Reddit Subpoenaed In Wrongful Death Lawsuit 303
redletterdave writes "In March, a 51-year-old Reddit user named 'Black Visions' wrote his last post on Reddit. He had been writing frequently about depression and suicide, but in his last post where he also threatened his own suicide, others decided to egg him on even further. That turned out to the be the last straw: Seattle news soon reported Jerry had jumped eight stories from a hotel room in the Double Tree in Tukwila, Washington. Reddit announced on Wednesday that the user's sister Sandy has filed a wrongful death lawsuit against nine Reddit users who egged him on, and Reddit has also been subpoenaed in identifying the information of another three individuals."
It's despicable, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
The people involved did a despicable thing. But I can't see how it's any more illegal than someone shouting "Jump!" at someone on a roof top when emergency services are trying to talk them down.
Re:It's despicable, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
The people involved did a despicable thing. But I can't see how it's any more illegal than someone shouting "Jump!" at someone on a roof top when emergency services are trying to talk them down.
The difference is simple. It's in writing, here. There's money to be made.
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These are people who spend most of their time posting on Reddit. You think they actually have enough money to even cover the lawyer's bill to file the suit?
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The people involved did a despicable thing. But I can't see how it's any more illegal than someone shouting "Jump!" at someone on a roof top when emergency services are trying to talk them down.
The difference is simple. It's in writing, here. There's money to be made.
I don't quite follow your point...are you saying that Reddit's business model encourages people to egg others on to cause suicide, because it was in writing? I don't follow how that's true at all. The people egging him on were commenters, who don't get paid to comment. And if you read the actual comment thread, you'll see that there were quite a few people trying to talk him out of it as well; did they all cause Reddit to lose money, or have to pay to post their comments?
If you want to point fingers at e
Re:It's despicable, but... (Score:5, Informative)
are you saying that Reddit's business model encourages people to egg others on to cause suicide, because it was in writing?
No, I think he is saying that there is money to be made in suing those posters, as opposed to trying to sue someone who yells "jump" at someone on a building. It is easier to track down the commenters, than it would be to find the one person who egged on a jumper in a huge crowd of people.
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But, but, this was on the Internet! That means activists who block access to establishments and graffiti artists spend over a decade in jail, and anyone who egged on a suicide should be sued for wrongful death! THIS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS!
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graffiti artists... oh boy. If I caught someone tagging or "expressing themself" on my property, I'd have no problem shooting them in the knee (if I could get away with it)..
Re:It's despicable, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
But I can't see how it's any more illegal than
It's not illegal. A 'wrongful death' lawsuit is a civil action, not a criminal one. In this country, you can be sued for anything. I can sue you for pointing out that suing people for stupid shit is stupid, or because you have a lower slashdot ID than I do. I'm perfectly serious here; citation [wikipedia.org]
Re:It's despicable, but... (Score:4, Informative)
You caused /. to show square brackets and I don't like them. I'm suing you for emotional distress.
Sadly, yes, I could actually do that. I couldn't win, but I could mis-appropriate the full weight of the U.S. Court system to force anyone to waste their own time and money responding or face arrest.
Re:It's despicable, but... (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, no. It would be thrown out of court within minutes.
Of course, you'd never get a lawyer to represent you since there is no money in it and they'd probably be sanctioned. And if you tried to represent yourself you could actually be fined, countersued, and even held in contempt of court for a frivolous lawsuit - which *is* a criminal offense...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frivolous_litigation [wikipedia.org]
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Those shows aren't actual courtrooms. They are binding arbitrations.
Re:It's despicable, but... (Score:5, Funny)
Or what? You'll sue him for Frivolous Citation?
Re:It's despicable, but... (Score:5, Informative)
...any more illegal than...
This isn't a criminal matter. 'Wrongful death' is civil law.
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We're not talking about legality here, in the sense that these people have been charged with a crime. They are being sued by a relative of the deceased — big difference.
Re:It's despicable, but... (Score:4, Funny)
They are being sued by a relative of the deceased — big difference.
Well of course. If the deceased were suing them, he'd have a hard time proving the whole "death" part in court.
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Why would anyone want to stop the suicidal anyway? Our planet is vastly over populated and already straining for adequate resources. If someone wants to kill themselves, let them do it. Geeze!
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Re:It's despicable, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
The people involved did a despicable thing.
Why? If your life is that bad, maybe it's good advice to tell you to end it. No sense being in pain every day. If you have some ideology that every life should be extended as long as possible no matter what, that's fine, but not everyone shares it. Some people's lives suck, and it's theirs to end if they wish.
Re:It's despicable, but... (Score:4, Interesting)
This isn't a criminal charge, but a civil suit. I wouldn't be surprised if shouting "Jump!" at someone on a rooftop could expose one to such liability as well.
