FBI Leaves Cleared Names On Terrorist Watch List 181
x_IamSpartacus_x writes "According to a recent FOIA request the FBI doesn't always take names off of the Terrorist Watch List even when those people have been cleared of charges or had charges dropped. 'If an individual is acquitted or charges are dismissed for a crime related to terrorism, the individual must still meet the reasonable suspicion standard in order to remain on, or be subsequently nominated to, the terrorist watch list,' the once-classified memorandum says. The New York Times is running a story about it as well, saying the data is even used by local police officers to check names during traffic stops."
Eternally marked until forgiven by God--ie never. (Score:4, Informative)
Innocent until proven guilty inversed to the extreme: guilty until proven completely, absolutely, with a cherry on top innocent?
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And even then, we'll update the bad guy list you're on... later... after coffee
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Re:Eternally marked until forgiven by God--ie neve (Score:4, Interesting)
No, actually, guilty until finally proven guilty.
Justice will never give up. There's no escaping. Since there's no accusation that doesn't have some grain of truth, the accusation is enough to prove guilt. Besides, prosecuting and tracking innocent people would be unfair, so everyone we track and prosecute must be guilty; surely you don't think we're anything other than unscrupulously fair, right? I mean, thinking like that is a sure sign of disloyalty and latent terroristic intent.
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At least we're safe now.
Re:guilty until finally proven guilty (Score:4, Insightful)
+1 Cardinal Richelieu.
âoeIf you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang himâ.
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... which has nothing to do with the contents of the lines, and everything to do with the concept of forgery.
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No. Richelieu meant that his Inquisition was capable of finding "heresy" within any six lines of any man's speech. They did not have to forge anything, merely "see" what they read with a sufficient fervor via a sufficiently fanatical eye of a religious zealot. The torture of the suspect, or his family, was guaranteed extract a signed "confession" later.
It is no coincidence that the main villain in Dumas' books is an evil religious nut, supported by a blood-thirsty, nearly all-powerful (at the time) fanatic
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Your sig is eerily prophetic, relative to this story. Maybe substitute out "Net" with "Government lists"? (BTW, my version is "Once it's in the Google aether, it never goes away").
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Since there's no accusation that doesn't have some grain of truth, the accusation is enough to prove guilt.
Yep. As my years of reading the Daily Mail have taught me, there's no smoke without a paedophile.
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This is true for almost all prosecutors as well. The assumption is guilty until proven innocent, and even then a formal protest must be made. Their job is to find guilt. Those who are elected or hired by elected officials have an interest in finding everyone guilty, because if you "lose" a case (someone is found to not be guilty) then you are being soft on crime or not effective enough and are in danger of losing your job. Even then it's better in their eyes to have at least tried to convict one than to
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Since there's no accusation that doesn't have some grain of truth, the accusation is enough to prove guilt.
And I guess that statement itself counts as such an accusation. Call it circular logic, but at least it's internally consistent!
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No, actually, guilty until finally proven guilty.
Justice will never give up.
Huh! Double-speak already, eh? Miniluv and Minipeace?
(is that still justice?)
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In the United States Legal system, you get charged, thrown in jail, and then you have to post bond and hire a lawyer (or risk defending yourself) to get the charges dropped if you are innocent. If you are guilty, you get charged, thrown in jail, and you post bond, your conviction depends on the size of your wallet and what kind of legal defense you can get. OJ Simpson is a classic example, there are countless others.
Here's the thing... the CIA, NSA, FBI are all getting massive amounts of funding from the
You confuse prison with observation (Score:3)
Innocent until proven guilty inversed to the extreme: guilty until proven completely, absolutely, with a cherry on top innocent?
You erroneously equate standards used to put a person in prison with standards used to watch a person. For many years there was no evidence to convict Al Capone of being a gangster but there was a "reasonable suspicion" that led to Al and his minions being observed. You seem to be implying such observations were illegitimate.
That said, are there truly innocent (legally not guilty != innocent) people unjustly on the list? I'm sure there are. Are there other bureaucratic or administrative blunders? I'm sur
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You make a very good point, that it's not so much the standards of getting people on to this list which is the problem. The problem is how supposedly 'innocent' people are treated. Preventing a person from flying should only happen when you have sufficient evidence to indicate that they intend on doing something. That amount of evidence should then be used to get them convicted, rather than taking the half-assed measure of putting them on a no-fly list.
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Actually, Constitutionally, not guilty == innocent. Watching someone forever for the slightest slip-up defies that Constitutional mandate. Watching someone even after solid evidence actually demonstrates their innocence (as opposed to merely failing to establish guilt or even failing to provide enough evidence to even attempt to establish guilt) can only be the result of irrationality.
