LulzSec Posts First Secret Document Dump 835
Dangerous_Minds writes "LulzSec has been vowing to expose government secrets for the last few days. Now they have delivered. According to ZeroPaid, LulzSec has posted secret documents about Arizona Law Enforcement. The release has been posted to file-sharing website ThePirateBay. LulzSec says the release is because they are 'against SB1070 and the racial profiling anti-immigrant police state that is Arizona.'"
AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:5, Insightful)
It's anti-illegal-immigrant. There's a difference.
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Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:5, Interesting)
You really are stupid. I live in AZ. My immediate supervisor is 100% ethnic Mexican (and his grandfather immigrated here). His stance? Fully supports SB1070. It's anti-illegal-immigration.
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:5, Insightful)
It's worth noting that Mexicans from more affluent areas, and more central areas in general, often are quite racist against Mexicans from border areas. It isn't hard to find people who immigrated to the US from Mexico City and dislike Mexicans from Tijuana more than white supremacists do.
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:5, Interesting)
As a Mexican, I can say it is true that there are frictions between ethnic groups and geographical regions within the country.
A lot is just stereotype and jokes, like Californians and Appalachians and New Yorkers, etc, might regard each other.
But there is an undercurrent of racism in Mexico, which is not polite to admit in public (People say "this is a country that abolished castes and slavery during its independence war! Of course we are not racists!"), but is true nonetheless.
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:5, Informative)
Yes [wikipedia.org]
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:5, Insightful)
The best way to beat sympathy isn't hate. It's disgust. I read a study [citation needed] that showed people stopped showing sympathy if they were disgusted by the perp's crime. This is, incidentally, why perverts (for whatever the current definition of pervert is) get cracked down on so hard - it's easy to be disgusted by them, so nobody has any sympathy.
If you want to get rid of illegal immigrants, you don't run a hate campaign. It's likely to be illegal, makes you look bad, and may actually drum up a lot of opposition. Accusing Mexicans of being drug smugglers, violent criminals, and terrorists might drum up a bit of fear (and hate), but it doesn't really work.
The best way to persecute people is to drum up disgust. It can be overt (attacking their personal hygiene), or more subtle (attacking their immoral values). Calling mexicans "filthy" has been extremely effective, but it isn't going to fly anymore. The modern day equivalent is calling them tax cheats, freeloaders, and queue jumpers. Queue jumping (at the supermarket checkout, or Disneyland, or any other context) isn't seen as a serious crime, but as a disgusting lack of social nous. Which makes it a far better slur than "drug runner", if you want people to lose sympathy.
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:5, Interesting)
And according to Barbara Coloroso, disgust leads to contempt; contempt leads to a view of inferiority and objetification; bullying follows, and at some point any inhumanity can be justified, because after all, they're less than human. She claims this to be the path that has led up to every major genocide of this century.
I'll stop there before somebody Godwins me, and I'm not trying to suggest that all disgust and contempt lead to genocide or even murder, but I do think it's a road best not travelled.
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Sleeper agents for the British? I hear they're working on their accents so they can invade, rob and pillage only to disappear into the pasty white sea of middle america.
I see...the whole law is Arizona getting a jump on the British invasion, very clever. I thought they were just insanely stupid for building their cities in the desert, but I guess it's because they know the British will be forced to wear pith helmets. That way they can be identified and removed from the country under the new law. Brillia
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:5, Insightful)
it's not worth noting.
and it's very hard to find those people.
it's a lot easier to find people who are sympathetic, but want the law enforced.
someone please mod William Ager and his fantasy land into the ground.
It's quite easy to find Hispanics who are against illegal immigration. Of course, you won't find them on TV. Newscasts are borderline racist in their portrayal of Hispanics as one, big, massive stereotype. They display them as if they are all lemmings who follow whatever the liberal Hispanic "leaders" say.
If you want to know the truth, go to a place where Hispanics are the majority and live there for a few years. I live in such a place. My wife, daughter and best friend are all Hispanic. To be honest, Hispanics are some of the most racist people I've met towards other Hispanics.
It other words, you don't know WTF you are talking about, gringo.
