Unique ID In India Causes 'Fear of the Beast' 725
bhagwad writes "India's attempts to tag everyone with an ID number has run into a roadblock is some Christian villages. Apparently the villagers fear they will be associated with the devil since according to the Bible, everyone having the 'mark of the beast' will go to hell. These people are not afraid of punishment. They relish this opportunity to prove their faith because the Bible also proclaims that they will be persecuted."
Blah (Score:4, Insightful)
Uneducated (Score:5, Insightful)
If you meant that it takes years of indoctrination before a normal human being is willing to let other human beings tag him like an animal, then yes, I suppose these people need more "educating".
They may be wrong about WHY consolidated power is dangerous, but they are absolutely correct that it IS dangerous.
Re:Uneducated (Score:5, Insightful)
And regardless of who wrote these religious texts (divine inspiration, folk story, philosophers or old fashioned kooks), it is really interesting that someone as acknowledged and feared the idea of someone taking authority over and tagging the population for literally thousands of years.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Just FYI, the guy who wrote that was most likely on some Middle Ages equivalent of LSD. It's a single throwaway line in a book full of random shit; the fact that what he said just barely manages to be relevant right now is more coincidence than anything else.
If you throw enough shit at a wall, at least some of it will stick. That doesn't mean it's glue.
Re:Uneducated (Score:4, Informative)
Kind of. It was political allegory pointed at the Romans, and unsurprisingly, some of it has slight social relevance today.
Oh, and it was written far before the Middle Ages. References in then-contemporary writing place it at least before 200 AD, and it might be as old as the Gospels.
Re:Uneducated (Score:4, Insightful)
It wasn't intented to be a fantasy trip, but an obvious metaphor for people and governments around in the time of the author, warning of things he expected to happen in his lifetime *and many of them did). Of course, if you make your prophesy obscure enough, it will keep matching random events, but the intended timeframe for the predictions is long past.
The only reason is seems mysterious is that almost no one understands the referents. If I made an allusion to "the Beast of Redmond" it would be obvious to many /. readers, but it would seem very odd 1000 years from now.
Got news for you... (Score:3, Insightful)
...human beings are animals, no more and no less!
Re:Uneducated (Score:4, Informative)
It's equally reasonable that the Beast was an idea shared by 7 rulers (an idea like communism, or some other great evil). The "number" is almost certainly 616, not 666, and IIRC it's the "number of his name", the once-secret trick of assigning numbers to each letter of a name and adding them up in a certain way (kabbalism that used to be seen as real magic, but was commonly done in my highschool to see if lovers' names matched). Your key point, of course, was that everyone would wear the same mark, not a different mark for each, which makes this worry a bit silly.
But of course the book was about the political stage at the time it was written, and the events described came to pass (or not), shortly thereafter. Time turns prophecy into history.
Educated, not crazy and not afraid. (Score:4, Interesting)
I believe I am well educated with some extensive study in Eschatology.
The Mark of the Beast is interesting and whether you are Premillennial or Amillennial you can find issues with the Mark of the Beast.
I, personally, am mostly indifferent. Mostly.
Here's where the concern is and will continue to be: buying and selling goods. I must make a living. I must pay my taxes. I'm okay with this. What happens when I won't accept an ID chip in my hand or cell phone?
As a citizen I am no longer "free". I pay my taxes but I can't buy or sell without these shackles?
Once a government is able to completely restrict the buying and selling, the means in which I survive, they have become oppressive and abusive. They must be overthrown.
If you think it doesn't matter or this is an unimportant step then we can Godwin this discussion.
And no, I'm not afraid. I won't bow down to another god or man. If the next President says we must bow down to him or his god(s) I will refuse.
Personally I think Christians (practicing their faith in "loving others") are the best kind of citizen one can have. They follow the just laws, they pay taxes and help their fellow men.