They are actually in paranoid schizophrenic territory: "I know A is out to get me! Don't you see the way he wears that red t
Not In the U.S. Constitution ... (Score:2)
Actually, Constitutionally, not guilty == innocent. Watching someone forever for the slightest slip-up defies that Constitutional mandate.
You are wrong, in both the constitutional and legal sense.
"Things That Are Not In the U.S. Constitution
Innocent Until Proven Guilty
First, it should be pointed out that if you did it, you're guilty, no matter what. So you're not innocent unless you're truly innocent. However, our system presumes innocence, which means that legally speaking, even the obviously guilty are treated as though they are innocent, until they are proven otherwise.
The concept of the presumption of innocence is one of the most ba
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The presumption of innocence is neatly wrapped up in the Amendments to the Constitution and the "due process" incorporated by reference.
It is connected to such a degree that you cannot evade innocent until proven guilty without violating the Constitution.
Presumption of innocence allows observation (Score:2)
The presumption of innocence is neatly wrapped up in the Amendments to the Constitution and the "due process" incorporated by reference. It is connected to such a degree that you cannot evade innocent until proven guilty without violating the Constitution.
The presumption of innocence pertains to depriving a person of liberty or property. It obviously does not restrict the government from observing a person. Every person of interest is investigated while in the presumed innocent state.
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Since being on the list can include "no fly" status and certainly calls for being more thoroughly searched at the gate, there is a deprivation of liberty.
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The one that requires due process.
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The one that requires due process.
Clue: Investigating and observing a person is part of that due process. The US Constitution merely puts some restrictions on that investigation. Compelling a person to testify against themselves and having probable cause (a standard well short of proof) before searching a home are notable examples. Observing their public activities, like traveling, and interviewing them in a public space, like in the airport, are allowed.
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Sure. However, it also calls for the investigation and observation to end once it fails to demonstrate guilt, such as when it goes to court and there uis a finding of not guilty or when charges are dropped due to insufficient evidence.
At some point, repeated compulsory interviews move from a legitimate tool of investigation supported by probable cause to a simple extralegal harassment.
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You must be new here, but have you actually ever read the Bill of Rights? Here's what you're presumably referring to: "No person shall [...] be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law".
Ah, sweet liberty, which means all things to all readers. Of course, in the original Klingon, it meant nothing more than being safe from incarceration, but doubtless you interpret it to mean liberty to scream "fire!" while being ass spelunked by your gay llama husband in the business class secti
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Don't be silly. Why DON'T you believe that being either banned from air travel or flagged for extra gate rape AND for extra checking at any traffic stop, etc might be considered a deprivation of liberty? It's a lot like being on probation, only you were never found guilty of anything.
I believe that being found not guilty of a particular offense makes further watching for that very same offense problematic. This isn't the littering, jay walking, petty theft and terrorism watchlist, now is it? If you weren't
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It is far worse than that. Your 'name' not you is innocent until proven guilty. Pay careful attention to that fact that it is 'names' on a watch list not persons. If you share the same name you come under the same scrutiny.
I could be the underlying reality is, that how they treat people who get pulled up by this illegal (guilty until proven, whoops oh wait, guilty forever regardless) watch list has more to do with how common the name is, rather than any real evidence ie if too many people complain too of
Traffic stops and such (Score:5, Insightful)
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and we don't have a 'suspected drunk driver' watch list.
We do in Minnesota: "Whiskey Plates" [nvo.com]
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so after two DWI's they put a W in front of the number? here we just revoke the licence (for 1year for first office for life after second)
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so after two DWI's they put a W in front of the number? here we just revoke the licence (for 1year for first office for life after second)
Hmm. So which is better? Assume that someone who has done something twice will be guilty of the same thing for the rest of his life and never let him drive again? Or let people around him know that he's been convicted of something twice so they can keep an eye on him and will be more likely to report suspicious driving (crossing the center line, crossing the fog line, sudden changes in speed, etc) but allow him to otherwise drive a car?
You know the W isn't for the cops, it is for the public. The cops have
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Right but DWI is completely and utterly avoidable. I understand the logic, first time was a bad decision on the drivers part - he has a year to learn from his mistakes. Second shows they don't care for the law and will do it anyways - so you take the privilege of driving away.
I'm of the mind that driving on public roads is a privilege to be earned via trust, not a right. If someone can't be trusted to follow the basics of motor vehicle safety they are show a disregard to the safety of others and putting
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In my country, DUI convicts who lose their license (which happens when they harm any person while in that state) just keep on driving without it... They can't lose it again, can they?