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Hating white ghetto boys but not black ghetto boys is racist. I'm not saying you hate based on the color of skin, but if you do (as your comment suggests you might) then you're racist.
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:4, Insightful)
He won't be so supportive when he gets asked for papers because he is a mexican. The issue with SB1070 is racial profiling. That is the issue.
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:4, Insightful)
He won't be so supportive when he gets asked for papers because he is a mexican. The issue with SB1070 is racial profiling. That is the issue.
You mean like when he gets pulled over and the police man asks for his driver's license? Yeah, that never happens to white people.
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What tool mod'd this down to -1? This is precisely the problem with the law - you can't tell the difference between a legal and illegal immigrant just by looking at them, but that's exactly what the law requires.
Not exactly. The law requires you treat all Mexicans as Illegal Immigrants unless proven otherwise.
In addition, the giant "screw you, liberty" the rabid far right snuck in was the ability for private organizations (read: white supremacists) to sue the police if they don't feel they're harassing Latinos enough.
Reminds me of a "joke" (Score:4, Interesting)
An elder Armanian is lying on his death bed surrounded by his sons and grandsons as he passes on his final lessons:
Remember my children, always defend the jews.
The eldest son asks confused: Why the jews?
The elder answers: Because when they are gone, we are next.
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Have you read the law? you cannot enforce it based on race it has to be suspicion such as not having legal identification.
So. you and all of the other AC's have decided that American is now the country of "Papers Please!"
You cowards. Go move to north korea. In America, land of the free, we don't need no stinkin papers.
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In America, land of the free, we don't need no stinkin papers.
Except if you want to get in or out.
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Yes the US was such a socialist haven in 1882 when it limited Chinese immigration. Or 1921 when Congress legislated immigration quotas for all immigrants. And of course, there were no cries against the drunk Irish immigrants taking all the jobs and leaving Americans unemployed in the late 1800s. Nope, none at all.
So no, that's not the real issue and hasn't been at any point the last 200 years that this has been a perceived problem.
Then again I suppose knowing American history makes one un-American, eh?
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Did you ever stop to think that if the socialists didn't keep trying to turn the country into a "Free Services R' Us" heaven, it wouldn't really matter who the fuck was in the country?
"Give me your tired, your poor/Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free".
Unless they're groups of people who are actualy poor and want to breath freely, ofcourse.
The USA has fallen a long way since it's hopeful beginnings.
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You're comparing yourself against illegal Mexicans. I like to compare the lazy people on welfare and getting food stamps.
The other day I saw a lady with an iPhone using food stamps to purchase party supplies. I will gladly trade her for some hard working Mexicans.
My wife's sister get's food stamps because she has a kid and is a single parent. She hits up the bar every other night, has tons of alcohol at home, smokes a pack a day, gets about $3000 more from her school grants than what it costs to go to schoo
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He may fully support SB1070. Good for him. It's still a bill that is anti-brown people.
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Please read the bill and quote the "anti-brown people" portion of it.
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:5, Insightful)
"A law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state may not solely consider race, color or national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection except to the extent permitted by the united states or arizona constitution"
Page 1, lines 30-34.
Do you really think in a state where brown skin is the majority that cops will waste their time bugging everyone who is brown skinned? We in AZ are aware there are a lot of legal Hispanics here, don't insult us with your assumptions.
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:5, Insightful)
"I didn't even notice he was Hispanic, judge! I swear!" heh heh.
Law Enforcement has NEVER lied to make themselves look better.
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Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:4, Interesting)
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I'm really curious. Legal immigrants, and citizens of Mexican descent sometimes don't have id on them, so what reasonable cause could there ever be?
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What's your point?
I'm all for enforcing immigration laws (though I do believe it should be done at the federal level), but that does not mean stopping people for driving while dark-skinned and asking for their papers is anything less than inherent and frankly disgusting racism, codified into law.
That much I will never support, and I really could not care less if you happen to know a Mexican who does.
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:4, Informative)
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:4, Informative)
Read the damn law. They can not be stopped randomly and checked for immigration status. Only after they are detained for some other reason can they ask for immigration status.
(snip)
Anyway how is this any different than anyone else getting stopped by the police and being asked for identification such as a drivers license?