Re:Educated, not crazy and not afraid. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Educated, not crazy and not afraid. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Educated, not crazy and not afraid. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Educated, not crazy and not afraid. (Score:4, Insightful)
But I [Christ] tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.
Re:Educated, not crazy and not afraid. (Score:5, Interesting)
Most Buddhists are like Christ, and there are a bunch of those around.
Re:Educated, not crazy and not afraid. (Score:5, Interesting)
China rolled into Tibet, slapped the Dali Llama in the face, stole his country and kicked his ass out, and he hasn't gone all Che Guevara to get it back. Or those Vietnamese monks that burned themselves alive to protest the war. Although, if you were to walk up to a Rinzai master, he'd probably cold-clock you with a stick, laugh, and tell you when you understand only then will you be enlightened.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
$5 on the monk.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
And what, in your expert opinion, was the context of the similar commands to offer someone your cloak as well if they demanded your tunic or to carry bags two miles if they demanded you carry them one?
Ok, I’ll just tell you.
A tunic was a lightweight, loose garment; a cloak was heavier. In Jewish law & tradition, you were permitted to take someone’s tunic as security for a debt. You could not, however, take their cloak and keep it beyond nightfall as it would be cold and they would need it. (
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Where'd you get that from? Baidu?
Re:Educated, not crazy and not afraid. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Educated, not crazy and not afraid. (Score:5, Insightful)
more like a noisy and obnoxious minority of a community.
anytime you try to associate a trait with a group you're probably oversimplifying the truth.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, and this applies equally well to the comment by the AC who said:
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This is denouncing so-called "Christians" who don't even fit the base definition of being a Christian as defined by their book
Well, those guys say that their book has a definition that doesn't match yours. Why should I believe you over them?
And, yes, I've read that book. It's so vague and self-contradicting that, with a bit of a stretch (which both sides - Bible-thumping fire-and-brimstoners, and God-loves-everyone turn-the-other-cheek hippies - are guilty of) can be made to fit either way.
This is even leaving aside the issue of who defined the book (which is really a collection of texts, and we know full well that not all of the
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Educated, not crazy and not afraid. (Score:4, Interesting)
I lived in Alabama for a long time, and I can say that yes -- a majority of Christians there *do* metaphorically beat down the doors to science classrooms. The Baptist megachurch in my neighborhood showed up to my high school with pamphlets supporting young-earth creationism. I was thrown out of a Methodist Sunday School for inquiring about how Big Bang cosmology fit into Genesis (hey, I was six, and yes I was an odd little kid). I worked at a Presbyterian church for a long time that fired their pastor and changed Presbyterian sub-denominations because the Presbyterian Church (USA) wasn't homophobic enough.
The only major groups of Christians I encountered in Alabama that weren't the sorts of nutters you describe were the United Church of Christ (but not many of those) and the Episcopalians. I didn't have much contact with the Lutherans (there weren't many of them) so I can't speak for them.
At least in numbers, a plurality of Christians in the South are Southern Baptists, and they're nutters.
It's not the same elsewhere. But down in the crotch of the Bible Belt, it's scary.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The trouble with religion is that only God can say who's being a true Christian, and he's not saying.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes I would agree with you that we lost liberty a long time ago but there are degrees of liberty and there is no reason to keep going in the wrong direction. As for your examples, yes I disa
Re:Educated, not crazy and not afraid. (Score:5, Insightful)
Except that they don't. At least, no more than anybody else. Possibly less, actually.
In the US, Christians are about 80% of the population, but over 90% of convicted criminals.
And churches pay no taxes. Those who give money to churches get tax breaks for doing so. Assuming Christians also give to actual charities as much as everybody else does, that would mean they actually pay less taxes.
As for the "Mark of the Beast", we've had this in the US for a very long time now. Every citizen of the U.S. is given a unique ID number at birth. A number which you need in order to get a passport, or drivers license, or credit card. So we're already regulating the buying and selling of property without it. And have been since before most of us here were born.
