Samsung Plants Keyloggers On Laptops 515
Saint Aardvark writes "Mohammed Hassan writes in Network World that he found a keylogger program installed on his brand-new laptop — not once, but twice. After initial denials, Samsung has admitted they did this, saying it was to 'monitor the performance of the machine and to find out how it is being used.' As Hassan says, 'In other words, Samsung wanted to gather usage data without obtaining consent from laptop owners.' Three PR officers from Samsung have so far refused comment."
WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
Worst idea since Sony's rootkit. They should be prosecuted over crap like this.
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Informative)
They should be prosecuted over crap like this.
They will be. Sony got hit with tons of lawsuits, and they weren't using software that could steal your password. This just took corporate big brother behavior to a whole new level of invasive.
Re:WTF? (Score:4, Interesting)
Sony paid over half a billion to settle their FTC lawsuit, and who knows how muchmore for other lawsuits. And that was the little stuff. Because Sony's rootkit made it onto many government-owned computers, the DoJ got pissed with them , and basically said "we're giving you the benefit of the doubt this once that you didn't intend to extract sensitive information from government computers, but keep in mind that penalties for doing so could include a ban on sales of all Sony products in America, and siezure of all Sony assets in America". You'd think that would get everyone's attention.
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Informative)
Wow. [citation needed] much? Let's go down the list, shall we?
1) Not only can I find no evidence of a $500M figure ever having existed before your comment, but if they had made a settlement for a half billion dollars, Sony wouldn't exist today. Their operating income last year was just $342M (source [sony.net]). Fat chance that Sony could survive a $500M settlement hit. By all indications (i.e. because it's not mentioned in their annual filings from that year and there are no followup stories to be found), this did not impact their bottom line in any sort of meaningful way.
2) As for what the settlement actually was, they paid up to $150-175 per customer that damaged their PC in an attempt to remove the rootkit (see here [cnet.com]), plus $5.75M in settlements to various states (source [pcworld.com]). That's it. It probably cost them less than $10M to settle the whole thing.
3) For a quick example of a company that can take a hit like the one you talked about, we all remember the Microsoft EU antitrust case from a few years back, right? The one regarding media players, where they were fined roughly $600M, and had followup fines of roughly $250M and $1.44B, all of which were extensively covered in the news since they were, at the time, the largest fines ever handed down by the EU (more info [wikipedia.org]). But Microsoft was able to absorb the hit. Of course, they could do that since their operating income last year was about $24B (source [sec.gov]), which is roughly 70x that of Sony's.
4) As for your DOJ claims, I can't find anything about government computers being infected (though I wouldn't doubt it) or the DOJ being involved at all. In fact, they never got involved [mp3newswire.net], despite the public outcry and requests that a criminal investigation be launched.
Aside from government computers getting infected, is anything you said true, or are you just routinely off by a few orders of magnitude when quoting figures, as well as prone to making up stories that have little basis in fact?
Re: (Score:3)
Of course, it occurs to me now (always after I hit the Submit button, of course) that maybe you meant yen for your figure. If that were the case, your estimate is pretty close. Hmm...
Re: (Score:2)
Probably worse idea, since, IIRC the Sony rootkit didn't collect all of the data that this keylogger could. Whatever the case is though, still an extremely douchey move, Samsung, and hopefully one they'll be sued to hell over.
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
Worse than Sony's rootkit. Both programs attempt to do something to your property without your consent, but only this one also takes the opportunity to spy on you. They won't be prosecuted, though. At the very worst, some sacrificial lamb from marketing will be fired. American corporate CEOs are above the law.
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Shh, it's better to trash "American CEO's" and "American Coporations" Stop with your facts
Re: (Score:3)
"Facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan during a speech at a convention
Perhaps some of these PC vendors think that people are so used to malware that a little more doesn't matter?
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Informative)
Oh please. Take it from me -- I work for an "American Company" that is completely owned by a Japanese company and is completely run by employees of that same Japanese company. It's a lie. It's a huge lie. It's a lie on the scale of saying "santa claus is real." It's clearly and obviously not the truth.