Except that Sheriff Bubba-Joe has a history of having his officers stop every brown person they see, under the troll logic that "Non-Whites commit more crimes." Usually under the guise of wanting to see their drivers licence. And then, with this new law, they have to PROVE that they're not illegals, or the cop can arrest them on the spot for the crime of "possibly being illegal."
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:4, Informative)
Except that Sheriff Bubba-Joe has a history of having his officers stop every brown person they see, under the troll logic that "Non-Whites commit more crimes." Usually under the guise of wanting to see their drivers licence. And then, with this new law, they have to PROVE that they're not illegals, or the cop can arrest them on the spot for the crime of "possibly being illegal."
Evidently, you've never been to Arizona. Nearly 40% of the police officers there consider themselves to be Hispanic.
So, are you going to change your statement to read "Except that Sheriff Lupe-Jose has a history of..."? Why not? Why is it OK to assume that AZ Police officers are "Sheriff Bubba-Joe" when you thought they were all white and not OK when the Sheriff is Hispanic?
Sorry, buddy, I just proved that you are a racist. You are what you accuse others of. I guess that makes you a hypocrite too.
And you do realize that any cop can pull you over right now, demand to see you license, throw it in the ditch and arrest you for driving without one? He can then beat the crap out of you the back of the car and charge you with resisting arrest. While you lay in the back of his car, bleeding, he can "find" that missing girl's body in your trunk and have you on death row for murder. Why are you not suggesting that we do away with cops? After all, you are against this law because cops might use it to profile, even though profiling is explicitly prohibited by this very law. Why are you not against all laws because any law may be abused by any cop?
And again, you totally ignore that 40% of cops in AZ are Hispanic. Or do you think they are racists too?
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Have you ever been arrested? Have you ever tried to ID yourself when you're in jail, and the jailers think you're someone else? Do people who aren't driving need to carry ID? Is it hard for illegal immigrants to get a driver license? Did the Spanish speaking communities that existed in Arizona before 1840 suddenly disappear? You are a disgrace to this great nation, and an embarrassment to anyone who's lived in it for more than 5 minutes.
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You are not required to present identification to a police officer. If you're driving, of course, that will lead to a rather quick arrest -- but you are still not required to do so. The only thing you are required to do is provide your name. And, for the record, a driver's license would not be sufficient proof. California, among other states, issues drivers licenses to illegal immigrants. "Drivers license please" is not equivalent to "drivers license and green card please" even if you accept a non-exis
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:4, Informative)
The problem is that AZ still requires the police to determine the immigration status of a person by doing little more than looking at them...
But then
The cops have no legal grounds to demand ID of anyone unless they have reason to suspect wrong-doing.
So you have agreed it's reasonable for police to ask for a driver's license for some kind of traffic violation (wrongdoing), right? Given that they don't have one, is it reasonable to ask why they don't have it?
The only way this law would come into play is if the cops already have probable cause to suspect wrongdoing, in your words. It's far different than judging their immigration status just by looking at them.
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All you've done is talk in circles around the fact that the law requires investigation of residency status in cases where it is entirely legal to not have any sort of ID.
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How on Earth can a foreign national be a legal resident without any sort of ID?
Are you freaking kidding? Walking down the damn street does not require an ID yet there are hundreds of reasons for a cop to stop someone doing just that.
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm all for enforcing immigration laws (though I do believe it should be done at the federal level), but that does not mean stopping people for driving while dark-skinned and asking for their papers is anything less than inherent and frankly disgusting racism, codified into law.
Show me where that is written into the law. Someone has lied to you.
For the record, pulling someone over because based on looks is strictly forbidden in the law.
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, many can't distinguish between the two positions. My legal immigrant friends sure can.
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, many can't distinguish between the two positions. My legal immigrant friends sure can.
I am anti-illegal immigrants, but I have a problem with the Arizona law: It can't possibly be constitutional.
Allow me to explain. My mother is a white american who married a latino. I was born in the US, I have citizenship by blood and by place of birth. If I were to visit Arizona, and some cop looks at me, he might decide that he has "probable cause" to ask for papers, because I look foreign. As a result you have a cop that is going to ask an American citizen for papers and jail me if I refuse to comply.
