HTC Infringed Apple Patents, Says ITC's Initial Determination 230
CWmike writes "A judge at the U.S. International Trade Commission has made an initial determination that HTC infringed two Apple patents, HTC said late Friday. If the judgment is made final, HTC could be banned from importing phones to the U.S. It's the latest blow to Google's Android operating system, which is being attacked by competitors including Apple, Microsoft and Oracle. The initial determination will now be reviewed by a larger panel of ITC judges, who can uphold or reject it. The two patents appear to be fundamental to Android, according to Florian Mueller, a patent expert. 'They are very likely to be infringed by code that is at the core of Android,' he wrote in a blog post. The same patents are also at the heart of a dispute between Apple and Motorola, he said."
Florian Mueller is a dick head. (Score:3, Insightful)
That is all.
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A dick head who's full of crap, too. 5,946,647 at the very least is infringed upon by pretty much all decent phones. (It covers detecting things like phone numbers in text, offering up a choice of actions to carry out on said items, and acting on user instructions to carry them out.) Not just smartphones either - I just checked and my old Samsung dumbphone seems to meet all the required elements of Claim 1. Android might actually be better off than the dumbphones here: they have copy-and-paste, which means
5,946,647 prior art... (Score:2)
6,343,263 is so broad and vague as to be meaningless. It's just talking about creating a
Clear prior art... (Score:2)
6,343,263 just describes creating a hardware abstraction layer, something else which has been done for a long, long time.
This illustrates one of the big problems with the patent system - inventor are supposed to get exclusive rights for a limited time in exchange for describing their inventions so the public can benefit from them. But, patents are written
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The author put in the blurb about Florian Mueller simply as a troll for hits. Give it a rest. We all know Florian's just another dim blogger.
RTFR (Score:2)
Let's RTFR, or wait for Groklaw to dissect the ruling and publish their findings. So far Groklaw have shown Florian Muller tends to sensationalize these issues in a way they look really bad for Android while the opposite is true.
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Didn't know you frequented /. Florian.
I doubt the AC was Florian Mueller, but Florian does have a Slashdot account and did post here: http://slashdot.org/~FlorianMueller [slashdot.org]. It looks like he stopped posting in June after everyone got sick of them.
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In fact, he used to post regularly. I think once he started trolling Android for dollars, he became so deeply hated here that he stopped showing up very often. The perception now is that he's a paid anti-Android/pro-Microsoft(?) shill. Not sure if that's true, but the guy is clearly a bit of a dick.
Patents (Score:5, Interesting)
And the patents (from http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/07/itc-judge-finds-htc-in-infringement-of.html [blogspot.com]) are:
U.S. Patent No. 5,946,647 on a "system and method for performing an action on a structure in computer-generated data" (in its complaint, Apple provides examples such as the recognition of "phone numbers, post-office addresses and dates" and the ability to perform "related actions with that data"; one example is that "the system may receive data that includes a phone number, highlight it for a user, and then, in response to a user's interaction with the highlighted text, offer the user the choice of making a phone call to the number")
U.S. Patent No. 6,343,263 on a "real-time signal processing system for serially transmitted data" (while this sounds like a pure hardware patent, there are various references in it to logical connections, drivers, programs; in its complaint, Apple said that this patent "relates generally to providing programming abstraction layers for real-time processing applications")
I think I violated these patents just reading this article.
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Re:Patents (Score:4, Informative)
The first Blackberry phone came out in 1999. The patent was filed in 1996 and issued in 1999. I don't think it really matters when the first iPhone was conceived.
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My WWIV BBS was auto recognizing and highlighting FIDO net addresses in 1991. My telix client auto recognized certain dowload types and could auto zmodem download with a simple keystroke, also 1991-1992ish.
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Wait a sec. Filed in 1996?
Prior art, from 1993, from Apple themselves.
Newton MessagePad. (In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Apple simply filed that patent late and snuck it past the examiners.)
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BBS != phone.
That distinction, though much maligned here, is actually good. Otherwise the patent would be absurdly broad instead of very specific.
Nope, I've read the first patent and I can't see anything that limits it to phones or mobile devices. "Absurdly broad" looks about right, although IANAL.
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But, do you mean to claim that if I take that patent, word-for-word, and just append "...on a phone." at the end, I'll have a new patent I can then hold over Apple?
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So it looks like the Blackberry infringes as well. Imagine that.