They're driving under the assumption that they aren't held up by the police anyways (otherwise, they wouldn't do it while drunk).
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Unlike the terrorist watch list, at least the whiskey plates only happen after TWO actual convictions. Due process of law and an actual guilty finding, twice over.
The watch list just requires that some paranoid somewhere doesn't like the look of you. It would be as if you got whiskey plates because any cop anywhere thinks you look like you might like to party too much. You can't get rid of them even if a medical test shows you have never taken a drink in your life.
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Frankly, we could have a 9/11 every month and still not equal the number of deaths due to drunk driving
You are assuming that the weapons of the bad guys would not be upgraded beyond a fuel ladened jet.
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Frankly, we could have a 9/11 every month and still not equal the number of deaths due to drunk driving
You are assuming that the weapons of the bad guys would not be upgraded beyond a fuel ladened jet.
You are assuming that the government would be able to stop it in any event.
Every act of "terror" thwarted since 9/11 has been due to ordinary citizens observing, and in many cases, acting. Your government overlords have done nothing but conditioned you unreasonable searches and unconstitutional "watch lists" are reasonable.
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Frankly, we could have a 9/11 every month and still not equal the number of deaths due to drunk driving
You are assuming that the weapons of the bad guys would not be upgraded beyond a fuel ladened jet.
You are assuming that the government would be able to stop it in any event. Every act of "terror" thwarted since 9/11 has been due to ordinary citizens observing, and in many cases, acting. Your government overlords have done nothing but conditioned you unreasonable searches and unconstitutional "watch lists" are reasonable.
I did a quick google and found:
"Since September 11, 2001, at least 30 planned terrorist attacks have been foiled, all but two of them prevented by law enforcement."
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2010/04/30-terrorist-plots-foiled-how-the-system-worked [heritage.org]
Two non-law enforcement foilings may be understating things, or maybe their definition of terrorism requires an international component. I'm thinking of a times square vendor who tipped off police to a domestic nutcase. In any case there are clea
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Not Guilty is Not Innocent (Score:2)
The FBI should keep people on the watch list if they think he/she is probably guilty, even if they have a reasonable doubt about his guilt.
That said, the watch list as is, is worthless. Too many names - particularly without pictures or at least age/gender/description - are worse than not enough.
Re:Not Guilty is Not Innocent (Score:5, Insightful)
"Repo Man" FBI Agents (Score:2)
Agent Rogersz: Good evening, Otto. This is Agent Rogersz. I'm going to ask you a few questions. Since time is short and you may lie, I'm going to have to torture you. But I want you to know, it isn't personal.
Otto: This isn't really necessary. I'll tell you anything you want to know.
Leila: I don't think he knows.
Agent Rogersz: Increase the voltage!
Leila: But what if he's innocent?
Agent Rogersz: No one is innocent. Proceed.
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That said, the watch list as is, is worthless. Too many names - particularly without pictures or at least age/gender/description - are worse than not enough.
I don't know about that. Obviously, anyone with a first, last, or middle name of "Hussien" is a security threat and should be on the terror list.
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I don't know about that. Obviously, anyone with a first, last, or middle name of "Hussien" is a security threat and should be on the terror list.
Yeah, you just can't trust those dyslectics.
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And the Constitution says you are innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law. Do you recommend we scrap that old rag?
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Yes he does. But only for "those", you know, "other", dangerous people with dangerous ideas, who dress differently. And smell funny. Or speak some suspicious language. Actually, many like him believe that "those people" should be all in camps, or at least deported to Africa somewhere, for their own safety, naturally!
Not like you and I, true Patriots.
I mean you
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It is codified within it's amendments but not in those exact words. Hint, "due process" includes a presumption of innocence. Alas, some people are unable to comprehend paraphrase and summary. A few of those appear to have been raised by wolves and gain some sort of boost to their pathetic ego by calling people things like "fucktard".
I must conclude that your understanding of the Constitution is restricted to a shallow literal reading of the words.
IOW: used to harass people (Score:5, Interesting)
This just confirms the fears of such a list at the time it was created.
We have a police state.
If you don't have a badge, you have no rights.
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Badge? I think you mean party member. Keep your comments double-plus good.
no no no no no... (Score:2)
We're still a free society, just that some (government officials/employees) are more equal than others (the "little" people.)
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Comments like yours just piss me off. Not because there isnt perhaps some merit to your sentiment, or that you could have dragged a meaningful point out of your post; no, its the fact that you were unable to make a point without the most extreme kinds of hyperbole, which just drags the entire conversation down.