How in the FUCK can you think that's constitutional?
Now, if the law would instead put employers in jail who hire illegal immigrants knowingly, I'd be all for it. That's the problem anyway. If they couldn't get jobs here, the US wouldn't be worth the enormous risk they take crossing the border.
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:4, Interesting)
I find your .sig interesting, given that there were Jews in the Nazis who apparently couldn't distinguish between the positions either. Since this means illegal immigrants are now incapable of appealing to the law against forced labour (which is actually very common in the US), slavery hasn't ended either. Russia has reverted to communism because President Raygun failed to provide support for Gorbechev's reforms. And since American independence was founded on no taxation without representation, taxing these people whilst prohibiting them from enjoying any rights whatsoever is clearly a complete destruction of what American independence actually is.
In short, you're not just a fool, you're a damn fool.
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:5, Insightful)
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
In the UK we managed to get rid of slavery without a war, as did most other places. There are plenty of ex-colony countries that became independent without war. The Nazis rise to power was a direct consequence of WWI and the situation we put Germany in after it (massive reparations, hyperinflation etc.) Communism... Well, you failed in Vietnam and the cold war ended why the USSR collapsed rather than when you defeated them militarily.
So yeah, starting a war rarely improves the situation.
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No, it's not. It claims to be anti-illegal-immigrant, but it's really just white supremacy. Even native-born citizens have been picked up and imprisoned for months because somebody suspected they were illegal. No proof required. There was a case where a guy was imprisoned in...either Arizona or New Mexico. For months. He was forced to work for $1/day to earn the money to purchase a copy of his birth certificate from the federal government to prove he was a legal citizen. (So much for "Innocent until proven
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Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:5, Informative)
The first one is from a published report, ("Jailed Without Justice", published by Amnesty International, page 20, very easy to find if you google it) which lists the original source as: "Testimony of Kara Hartzler, Florence Immigrant and Refugee Rights Project, before the House of Representatives Subcommittee on Immigrantion, Citizenship, Refugees, Border Security, and International Law Hearing on Problems with ICE Interrogation, Detention and Removal Procedures, Second Session of the 110th Congress, 13 February 2008, serial Number 110-80, available at: http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/printers/110th/40742.PDF [house.gov]"
He worked at $1/day, a birth certificate costs $30, so that's at least a month assuming he was working full time every day. Not sure if he would have, I'm not all that familiar with the prison system. Also doesn't count time spent being transferred and such (which ICE does very frequently and without notice). I suppose I did make a slight mistake though in the time, as the original does only say "over a month". And yes, I suppose it would be state, not federal government that he purchased it from, the original doesn't specify.
The second case is from the Summer 2011 issue of "Free For All" published by the American Civil Liberties Union of Pennsylvania. Article was "Pennsylvania's Secret Prisoners". Unfortunately, I'm not finding it available online anywhere, and the name in the article was changed.
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:5, Informative)
I keep up with this stuff pretty closely, and never heard either one of these. Can't find anything that sounds even remotely similar on google. I suspect you're making things up.
It doesn't do anything of the sort, of course.
The requirements for carrying identification/immigration paperwork are exactly the same as the federal laws.
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:4, Informative)
The requirements for carrying identification/immigration paperwork are exactly the same as the federal laws.
Except that this law, and the bigoted environment in Arizona, codify anti-latino racial profiling and harassment. You don't see Canadians or Koreans being stopped citing SB 1070. Because that's not what this law is about.
Amusingly (in the darkly tragic sort of way), the law was actually written by a known white supremacist [splcenter.org] (Kris Kobach, a member of FAIR, a known hate group). He literally handed it off to Brewer's administration to push through. Which she did, because it was an Election year and she needed the bigot vote to keep her job.
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Not sure if you'll see this reply or not, but to back up my claims that in PA you aren't required to show ID...granted, it's a blog, but it's at least a blog of a law office, meant to provide legal information:
http://blog.princelaw.com/criminal-law-blog [princelaw.com]
"The Superior Court has held that asking for identification creates an investigative detention that must be supported by reasonable suspicion."
So as I said, in Pennsylvania, in order to ask for ID, they need reasonable suspicion that you have done something i
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That's what they say, but then, they know the immigration quotas keep the numbers of brown people low.
