Brinksmanship Continues In Google-China Row Over Censorship 133
According to The Financial Times, "Google has drawn up detailed plans for the closure of its Chinese search engine and is now '99.9 per cent' certain to go ahead [with the closure] as talks over censorship with the Chinese authorities have reached an apparent impasse, according to a person familiar with the company’s thinking. In a hardening of positions on both sides, the Chinese government also on Friday threw down a direct public challenge to the US search company, with a warning that it was not prepared to compromise on internet censorship to stop Google leaving." "99.9 per cent" or not, both sides say they'd actually like Google to remain in China, but neither is willing to bend publicly on the question of censorship. If Google closes google.cn, as now seems likely, it could still maintain its R&D office in Beijing and its sales force, who sell ads on google.com targeted into China.
Well, that's good to hear (Score:3, Interesting)
It's nice that they're taking a stand, even if the gap will be filled by Baidu fairly quickly.
Re:Well, that's good to hear (Score:4, Insightful)
Microsoft will move aggressively to fill the void, promising to proactively censor results AND to report people entering 'improper' terms into Bing.
They will do anything to get another fraction of a percentage point for market share.
Re:Well, that's good to hear (Score:5, Interesting)
I totally agree. Google is taking a stand for freedom on the internet here and it will hurt their business. Microsoft doesn't give a shit about freedom and will increase their business.
People need to really look at what companies do and judge who they should do business with or not. If Microsoft will be willing to sell the internet freedoms of Chinese citizens down the river for a buck, whats to say that someday they won't sell the internet freedoms of American citizens too?
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Re:Well, that's good to hear (Score:5, Insightful)
No, Google has a more honest privacy policy. Didn't you read that story about how much information Microsoft has and their policies for turning it over? It was on Wikileaks a while back, I think. That's the problem with people like you. Can't handle honesty, so you punish the guys who are honest and go with the shady guys because they know how to manipulate you into thinking they're trustworthy (even though they're doing everything the other guys are doing and more, just out of the public eye).
Oh, and it's Chinese law to censor search results. There are *NO* search engines operating in China that don't censor. Bing operates in China, so they censor. They just keep quiet about it, though, and that causes the uninformed to conclude that they're more trustworthy.
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Google had no choice but to censor.
Either leave silent censorship by baidu, or go in and admit censorship when performed.
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In China it is called Biying, which is more like "surely" + "answer"
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...And Biying sounds like the English word "buying" which is like "gimme"+"money".
It's a huge international capitalist conspiracy! Google it!
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Re:Well, that's good to hear (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Well, that's good to hear (Score:5, Insightful)
Anything that rusts the machinery of their fucked government is better. Scientists losing access to important/useful data? This is good news, as it will slow them down. Hopefully, it will be one of many things that will affect change in the country. The first domino, or perhaps, just the middle domino?
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I believe it is the first step in bringing an entire nation forward. Unfortunately, they chose actual oppression over a benevolent dictatorship.
I want them to catch up with the rest of us, because as their people become more educated, they will want to know about this thing we call "Freedom" (speaking as a Canadian, not that the US isn't "
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I want them to catch up with the rest of us, because as their people become more educated, they will want to know about this thing we call "Freedom" (speaking as a Canadian, not that the US isn't "Free"). Then people start to get angry, blah blah blah.
Not necessarily. [newsweek.com]
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This isn't a problem. They are closing down the localized version of Google.cn only. Unless the Powers That Be decide to completely block access to Google.com (individual content wouldn't be blocked unless it was "objectionable", and most content on Google Scholar is decidedly apolitical), Chinese scholars can just use the English version. Many of them have decent English, or have access to grad students with decent English. So again, no big loss unless they somehow lose access to the English Google sch
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Baidu is still more popular overall, but much of this is due to the large number of people overall who use the Internet. F
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I agree. This is about important principles. It is nice to see them recognize this.
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I really don't see that China has anything much to lose over this. Google had some pretty staunch competition anyway from Baidu, which seems to be like a combination of google, youtube and wikipedia, set for the Chinese market.
China is well within it's rights as a sovereign nation to govern it's people in the way it sees fit. We may not agree with all of it's measures, but we don't have to! Google, as a foreign company, should keep it's nose out of Chinese politics.
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You know one of the founders of Google is named "Sergey" and I bet that has a lot to do with why they are taking this stance. I commend them.
Wow... (Score:2)
Is Google actually delivering on their "Don't be evil" thing?
Re:Wow... (Score:5, Interesting)
Is Google actually delivering on their "Don't be evil" thing?
