Israel Says It Will Treat Online Credit Card Theft As It Would Terrorism 422
In the wake of the online theft of at least 6,000 credit card numbers belonging to Israelis, Israel's Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon said that "Israel has active capabilities for striking at those who are trying to harm it, and no agency or hacker will be immune from retaliatory action." Also at Reuters, with a few more details about the believed thief, known as OxOmar: "After Israeli media ran what they said were interviews conducted with OxOmar over email, the Haaretz newspaper said a blogger had tracked the hacker down and determined he was a 19-year-old citizen of the United Arab Emirates studying and working in Mexico."
How about spammers? (Score:4, Insightful)
I mean, if suddenly a few of these turkey's start getting the business end of a small caliber pistol to the back of the head it wouldn't be that bad would it?
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Retaliatory action? (Score:5, Insightful)
What are they going to do, kill him?
Re:Retaliatory action? (Score:5, Insightful)
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You're a couple of decades late. These days Israel is ALWAYS the aggressor from what I hear.
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Here's 5 pence. Go and have your sarcasm detector adjusted.
Re:Retaliatory action? (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's 5 pence. Go and have your sarcasm detector adjusted.
Seriously, only weeks after the US declares all terrorists will be held indefinitely without regard to citizenship. Pick up a CC you find on the street, expect to surrender your rights as an American.
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Yeah, likewise.
Re:Retaliatory action? (Score:5, Funny)
Israel is and always was the aggressor! They kill millions of innocent unarmed palestinians every day, use their heads to play soccer, and the rest of the bodies to provide blood for their matzos.
Absolutely everybody knows that.
Re:Retaliatory action? (Score:4, Informative)
Just like how hundreds of Israelis are driven off their land and have their olive groves bulldozed so Palestinian settlements can be built on their land? (free of any other races or religions of course). Isn't that how it works?
Those poor poor Israelis, having to suffer with their billion dollars in aid so they can turn around and compete with the US.
Now the ultra-orthodox are taking over Israel so the rest of the population can reap the Jewish extremism they have fostered.
Re:Retaliatory action? (Score:5, Funny)
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Proving that the best defence (more times then not) is a quick and aggressive offence. Not to mention excellent intelligence.
Re:Retaliatory action? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Retaliatory action? (Score:4, Insightful)
The whole agression vs. retaliation dichotomy is pretty meaningless when talking about two sides that have been trading blows almost continually for decades.
Decades??? Try Millenia!
Re:Retaliatory action? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Retaliatory action? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Maybe someone who would think of a solution would never even look at it until somebody else points out a problem. There's a place in this world for us pessimists, godammit.
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have to agree with this anon coward. Jews were hunted down and killed and it started quite a long time before WW2. The current problems are in part due to that; but mostly because the UK (along with the rest of the world) decided that a reparation for the holocaust (I don't like the way that name has been hi-jacked) created Israel. Yep stick a dispossessed ideological concept into the middle of one of the most fought over areas of the planet, call it a new country, and shout out "come all yea faithful".
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I think you are a victim of propaganda and I am sad for you that you are so narrow minded. Do you even know where Israel is on a map? Do you know its history? Do you know what "Palestinians" are and really come from? Do you even understand the conflicts? Do you think you understand Islam? Or even Judaism for that matter.
Getting directly to the article and crime, first of all, this hacking was done for a mix of racial, religious, and political reasons. This would not have been done to another Arab country in
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In addition the same barbarians insist that the holocaust never happened, that it was an invention of Israel. People who spread that kind of lie should have their tongues cut out.
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Never mind a few million people of other nationalities[...]
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Cut their tongue out, sew it back on ... and then cut it out again!
Re:Retaliatory action? (Score:5, Informative)
Secondly, last I recall, citizens in other countries don't fear being blown up, shot, kidnapped, and tortured by Israelis.
Do citizens of Gaza and the West Bank count?
you do realize that the enemies of Israel such as Egypt actually receive more US aid.
Incorrect. Israel gets $3 billion per year. Egypt gets $1.3 billion. Israel has a population of 7.6 million. Egypt has 81 million. So per capita aid is many times higher for Israel.