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The problem I have with this litigation is the detachment of the accused. While they may have made some insensitive, immature and inappropriate comments -- they had no real sense of the situation and behaved much as many other immature and insensitive internet forum users may have acted -- who hasn't seen plenty of posts made in jest saying "Do it faggot!" "AN HERO!"?
It's hard to know if a post on a forum is made in jest, a troll or is actually the real deal. Expecting everyone to behave and act to every fo
Shouldn't be a crime (Score:5, Interesting)
On the internet, nobody knows if you are who you say you are. You could really be a depressed person, or you could be a 7 line perl script. You could be talking to a real 15 year old girl, or it could be an FBI agent. Then there's products like Siri, cleverbot, etc., that blur the line even further. But even if that problem could be 'solved', there is no way to know whether an internet identity is a single person or a group.
So given that identity is not provable online, why should people act like it is? Also, if you don't mod this post +5, I'm going to hang myself with a power cord.
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How are you going to hang yourself if you only get modded up to +3 or +4?
Re:Shouldn't be a crime (Score:4, Funny)
How are you going to hang yourself if you only get modded up to +3 or +4?
I'll torture a carebear until I have extracted enough tears to drown myself.
Re:Shouldn't be a crime (Score:5, Funny)
Also, if you don't mod this post +5, I'm going to hang myself with a power cord.
Do it! I'll help tie the knot.
Posting AC so your sister doesn't sue me...
Re:Shouldn't be a crime (Score:4)
01
10
See you on the news!
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I think they should be charged as accessories to the death, just as happens if you help a gangster find the address of a guy who owes him money. You didn't do the killing yourself but you did help accomplish the task.
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> So basically, you think we need more laws, because there are no laws for this.
Why would you reach this conclusion? He mentioned the premise (IANAL so I don't know the statute) that this could fall under.
> It is a civil matter. No crime was .
Your criteria for uncivil behavior versus criminal activity is pretty extreme. It is not just irresponsible to knowingly state "yeah go ahead and drink that transmission fluid/poison, it's delicious" to an anonymous (potentially a minor or mentally handicapped i
Re:Shouldn't be a crime (Score:4, Insightful)
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> Your whole post flies in the face of the fact that no criminal action was taken
I appreciate your understanding of tort law. No charges were filed. There's a distinction to be made between that and no criminal action. The District Attorney (ostensibly his office) has discretion and will often not try cases where theres an element of uncertainty. Everyone wants to get re-elected. In another jurisdiction, the event would have been sufficient for a criminal charge. My assertion is that this is part of a fu
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Re:Shouldn't be a crime (Score:4, Funny)
He grammaticalled gooder than you, you dumb.
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So... if you break up with your girlfriend and she jumps off a bridge because of it, then you're an accessory?
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So... if you break up with your girlfriend and she jumps off a bridge because of it, then you're an accessory?
You may not be, but that Gucci handbag was.
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Re:Shouldn't be a crime (Score:5, Insightful)
Legalties aside, if you preserve your own common decency online, then you wouldn't egg on someone to commit suicide, precisely because you *don't* know if they're serious or not.
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So the question is whether we really want to select for the trait of "not committing suicide when depressed even when being egged on to suicide".
We might prefer to reduce the number of people who would egg on suicidal people. That might reduce even more deaths
Re:Shouldn't be a crime (Score:5, Insightful)
But why should you preserve your own common decency online in the first place?
Because if everyone decides not to, the Internet becomes nothing more than an echo chamber for trolls and other lowlifes.
If you just move on to the next post without comment, nothing happens. Sounds like a good option.
Re:Shouldn't be a crime (Score:5, Interesting)
This may be more appropriate than you realize. From a Reddit thread:
From this thread. [reddit.com]
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It isn't a crime. Its a civil issue however. Subpoenas happen in civil cases too.
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So wait.. are you saying that because I don't know if the person I'm talking to is genuinely in distress that gives me the right to make fun of them? There are laws against cyberbullying precisely because of things like this. People are complete assholes on the internet when they think they are safe and anonymous, and they say or do things they would never consider doing in person. I doubt the Reddit posters would stand outside a building and tell a jumper to jump... but when it's just an internet post it's
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"51-year-old Reddit user" (Score:5, Funny)
No hard evidence of any of this (Score:5, Informative)
-Black Visions killed himself
-Sister of Black Visions is actually Black Vision's sister
-That there is any subpoena or legal action being pursued
Get back to me after there's real evidence of any of those things.
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Seattle P-I's list of deaths for that week [seattlepi.com] includes a 51-year-old man who died on March 13, but his name was William M Culver, not Jerry. It appears the poster fit their story to match that article, knowing that people would find it.