Not to mention how insulting it is for people in one of the freer examples of society in human history complaining that they have NO rights. If you had "no rights", you wouldnt be on slashdot complain
This makes plenty of sense (Score:2)
The police forces work for the executive branches of government. They investigate and suspect people and when they feel they have enough evidence to make a conviction, they arrest and submit their case (and the suspect(s)) to another branch of government for trial.
I see no reason why, once processed by this other branch of government, the police forces need to stop being suspicious and watchful.
That said, it is highly inappropriate that there are no checks and balances against these government actions and
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Where they make statements designed to obtain a conviction (regardless of the truth of such statements), which are accepted unquestioningly over the testimony of others, because the police wear snazzy uniforms and can lie with a straight face.
The
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Because their suspicions were found to be unwarranted by that other branch or in some cases, their own additional evidence convinced them that they couldn't win in court. If you can be suspected forever in spite of evidence and reason to the contrary and if that suspicion can have real consequences (like being barred from flying or marked for extra gate rape) then it defies the concept of innocent until proven guilty.
If the Constitution is null and void, then so is the United States and the FBI.
What's the big secret? (Score:2)
I don't know why they couldn't release the names of the people on the watchlist.
If you're on, you find out fast enough once you try to board a plane.
Absolutely nothing new, unfortunately. (Score:4, Interesting)
My Discovery of America [wikimedia.org] is probably my favourite story of this persistent debacle-- and its events occurred in 1985, not 2011!
Makes sense to me... (Score:3)
If someone was put on a list, charged with crimes and then cleared I would consider that person to be a risk for being a terrorist. They're probably pretty cross with the US of A after going through all that and might try to get revenge.
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This makes senses since the USA has nothing but Good Guys(tm) running the government. Therefore the list is perfect and is never used to punish people that pissed off people in power or money.
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So you're saying we should just do away with that whole court thing and tell law enforcement to just go ahead and lock people up based on their best judgement?
What's wrong with this? (Score:2)
If a mobster gets a not guilty verdict at a trial, does the FBI have to destroy their dossier on him? Of course not. It's their job to keep tabs on people they consider dangerous. If a terrorist gets a not guilty verdict on the grounds that the prosecution's case was based on illegally obtained information, then the FBI should absolutely keep him on the watch list.
It is good that people can't be locked up unless proven guilty of a crime, even if those people have associated with known terrorist groups.
It
Re:What's wrong with this? (Score:4, Insightful)
And what if I call your name in as a faulty tip, and the tip is cleared as bogus, but you suddenly no longer have the same rights and privileges as everyone else?
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You have rights, those don't go away but now you're on the list. Just think of it as the FBI friending you on Facebook and you'll be fine.
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Strawberry with a hint of Cyanide.
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That and being forever flagged for the extended pat-down at the airport or even actually barred from flying.
Let's try an experiment. Tell us your real name and address and we'll phone in a few anonymous tips. You can report back on how you hadn't noticed.
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Having had a few clearances and background checks in my past, I'm on a few lists so don't worry. I'm just not on any of the "black" lists..
Look, the government has invested billions in information intelligence and even what I type right now is probably going through some filters looking for keywords. You just don't know about it *now* but it'll come out in a story 10 years from now. That's how governments work, what you don't know won't hurt you. Trust us but if we come knocking on your door at night, t
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That would be wrong, but is that what is happening? The situation the OP proposed is entirely reasonable, the situation you propose is not. Unless we know which is nearer to what is actually happening we can't very well judge if it's wrong or not.
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Well, let's see. Being acquitted isn't enough and having the charges dismissed (meaning the evidence is so weak that it's not worth a trial) isn't enough. It seems questionable if anything is enough to get off the list.
Just how long must such a person be on "unofficial probation"?
"summer camp" in somalia (Score:2)
And what if I call your name in as a faulty tip, and the tip is cleared as bogus, ...
Then the name should be removed from the list.
On the other hand, if a person did indeed do nothing more than attend "summer camp" in somalia, yemen or the pakistani tribal regions then they probably should be on a list. How to treat people on that list is an entirely different discussion.
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It's not a "dossier" it's a File in this country. You sound like somebody from France! Papers Please!
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I think Kevin Bacon linked to Al Qaeda [theonion.com] nicely sums up the problem there. Particularly if the "linking" is done in secret, without any rules of evidence.
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If people on the watch list were still allowed to travel on airplanes (like people under police investigation) then I'd agree with you.
Oh sure... (Score:2)
Just because you've been cleared or acquitted doesn't mean you'll think about becoming a terrorist in the future! We're just keeping the rest of the
public safe from your future impure thoughts!