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Note that the patent has nothing to do with mobile devices. It's just a very general "recognize a pattern in data" patent. Seems to me that any syntax-aware programming editor from before 1996 would be prior art.
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Did RIM license this patent? If not then this is a clear case of Laches (equity) [wikipedia.org] and the judge should tell Apple to STFU and stop acting like a scumbag.
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Yeah, and the Newton was doing auto phone number recognition before that.
See? It's a good thing Apple didn't spin off Newton...
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It's a good thing Apple didn't spin off Newton...
It shouldn't matter if they spun it off, the Newton itself constitutes prior art. According to the timeline [wikipedia.org] it was out in 1993. You can't patent something 3 years after it hits the market.
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Yes you can. Your own prior art doesn't disqualify a patent. You can patent something years after products including the concept are on the market if you produced those items.
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No, you can't. [uspto.gov] Companies have at most one year from release to market. The prior art status could even predate the actual release to market as described here regarding the term "on-sale" [japalaof.com].
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only in USA. in euro, you show it and it's public. gotta start patenting before that.
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Your post won't stand up to scrutiny either -- that patent was filed in 1996 before the first Blackberry was conceived.
Having said that, it seems like a fairly obvious patent? I can't say I read the whole thing though... I'm also surprised there's no prior art; the only similar thing I could personally think of was Microsoft Smart Tags and they don't seem to have arrived before ~2000.
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None of your pre-2000 email clients allowed you to click "reply" and automatically used the From: (or Reply-to:) header to determine who to reply to?
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Apparently not. That first patent was filed in February of '96, long before the first BlackBerry came out. It would seem Apple has been planning to screw over the world through patent trolling for a very long time.
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Or maybe they just wanted to protect the 1996 Newton's features. After all, they do occasionally make a product instead of litigating.
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Another question might be when do they expire? It seems like they both might be near that time?
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WTF..
The first patent sound like regular expressions.
If I was making these handsets (or any type of gadget) I might just discard the US market in all an leave them to the patent trolls and focus on the rest of the world.
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'647
"A system and method causes a computer to detect and perform actions on structures identified in computer data.
The system provides an analyzer server, an application program interface, a user interface and an action processor.
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Or in other words - a browser and X.
Analyser server = netscape
API = X
structures in data = html
UI = X
"The analyzer server receives from an application running concurrently data having recognizable structures, uses a pattern analysis unit, such as a parser or fast string search func
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Don't know about reading the article, but submitting that post might have infringed. Notice how Slashdot analyzed your post, found some text that represented a HTML link, and inserted instructions that tell your browser it's one, and that if you right-click said link you'll get a selection of actions. That's very close indeed to claim 1 of the patent; the only catch (though it's a big one) is that the process is split between Slashdot's servers and the user's browser.
TM; DR (Score:2)
(Tagged MuellerTroll; Didn't Read.)
Florian Mueller a patent expert? Really? (Score:5, Informative)
WTH?, Didn't we already established in about every single article written by him that he is a paid microsoft shill trying to create FUD around android? Most of what he writes is BS, as has been proven again and again. I am not saying that everything that we writes should be regarded as BS, although I would ignore it because he already lost all credibility to me, he may eventually write something of value, but to call him a patent expert is just, well, it is enough to get me into rant mode and come post in an article that I should be ignoring. /rant
And I am very sorry for the rant, as I will probably regret it tomorrow, I am off to sleep.
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I have no opinion myself, but, from your link:
This article is written like an advertisement. Please help rewrite this article from a neutral point of view. For blatant advertising that would require a fundamental rewrite to become encyclopedic, use {{db-spam}} to mark for speedy deletion. (June 2011)
So how does this effect the rest of the world? (Score:3)
If this actually gets finalised (right now is just a PR thing) and HTC are forced to make changes does mean that the rest of the world will get a crippled android?
Will they distribute two versions of the software at added cost to them or keep is simpler. (I assume this is legal my internalization patent law knowledge is lacking.)
Could this be how software patents get overthrown when the general public and politicians realise that US sold phones are inferior to what you can get in the third world or china and everywhere else.
Re:So how does this effect the rest of the world? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not sure why you'd think it only affects android. The Patent 5,946,647 effectively says nobody can scan some text and when a pattern is detected offer options associated with that pattern in the display. First thing that springs to mind is that probably every email client in the world is in violation, as they scan the text and turn email addresses into links.
It's a pure software patent, and as such not valid in Europe.
Phillip.