Re:Educated, not crazy and not afraid. (Score:5, Funny)
In the US, Christians are about 80% of the population, but over 90% of convicted criminals.
That's because everyone seems to find Jesus in prison. (ergo, he must be in there too.)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Could it be that Christians are very active in prisons, and that convicts (who have little to lose) are more than happy to "turn to God" to make early parole?
WOW (Score:4, Insightful)
Personally I think Christians (practicing their faith in "loving others") are the best kind of citizen one can have. They follow the just laws, they pay taxes and help their fellow men.
History class: apparently [wikipedia.org] you [wikipedia.org] never [wikipedia.org] showed [wikipedia.org] up [wikipedia.org]. Ever [bbc.co.uk].
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I hate it when people say this because it justifies the most annoying fears of technology when the Bible doesn't actually say that technology is bad. You make the classic mistake of failing to consider the old testament when analyzing something written to people who would have considered the Torah as central to their lives.
Specifically:
Deuteronomy 6-8 (NAS)
6"(A)These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart.
7"(B)You shall teach them diligentl
enjoy the show (Score:4, Insightful)
I am just sitting back, enjoying the show: religion versus state, no matter who loses, I win.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
It's not education. It's critical thinking.
The least educated can possess it. And the most educated may not (Arthur Conan Doyle being but one example).
Re:Blah (Score:5, Insightful)
>>>Always good to see uneducated crazies are all over the world.
Always good to see people who are intolerant of Christians. If you can be tolerant of gays, and tolerant of people speaking ideas you disagree with, why can't you be tolerant of Muslims, Jews, and Christians too? They have as much right to "pursue happiness" as anybody else, even if you disagree with their religious philosophy.
Maybe it's because gays just want to enjoy the same rights that you enjoy; whereas Muslims, Jews and Christians want to remove the rights they feel disagree with their beliefs.
Their right to "pursue happiness" stops when they try to impinges on the rights to pursue happiness by others.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Marriage (unless you are in one of the few places that allows same sex marriage).
Re:Blah (Score:5, Insightful)
You assume the GP has it. He doesn't, for instance, if the person he loves is a minor, an octopi or his own sister.
And before you reply "but that'd be disgusting!" be aware that the same can be (and has been) said of homosexuality as well.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If legal perks are what you want from marriage, just find a suitable partners and there you go.
The lesbians could marry the gay guys (consummation optional). Then they could have their gay affairs with permission from their "spouses". So far they aren't convicting the heterosexuals for adultery.
If the legal perks aren't important, isn't this marriage stuff considered "old fashioned" and anachronistic by all the "modern thinking" bunch
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So let me get this straight. You want to be treated with respect but you refuse to treat others of faith with respect because someone else did something that offended you and they just happened to be theists also?
You're probably a logical thinker, but sir that's illogical and pretty much the definition of intolerant.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Blah (Score:4, Interesting)
I encourage you to attend some midwest political meetings and canvas them for religious beliefs. It will open your eyes to what your fellow theists believe and are trying to push onto the rest of the population.
Break It Down (Score:3, Interesting)
The gays aren't knocking at my door, telling my children that they are going to burn in hell forever.
Okay, define how this is intolerant. Are they killing your kids if they do not convert? You always have the option of shutting the door if you don't like it.
They aren't shooting abortion doctors.
How many abortion doctors have been shot by self-described Christians? Less than a dozen (which I would say is still too much). And true Christ
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Hold on. You're doing two things wrong here. First, you're changing the definition of, "tolerant," to, "acceptance," or, "agreement." Second, you're lumping together totally different groups of people.
Nope, I'm not. I don't care what they believe in private.
The gays aren't knocking at my door, telling my children that they are going to burn in hell forever.
Okay, define how this is intolerant. Are they killing your kids if they do not convert? You always have the option of shutting the door if you don't like it.