Most redditors were in fact trying to help him (Score:5, Informative)
The troll simply didn't read the post (Score:5, Insightful)
It looks like the guy being sued (AlyoshaV) simply didn't read the post till the end (where the suicide note was), and commented on partial post with some stupid joke.
Had he read the post till the end, the suit could be avoided (probably not the suicide).
This should be an important message to all slashdotters: always read all posts in their entirety before commenting. Always RTFA thoroughly till the very end, or you could be the next murderer.
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Knife's Edge (Score:2)
Hahahahahaha (Score:2)
What proof? (Score:2)
People get depressed and tak
Skeptical (Score:5, Interesting)
Comments on Reddit point out that
-- This has happened before in other places with a fake sister
-- the suicide was committed by jumping off a building, while the user threatened to commit suicide by shooting himself
-- the suicide happened several days after the nasty replies were deleted
-- the user's real name was supposedly Jerry, but the name of the man who killed himself was William.
Furthermore, carefully reading the Reddit link itself, Reddit has not received a subpoena. Rather, Reddit has been *told by the supposed sister of the user* that they *will be subpoenaed* in the future; at no point does Reddit claim to have actually received the subpoena. As a bonus, the man's supposed sister claims "We were told by our lawyer not to give any other information out such as our full names or the people to be named in the lawsuit", which makes her claims immune to verification.
It's quite likely that some troll saw a suicide in the newspaper and decided to claim that the suicide was connected when they were really just trolling. Ruling that out would require having the subpoena, not just having a claim that one was sent.
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Oh, and the dead man was 51 years old, which is very unusual for the Reddit demographic.
A real Turing test? (Score:2)
Hah, there's a Turing Test joke in here somewhere, I'm just no that clever....
Go!
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Obligatory: (Score:3)
By the way, if anyone here is in marketing or advertising...kill yourself. Thank you. Just planting seeds, planting seeds is all I'm doing. No joke here, really. Seriously, kill yourself, you have no rationalisation for what you do, you are Satan's little helpers. Kill yourself, kill yourself, kill yourself now. Now, back to the show. Seriously, I know the marketing people: 'There's gonna be a joke comin' up.' There's no fuckin' joke. Suck a tail pipe, hang yourself...borrow a pistol from an NRA buddy, do something...rid the world of your evil fuckin' presence. -- Bill Hicks
Thank goodness Bill isn't around to see this sad shit...
Well yeah, it's Reddit (Score:2)
Nobody should expect any more than this from the site that Reddit has become. I mean, this was a site that for as long as possible allowed child predators and pedophiles to run amok with no regulation or oversight, and then only did something about it when it threatened to become a public relations nightmare. They still allow subreddits about disgusting material to operate in that manner, including one glorifying pictures of dead children.
Read the comments on there and you'll regularly find people defending
Reddit usernames (Score:3)
It's Me Not You (Score:4, Insightful)
Suicide is a personal choice, not anyone else's. I don't see why everyone always tries to blame bullies, commenters, family, etc.
Regardless of if it's a rational decision or not it's my own choice, just like robbing a bank is my fault.
Do I get to blame commenters urging me to commit other crimes too?
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Let's find out.
"Kill yourself, Anonymous Coward."
Waiting for cops...
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Depends on the jurisdiction - some places *do* make it illegal to encourage someone to commit suicide.
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It's a wrongful death suit, not a criminal case.
Re:Poor guy. (Score:4, Insightful)
Christ.. another "there ought to be a law against (x)", or "(x) ought to be a crime"? Seriously, there are too many of your types out there screwing things up already. We keep making dumb laws that have rather nasty unforeseen consequences because some people get their panties in a twist over some distasteful, "deviant", or irksome behavior.
Yeah, those guys were assholes. They showed a severe lack of humanity and empathy. They are worthy of criticizing, shunning, and shaming. But that doesn't mean it should become illegal to be an unsavory prick. Putting people in prison because they are assholes hiding behind the anonymity of the internet is bullshit.
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> Putting people in prison because they are assholes hiding behind the anonymity of the internet is bullshit.
Those are some strong words. That sentiment is also backward. The statements were knowingly made and potentially harmful. If a person can be prosecuted for sitting on a bench alongside another person (reddit or any open forum) then telling that person (who may be of limited capacity - minor, mentally handicapped or ignorant) to do something dangerous, this is simply an extension of existing societ
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I'm normally a pretty ardent "speech should not be illegal"
Of course, all of you are for free speech except when it's speech you don't agree with.
You are arguing that this man (if really existed and not just a troll) had a mental illness serious enough that he lacked the capacity of rational thought. In that case, he should have requested medical help and possibly put under care. Since none of those have happened, he maintained the responsibility for his own actions.
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Drama has consequences.