Spell checkers do this (Score:2)
How to leave? (Score:2)
It's a pure software patent, and as such not valid in Europe.
So how do I get out of the United States so as to no longer be subject to this software patent BS?
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Of course it doesn't only apply on android they just picked a politically soft target to use it on because the patent is not likely to hold up indefinitely. I don’t think I assumed that it would be finalised but the on a mobile device wording that allows stuff that was probably to obvious to patented for desktop/server use to get a patent does makes it seem there is a chance that it could be finalised.
Moving beyond a world of patents (Score:5, Insightful)
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Actually old Ronnie was pretty sharp. My favorite quote was "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I'm here to help."
Why we make (Score:3)
The system has become so corrupt and so anathema to everything civilized, decent, and holy, that we make, on our own, in the darkness and safety of the night, purely to remind ourselves that somewhere, the human species has some hope for the future, and that the world is not completely controlled by the greedy and the ignorant.
And the only winners are... (Score:2)
lawyers. Seriously, can we please round these bottom-feeders up and put them at the bottom of Yucca Mountain? Radioactive waste and each other are the only company they're fit to spend eternity with.
Re:And the only winners are... (Score:5, Funny)
lawyers. Seriously, can we please round these bottom-feeders up and put them at the bottom of Yucca Mountain? Radioactive waste and each other are the only company they're fit to spend eternity with.
Good God, are you insane? Imagine the devastation if ten thousand years from now the storage vessel should spring a leak and the area become flooded with a mass of radioactive mutant lawyers.
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"radioactive mutant lawyers"
Do you already have a director attached for this movie? If not, call my office on Monday.
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lawyers. Seriously, can we please round these bottom-feeders up and put them at the bottom of Yucca Mountain?
I'm all for it, but I think we'll have to wait far too long before any radioactive waste actually ends up there. Let's just go with Chernobyl?
Did Apple just lap Microsoft? (Score:4, Insightful)
I think Apple's lapping Microsoft in the douche of the Universe Award. I mean, we still have the swimsuit competition... *shudder* Ballmer in a bikini...
Apple's been getting on my LAST nerve, well, since they went Intel. I'm seriously re-thinking my interest in anything Apple at all. Steve Jobs can sit and spin... The only reason Apple's doing this is because the real threat for their smartphone business is Android phones. I wonder how long it'll take before Apple and Microsoft go toe-to-toe in the smartphone arena...
This fiasco, folks, is why Software Patents are evil.
Re:Did Apple just lap Microsoft? (Score:4, Interesting)
I think Jobs and co. look at the windows phones and laugh themselves silly. They look at android and think, "damn, if google pulls it's head out of it's ass this could be trouble."
patent infringement infinite loop (Score:2)
I suspect that all of these companies infringe on some of another companies patents. This is the beginning of patent wars that may lead to an eventual reform of patent law.
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They have all known this for a long time. That's why all these "defensive patent portfolios" were developed. They were nuclear deterrents. But then patent trolls emerged and destabilized. And things are only now getting started. Now patent litigation is becoming more profitable for some. Microsoft is making more money from Android than from its own mobile OS.
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an eventual reform of patent law
Sadly, it won't work out that way.
Instead, the companies will all cross-licence to reach a stalemate, but with their combined patent portfolios, they will be able to prevent any new competitors arising.
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Sadly, you are correct.
The Sewing Machine Combination [wikipedia.org] was probably the first example of the patent system going insane, resulting in the failure of anyone to innovate or produce the products the market was demanding, and eventually resulted in a small group of patent holders banding together in a licensing truce until the problematic patents
Ban on import? (Score:2)
Since when does patent infringement result in a ban on import rather than a fine and order to pay royalties for the patented item? Is it because HTC isn't a US company?
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Since when does patent infringement result in a ban on import rather than a fine and order to pay royalties for the patented item? Is it because HTC isn't a US company?
A patent is a Government-granted monopoly. You have the right to license or restrict the use of your patented idea - it is the patent holder's choice, not the Courts or the infringer. You can choose to license company A and not license company B, effectively prohibiting company B from selling in your country.
If you're like Apple, and losing market share, then your best bet is to probably eliminate the competition than try to get a few bucks for each phone. The big problem for Apple isn't the loss of r
RIAA, MPAA, USPTO? (Score:2, Flamebait)
I know I'm risking my karma with this, but this subject is just screaming for a rant.
