon Valley and similar places rely on the "dream job" of being there to appeal to everyone so they can suck in talent. By making the country appear a totalitarian state before you've even FINISHED BOOKING THE FLIGHT, the US is going to see a drop-off in immigration (of talented people who want to work there, not random joes trying to get in - the numbers might go up but the quality has dropped and will drop more now).
They're basically saying "Hey, come live the dream in our country" followed by "Please remove your shoes and see that man over there because you have a funny name and we think you're a bomber because of that and we'll harass you every time your name comes up."
You cannot live on US talent alone - not for long, anyway. And businesses *ARE* having to make exceptions for the way they do business with you. Before 9/11, people happily carried laptops across the border and didn't worry about it. Since, with all the ridiculous requirements about laptop search, seizure (without evidential status and respect for the laptop and it's contents), suspicion, etc. almost everyone that deals with you from abroad are wiping their laptops before they cross your border, or just refusing to take them at all.
Exceptions mean that it is costing you business, because those exceptions COST TIME AND MONEY. If I ran my own company, I'm not sure I'd ever send a representative to the US at all, given the visa hassle and security charade, even if I *KNEW* they had nothing suspicious. Others on this thread can provide real-world examples of this happening.
The US is slowly painting itself into a corner, which is where it will end up being left to play on its own. There is NOTHING suspicious about a UK person travelling from Kuwait, where they lived for years, to the US. Nothing at all. Unless you have some other information or inclination. But now, almost by default, that person would be marked as a terrorist and interrogated.
Your family jaunt to Disneyland isn't likely to be bothered too much by a one-off interruption. But people doing business there and in other countries regularly are going to keep being pulled to one side and asked questions. And the more time they lose to doing that, the more it costs the businesses involved, and the more they'll raise prices or bother about selling to the US in the first place.
And, as the above poster comments, what's it going to be like in 20 or 30 years times? Hell, they're already just plucking people out of the EU that are of interest to you (and things like the Julian Assange case are still fighting extradition to OTHER EU COUNTRIES on the basis that the US is trying to stick its nose in and pluck him from there instead of going through the proper channels).
The US has pushed its laws across the world. For some reason, the EU capitulates all
email ... (Score:2)
On the other hand, all they have to do is identify me, match that the email I supplied is not my proper one and flag me
damned if you do
Screw it
Nothing new here? (Score:5, Informative)
Is this all passenger data or just trips to USA? (Score:2)
This is ALL passenger movements in EU... (Score:3)
Not just those going to/from USA...
Also, the safeguard offered to depersonalize the data isn't worth the paper it's signed on... it's electronic info... and as we all know here, it's very easy to make copies of it. The Three Letter Agencies will be having wet dreams over this data and will insist on handling it themselves, thus being able to preserve the personal data in their own databases.
Your references actually support the OP... (Score:3)
you should not make blanket statements like this. that's just fear mongering.
to summarize: as far as i can tell this pnr agreement covers flights to/from the us and flights through us airspace
Sorry but your references actually support what the OP said: the agreement covers all flights, not just flights from/to/over the US. The articles say that the agreement applies to airlines operating flights between any of the 27 EU countries and the US. Taken literally, this means it applies to all flights (including internal EU flights) operated by airlines that have flights from/to the US. I see nothing in the articles you mention that suggests a different meaning.
Re:Fuck this. Fuck EVERYTHING about this (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Fuck this. Fuck EVERYTHING about this (Score:5, Insightful)
Vore for your local Pirate Party. I've heard they're at 12% in the polls in Germany. Let's repeat that in all our European countries. EU is not a state in the US.
Re: (Score:3)
Pretty much the only option, if only because they didn't really make a statement about that crap yet and they're generally in favor of privacy.
Re: (Score:2)
It's a shame that the majority of Pirate Parties are run by people with no political acumen. Unless they grow up quickly, they will never be more than a single issue party. The German PP for instance seems to be torn by scandal and internal conflict. When pressed on national television their spokesman had to admit that his party had no position on the situation in Syria.