No, they are applying social pressure to my kids. They are attempting to impose irrational fears of punishment in order to sway my childrens' beliefs. And I can't "shut the door" when the pressure is coming from authority figures like teachers(66% of the teachers in my children's school are practicing Christian preachers, and I have video-taped them pushing religious dogma in school).
They aren't shooting abortion doctors.
How many abortion doctors have been shot by self-described Christians? Less than a dozen (which I would say is still too much). And true Christians condemn these acts (that whole Sixth Commandment and all).
How many have been shot by non-Christians in this country? How many
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You're in here stereotyping theists as irrational, delusional, bigoted murderers and suicide bombers, and at the same time decrying their supposed intolerance?
Do you honestly not see the irony of this?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You can without a doubt easily prove that the world is older than 4,000 years, yet there are many Christians that will tell you otherwise.
This should be good. How do you intend to prove that the world actually is older than 4,000 years (shouldn't that be 6,000?), as opposed to simply appearing older? The appearance of age is inevitable, and proves nothing. These Christians are not claiming that the world came about by natural causes within the last few thousand years, you know. There is no way to disprove creation ex nihilo, whether it be four billion years ago, four millennia, or four minutes.
That, of course, is the whole problem—once
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Did you think I'm using the royal "we" for fun?
That's silly... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:That's silly... (Score:5, Interesting)
Everybody knows those grocery store "loyalty cards" are the real Mark of the Beast!
I've always wondered: If you have more than one "loyalty card", does that make you a traitor or just a whore?
Re: (Score:2)
yes.
Re: (Score:2)
I've always wondered: If you have more than one "loyalty card", does that make you a traitor or just a whore?
Both - you've already whored out your privacy for illusory cheaper prices [nocards.org] with the first card.
Re:That's silly... (Score:5, Interesting)
That's why years ago I started using loyalty cards with other people. By my count now we have probably a hundred different people on one card alone.
Other than the supposed savings (they're are an illusion just like you pointed out) you maybe get some savings on Gas. However, there are usually 1 or 2 places in a 100 mile radius that you can get the gas from. So you waste all the time driving there, wear and tear on the vehicle, just to save a few cents on gas that usually does not offset what you lost getting there. Unless you live less than 5 miles away from the super special gas station you can cash in your rewards on, it is just stupid.
In some stores you don't even need your loyalty card either. Enough people complain that they won't purchase the items unless they get the "discount" price that cashiers will just give you a new card on the spot or swipe a card they have with them. I have seen that a lot.
Personally, I enjoy my method a heck of a lot more. The original information on the account is bogus and the demographic information they glean from it must be hilarious.
Re: (Score:2)
I get about $1000 cashback from various cards, so I'd say it makes me frugal and budget-consciouos (or a cheapass depending on your view).
Re: (Score:2)
Everything gets accused of being "the mark of the beast" now and then. I work in a local government and the public library is in the same building as us. They had someone in there once who was proclaiming that they were using "the mark of the beast" because they were issuing library cards with unique numbers on them.
Back when I was still attending church I even heard a preacher proclaim that "the government already has the computer NAMED 'The Beast'"!!!?!?!? I sometimes wonder if he was completely off hi
Thank you! (Score:2)
There's an idea for a server name. Maybe I'll name my media server attention_harlot too.
Re: (Score:2)
I heard the same on one of those conspiracy radio shows. I think they also found a "666" in there somewhere.
Re: (Score:2)
Back when computer shopper magazine was the size of a phonebook, I was waiting in line to buy it at a store. The guy behind me told me: "You shouldn't buy one of those". What crossed through my mind was that I know there are free ways to get hardware reviews and product lists. Then he said: "Computers are the beast". I was sorely tempted to joke: "I know, and that is why I am going to school to be a programmer. I want to be the one to create the beast". But in the end, I decided to say nothing because he wa
Re: (Score:2)
Given the context of the Antichrist story is the Bible the mark of the beast is probably not a number, or even a visible mark. Christ marked his followers by baptizing them..... the Antichrist would likely follow a similar ritual.