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Great. Get the fuck out then.
Or, are you a member of the Navajo, Ak-Chin, Cocopah, etc, tribes? Because if not you're a just another hypocritical authoritarian on a bender. Sit down and shut up.
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So I guess as soon as there are enough "illegal" immigrants and they take over the country from you, it's their right of conquest? Right? Right.
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:5, Insightful)
Border Patrol? You mean from U.S. Customs and Border Protection? The Federal Agency? Why are you bringing this up in a conversation about a state law?
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Right, because all illegal immigrants commit crimes. It's not that they're looking to move to a country that's safer where they can work their asses off for less than minimum wage to make a better future for themselves. Nope, that could NEVER be the case.
Re:AZ isn't anti-immigrant (Score:5, Insightful)
Right, because all illegal immigrants commit crimes.
Ahem.
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Right, because all illegal immigrants commit crimes.
By definition. Which part of "illegal" != "commit crime" ?
" A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, WITHOUT A WARRANT, MAY ARREST A PERSON IF THE OFFICER HAS PROBABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THE PERSON HAS COMMITTED ANY PUBLIC OFFENSE THAT MAKES THE PERSON REMOVABLE FROM THE UNITED STATES."
What public offence makes a person removable from the Unites States (apart from being illegally in the US or some other serious crime - which I would hope would compel the person to produce documentation regardless of this law).
The law gives police the right to arrest (not just quest
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2) Every human has unalienable rights and the richest nation on earth has a Constitutional duty to provide them.
Assuming that that's true, why aren't they crossing into China?
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Pay enough and people will do any job.
In GA there is a shortage of farm workers who will accept slave wages.
illegal immigration = modern slavery (Score:2, Insightful)
Nobody seems to ever bring this up, but by supporting illegal immigration you are supporting modern day slavery. Illegal immigrants don't make a proper wage and dont receive any of the protections that their legal immigrant friends enjoy. Stop pretending that this is a human rights issue, its not, its simply a channel to allow businesses to abuse workers. And now I will sit back while people that don't live near the border chime in and tell us that do what the facts really are....
Re:illegal immigration = modern slavery (Score:5, Insightful)
You can't fix slavery with a law that punishes the slaves instead of the slaveowners.
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But of course, the businesses should be punished heavily, but that does not mean that we should not make an effort to stop illegal immigration. We have a process to become a US citizen, if you don't like it don't and take a chance at breaking federal law don't cry to me when you get sent home. Of course with sanctuary cities that never happens here in CA...
Re:illegal immigration = modern slavery (Score:5, Insightful)
Slaves don't vote. Slaveowners do.
Re:illegal immigration = modern slavery (Score:4, Funny)
Where i live, both are. If you get caught employing illegals, you get fined and the illegals are sent back home.
You are incredibly naive (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:You are incredibly naive (Score:5, Informative)
In AZ if you get caught knowingly hiring illegals and you lose your license to do business in the state. Many employers are not willing to take that chance.
Re:illegal immigration = modern slavery (Score:5, Informative)
Where i live, both are. If you get caught employing illegals, you get fined and the illegals are sent back home.
I used to work in Apple Warehouses in Yakima Washington.
One day I noticed a few trucks from the warehouse down the road filled to the brim with Latino workers. They were driving out towards the orchards, away from the other warehouse, which looked absolutely deserted.
I asked my father, who still works as a forklift foreman at the warehouse, what that was about.
"Oh, Evans is getting a surprise inpsection, so they're moving all the illegals out to the field for the rest of the week. They'll have the legals work at the warehouse until the inspectors leave."
"Wait, but isn't it a surprise inspection?"
"Yeah, but they warn them a day or two ahead of time so they don't get caught."
Re:illegal immigration = modern slavery (Score:5, Insightful)
Nobody seems to ever bring this up, but by supporting illegal immigration you are supporting modern day slavery. Illegal immigrants don't make a proper wage and dont receive any of the protections that their legal immigrant friends enjoy.
Ah, that explains why they keep on comin'.