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I like Israel, it's the closest thing in that part of the world that comes close to respecting the idea of law. What I don't like is that it's currently run by a bunch of corrupt fascists that think nothing of sending assassination squads to other countries under fake passports of those that think that Israel is their ally.
Re:Retaliatory action? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd reply, but I'm afraid the Mossad would treat me as a terrorist.
Re:Retaliatory action? (Score:5, Insightful)
Critical of Israel != anti-semitic
Re:Bullshit (Score:4, Insightful)
Shut the fuck up, racist.
I'm fed up of being called racist because I'm critical of some country's policies. If you hadn't noticed, Syria is taking a bit more a bashing in the news than Isreal recently, and when I or other people comment upon that they get called anti-muslim.
I know you are spouting pro-Semitic, racist vomit, because you're not addressing any of the issues, you're just name calling, and dropping people into your well defined categories.
alternatively (Score:3, Insightful)
what am i talking about ? if you dont know what that was, just shut up, and educate yourself before talking politics.
Re:Retaliatory action? (Score:5, Insightful)
I know you are just being modest for the uninformed, but from the statement "(suprisingly many israeli newspapers are left wing and anti-govt before you call bias)" I would remove the word "surprisingly". Anyone who has ever followed the Israeli points-of-view (in addition to others) couldn't miss the fact that Israel has a wide spectrum of opinions (a sign of a very healthy, open, and diverse society in my opinion).
I hope that one day your neighbours value life and liberty as much as your countrymen do. Not all of the citizens of the world are fooled by the pro-terrorist propaganda, or the bullshit from their sychophants elsewhere.
Re:Retaliatory action? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Ah yes, and there we have it, when people bring their space fairies into the argument, you just know all logic and reason is lost.
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Microsoft has one of its three strategic development centers outside the US in Israel. It is based on several startup companies that Microsoft has acquired in Israel, which are now part of this development center. Most of Windows NT technology was developed in Israel.
AKAMAI technology was developed in Israel by Danny Lewin, its co-founder and
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I will cite myself, with some emphasis added, citing Nietzsche in-another unrelated thread.
Re:Subcaste (Score:4, Interesting)
by JonySuede (1908576) on Friday January 06, @07:15PM (#38616880) Journal
the ubercast Nietzsche is talking about is not the one the Nazi understood...
From Beyond good and evil:
What we nowadays call a “nation” in Europe is essentially more a res facta [something made] than a res nata [something born] (indeed sometimes it looks confusingly like a res ficta et picta [something made up and unreal]—), in any case something developing, young, easily adjusted, not yet a race, to say nothing of aere perennius [more enduring than bronze], as is the Jewish type. But these “nations” should be very wary of every hot-headed competition and enmity! That the Jews, if they wanted to—or if people were to force them, as the anti-Semites seem to want to do —could even now become predominant, in fact, quite literally gain mastery over Europe, is certain; that they are not working and planning for that is equally certain. Meanwhile by contrast they desire and wish––even with a certain insistence—to be absorbed into and assimilated by Europe. They thirst to be finally established somewhere or other, allowed, respected, and to bring to an end their nomadic life, to the “Wandering Jew.” And people should pay full attention to this tendency and impulse (which in itself perhaps even expresses a moderating of Jewish instincts) and accommodate it. And for this, it might perhaps be useful and reasonable to expel the anti-Semitic ranters out of the country.
They were poked for so many years by the Muslim world, and by the western world as the worst interlude ever, that it is only normal for them to strongly react when they are specifically attacked by people of a specific religion.
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Israel actually went a step further than that - they made a terrorist [wikipedia.org] their Prime Minister!
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Unfortunately -- probably not.
Re:Retaliatory action? (Score:5, Funny)
They want to contact this guy to see what he can do about their kids cell phone bills.
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The new catch phrase apparently (Score:5, Insightful)
Just call every crime terrorism.
Sad really, as it 'normalizes' the true acts of terrorism. If everything is labeled terrorism, it becomes 'yet another crime' and is ignored.
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That'll teach you to walk at the crosswalk!
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We'll see summary executions on the streets.
Although, this being a money-related crime, the executioners shall be wielding socks stuffed with lots of coins instead of axes.