It's Sergei, mostly.
Can't find the reference right now, but there's a story out there in which it's posited that his childhood experience in the Soviet Union left him with an aversion to coercive state power. He allowed himself to be talked into going into China by Schmidt and Page, but when it became clear that China was using them to target human rights activists, Sergei baulked.
Having agreed at the outset to put limits on what they would put up with from China, Larry and Eric had no choice but to go along when Sergei insisted that they retaliate.
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I thought I had remembered that too. One of those fun-filled-but-fail-at-a-party facts I have stuffed away. The boys still own Google, or enough of it to decide it's course over any objections by share holders et al.
I feel certain that if Google pulls out of China, they're fucked, so to speak. How then can MS or Yahoo be seen as non-corrupt if they stay? While it's political in nature it has a certain PR value to it as well. Baidu, while fairly well used is basically by Chinese, for Chinese, about Chinese.
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How long though until some major pension fund or investment house files a lawsuit citing that by pulling out of the largest potential market in the 21st century is a fiduciary breach of responsibility to make money for the shareholder?
Do It (Score:4, Interesting)
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"don't be evil" now means don't lose the shareholders money, what did you think it mean?
What changed? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:What changed? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm a bit of a cynic, but it seems to me that Google wanted to leave China after they were hacked, and made an unreasonable (in context) offer to China in order to make the Chinese look like the "bad guys" and Google look like the "good guys."
Re:What changed? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a bit of a cynic, but it seems to me that Google wanted to leave China after they were hacked, and made an unreasonable (in context) offer to China in order to make the Chinese look like the "bad guys" and Google look like the "good guys."
Getting hacked by state-sponsored hackers seems like enough of a reason all on its own, no need to make up another one.
Seems more like an attempt to use the hacking as leverage to reduce censorship requirements as in "you hacked us, we're leaving unless you cut restrictions on our business."
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What prevents Google from being hacked after pulling out of China? The internet is, you know, global and all... Why would Chinese hackers be limited to operating in China?
Nothing. But at least Google is no longer helping the people who are hurting them. Plus, if they do retaliate, none of Google's people are subject to arrest.
Re:What changed? (Score:4, Interesting)
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703447104575118092158730502.html [wsj.com]
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I don't think it is fair to say Eric Schmidt is in favor of censoring. The problem is that he doesn't appear to see anything seriously wrong with it, certainly not from a moral point of view. He is, after all, the CEO of one of the most privacy puncturing businesses the world has ever seen. Where I think the issue arose is that if you are in the business of puncturing privacy, then censoring means walling off something you'd like to get your hands on, i.e., people's data as a window into what kind of advert
Not that much at the end? (Score:2)
If Google closes google.cn, as now seems likely, it could still maintain its R&D office in Beijing and its sales force, who sell ads on google.com targeted into China.
I don't know how one would call this strategy a "pull out". That's more "into the market" than before google.cn was established in a time when Chinese users just used google.com directly and that Google could not sell ads directly in China. Only the job of censoring is just shift from google back to the Great Firewall. Neither side seems to lose anything and both sides can now claim victory. "Don't do evils, just collect money and let others do the evils"
Maybe google now becomes more popular in China than
Re:What changed? here is another theory (Score:1)
.
Big uproar of a hack on Google makes Google stop Chinese eavesdropping on Google-US.
Google does not block their backdoor on their services in China for US -
consequence: either comply for a level field or leave the field.
I think it is not about a few dissidents, that is what the US services want the world to think!
So? (Score:1, Insightful)
Why should China care if Google goes or stays? All China has to do is checkout the source code from the internal Google repository, and build their own.
Google is the only one that stands to lose... (Score:3, Interesting)
Google could stay there and stay on top because they have the best product (for now). If they leave the market, something will fill the vacuum and profit greatly from the billion.s of people in China.
I don't think China has much to lose here, I'm curious as to whether or not someone has a good convincing argument to the contrary?
Re:Google is the only one that stands to lose... (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think its Google's intention to hurt China. To me it just seems they don't want to do business in a country that pushes them around.
Re:Google is the only one that stands to lose... (Score:4, Insightful)
Right, 'cause it's much nicer to do business in countries where corporate can push government around (like in the US of A).
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China loses because Google is the best search engine, especially for scholarly papers, books and such. Sure they have Baidu, but it is basically the AOL of China; very popular with those who don't know better. University students, engineers, and smart people in general prefer Google, especially when searching in English. I suspect Google leaving China will lead to more people bypassing the filters to get to Google.
Also, Google has been a symbolically important, and may influence other western companies.
