PA School Spied On Students Via School-Issued Laptop Webcams 941
jargon82 writes "A Pennsylvania high school is using laptops they issued to students to spy on them in homes and outside of school. According to a class action filling the webcams and microphones in these laptops could be remotely activated by school officials, and have been used in this role. One student was accused of 'improper behavior in his home' and the school provided a photo taken via his laptop as proof."
Tape (Score:5, Insightful)
Turn it around (Score:5, Insightful)
And accuse school officials of pedophilia. This will be fun...
This world needs a "reset" button (Score:1, Insightful)
Fuck you (Score:0, Insightful)
One student was accused of 'improper behavior in his home'
Fuck you I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you I won't do what you tell me
Fuck you I won't do what you tell me
FUCK YOU I WON'T DO WHAT YOU TELL ME!
Motherfucker!
Ughhh!
Stupidity (Score:5, Insightful)
WTF is "improper behavior in the home", and why does the school seem to think that it's their business?
Why boingboing? (Score:2, Insightful)
The Associated Press is covering this [yahoo.com] (link is to Yahoo; just about any paper will have the same content). Boingboing (who I see no reason to visit) is probably quoting or otherwise parroting the AP. It makes me wonder if jargon82 works for or is part owner of boingboing?
Google News lists 25 separate, highly respected news sites such as the London Telegraph, Philadelphia Enqiuirer, USA Toady, Toronto Star, Ars Technica, The Consumerist... Yet slashdot links boingboing?
WTF?
Why am I not surprised. (Score:5, Insightful)
School officials tend to think themselves as above the law / the law way too many times in my personal experience, not surprised that some decided they would also be the police in these kids homes.
I hope they lose this suit. Hard.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
No shit. Not that I advocate underage people doing anything, but all it takes is one girl changing clothes in her room with the laptop turned on, and then they have a stack of federal charges.
I'm pretty sure there are some federal charges that can be associated with that anyways.
Kiddie porn (Score:5, Insightful)
If I were one of those students and under-aged (18), I'd claim that they were guilty of producing child pornography because I had been naked in front of my laptop.
Hell, I'd go as far as to tell them that I have masturbated in front of it.
Fuck them and whomever came up with that idea, that includes IT personnel, school administrators, PTA and whoever else have have even a superficial finger in this and haven't said 'no'.
Re:Tape (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:This world needs a "reset" button (Score:1, Insightful)
Anarchy is the REAL democracy and freedom.
If the world returned to anarchy, you would be enslaved or eaten by the man with bigger arms. Your friends' popular votes against that man's actions would be worthless. How is that democratic?
What does inappropriate behavior mean? (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't take candy from the government (Score:4, Insightful)
This is why you don't want "free" computers from the government, you want the government to NOT take that money away from you to begin with so you can buy your own computer...
It's shocking, given the general lack of tech competence by school bureaucrat types that they did this and thought they could get away with it. And why aren't there criminal charges? This isn't any different than them putting cameras (potentially) in the bathrooms of minors for the purposes of procuring child pornography.
This goes far beyond stupid school administrators, this is a blatant case of GOVERNMENT actors out of control, willfully violating the Constitution (and scores of other laws) and they need to be punished. Not just fired, everyone responsible for this need to spend some quality time in a "pound me in the ass" prison.
What kind of crack were they on? (Score:5, Insightful)
Second, why the hell do they need to spy on students anyway? It's good that they're giving the students laptops, but what they do at home (regardless of all the stupid shit they do) is none of the school's business, nor is it in their jurisdiction. I could make a rant about how parents need to step it up and take better care of their kids, but I'll just sum it up: schools should stay out of parental territories. It's bad for the student, and it's bad for the school.
Whoever was running this, either the school IT admins or even the higher school administration should be at least suspended pending further review.
Re:at the very least (Score:3, Insightful)
First of all, you cannot prove that. Secondly, they knew the software was there, making them guilty of TRYING to produce child pornography.
Seriously. If they "happen" to have pictures of some kid "behaving improperly", they will definitely have pictures/movies of everything else that kid has been doing.
The bigger question... (Score:5, Insightful)
What exactly is "improper behavior in the home", and who would believe it was appropriate for a school to accuse the kid of it?
No surprise here (Score:5, Insightful)
I hope that not only do the tools responsible for this have their asses handed to them in civil court, I sincerely hope that those asses are then tossed into prison for what has to be a long list of criminal statutes that have been violated.
Re:Tape (Score:5, Insightful)
The ever growing list of reasons (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Tape (Score:5, Insightful)
He simply wasn't paying attention when Kowalski explained it to Toad. It's THREE magic tools -- duct tape, WD-40, and a pair of vicegrips. The vicegrips will fix the microphone problem, and actually should be used on the school's principal.
I hope the parents of the affected kids get a million bucks apiece from the district, and somebody in the school's administration goes to prison. A peeping Tom would get prison, how is this not the same thing only worse? School administrators should be made to realize that they're not gods, and the kids and their parents have rights.
If any of the parents are like some people I know, those administrators should be fearing for their personal safety.