Re:That's silly... (Score:5, Informative)
The parent isn't kidding. The official user number of Anonymous Coward is 666. Log in and click here for proof:
http://yro.slashdot.org/zoo.pl?op=check&type=friend&uid=666 [slashdot.org]
Good! (Score:5, Insightful)
I really don't care what arbitrary reason they picked. I'm just glad to hear of someone - anyone - standing up and saying that they refuse to be tagged like cattle. Good for you, Indians!
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Good! (Score:5, Funny)
Wait, it's india. Wouldn't they relish the chance to be treated like cattle?
Re:Good! (Score:4, Insightful)
These are Christians in India, not Hindus. There's a difference: one believes a magical zombie died so they can live forever but that if they don't follow the zombie's teachings very closely, they'll burn in a lake of fire forever; the other one thinks the stupidest creature on four legs (and also one of the tastiest) is a magical creature that we should all aspire to become in a future life, but in the meantime we should give rats milk and bath in the most polluted river in the world so that when we die we can finally be happy...until we get reborn into a new body and have to be unhappy again.
Bah, bunch of nutters, the lot of them. Why anyone bothers with religion is a mystery to me.
Re:Good! (Score:4, Funny)
We do it for the chicks.
Re:Good! (Score:4, Interesting)
Agreed, but it is noteworthy that for once religious paranoia, and especially that LSD-induced last part of the bible, has a good effect on the world See "Jesus Camp" for plenty of examples of it being much more annoying and dangerous.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Kinda a stretch... (Score:2)
Though I have to say, every time I hear a group talk about being ready to be persecuted, it reminds me of the masochist in little shop of horrors... I am not sure it really counts if you go out o
So... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
TFA says "The fear of being identified with the 'number of the beast' stems from the Bible's Revelation chapter 13 Verse 17 which says '...and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark or the name of the beast or the number of his name.'"
So I guess there's plenty of wiggle room even if one is not willing to liberally interpret to the point of believing almost the opposite of what is actually said in that book, which there are plenty of people who do that. "Don't murder" eh? Oh, well they -m
Two things... (Score:5, Informative)
1. Revelation is almost entirely using symbolic language (it says so in the first paragraph).
2. Nearly everyone goes to hell. Hell is just the state of being dead, nothing more. Even Jesus is spoken of as being in 'hell' when he died.
The 'mark of the beast; is not a literal, physical mark. Rather, it is some kind of behavior or trait associating one with the Devils machinations (i.e. participating (or tacitly approving of) in genocide)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The day I wish I had mod points for an AC - Hell must be frozen over!
But seriously, that particular (mis)interpretation of the Bible, and Revelation in particular, can easily be traced to John Nelson Darby and Cyrus Scofield. If you want to really understand Christian fundamentalist nuttiness in the US, the Scofield Reference Bible is your source.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Interesting. Can you explain further? I looked up the first paragraph and it's this:
"Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
It doesn't say anything about using symbolic language. Also not in subsequent paragraphs.
Secondly, you are confusing Hell with Sheol, the place where all the souls of the dead go. However amusing the idea may be, the Bible m
Re:Two things... (Score:4, Interesting)
Main Entry: signified
Function: noun
: a concept or meaning as distinguished from the sign through which it is communicated
So the mark represents what a person does (the hand) and what a person thinks (the forehead).
In the original Greek and Hebrew Hell=Sheol=Hades=Gehenna=Tartarus. They all mean 'grave' not 'place where God tortures people for eternity'.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Problem: Not all versions of the bible use the work "signify":
NIV:
NAS:
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, to be fair: given that the Bible is a collection of translations of translations, etc... pretty much everything is a "version".
My point here is that if the meaning of a single ambiguous word in the whole translation chain can change the entire meaning of one of the most important sections of the Bible, then how seriously can we take the Bible in the first place?