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Interesting)
If you make a habit of punishing "the CEO", then "the CEO" will be a fall guy hired by whoever actually runs the company. Sony's rootkit got Sony threatened with ending the presence of Sony in America - while America may let corporations slide on many issues, actual espianage involving a foreign corporation and sensitive government data won't be ignored.
Samsung should be very thankful that the US Government in general avoids foreign-built computers out of a strange fear that there might be keyloggoers or similar installed on them at the factory: an idea that many /.ers once dismissed as crazy paranoia, back when Thinkpad shifted to Lenovo.
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Interesting)
There was a title for this in germany before WW1 it was called the
- Sitz DIrector (or Redactor for a news paper) Sitting Director
They has also the "früshtuck director" Breakfast Director
THe first one is the one supposed to go to jail in case of problems, and the second one is usually an aristocrat with a nice title he takes the VIP to breakfast and other "meetings", so the real directors do not need to loose time...
But somehow the IRS equivalent tends to think that whoum ever is making the most money in the company is the one that should go to jail....
(not that it happens very often unfortunatelly)...
So basically you should investigate the money trail and this gives you the "effective CEO" and that person should be the one sued...
About the security of foreing built computers this is b**t ALL computers a build by an handfull of ODM in china, if the US government is not basically trashing the preinstalled software of any sensitive machine to install their own their clueless...
And since they know how easy it was for them to stop various categories of foreing computers they cannot really ignore this...
So buying US computer is purelly lobbying and nationalism...
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Interesting)
That bit of German history is very cool, thaks.
If the final assembly and sale of a laptop is done in the US by a US company, then the government can hold the company responsible for making sure there are no rootkits, in software, firmware, or BIOS. And that is one case in which not just the CEO, but any engineer knowingly involved in espianage, would go to jail for a very long time. They can't hold a foreign company similarly responsible (though they could ban the company from America and sieze all its American assets, which sounds to me like enough of a threat).
Re: (Score:3)
the US Government in general avoids foreign-built computers out of a strange fear that there might be keyloggoers or similar installed on them at the factory: an idea that many /.ers once dismissed as crazy paranoia, back when Thinkpad shifted to Lenovo.
Thinkpads were being built by Lenovo long before they carried Lenovo's branding on them.
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Interesting)
If you make a habit of punishing "the CEO", then "the CEO" will be a fall guy hired by whoever actually runs the company.
True. What needs to be done is, find the corporation guilty, and give it 30 days. Now, 30 days in the slammer is only a slap on the wrist, as punishments go. And of course, you can't actually put the corporation in the local jail, but you can put it under "house arrest". Send the marshalls around to padlock their premises, and freeze their bank accounts for 30 days.
The economic consequences to the corporation would be vastly greater than any fine that could be levied. But nobody worries about other criminals who won't be able to meet their financial commitments if they do a stretch in the workhouse, so why should we worry about that when it's a corporate "person"?
Re: (Score:3)
Congratulations, you've just made everyone who works at that corporation, everyone who depends on that corporation's product, everyone who owns stock in that corporation, a willing, an *enthusiastic* accomplice to whatever crimes they may commit. Because they sure as hell won't want the corporation to ever be convicted of it.
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
That isn't a bad thing. It means the company will have trouble attracting quality talent unless it develops a system and policy to NOT do things like install root kits on computers. If you work for a company that does bad things, and you pay a price, you might want to go work somewhere else, or risk paying that price.
Is it "fair" to all the low level employees? Maybe not, but it will be effective in protecting the general public, which means it is worth the price, since it creates an incentive for companies to NOT be asshats and install root kits on devices.
What is fair is that companies (and shareholders) pay a price for breaking the law. This is the only way you can pressure stockholders and employees to pressure their management to do business in a fair and honest way, by having a "price" for not doing so.