If you look at all those detainees released from GitMo, [cnn.com] you'll find a lot of them, 25%, have wound up being captured or KiAs so it stands to the governments backward logic that once you're on the list, you stay on the list.
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If you look at all those detainees released from GitMo, [cnn.com] you'll find a lot of them, 25%, have wound up being captured or KiAs so it stands to the governments backward logic that once you're on the list, you stay on the list.
Conversely, we can conclude that 75% of them did nothing but happen to be standing in the wrong place at the wrong time? Not counting the illegally detailed child soldiers like Omar Kadr, of course.
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They were all guilty and that kid I know has a suspected background of selling Lemonade to Al Qaida. Do I accept that our government has suspended the rights of GitMo detainees, no, it's wrong but has the current administration done anything about it? Close it in a year? Nope, not done. What about all those trials that Holder said were going to be done of the detainees? Oh wait, that flopped too so while GitMo is an abomination it's going to take a long time to straighten it out and nobody in the Federa
FBI optout program (Score:2)
As official spokesman for the FBI, I wish to inform you that we have implemented a new opt-out program to address your concerns. If you wish to opt out of the watch list, simply let us know and we will remove you from it. Simple, huh?
But we won't stop there. Want to be taken off our list of people who were once on the watch list? No problem! Just say the word.
But maybe that's not enough. Maybe you want to get taken off the list of people who were once on the list of people who were on the watch list. Seems
Good thing, too (Score:2)
It's nice to know this. Eventually we'll all be on the list, and then it'll just formalize what's been the case all along. And hey added bonus then when Wikileaks publishes the list, we all can tell who the truly dangerous people are because they're the only ones with the influence to not be on the list.
Guilty (Score:2)
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Read your history.. (Score:2)
During the French revolution you could be "denounced" then beheaded.
During the 1917 Russian revolution you could be "denounced" then shot or tortured, then shot.
During Stalin's pogroms everybody was denouncing everybody else, they were all shot.
The Nazi's turned government sponsored murder into a form of industry.
Why do you think that older people who have a good grasp of history say that this (Homeland/Security/Terrorism theater) can only lead to Interment camps and execution squads?
If you trust ANY govern
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Why do you think that older people who have a good grasp of history say that this (Homeland/Security/Terrorism theater) can only lead to Interment camps and execution squads?
Because they have a less firm grasp of the slippery slope fallacy?
The one thing that I love about these articles ... (Score:3, Insightful)
The one thing that I love about these articles is that they always bring out the paranoids who believe that we are days away from living in a totalitarian state simply because they have studied certain chapters in their history books and ignored others.
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The USA is not a police state. However, these stories are concerning because of the direction they suggest. Not that dodgy government watchlists are new or somehow confined to the US, but they show what can happen when law enforcement powers are not kept in check.
The biggest problem with these sorts of lists is because there are no working checks or balances, they are very easily abused for political intimidation. Don't think that happens? Of course it happens [dailykos.com]. Democracies are based on the assumption that i
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Absolutely correcto on this.
Unfortunately for the "statists", we will have a revolution at one of two stages and they will be dumped.
#1: Ballot box throws them out.
#2: Physical revolution throws them out.
History books are clear on this. I read those certain chapters and watched all those states that have fallen. Some will fall again and again.
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This [theonion.com] may be relevant.
Welcome to the Corporate States of America... (Score:5, Insightful)
We have you right where we want you, meek and scared. Please leave your Liberty at the door, walk right in, get in queue over there, we'll give you your ID number and your occupational specialty. Then get in that line and we'll screen you with your urine sample to determine whether or not you use any substances that may somehow render your unable to work in our eyes.
It's all about control, folks, and you've lost every shred of it.
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Well, I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free
Just as long as I toe the party line, and carry my ID
So won't you kneel down next to me, so we can begin to pray?
'Cause there ain't no doubt we've lost this land - God help the USA!
(With appropriate apologies to Mr. Greenwood)
You ARE my Subjects: You must submit. (Score:2)
Big brother needs to watch you for the good of all.
Reasonable Suspicion (Score:2)
>the individual must still meet the reasonable suspicion standard in order to remain on, or be subsequently nominated to, the terrorist watch list
Reasonable suspicion includes:
Nothing new here (Score:2)
Local police have forever been retaining records for people that have been detained but found not to be involved, either by investigators or actual court. ( even random traffic stops, other than those invasive slippery slope seat-belt 'enforcement' road blocks, and i even wonder about who's taking pictures of license plates )
They retain in your record statements, pictures, prints, even DNA in many cases.
Racial (Score:2)
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I think you meant Comrade.