If it's a guide to something, then to what exactly? Our pre-conceived notions perhaps? Then the Bible is nothing more than an enabler for the
The Bible Proclaims... (Score:2, Insightful)
They relish this opportunity to prove their faith because the Bible also proclaims that they will be persecuted.
It has been my experience, through years of informal religion studies, that the Bible can predict/proclaim/justify just about anything you want it. Thousands of pages of hear-say, from hundreds of authors, many only written after being passed down for generations, just adds up to way too much ambiguity and makes it way to easy to find a sentence or two that can support $my_action. Yes, this is part of what makes religion so dangerous.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, I think any book that gives people funny ideas should probably be banned...
Re: (Score:2)
Lot was a hero in the Bible, spared from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah for befriending an angle.
Was it acute angle?
Re: (Score:2)
POSIX operating systems are sinful (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
That sounds completely reasonable, especially the havoc you can expect if you chmod files to 666 in a real multi-user environment.
If you wanted to share files, you would chmod the directory to 1777 (which is good, 7 being a good number).
Re:POSIX operating systems are sinful (Score:5, Informative)
Anyhow, you have to agree that he was right, for the wrong reason. Giving read/write permissions to everybody is the number of the stupid, not the number of the beast.
666 isn't the number of the beast. (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Another time had a crazy man in Indianapolis hand me a flyer explaining that the year
Oh boy (Score:2, Insightful)
At lest that's the picture that I get in my head when I read all of these comments.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I guess this is off-topic but... (Score:2)
These people are not afraid of punishment. They relish this opportunity to prove their faith because the Bible also proclaims that they will be persecuted.
Aren't self-fulfilling prophecies awesome?
Yes, but uneducated in a way you not thinking of (Score:4, Interesting)
I caught this quote from the first post:
"Always good to see uneducated crazies are all over the world.
Yes, uneducated, but not in the way you are thinking of.
Christians are persecuted all over the world. In India, there are some fanatical groups of Hindus and Muslims that are especially violent towards Christians, with murders and burning whole villages not uncommon. Lesser persecution occurs all over the world, however, and is to be expected. In fact, this is probably not exclusive to Christians, though some religions tend to suffer less. I suspect because they fight back. Christians are not called to do so, but to love their persecutors and put their faith in God. Seeking persecution is not necessary - it will seek you as a Christian.
I'm currently studying Revelation, and have been getting very different insights into the imagery and visions depicted there. The 'mark of the Beast' need not be a literal mark, but it could be just as apparent. If, as a Christian, you spend your time watching celebrity news shows and, as Don Imus says, 'revelling in the agony of others', you are participating in the less-Christian aspects of our culture. This is more the domain of the Beast (Satan) than it is of God. You are marked by this. If you spend your time talking about things of the world, you are marked as one more interested in the world. Am I guilty of this? Yup. We can change, though.
The quote about 'buying or selling' is indeed, however, looking more literal than figurative. This is more interesting. But of course, if you wish to buy or sell that which is being offered by the prevailing culture, well, yes, avoiding the mark of the Beast will distance you from that culture. In TFA, it seems India is instituting the UID system to better identify individuals. I think, as a Christian, I could tolerate having a UID as a means to entirely acceptable ends, ie property ownership.
I think these Mizoramans are misguided, but they are also under constant threat. Who knows.
Hopefully some of the pastors I know of in India will reach out to them and give them some useful insights. You have to fight the real fight, not be distracted by the enemy.
ps- I do not advocate Christians isolating themselves from the world. We are called to be in the world, but not of it. If you don't understand this, try to evaluate your investment in current events. Are you tossed to and fro by the latest political debate, or do you take it as an event, and keep your focus on the issues and real progress?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Try wikipedia? [wikipedia.org]
India(na) (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Because, just like Floor 13 being called Floor 14, you know where the fuck you actually are when you see that big "14" when the elevator doors open.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm not talking ignorant of danger, rather immune the unreasoning response to imagined threats.