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
Draconian solutions remind everyone of their personal responsibility. Rest assured that if investing in corporations that break the law came with actual monetary costs, pretty soon people would be avoiding the stocks of those corporations like the plague. And nothing of value would be lost.
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Interesting)
How many innocent investors and employees are you willing to punish for the malicious actions of a few?
They don't get "punished". Criminal behavior often hurts innocent bystanders, are you saying that somebody with a spouse and three kids should be exempt from jail because to jail them would hurt their dependents? Hell, the investors will be hurt if the corporation makes a marketing blunder, why not if the corporation commits a crime? Yes, it's unfortunate. Maybe we should give the investors and employees standing to sue the corporation for any damages they suffer.
What if the company provides a vital service to its customers?
What if I provide a vital service to my customers? Does that mean I should be exempt from jail?
Re: (Score:3)
Flip it around... if you go to jail, would that vital service be lost? If so, there's a problem.
Why should the people who may depend on that vital service, which may include many hundreds of thousands of people, or even millions, suffer because of your actions?
I'm not saying that under no circumstances can any innocent people be inconvenienced or put out by the actions of another guilty party... I'm just saying you need to put it into perspective and consider the total damage to society as a whole tha
Re:WTF? (Score:4, Interesting)
These are good arguments for why big corporations are unmanageable. Too big to fail, too big to punish, too big to hold accountable.
Perhaps we should stop allowing the the government to protect these giant corporations.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
Innocent? Ignorance does not make one innocent.
Sure, tough shit if you work for a tiny company where the owner gets thrown in jail for 30 days. You probably won't be able to do your job. But the law doesn't care about that when it's one guy. Why should it care about it when it's a corporation who otherwise has the same legal privileges as a person (and in many cases more)?
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Sony America and Samsung America are actually separate financial entities. They can be sued in one area and not another for example they can be sued in the U.S. but the same suit may not apply to the EU.
I wonder if they are doing this with their phones also?
Re: (Score:3)
Sorry, typed that wrong. Meant "In America, corporate CEOs are above the law." Applies to any and all CEOs, if the company is big enough. Have any banksters, from any country, been prosecuted in America for any crime relating to the recent depression?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Umm, yea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff [wikipedia.org]
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-30/ex-taylor-bean-official-ragland-to-enter-plea-in-1-9-billion-fraud-case.html [bloomberg.com]
And this dude is in court right now
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raj_Rajaratnam [wikipedia.org]
Theres alot of cases going on, have ended in pleas if you just google.
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Funny)
http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html [blogspot.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Welcome to my shitlist, Samsung. I believe you already know Sony. I'm not sure if you've met Belkin. I'm sure you'll all become friends.
Re: (Score:2)
What's Belkin's deal?
Re: (Score:3)
Inserting ads into http streams in their routers.
Re: (Score:3)
Now, on the other hand, it would be rather easier to hide the exfiltration of data gathered by a camera that was prominently trumpeted on the box as being related to a feature of some sort(New 'Dynadjust'(tm) technology automatically optimizes Your HD Home Theatre Experience, in
Re: (Score:2)
Re:WTF? (Score:4, Interesting)
-
I'd like to see Samsung get into big trouble over this because it is inherently wrong, at least that's my position, but I am less sure if they have broken any actual laws. Maybe some digital eavesdropping provisions that are only allowed to be done by governments have been breached but I can see Samsung weaselling out of that one. There's probably a disclaimer in 5point font 100 pages into the agreement that the buyer agrees to by opening the box.... of course that's wrong too. Oh where to start...
Re: (Score:3)
Unfortunately, that wouldn't fix the problem. Just as they're now lobbying for the right to pass of HFCS as "corn su
Jail time, not just a fine... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
For people there is jail time, but for corporations there is "gross negligence". I hope it's not the same /.ers calling for criminal law for corporations and complaining about McDonalds being fined to much for serving cofee at a needlessly dangerous temperature.
The "chance of profitability" is a very legitimate concern, and is countered in law by extreme fines when a company crosses a line that would be criminal if a person did it. According to TFA, Sony paid $575 million to settle just one of the lawsuit
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
He's saying this is this is lame. the real shiza is in the chip.