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We'll see summary executions on the streets.
Although, this being a money-related crime, the executioners shall be wielding socks stuffed with lots of coins instead of axes.
Why would executioners wield socks stuffed with axes?
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Re:The new catch phrase apparently (Score:5, Informative)
They didn't say it is terrorism, they said they would use the same tools as for terrorism. That is, they know it's not terrorism, but think that the same tools would be useful.
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Well, TFA says the Israelis called these cyber-attacks, "a breach of sovereignty comparable to a terrorist operation, and must be treated as such." That's pretty close to calling it terrorism. Maybe they should pass a law making it "statutory terrorism".
Re:The new catch phrase apparently (Score:5, Informative)
And you obviously don't know or understand anything about the way Israel handles things. Please don't say things like this unless you've had the some education on the subject, please.
The reason it's a big deal out there is because they don't have the kind of laws for consumer protection that we do. Someone steals your credit card, and runs up a $30,000 tab, you pay it... or you go to jail. Period. So think about it this way. If someone effectively bombs your life, by taking your credit card, and shoots you with a debt you cannot pay and the ire of a state that takes debt VERY seriously... how is it not an act of terrorism? That's literally destroying someone's life.
What I'm wondering though, is if this means Israel will start negotiating with credit card thieves, and giving them what they want while getting nothing in return. We'll have to see.
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Clearly the Arabs have been going about this all the wrong way. Instead of buying tanks and planes and firing rockets at Israeli towns, they should just have been stealing credit card numbers.
Re:The new catch phrase apparently (Score:5, Insightful)
If the problem is insufficient consumer protection laws, wouldn't the right solution be ... wait for it ... better consumer protection laws?
Re:The new catch phrase apparently (Score:4, Insightful)
Why would a consumer, knowingly liable for all potential credit card fraud, possess a credit card with a $30k limit that he/she can't afford to cover?
Re:The new catch phrase apparently (Score:5, Insightful)
Now imagine that no matter how you react, someone who doesn't live under these conditions accuses you of overreacting and not having any sort of perspective.
Re:The new catch phrase apparently (Score:5, Interesting)
the supposed civilian statistics thrown up by the palestinians are weighted EXTREMELY heavily towards males over the age of 14 and under 40.
And how do you account for the civilian statistics thrown up by the Israelis? Palestinian civilian casualities in the second intifada: [wikipedia.org]
According to B'Tselem, of the 6,484 Palestinians killed by Israeli forces since the beginning of the Second Intifada, 3,036 did not take part in hostilities while 2,248 did so. The remainder (950 individuals) were either police officers killed at their police stations or otherwise uncertain as to whether they took part in the hostilities. 1,329 (20,5 percent) of those killed were minors. A further 53 Palestinians were killed by Israeli civilians.
B'Tselem [wikipedia.org] is an Israeli non-governmental organization (NGO). It calls itself "The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories". The group was founded on February 3, 1989 by a group of prominent Israeli public figures, including lawyers, academics, journalists, and members of the Knesset.
B'Tselem is Israeli, it was founded by respected prominent Israelis, and it says 1329 Palestinian children were killed by Israelis in the second intifada, and that children were 20% of the total Palestinians killed. They also say that the majority of all Palestinians killed took no part in hostilities ie. most of the people killed by the Israeli military were civilians. Odd that you were moderated up to +5, when you offer no evidence for your personal opinion, and it is contrary to all the established evidence from both sides in the conflict.
Re:The new catch phrase apparently (Score:4, Informative)
I just feel sorry for whomever it is that's living next door to the thieves when Israel overreacts. Israel isn't exactly known for keeping any sort of perspective on things. Kill one of their citizens and they'll kill dozens of your citizens with little to no concern for innocent civilians.
Not according to Jonathan Sacerdoti [newstatesman.com] in the New Statesman (most certainly not a pro-Israel publication). In fact, during Operation Cast Lead, Israel managed a better than 1:1 ratio (that is, one civilian per combatant killed). The UN estimate for similar assymetric warfare is 3:1 - that is three civilians for each combatant killed. And since then, they have done even better. In 2011, it was either 1:10 (Jane's correspondent in Israel) [twitter.com] or 1:3 (Elder of Zion - factoring in numbers from PCHR) [blogspot.com].