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Really? You can't see any way somebody shouting, "I'm gonna kill myself, I'm gonna kill myself," while perched on a 10th floor ledge actually jumping to their death could be, in any way, related to a crowd of fuckwads on the ground laughing, pointing, and shouting, "Jump! Jump you faggot!"? The presence of a crowd of people who are not only not concerned, but are actively encouraging the person to kill themselves - and you don't think that might have a negative influence on their receptiveness to a couns
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And if that person is clinically depressed?
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Nevertheless, if you're saying they're not responsible for their actions, then they're not to be treated as adults and shouldn't be allowed on the Internet in the first place. They should be in a safe secluded area like
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"Well yes, officer, I beat my wife. But she was egging me on!"
I would like to see them prove that he wouldn't have killed himself in the absence of those posts. If that wasn't the final straw, something else would have been.
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And aren't the people egging him on also adults, and shouldn't they be responsible for their actions? What if their actions include inflicting additional pain on an already-mentally-disturbed individual, perhaps even so much pain that it pushes him across the line from "only suicidal ideation" to "immediate action on those ideas?"
I suspect this issue of "personal responsibility" in this matter is not as cut & dried as you'd like to pretend i
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The law provides a defense against physical attacks. You're expected to fend of mental attacks by yourself.
Yes those egging him on were adults. And they're assholes. Assholes face the consequences of people not liking them. That's it. No government imposed consequences can
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You can be sued for Mental Anguish or Pain and Suffering for severe emotional distress.
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Except that's completely wrong. Civil suits commonly include damages for "pain and suffering," which is actual, quanitifiable punishment for "mental pain," far beyond the "I was out of work for 2 weeks." It is, specifically, a way of assigning a dollar value as a punishment for causing "mental pain."
You may not be able to go to jail for "mental pain," (well, unless it's a hate crime, or domestic abuse, or...) but the law very much makes allowances
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"Jerry had a fairly troubled past, and had been suicidial before those final few days of his life," Sandy said. "His ex-wife, who is the mother of his disabled 20 year old daugther, took a lot of his money for support and never let Jerry see his daughter.
What I'd like to know is how can 9 assholes on reddit saying "right on, do it" be more responsible for his depression-fueled suicide than that woman. Honestly, I can't comprehend that line of "reasoning".
Re:haha, outdone by reddit! (Score:5, Insightful)
That's why /b/ doesn't keep a record of its posts - by the time a family member would react to something like this, the post would already be gone. And even then, the people are posting as anonymous anyway.
Not posting AC because I'm a real man.
Re:haha, outdone by reddit! (Score:5, Funny)
Not posting AC because I'm a real man.
Now that was just rude. I'm going to kill myself and then sue you for it.
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No, it doesn't keep a record because that is how the original software it is based on worked. This just never changed.
Re:haha, outdone by reddit! (Score:5, Informative)
4chan keeps the ip addresses of everyone who posts, and they let the FBI know when something like this is happening, same with terrorism threats and people who post child pornography.
I'm posting AC because I wear a pink tie.
Re:It'll probably be thrown out (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a difference between not doing anything and intentionally making a medical condition worse.
If you're having a severe asthma attack on the street, the decent thing for me to do would be to call an ambulance. Just walking on by is not decent, but it's also not a crime (unless I'm a medical provider). But blowing cigar smoke in your face hoping that I can make your condition worse so that you keel over? That's different.
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There are numerous laws dealing with mental and emotional duress so yes, this is an area of law.
Someone who is capable of committing suicide cannot "take care of their own brain". Knowingly harassing someone in such a condition and causing them to carry out the suicide is at best manslaughter due to gross negligence.
Obviously if someone had a gun to their own head, was in clear duress and you encouraged them to pull the trigger you would be going to jail (a good lawyer could p
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It's an analogy....
It's also a false analogy.
Re:Choice (Score:5, Insightful)
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If this guy was clinically unable to take responsibility, he should either be in a mental hospital, or in the care of guardians who don't allow him access to the Internet.
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If this guy was clinically unable to take responsibility, he should either be in a mental hospital, or in the care of guardians who don't allow him access to the Internet.
Should be indeed. If everyone with major depression, alcoholism, and the other important factors that contribute to suicide got help then we would see very, very few suicides.
http://www.aafp.org/afp/1999/0315/p1500.html [aafp.org]
http://psycontent.metapress.com/content/ek8w74718q375804/ [metapress.com]br
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Free will, mutha-fscker, ever heard of it?
Sure. I've heard of unicorns and leprechauns too.
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"Now, when you are in the military and your commander tells you to go kill yourself in a roundabout way: "Soldier, go over there, secure that position and stay there", and you do it, then it's an order, of-course that's a different situation, the soldier knew he could get killed because of orders (but even in the military there are bounds of reason that cannot be crossed, a soldier shouldn't be complying with illegal orders for example)."
and thats why in the UCMJ there is a buncha pages about commanders not