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Yes they should, it is a felony after all.
Technically it isn't. It is a felony to gain unauthorized access to someone else's computer, but there is no law against installing this sort of software before the computer is sold.
A car analogy: I can't break into your car to install a GPS tracking device, but many new car manufacturers install devices with similar functions at the factory, eg. GM's ONSTAR system.
Boycott (Score:5, Insightful)
Let them know their behavior isn't appropriate. Don't buy their product, and let everyone you know why you don't recommend buying their product.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
A boycott is incredibly inadequate. The computers have already sold. The market didn't have this information at time of sale. And it doesn't have this information about any other product.
The answer is criminal charges for wiretapping, amplified by the number of units shipped. Throw the CEO and their corporate council in jail, and I suspect it won't happen again.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
False dichotomy (Score:2)
There's no need to choose between boycotting the manufacturer and criminal prosecution. Both are available to all of us and both should be used.
"The computers have already sold" makes it sound like future sales with keyloggers are impossible. Samsung is not the only organization who can do this either.
Re: (Score:2)
Samsung:
Net income US$ 13.8 billion (2009)
Unless you know a few billion people, its not really going to work.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, I think it might be difficult to get a few billion Americans to join in on a boycott...
Free Disaster Recovery (Score:4, Funny)
I had a longer comment, but my machine crashed before I was able to submit. Just read it back at http://logger.samsung.com/mhassan/20110330log.txt
Only one case? (Score:5, Insightful)
A quick search didn't turn up any other reports of this besides discussion pointing back to the linked Network World article. Considering it seems very easy to detect (an SL folder in the main windows directory, accompanied by an automatic uninstall program?) it seems like people wouldn't have any trouble finding it if it is there. Anyone have any confirmation? Anyone besides Mr. Hassan finding this on their new Samsung?
Re:Only one case? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Only one case? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
If only this could get posted to a forum full of thousands of angry nerds. Oh wait! Slashdot: get on this, please.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes I'd like to see something a bit more scientific than "I bought two, and after setting it up they both had this program." Firstly, a scientific approach would take a byte-for-byte image of the hard drive before booting the machine even one time. That means you can investigate exactly the state of the machine as it arrived. Who knows? Maybe he was unlucky and using a dodgy network and someone on his network was injecting the software onto his machine some time after bootup?
Secondly, I'd like to see a pack
North v South (Score:2)
little bit early? (Score:2)
i looked at the date... March 31st. so close.
so now i'm not sure whether to believe this or not.
i'm'a gonna watch and see if anybody else in the world of Samsung laptops finds the same thing. i'm sure many are searching for it now.
Re: (Score:2)
If this is a joke, it is begging for a libel suit. I mean, financial damages much? And it's not very funny. I'm waiting for confirmation, but it doesn't look good.
Now I feel justified (Score:2)
I get the feeling that my disabling all those update services that my HP and Toshiba laptops are bundled with can be justified better now. It's not just a performance issue anymore, but a security one. How much longer till others come forward and admit they've been doing the same?
I've never fresh installed a new laptop on purchase day unless other than for business purposes, but this is getting scary.
Re: (Score:2)
I get the feeling that my disabling all those update services that my HP and Toshiba laptops are bundled with can be justified better now.
You need a justification for configuring your own computer the way you like it?
BP's lost laptop (Score:2)
verified? (Score:2)
any other sources on this, it seems an incredibly stupid thing to do for a non-microsoft company.
Samsung and Sprint do this with Android phones too (Score:5, Informative)
Extremely Sceptical (Score:5, Insightful)
OK - we have a keylogger that is plainly visible in the windows directory on his machine and.... that's it. Where is the rest of the evidence? It phones home - I presume he has wireshark traces in the acticle with IP addresses that are owned by Samsung.... Nope. Any network traces showing the activity? .... Nope. Naturally he bought another laptop and, without attaching it to any network, discovered the same keylogger.... Nope. Now he has announced this lots of people have looked at their Samsung laptops and found the keylogger... Nope.