Look for the actual facts, not mass media accounts. And as a rule of thumb, I'd discount hysterical claims right after an event, until they are actually examined. (Cases in point: the whole Muhammed al-Dura story [wikipedia.org], which was later shown to be a hoax, the supposed "massacre" of hundreds or thousands in Jenin [wikipedia.org] that turned out to be 52 or 53, mostly combatants).
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Tel Aviv is basically a borough in New York City, so, yes.
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New Buzz Word? (Score:2)
I guess terrorism is now just one more meaningless buzz word.
I imagine that defining the work "terrorist" as "criminal" helps to get around a lot of that unnecessary red tape of the justice system.
The original 0xOmar post on pastebin (Score:5, Insightful)
Here is an excerpt from 0xOmar's original post on pastebin:
It's first part of our release, my goal is reacing 1 million non-duplicate people, which is 1/6 of Israel's population.
...
What's fun for us?
- Watching 400,000 people gathered in front of Israeli credit card companies and banks, complaining about cards and that they are stolen
- Watching Israeli banks shredding 400,000 credit cards and re-generate new cards (so costly, huh?)
- Watching people purchasing stuff for theirself using the cards and making Israeli credit cards untrustable in the world, like Nigerian credit cards
- and much more...
The alleged goal is to hurt lots of random people without any personal gain. And what is the goal of terrorism?
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God forbid that people ever be inconvenienced!
Re:The original 0xOmar post on pastebin (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:The original 0xOmar post on pastebin (Score:5, Insightful)
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Bullshit. If it was YOUR credit card, or your wife's, or child's (if you are older) then you would want your state to take action. If the goal of the heist was not ordinary crime (take a little money) but solely to disrupt your families life then what crime is closest precent to that? that's right, terrorism.
To me it seems that your political views about "funding in a post 9/11 political environment" has overriden your human empathy. As in all such cases the best thing to do would be to put aside your poli
Re:The original 0xOmar post on pastebin (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure. I'd want the state to do what it takes to stop him, just like I want them to stop bank robbers and shoplifters.
No, not really. I recognize bureaucrats twist language in an effort to get funding.
"What should be done?" isn't the same question as "Is this terrorism?"
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Fail. That is a politicized term as well. No blood, then no terrorism.
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The goal of terrorism is, you now, terror, not "Aw crap, this is going to be a hassle."
Neologism: Hasselism. As in committing acts of hasselism. No relationship to David Hasslehoff.
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I think the key here is to decide if your use of "hurt" is appropriate. It conflates financial harm with the kind of physical suffering usually caused by terrorists. Personally, I don't think that's appropriate, but if you do then you would be right to side with the Israeli government on this issue.
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I would want my government and my banks to fuciking FIX their CREDIT CARD SECURITY and their BANKING LAWS!
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The guy, indeed, claims to have stolen 400'000 CC Numbers and not just 6'000 as mentioned in TFS:
http://pastebin.com/13nJQQ9p [pastebin.com]
Re:The original 0xOmar post on pastebin (Score:5, Insightful)
Read those lines carefully. The goals seems more than anything to hurt Israeli banks. That may or may not be for personal gain--one can presumably play the money market towards that end. The fact that lots of random people are hurt is an indirect consequence, not the objective goal.
"the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes." Now, if the above is an attempt to cause Israel harm through its banks or to change the banking system through political acts...but even then, there's no violence involved and while the suggested interpretation of resulting events from the leak are intimidating and coercive, the fact that they're actually releasing the credit card details make it more than just a threat. So, no, overall, I'd guess the term you're looking for is the term "asshole". Sure, terrorists might be assholes, but not all assholes are terrorists.