Re:illegal immigration = modern slavery (Score:5, Insightful)
No, what explains that is that wages and work conditions are even worse where they come from. If you want them to stop coming, then you fine the crap out of businesses that fail to properly identify that their employees have their documentation and those that fail to obey the legal requirements regarding workplace safety.
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No, what explains that is that wages and work conditions are even worse where they come from. If you want them to stop coming...
So you want to reconfigure the situation so that these people remain in Circumstance A rather than a somewhat better Circumstance B. You want to do this for... humanitarian concerns?
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Naturally. It's far cheaper to lower everyone's standards of living than to raise them Oh, and chocolate rations are going up tomorrow to half of what they were yesterday.
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By casting illegal immigrants as slaves, you diminish the tragedy of actual slavery. Real slaves don't get paid. Real slaves can't escape their captors or they will face death if they try.
Illegal immigrants make a choice to cross over the border because they can (or at leas
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The ONLY strategy shown to work (by Arizona incidentally) is to crack down on business owners using an illegal workforce.
*That* is the bogus strain of all these laws and crackdowns that no one talks about. No new laws are required... all that is needed is that the government actually enforces and fines businesses. But these people are paying millions to lobbyist firms and election campaigns, so nothing is ever enforced. If these businesses need to break the law to make money then their business model is
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Have you read the amended version of the law? The one that the Governor signed? The "Papers Please" provision was removed due the to fact that they determined that there was no way they could enforce it, nor would most law enforcement in the state actually follow it.
Not for public distribution? (Score:5, Insightful)
Spot on (Score:4, Insightful)
AZPD not particularly corrupt (Score:3)
So.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Do yourself a favour and grow up (Score:3)
"Information's natural state is to be free "
So for example if police or security services have information about a crime to be committed but what to keep it secret so they can catch the criminals in the act , you think they should just make that information public ASAP and if the criminals find out, well too bad eh? At least your moral high ground is intact.
Christ I wish people like you wold grow the fuck up. This is real life with real people, not some fantasy nirvana with idealtistic ciphers standing in f
Doesn't Anyone Notice Something Strange Here? (Score:3)
The info released isn't funny in any obvious context. The press release is certainly not funny and doesn't even try to be. The ASCII gun graphic and the content of the information and press release look like classic anarchist material. Not sure if it's intentional or what but none of this seems directly connected to the personality on Twitter.
Maybe this is the result of the Anonymous/Lulzsec partnership. Maybe Lulzsec is under new management. Maybe the false flag operation has kicked into high gear.
Something has changed. You can tell by the dejavu.
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No Problem (Score:5, Funny)
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In America, the Citizens are the Government.
Re:No Problem (Score:5, Insightful)
In America, the Lobbyists are the Government!
Wake up and smell the coffee. You're living in the past.
How about... (Score:3, Insightful)
Fining the ass off of Employers that are hiring illegal aliens?
Oh, I forgot who has the bigger lobby.
This country is seriously screwed...
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Same old nonsense. (Score:5, Interesting)
Why is it that white people seem to be the most vehemently opposed to any measure to deal with illegal immigration? It's like they're operating from a standpoint of hyper-sensitivity and guilt.
I find it offensive that suggesting that something needs to be done about illegal immigrations leads to a person being branded as a racist. Can anyone explain to me what's unreasonable about keeping people from entering the country illegally? That's the key distinction here: illegal.
My entire family consists of first generation immigrants. My uncle had to wait 7 years for his number to be called because he was coming with his family. And my parents were sponsoring them. I'd say 90% of my closer friends are immigrants and most of them have a problem with illegal immigration. The important thing here is that they all, myself included, came here legally. We followed the process, paid the fees and did whatever was necessary to come here.
So why should someone who felt they didn't want to bother with any of that be given a free ride? And the irony here is that coming illegally merely insures unending hardships. All those illegals who couldn't be bothered to follow the process end up being exploited doing crap work. Had they come here legally they would have had many more options.
My wife, having been in the country one week shy of a year had to pay out of state tuition at the local community college. Now an illegal immigrant enjoys the benefit of paying in-state tuition by virtue of not submitting any paperwork that proves residency. I can appreciate the motivation behind that move, they're trying to encourage illegals to go to school. The problem is, if you're still an illegal when you graduate you're still not going to be able to find work. And ultimately, there really needs to be some level of penalty for breaking the law.