But wait - he has the admission of the company itself! Well, actually, a junior helpdesk driod who probably had no idea what he was actually talking about and was just agreeing with him to get him off the phone. Because the alternative is that every junior helpdesk droid in Samsung knows about the highly illegal secret keylogger that is install on every laptop, but none of them thought "I'm tired of being a helpdesk droid, I think a class action suit is a better way of making a living".
There is also nonsense statements - "the keylogger is completely undetectable": Really? Apart from the c:/windows/SL directory, the entries in the registry and everything else that will make any sensible AV product go beserk that is.
Re:Extremely Sceptical (Score:4, Insightful)
If this is part of the standard install it should be easy to duplicate and with the publicity this is sure to generate it's likely to be attempted.. personally I'll wait for a technical person to comment on this and more importantly provide the details rather than "After an in-depth analysis of the laptop, my conclusion was that this software was installed by the manufacturer, Samsung" (that's not good enough imho).
Re: (Score:3)
Monitor performance? (Score:4, Interesting)
This is not believable. (Score:3, Insightful)
I mean, literally, unbelievable. I do not believe it. And anyone else who believes it without some proof apart from what this dude says, is a god damned moron. Apparently that's most of the people in this thread.
(The fact that someone at Samsung seems to have "confirmed" it just means that someone got hold of an idiot somewhere and he said some stupid crap, probably without even understanding what he was saying.)
no logger after all... Re:This is not believable. (Score:3)
Samsung 'keylogger' is a GFI VIPRE antivirus false-positive [zdnet.com]
Excerpt from link:
I’ve confirmed that the ‘keylogger’ that Samsung was accused of shipping with certain notebooks yesterday by NetworkWorld is, in fact, a false-positive result by GFI VIPRE antivirus software. Replicating the false-positive is easy simply create an empty folder called SL in the Windows folder and scan it.
it's all a lie. (Score:5, Informative)
Utter bullshit (Score:5, Informative)
False positive from a rarely used AV package - detects the same thing in an empty folder on a clean machine.
http://www.f-secure.com/weblog/archives/00002133.html [f-secure.com]
It must be INFORMED consent (Score:3)
Re:Without obtaining consent? (Score:5, Informative)
They can put anything they darn well please into the EULA, it doesn't guarantee it to be binding or legally enforceable.
They could sneak a line in somewhere in the middle of page 28 of 45 that says by using this software you're required to send them a check for $500. It would be very hard to enforce.
The practice of installing hidden software like that already has been condemned by the FTC. (from TFA: In the words of the of former FTC chairman Deborah Platt Majoras, "Installations of secret software that create security risks are intrusive and unlawful." (FTC, 2007).) So they're probably going to get hammered on this. And rightfully so.
Usually when their legal department refuses to reply when you're requesting comments before someone goes public, it's because they're busy batoning down the hatches and polishing up their resumes.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
batoning down the hatches
It's "battening down the hatches" [thefreedictionary.com], though you might legitimately feel the urge to baton Samsung right now.
Re: (Score:2)
Consent implies the person giving consent is aware of what they are agreeing to. If I mumble, "if you ask me 'what?', you agree to immediately pay me a million dollars", and you ask me, "what?", that does not mean you actually agreed to pay me a million dollars.
Stop it (Score:5, Insightful)
If you don't get outraged when outrageous stuff happens, then don't be surprised when more outrageous things happen. It's your own damn fault for not standing up for what's right.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
...not to claim him, you, or myself more right or righteous. But, I often find when I stand up for the rights of myself and others, I usually end up standing alone. ...with a few shoe prints and knife blades in my backside for good measure.
Did you ever get the feeling that the reason the things in life that suck are allowed to continue is because so many people want it that way?
Re:Oh say it isn't so... (Score:5, Insightful)
"Meh, corruption isn't news, stfu" == "give me more corruption", in the end.