If anything, this sounds like a case of (a) if all you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail--and Israel sure likes it anti-terrorism hammer--and (b) just another example of political corruption where instead of punishing the banks for somehow fucking up so badly that the information was leaked online and calling for their heads (figuratively) they're more interested in calling for the heads (literally) of the people who exposed just how fucked up securing that data was--an act that is ultimately self-defeating if it were meant to protect those random people who are hurt as instead of using the opportunity for a very public, open expose on the issues with the banking system as a justification to fix those problems they've chosen to focused on attacking the messengers (evil bastards that they are) and leaving tons of other crooks to do the same thing in secret (although I guess Israel could always send its secret police into other countries to execute the crooks, but they can't advertise that as a deterrent, so that rather counters the whole idea that this is more a symbolic thing to draw attention to avoid future breaches).
In short, this is why calling everything terrorism is fucked up. It solves nothing, blurs the evil that terrorism is, and demonstrates how beholden governments are to their people: those (people and organizations) with money and not the average person.
PS - This doesn't mean I don't think the leakers shouldn't be punished both for the breach and the leak. But that doesn't justify any claim of terrorism nor the focus on the leakers seemingly over and above those that allowed the leak. Either Israeli banks are secure or they are not. If they're not--which seems to be demonstrated--and one's whole country is dependent upon them, I'd be more upset and focused on them failing in their duty than the countless evil or assholic people in the world who would exploit such businesses. I mean, there's an implied fraud given the reasonable expectations of what a bank is supposed to be, a firm that will securely hold your money; it's harder to be upset at the child/man/bastard who shows everyone the emperor wears no clothes.
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So causing inconvenience is now on equal ground with murder? And a sin is much worse when the assailant gains nothing from it?
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By that standard, 'Global Warming' alarmists would be terrorists.
YeYe (Score:4, Insightful)
Film at 11.
Awwww, poor guy. (Score:3)
If he's strangled by a hotel maid we'll know what happened.
Not that I'll, you know, shed a tear.
This is not theft (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is not theft (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not the accounts that get stolen but the money. Just like a train robbery doesn't mean a theft of trains. [youtube.com]
True terrorism (Score:5, Funny)
True terrorism is a criminal act that terrorizes beyond the actual incident. In my opinion, these things should also be added to that list:
High school mobbing.
Tail gating drivers.
The NY Yankees.
Clowns.
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Don't forget DRM, foreclosures, high school*, and Atari 2600 graphics.
*That's not already on the list. Read carefully.
way to not screw around (Score:2)
way to not screw around.
terrorism? (Score:2)
Israel bombing Palestinians for credit card fraud? (Score:2)
Israel gonna flatten Gaza Strip every time some Isreali gets their credit card swiped?
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The actual original article (Score:2)
This is the original article that the linked articles are attempting to paraphrase:
Israel vows to hit back after credit cards hacked [haaretz.com]
While it doesn't add too much information, it might have slightly better wording.
After all the advancements in cryptography (Score:3)
we still have an effectively broken payment system, and instead of fixing it, they are going after the symptoms...
Re:After all the advancements in cryptography (Score:4, Insightful)
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For how long will they be able set and flood the world with very low cost weak crypto is the question.
http://cryptome.org/nsa-v-all.htm [cryptome.org]
Setting the Data Encryption Standard (DES) was the hint.
Shape of things (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm pretty sure we can expect to see something similar in the US before long.
Anyone who hacks into an account, or uses the Internet for crime (such as filesharing) or disrupts corporate activity by protesting in a park, is going to be treated as a terrorist and considered an enemy combatant. After all, when you threaten profits, you threaten everything we hold sacred. Let's just see what happens to the Occupy people who dare protest at the GOP Convention outside of the specified "Free Speech Zone" later this year.
As we know, last week a bill became law that allows for "terrorists" to be held indefinitely without being charged. There already is a legal doctrine allowing assassination of citizens for being "terrorists".
The message is clear: You. Better. Behave.
I'll get modded down, probably (Score:3, Insightful)
As much as I have a problem with the way the Israelis oppress the Palestinians and deny them fundamental human rights....
They're not wrong to call crackers who steal people's financial data terrorists.
The people whose credit is being damaged and whose money is stolen are NOT the ones who make decisions for the Israeli government. Nor were the people who had their info stolen by Anonymous in North America or Europe.