Bad summary, Google isn't pulling out of China (Score:1, Informative)
From the article:
"It’s very important to know we are not pulling out of China"
At most, it appears they would stop offering search services.
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Checked. Works fine! (thumbs up!)
I'm saying that the summary misses the important point that Google isn't at all interested in not doing business in or with China which many people would like to hear. It's clearly misleading fellow commenters here if you scroll up or down which is why I posted my original comment early on.
I RTFA! So sue me! Shesh.
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Google the political player (Score:1, Interesting)
It's funny, I don't recall Microsoft ever having this kind of pull, to be able to influence the market on a political level. But everyone uses Windows so I guess they're in for the profit all the way. Google apparently is a little different.
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I am not sure what pull you are talking about. Google threatened to leave China if they didn't stop censoring, China told them they are free to go.
Thats not a lot of pull in my book.
Google played badly (Score:1, Insightful)
They should not have publicized charges against the Chinese government when they had no actual proof of their involvement. By doing so, it makes Google look like they're taking advantage of a situation in order to attempt extralegal government reform. If that play failed, they had the choice of either kowtowing in apology or going home. Neither really does much for their profile. They had no contingency and now they've lost both the opportunity to be a force of reform in China and their stake in that billio
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I reckon they do have the proof but it cannot be discussed in the public arena, nor probably the private one. To reveal the evidence would expose something you have but don't want to be publicly known. The chinese know this and being the Eastern business entrepreneurs they are, know how to use it best against a Western mind.
The Chinese government and big steel companies (one and the same really) have been doing this with resource exporting nations for years.
"The market price for resource_x is $10/unit? T
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time to set up a cartel...
Why does everyone support Google in this? (Score:3, Insightful)
- there is less search engine choice in China
- (presumably) some people from Google China will lose their jobs
It would be completely different if Google was so important that they could force the Chinese government to do what they want. But they are not even the biggest search engine in China. Why is everyone acting like Google is doing the right thing, when it seems like what they are doing will be bad for everyone involved (the employees, users, and shareholders)?
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Standing up for your principals isn't about doing what's convenient or causing the least damage. China has been very concerned in the last decade about being part of the global community. Imagine if every company took the same path as google and essentially shut china off from the internet outside their country. They would get the message.
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In my country, it is completely illegal to search for the word "Capena" or the phrase "government corruption".
Are you ok with that?
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Silence is consent (Score:2, Insightful)
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It is perfectly possible for the morally correct choice to be against everyone's short term interests. We approve of Google's actions because Google is sticking to their principles and not supporting an evil regime for profit like most other megacorps are inclined to do. In the long term, if more companies follow Google's lead, it will teach the Chinese government that the civilized world will not support their policies and they will change their ways, even if out of self-interest.
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I've got no love for Google, they are merely the next hegemony as far as I am concerned. I think it's excessive to say that "Google lost in China". They entered the market late against entrenched local competition. They will always be seen as the face of USA Inc. rather than an independent or local company: they can't play the friendly local card, they will always be the big bad foreigners.
Google wants to be the international search engine, but there is a lot more effort to filter out "inappropriate content
Take it to the people (Score:2, Interesting)
My humnle theory (Score:5, Interesting)
What this is all about.
Recently quit a lot of independent security researchers and companies showed evidence that if you do any kind of business in China, you are BOUND to be hacked by "someone" from China. They also said that there is no defence against it (the China attacks will eventually always succeed).
Google was one of the victims of such attacks. They considered the facts. What do we get by doing business in China?
1) Small market share (the Chinese search engine Baidu dominates the search engine market in China)
2) Trojans on our internal networks.
Let's give up (because of 1 and 2). But let's do it in a way that wins us PR points. Let's do it in a way that makes us look good. Like, true fighters for freedom.
Let's tell them we're not going to obey their laws and regulations. We (Google) KNOW that they will not allow us to get away with that. But we don't care, because we've decided to leave anyway.
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"Small market share"? There are ~300 million internet users in China. Google has about a third of the search market. 100 million users is not small by any measure.
In five years' time, a third of the China search market will be bigger than the whole US market.
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OK. Say that they leave. Will the attacks stop? You still have valuable assets, perhaps at new locations..
You eliminate an entire class of attacks, i.e. those which originate from the Chinese government on a network they control. Further, you can simply block all traffic from China and eliminate a whole other raft of it. This leaves proxies &c of course, so it prevents nothing, but it certainly reduces a lot of attack surface. If they're not really making any money there anywhy, why bother?