The fact is, however, that there's no way we can realistically deport those already here. We do need to legalize them. But that should never happen before we've addressed the problem of those coming across the border. If we don't do that first we're never going to fix this problem and in fact we'll probably make it worse. It isn't the first time we've tried this.
And the propaganda campaign against the Arizona law was quite effective in how it has misled the American public. It basically mirrors the Federal law already in place and makes it illegal to conduct racial profiling. I found it rather amusing to hear Europeans and the Chinese berate us over the law given that their own immigration policies are much harsher. Hell, Mexico is much tougher on illegal immigrants than we are.
Real fines (Score:3)
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You'd have to read it to know if it mirrors federal law or not.
It doesn't, and you haven't read it.
And after trying to discuss certain issues like whether bus or taxi drivers run afoul of AZ's sb1070 on AZCentral (by "transporting" them), I've determined that people in favor of it are thick and stupid.
SB1070 is bad law badly written.
Also, explain to me what an illegal immigrant looks like, because the last one I saw was German and overstayed her visa.
--
BMO
Re: (Score:3)
Really? And you know I haven't read it how. Damn amazing telepathy going on there. Actually it does, and it includes the relevant parts of case law surrounding the federal law. In turn, meaning that it's a mirror of the federal law, with updated case law changes.
I'm pretty sure that if you walk away from your talking points you'd be the wise for it.
Re: (Score:2)
So you have no problem with native-born citizens being imprisoned for months, where they are forced to work for $1/day to earn the money to purchase a copy of their birth certificate from the federal government? Because that is happening under federal law.
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A state mirroring federal law, is anti-immigrant. I mean seriously here. You have the feds who refuse to enforce the law, you have a state creating a law that mirrors it, and they're anti-immigrant? Hardly. Anti-illegal immigrant indeed and I have no problems with that.
Close! Actually, The Obama Administration has reduced the number of illegals [msn.com] for the first time in 20 years. Contrast to the Bush Regime, which was openly attacked by members of the rabid right for not being hatemongery enough.
Oh, and the Dems re-introduced comprehensive immigration reform [dailykos.com], but don't worry, the Republicans will kill it again, under the "No, we'll need that wedge issue in 2016" theory of government.
Re:Who knew? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Who knew? (Score:4, Insightful)
Bingo. People that support illegal immigration just cant seem to grasp that they are supporting a system that exploits people that have no protection under the law. Also..dont give me that 'jobs you wont do' crap. I will happily pay more for fruit if the worker that picked it was making at least minimum wage and I know a ton of people without jobs that will take *anything* at this point.
This is truly stupid. (Score:4, Informative)
This is truly a stupid thing you've written here. Do you honestly believe that most people who support illegal immigration wouldn't rather be supporting legal immigration? Do you know what comprehensive immigration reform is? It's first admitting that the existing system is wrong and then trying to fix it. That is what supporters of illegal immigration support. They by no means wish to keep it illegal.
Re: (Score:3)
You would pay $5 a Banana or Apple so that "american" workers can do it?
Would you pay $5 for a glass of O.J.?
If the answer is no then you no you won't pay more. Putting legal jobs there would quadruple the costs of picked food(not everything can be done by machine)
What people fail to realize is that American's don't do so many jobs because you can't live off them. 2 people living together each working 60 hours a week on minimum wage jobs can't afford a cheap apartment in something like 80% of the country(
Re:Who knew? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
I will happily pay more for fruit if the worker that picked it was making at least minimum wage and I know a ton of people without jobs that will take *anything* at this point.
The farmer needs someone who knows how to pick fruit quickly and efficiently without damage.
It is not easy as it looks.
These jobs are traditionally piece work and you have to be damn good at them to make any real money,
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
You do realize that the US government is targeting its own citizens for assassination attempts without due process, eavesdropping on its citizens communications without warrants, sending out NSLs with gag orders, starting wars based on lies, starting wars without Congressional approval, ruthlessly pursuing anyone who blows the whistle on wasteful government spending, locking people up with the Material Witness statute with no intent on ever calling them as a witness, kidnapping foreign nationals and sending