When you victimize the people at random, you are committing a terrorist act. You are punishing the innocent for the decisions and actions of the guilty who are not harmed in the LEAST when you victimize the people. Terrorism does NOT have to include death and murder.
True, there is usually less inflammatory legislation in place that can be used to prosecute crackers, but it's also largely ineffective, because it's classed as a "white collar" crime. "White Collar" is a smokescreen for "business crime" laws, with watered down penalties to avoid "hurting" the unethical business people who get caught in fraud, extortion, money laundering, ponzi schemes, and other scams. It downplays the number of people who are hurt by their actions. Financial crimes which hurt hundreds, thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of people should have much harsher punishments and jail time than they do.
Fines do not stop a business, nor do they punish the executives who made the illegal decisions. They're treated as a cost of doing business, and the company pays the tab because the executives are protected from financial damages by the very structure of a legal corporation. JAIL TIME FOR EXECUTIVES, not fines for companies! Their role as officers of the company does NOT protect them from personal prosecution for illegal management of a company. There is absolutely NOTHING in Canadian or US corporate law that says otherwise. It's just not done very often, because these buggers have DEEP pockets for lawyers to fight the charges tooth and nail.
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Ask Martha Stewart -- she's an example of someone who WAS jailed for her "white collar" crimes. It CAN be done. But with the rarity of it, when it does happen, the guilty are likely to claim they were "singled out" for special prosecution. At least Martha had the dignity to accept and serve her sentence gracefully instead of making any such claims.
That is just stupid (Score:4, Insightful)
Terrorists are not in it for money or financial gain, these scum are. Applying the wrong counter-strategy is just plain dumb. Not that I am surprises Israeli politicians are as dumb as the rest of them.
All part of the plan? (Score:4, Insightful)
Those fabulous steps to Draconian governance from Western-style democracies are:
1. Establish a basis for circumventing human rights (eg "terrorism" or "piracy" or "national security", etc.);
2. Imbue state systems with financial gain from said basis (eg prison industrial complex, military industrial complex, etc.);
3. Have said systems lobby for increased funding and authority, encroaching on traditional authorities (eg policing, prosecutors, media, voting systems, etc);
4. Expand the application of the basis for circumventing human rights to other areas (eg immigration, child pornography, copyright violations, any other interests with lobbyists);
5. Enact laws that undermine the financing of political dissension, and undermine systems that may allow any discourse critical of the established government;
6. Engage in mass human rights violations, ghettoization, prison labour; State ignores human rights, imprisons or executes dissenters and acts with impunity and disregard for reason;
7. The state becomes a vehicle for despots supported by demagoguery. Non tenet anguillam, per caudam qui tenet illam.
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Re:Run to the USA to fund the murder of the purps? (Score:5, Informative)
The average Israeli gets more USA federal tax dollars spent on them than the average USA citizen.
Can you support this? I went looking, and it seems that Israel receives about $3,000,000,000 in aid. With a population of about 7.8 million people, this works out to less than $400/person.
This page [cbpp.org], the 2011 federal budget was about $3.5E12. If you focus on the social programs, retirement benefits and highway spending, then these account for about 68% of the federal budget. Dividing this total by a population of about 310 million people, I arrive at a total spending figure of about $7,700 per US citizen.
I've double-checked everything and can't see where I've made a mistake, other than in the arbitrary decision to exclude all defense, research and interest payments.
Re:Run to the USA to fund the murder of the purps? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Here [worldpolicy.org]is both support and dissent for Slasho81's position on where US aid to Israel goes. After looking at the link, and searching a bit more, I'd like to point out that Isreael's military imports far exceed the USA's .foreign aid [wikipedia.org] to Israel. I don't necessarily support foreign aid to Israel, but I would like the facts of the support to be clear.
Re:Run to the USA to fund the murder of the purps? (Score:5, Interesting)
US FMF grants to Israel in 2011, divided by the population of Israel in 2011, ends up as $384 per capita. The 2011 US budget, divided by the population of the US in 2011, ends up as $11,897 per capita. That's ignoring the fact that Israel has to spend the FMF money in the USA, in effect subsidising the American military-industrial complex.
Protip: Don't post bullshit pseudo-statistics to Slashdot - we guys love our calculators.