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China's per-capita GDP is tiny
Glad someone finally grew a pair (Score:2)
and this is called a "pull out"? (Score:2)
If Google closes google.cn, as now seems likely, it could still maintain its R&D office in Beijing and its sales force, who sell ads on google.com targeted into China.
I don't know how one would call this strategy a "pull out". That's more "into the market" than before google.cn was established in a time when Chinese users just used google.com directly and that Google could not sell ads directly in China. Only the job of censoring is just shift from google to the Great Firewall. Neither side seems to lose anything and both sides can now claim victory. "Don't do evils, just collect money and let others do the evils" Very creative marketing move!
Google may lose market share in china (Score:2)
by leaving, but they will earn immense PR and public support all around the world that will have far reaching consequences. economically, technically, and due to recent trends, politically.
Chinese want them gone anyhow (Score:3, Insightful)
Biased sample (Score:2)
Now Australia Please (Score:2)
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I hope Google takes this stand elsewhere and gives some other countries who are warming to the idea of total control over information flow in their countries something to think about. (Yes, I know it won't happen).
Google is an incredibly valuable resource to pretty much every Internet-capable country on this planet. Consequently, the threat of pulling out of a country is a very real one. It's real to China, you can bank on that. The don't currently have a viable alternative to a number of Google's services. Oh, they can certainly duplicate them at some point in the future, but the loss of Google will hurt now. Other countries which do not now, and will probably never have, an alternative to Google are far more likely
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They already told Conroy to just fuck off when he proposed they filter YouTube for him.
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"Nazi, not nazi, surely", surely?
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Re:It's not Google's job (Score:4, Interesting)
It's not Google's job to tell the Chinese government how to do things, no matter how wrong they think those ideas are, or how Google justifies those beliefs.
What? That makes no sense whatsoever. Google is a U.S. corporation, and could not under any circumstances "tell" the PRC to do anything. The PRC can, on the other hand, tell Google how it must behave when operating within Chinese territory.
... quite the opposite in fact. What Google is objecting to is China's government telling Google how to run Google's business. China is insisting on concessions that Google's founders (in particular, Sergey Brin) are unwilling to accept. End of story. That is their choice and, oddly enough, it's being a U.S. corporation rather than a Chinese corporation that allows them to make that decision. If the converse were true, if it were Baidu being told to bend over and take it, well, let's just say they would do exactly what their government handlers told them to do.
Consequently, Google isn't telling anyone how to run their government
The point being, the average US guy has screwed up beliefs concerning China's motivations behind Internet control.
I see ... and the average Chinese guy has a clear understanding of U.S. motivations behind our current hands-off attitude towards Internet control.
Don't make this into more than it is.
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to tell the Chinese government how to do things, no matter how wrong they think those ideas are, or how Google justifies those beliefs.
So many people from the US seem to forget to see things from China's POV. As far as they are concerned, this is a method of keeping society's beliefs safe and consistent. Doing things to internet access is only a means to that goal. And don't forget that not everyone in the world has a Manifest Destiny/Rugged Individualism/Self-Interest Maximizing mindset. East Asian cultures value the stability of society the most, and many people from Confucian-based cultures would not disagree with the statement "Society > Individual".
The point being, the average US guy has screwed up beliefs concerning China's motivations behind Internet control. In principle, China is not against freedom. But China is for social stability. Telling China to stop filtering the Internet is tantamount to disagreeing with the aim of social stability, compared to US people's belief that internet filtering can only be an attack on people's freedom/individuality.
to tell Google how to do things, no matter how wrong they think those ideas are, or how China justifies those beliefs.
So many people from China seem to forget to see things from Google's POV. As far as they are concerned, this is a method of keeping society's beliefs safe and consistent. Not doing things to internet access is only a means to that goal. And don't forget that not everyone in the world has a Collectivistic Maximizing mindset. American cultures value the freedom of individuals the most, and
Re:It's not Google's job. (Score:1)
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"hinders technological/scientific progress (hey let's have a bunch of philosophers and novelists take care of the economy )"
You realise of course that the current Chinese government is top-heavy with engineers and scientists? It's the technologists' dream: finally, technologists actually in charge! Thank fuck they aren't Objectivists.
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Curses. Reboot logged me out. I am the OP.
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But... if you're blocking level 0 content, this doesn't help. Repost away...
I really think people, and certain governments in particular, are completely missing the boat on this issue.
A good, effective search engine helps authorities find "illicit" content just as effectively as it helps the regular people looking for it.
Even if you are an oppressive government looking to quell dissension, or a "responsible" government looking to crack down on crime and kiddie porn... having access to good search results wo