If you don't get upset over these sort of things, you just invite more. Sure, making a fuss won't necessarily stop it from happening again, but remaining silent certainly won't.
And we do this how? (Score:5, Insightful)
How do you recommend we install a clean copy of Windows, short of buying your own copy for $189.00? PC manufacturers don't even include a "recovery disk" any more, let alone a copy of the OS you just bought and paid for. Not that I disagree with you at all, but the average consumer isn't going to buy their PC for $500-1200, and then cough up $200 for a clean copy of the OS, and then another couple hundred to find someone to wipe and install it for them.
Re: (Score:2)
I never would recommend an installation of Windows, but if you are going to do it a retail copy would be the way to go.
Otherwise don't be surprised to find all kinds of crummy software and maybe even crap like this installed.
Re: (Score:2)
I never would recommend an installation of Windows, but if you are going to do it a retail copy would be the way to go.
Otherwise don't be surprised to find all kinds of crummy software and maybe even crap like this installed.
No, I think it's appropriate to be surprised that a major corporation like Samsung includes a keylogger with their computers. Crapware/bloatware is one thing, but a keylogger goes far beyond reason. In fact, it's not just unreasonable, but is quite likely criminal.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, in my case it's simple as I use Linux for everything nowadays - I do still have a Win XP partition on this laptop, as it makes it easier to support my Dad when he gets problems, but I never use it.
If I was buying a new laptop and needed Windows on it then I'd 'obtain' one. It isn't software piracy as I already own the license through buying the hardware with the COA on it, so it's not illegal. The only problem is that you would still need to download the hardware-specific drivers from Samsung's webs
Re: (Score:2)
*reads post*
*looks at my 2008 dell laptop*
*looks at the bundled vista installaiton cd [not os image, actual installation cd]*
*reads posts*
*shakes head and keeps reading*
Re: (Score:3)
Dell is pretty good. I got mine in 2008 as well with installation media. I would hope they still do that. I don't think many other vendors include it.
Honestly, we are in such a huge scam. When buying a computer, we are forced to pay Microsoft for an operating system we may not want (good luck purchasing a blank PC*), and even after having purchased it, we often don't get the actual CD so we just paid for a one-time OS that needs to be re-purchased to install a "clean" copy.
Of course, Windows is included in
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
There are even several legit places to get the install DVD image. It's the license key that MS is really concerned about, not the bits. You can also use somebody else's DVD just fine, even if it's for a different edition (so long as it's for the correct architecture).
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh yeah, that's a great way to avoid keyloggers.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Take it to a Microsoft Store nearby and they will install a clean copy of Windows as long as your machine has the license code that it shipped with
A Microsoft Store? Son, you're just a tad confused.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
There's no such thing as a clean copy of Windows.
Re: (Score:2)
I know. I felt like I crawled through an old chicken coup with the last install.
Re: (Score:2)
Macs don't come with a lot of crapware, they work just fine with the default OS instillation.
Re: (Score:2)
If you are trying to make an argument that poorly written proprietary Adobe software is an industry standard, the industry is in worse shape then we thought.
Re: (Score:3)
Exactly. Who on earth uses the default OS installation these days?
Um, pretty much everyone. Unless you are going to be putting on a completely different OS (like Linux), very few people are going to go through the effort. Even most geeks will just uninstall the crapware instead of going through a full re-install.
They're filled with crapware and even if not, are completely untrustable.
Not Macs.
On any new machine, you have to scrub the disk down and reinstall your own OS from scratch. I thought that was kinda computer-101 stuff these days.
That's not even Geek 101 stuff.
Re: (Score:2)
I'll try.
Does Samsung have some sort of mass key-logger analysis software that can correlate keystrokes with arbitrary activity? How else would they make use of thousands or potentially millions of key-logger streams? If so, from whom did they get it? The most plausible source of a key-logger analysis system is either a criminal outfit or an "intelligence" organization (assuming you draw distinction between the two.)
Is it possible that the tech support guy just made up this 'monitor the performance of th