If we can't legally have freedoms anymore, then we'll just have to have them illegally (at least those of us with the backbone to stand up for our rights). Maybe this will be the straw that breaks the patent camel's back. When it becomes obvious that corporations are simply using patents as big sticks to wave at one another and beat down competitors, it becomes just as apparent that patents need to be abolished, not just re
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So sell a blank phone... (Score:3)
If the software is a problem can't they just sell a blank phone without an OS and leave it up to the user to load an OS (which they can download from HTC's Russian website)?
I seem to remember reading that one of the very early 8 bit computers (might have even been the Apple) was having a problem getting it's PSU approved by the FCC or some authority so they sold it without a PSU and the user had to source one themselves.
OTOH... I believe the iPhone comes without iOS loaded and you have to load it via iTunes, so maybe Apple already has a patent on this concept too ;)
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Replying to myself...
If the software is a problem can't they just sell a blank phone without an OS and leave it up to the user to load an OS (which they can download from HTC's Russian website)?
Or do what some games do - release the game without the disputed content then leak a patch (again, via a Russian website :) to put that content back in again.
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On one hand, that would be truly fucking awesome and probably the second best possible thing to happen for the advancement of phone tech.
On the other hand, the market does not want that, and the company that does it will not sell many phones. It's a death sentence.
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Apple to set up manufacturing in US (Score:2)
Apple is in the process of burning a thousand bridges it would seem. Just as Microsoft set itself up as a company no one should trust, Apple is close in following. Suing its suppliers? No one else in that part of the world will want to do business with them either. If they keep this up, they will have to bring manufacturing back to the U.S. And if you think Apple is overpriced now...
Thoughts... (Score:3)
If you want to fix the broken patent system, you have to fight people who have a lot of wealth (power) and a lot of interest in the status quo.
Of course, these same people, wielding their pet corporations, are fighting to keep Government corruption in its current form (the backbone of which is the "campaign contribution" bribery system and it's offshoot, the system of lobbying jobs, speaking engagements, and book deals that serve as a front to pay off cronies at all levels of government), so you can write off using government power as a check against them.
The only way we'll see things change is if these rich, powerful people get too greedy and use their pet corporations against each other (like the story above), in which case our goal is simply to hunker down as much as possible and hope that in the aftermath we can sneak in a little bit of progress.
Things won't change as long as our civilization allows for the concentration of wealth at current levels. The hard part, of course, is deciding an allowable maximum threshold. Soviet or Mao style communism are obviously not the answer, and European style socialism is having some problems (though arguably a lot of those were caused by socialists dabbling in hyper-capitalist market manipulation as a result of meme-contamination from the US). The Canadian style hybrid seems to be doing pretty well, though they've got their own contamination problems making trouble, likely due to meddling by powerful interests afraid of a world run like Canada.
I know, I know, it's an article about patents, but the obvious flaws in the patent system are all simply emergent phenomena, part of a deeper underlying dysfunction that can ultimately be attributed to animals having more power than they can responsibly handle.
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The other thing you can do is boycott all Apple products and encourage everyone you know to do the same. And do the same for any other company that tries to control the market - and where your dollar goes - using the same broken patent system.
Ultimately all large companies make their decision based on the balance sheet, and Apple's products are discretionary purchasing. If people can be made to care about the company's behaviour it will affect whether or not they buy their product or a competitors.
A judge at the U.S. International Trade Commission (Score:4, Informative)
Just to be clear, this guy is not really a judge. He's just a bureaucrat. HTC has the right to contest his decision before a real Federal judge. Unfortunately, their imports will be barred in the meantime, so they might decide to settle even if they think they would prevail in court.
Apple Data Detectors (Score:4, Informative)
This article [miramontes.com] describes ADD, including what its developers considered to be unique and different from other approaches.
My take on this is that ADD did come up with some clever ideas in implementation that solved the particular problems they were addressing (focusing on simple problems and fast detection). It's clear that what's unique is the particular implementation, not the idea of detecting phone numbers and such. They cite lots of other examples of the idea.
So, there are two possibilities. Either the patent covers the idea (and thus is inappropriately broad and will be ruled invalid) or the patent is about the particular implementation, in which case it should be simple to implement in a way that avoids violation. In either case, HTC and Android will be fine.
they did (Score:2)
HTC clearly infringed those patents; the question is why Apple was awarded those idiotic patents in the first place. The patents should get invalidated. And if we had a saner legal system, Apple and the inventors should be charged with fraud for filing them in the first place.