Here in the Netherlands the only noteworthy thing the PP has done in the past three years is putting up a Pirate Bay proxy. If this post co
Re:Fuck this. Fuck EVERYTHING about this (Score:5, Funny)
> The German PP for instance seems to be torn by scandal and internal conflict.
And you say they have no political acumen? That's pretty much what the "regular" parties do.
Re: (Score:2)
It's a shame that the majority of Pirate Parties are run by people with no political acumen. Unless they grow up quickly, they will never be more than a single issue party.
That is by design. They focus on a few select issues where they are strong and no other party cares about, instead of saying something (not so wise) about everything. Read the original description of the Swedish Pirate party for more info on why this is a good idea.
Re: (Score:3)
I remember when we all derided GWB for not knowing who was in charge of Pakistan. It would be hypocritical for me to let a similar level of ignorance slide from a political ally. If you aren't up to to discussing the news of the day within your party then you're not fit to serve on a city council, let alone serving in the parliament of a civilized country.
You're free to disagree but I hold the people who I vote for to a higher standard.
Re: (Score:2)
Guess the US won't come this time to "liberate" us. And my hopes for France and England ain't much higher.
Think the Russians might?
Re: (Score:3)
Except their memory is that of a kidnap victim with Stockholm's Syndrome--they pine for tyranny.
Re: (Score:2)
1. Good one. You're a stand up, right?
2. The idea was on the table, but the tourist lobby whined that then we can say good-bye to any kind of US tourists.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
US Tourists are the kind that complain about nudity in old paintings, we can well do without them.
Re: (Score:2)
You kidding? That's the reason they come here in the first place!
Sure, they complain about it, but they come and look, so who cares if they're complaining? They have to complain to display their moral outrage while they take pictures for later use... and of course I mean they only want to document the debauchery and perversion.
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
Most americans will be quite happy with just seeing the Grand Canyon and Hawaii, once in their lifetime, in clear contrast with Europeans that make it one of their biggest achievements stepping on each continent and seeing a bit of each of the now 27 countries in the EU.
At least most of us can name more than half the EU states. Can't imagine Americans being able to name more than 10 of theirs.
Re: (Score:3)
To be fair, I'd have a hard time finding most of the US states on a US map either. California, Oregon, Washington, Montana, Nevada, Florida, Texas, ok, they're easy, either due to shape or location, but I guess I'd have a hard time pinpointing, say, Utah, Colorado, Wyoming or Nevada. That rectangular states in the middle west just all look the same to me.
Re: (Score:2)
Well, no one (who isn't an asshole) is going to hand you a blank map of the US and expect you to fill it out, anyway. Rote memorization probably isn't necessary.
Re: (Score:2)
You mean like, say, your companies?
When I look around myself, look at our companies and how they're run, I guess we have less to fear from China than the US. Money ain't everything here, and the Chinese don't have much to offer except money.
Re: (Score:2)
If your boss sends you to the USA, then you go to the USA (or risk losing your job).
If you are self-employed, and you can earn money in the USA, then you go to the USA (or risk going bankrupt).
Freedom and work are two differrent things. When you're at work, your ass belongs to your boss.
However, you should at all times make your company pay for the flight (which is a good idea in general), and have them put as little personal info in the booking as possible. Contact should be your work phone and work email.
Re:TFA unclear (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17764365 [bbc.co.uk]
The agreement applies to airlines operating flights between any of the 27 EU countries and the US.
It covers not only European airlines but also any carriers that are "incorporated or storing data" in the EU and operating flights to or from the US.
http://rt.com/news/eu-us-data-deal-491/ [rt.com]
The agreement applies to airlines that operate flights between EU countries and the US.
The list of airlines covered by the new legislation extends beyond European carriers to include any carriers that are "incorporated or storing data" in the EU and operating flights to or from the US.