Re:What else is new. (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously. All computer software patents should be voided on the grounds that they are merely expressions of existing mathematical formulae and logic structures and prior art applies as a result. When it comes down to it it's all loops, conditionals, and math placed in an organizational structure or if you go even further.. 0s and 1s.
"My 0s and 1s were first, pay me millions!"
Re:What else is new. (Score:4, Interesting)
I agree but for other reasons:
Software is already protected by by copyrights, having patent protection on software is double-dipping.
Patents on software don't make sense. THE COMPUTER ITSELF IS THE INVENTION and it is by definition, a multi-purpose machine. Patenting techniques you do in a computer is like patenting specific ways of driving a car, or combinations of musical notes.
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What a load of crap. Whilst I don't support software patents, your logic won't help the cause, as it's absolutely invalid.
Why? Hardware patents are only slightly less bullshit than software patents.
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Yeah, so I suppose hardware patents should be invalid because people are just arranging atoms of materials that are available to anyone on Earth? lol.
Re:What else is new. (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly! It's worse in software patents. In hardware you can do something that a competitor does but do it with different hardware but in software if you do some function that a competitor does it doesn't matter that you did it with different code. It's the function that is patented in software patents not the code. The code is of course covered by copyright which renders the entire matter insane to start with. Lets just use copyright to protect software design! How simple! Not to mention fair. We can't have that though it would interfere with stifling innovation.
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People patent an approach or a process. It is important if it is a radical new idea which may help a small company start up. But the problem is too many trivial things are being patented.
The language you write something in is irrelevant, it is the technique that is important. Software patents wouldn't be much use if you could just write it in another language. That would be like saying you could steal someone's book just by translating it into another language.
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Hm, almost. You'd need to peek at the original book to pirate it, You cannot steal somebody's book by reading the title.
On the other hand, banal patents can be implemented, and consequentially infringed upon, by morons who read a short version of their description.
Protecting a process is tricky because on one end a simple refactoring or as you say a different language could be declared different enough, on the other end you have a patent troll asking money for whatever banal solution of a problem.
I'll repe
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Copyright and patents are different things.
You can copyright a particular work (be it a story, poem, song, film, function, class, application or something else) even if the underlying concepts have been around for ages -- for stories, film, tv and manga, just look at things like tv tropes. So you can copyright a particular implementation of an algorithm.
Patents are for unique inventions (something that has not been done before, either in a different form (over the internet! on a mobile phone!) or in a resea
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By the way, I agree. Apple has totally gone off the reservation.
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Cool story bro.
if 5 years we can print phones on our makerbots (Score:2)
and steve jobs will try to figure out what happened.
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cheering for one huge controlling company vs another vs another.
right.
there are no honest or morale companies once you get that big.
its a false choice. they ALL would screw you over - and enjoy it, all the while.
to think of an american mega-corp as 'good' - you guys must have some strong koolaid.
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Heh. Im guessing you dream of one day posting at +2? And they say ths site has a low signal-to-noise-ratio.
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, for me is funny that the same people who wanted competition vs Google (WP7 fans, for example) are the same people who want Android dead...
Who are those fans that you speak of? I would prefer to see WP7 do good (though not quite a fan... it'd have to become better first), but I definitely don't want Android dead.
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MS shills and astroturfers
I'm a Microsoft employee (though not in any official quality here, obviously), but I have an Android phone and an Android tablet. Do I qualify? ~
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Nope, you're disqualified by your sig.
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We just want the irrational fandroids to stop roaming the message boards and posting lots of rubbish about their phones and how having the choice of 99 application stores full of spam apps is really good.
Android as a platform is rather an odd one. I personally want applications to be running native code and not in a virtual machine. Virtual machines don't have a place on a mobile device, it offers absolutely nothing at all to the end user and it about making development easier.
I don't want Android to die, I
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uhm how about no (Score:2)
that would be, you know, WRONG.
Re:Sure they did. (Score:4, Insightful)
They most likely didn't pay anyone. The problem is that Android DOES infringe on those patents. Now, are the patents legal and should they be is another question altogether. And is the patent system completely and utterly stupid is yet another question.
What puzzles me in this is that Google cannot do a thing to help their manufacturers because they have so few patents. Why they didn't buy Nortel's portfolio is well beyond me. This would have been over in a snap.
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15 years is an awfully long time to wait. Laches, anyone?
Burden of proof (Score:2)
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