I forsee criminal charges. (Score:1, Insightful)
If law enforcement in that area, along with the DA, are willing to do their jobs, then I foresee serious criminal charges for the person or people involved with this mess. As agents of the government, which any government employee is, such a person or people must have a warrant in order to engage in such activities. Since this spying was going on in the student's home and not at school, the school official(s) cannot claim they were within their right to spy.
Looking a computer logs, while a stretch itself, might be legal in some circumstances, actively spying on a person's activities in their home is highly illegal. This should get very interesting, if the people involved with bringing the lawsuit are willing to go the distance with the case.
Re:Hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
To me, the whole idea that a school could possibly accuse a student of "inappropriate behavior in the home" is worse than the web cams. Seriously, WTF? This is taking the whole "school as babysitter" thing a bit to far.
Should (Score:5, Insightful)
Someone should go to jail for this.
Child porn charges should be raised, of course. Further, the cameras/mics could be used to spy on anyone in the house, including adults who are not in any way, shape, or form under the guardianship of the school. So any argument about guardianship is moot.
Sadly, no one will go to jail for this. Some administrator will be told not to do it again, and the school board will be fined, and that will be the end of it. At least, that is all that happened when a school nurse (not a cop) forced a child to strip and wiggle (without probable cause, for that matter).
I don't understand how a society that is so obsessed with protecting the children that it tries children as adults for crimes that wouldn't have been crimes if the children were adults can turn around and let adults off scott-free when they directly break the law to the detriment of children.
Irrationality really frustrates me. And scares me, too.
Milton said it best: (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm going to have to burn down the building.
WTF?! (Score:4, Insightful)
I absolutely DARE some school official to try this with my kids. I don't play the stupid game where they think they have even an ounce of authority over what my child does after stepping off the bus. In fact, if they punished my son for anything he did at home, I'll buy him ice cream for every day he's suspended and encourage him to make noise about it and resist in a smug, non-violent way as well as writing every official, politician and journalist I can find in a 100 mile radius. And then, I'll just be getting started. I'm not afraid of DSS either. I even *gasp* spank my kids.
The problem is sticking up for yourself and actually exercising your rights gets you branded as a radical, a criminal or a terrorist. This needs to end. I'm willing to live a harder life to live it with my liberty, pride and self-respect intact and I have. I've lost jobs, promotions, etc solely on sticking to values and principals and refusing to do the wrong thing. It's cost me.....dearly in some cases but at least I can honestly say that I'm free. There used to be a lot of people like this.
The school's job is to pour a bit of knowledge in his head. Teaching morality and values is the parent's job. They need to stay the hell off of my turf and stop overstepping their bounds. Period. What my son's personality is like, his habits, etc is none of their business outside that building.
Re:Don't take candy from the government (Score:5, Insightful)
This is why you don't want "free" computers from the government...
Um, I don't think you'd want "free" computers from a for-profit company either.
Nothing is for free.
Re:Why am I not surprised. (Score:3, Insightful)
School officials tend to think themselves as above the law / the law way too many times in my personal experience, not surprised that some decided they would also be the police in these kids homes.
They are pretty much being trained to think of themselves as such, as it suits the government educational establishment and the goals of the statists who maintain a near government monopoly on education.
IE: control the kids, control the eventual adult. Teach them that this is "normal" and that they aren't to step out of line or the state will be on them.
I hope they lose this suit. Hard.
So do I, but you will see the school district start pleading poverty, and they will get sympathetic treatment by the courts. The courts, being another government entity aren't exactly impartial.
This case should go beyond suing. These people should be locked up. They should ALREADY be locked up pending trial. People who would do such a thing, to monitor children in this way without any reason, without any consent, without any standing in law to do so are a threat to society and shouldn't be walking the streets, much less running a school!
Re:What does inappropriate behavior mean? (Score:3, Insightful)
The only thing I could think of would be inappropriate use of the school-issued laptop, and that's the one thing the laptop's web cam couldn't see! What's sacry is there there are people (across the political spectrum) who would support the idea that the government would spy on your kids to make sure they never do anything naughty.
Re:Turn it around (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This world needs a "reset" button (Score:4, Insightful)
You are sadly dissillusioned (or just young and ignorant, or incredibly stupid). Anarchy always leads to monarchy; with anarchy, the strong (meaning rich and powerful) can do anything they want to the weak. Anarchy means I can shoot you in the back without provocation and without fear of reprisal. I can get an armed mob and enslave you. I can rape your mother, sister, girlfriend, and two year old daughter before torturing them to death. No law.
"Anarchy is the REAL democracy and freedom" is the dumbest statement I've heard all week. What grade are you in, kid?
Re:Hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Doesn't matter if the child is male or female ... naked + underage = trouble for whoever made/possesses the image. Of course, there are problems with the puritanical, nanny-state mindset of the zealots who use those laws to jail teens who take pictures of their own bodies, but its use seems strikingly apropos here, given the voyeuristic nature of the complaint.
What I want to know is
a) Who thought it would be a good idea to allow remote control of the camera and mic? Sounds like it would require school administrator and systems administrator knowledge and cooperation.
b) Who thought it would be a good idea to actually use and review the video streams? Having the theoretical ability is one thing, but to actually make use of it is worse.
c) With regard to the student who was spoken to about their "innappropriate behavior", what directed the school's attention to the laptop in question? With all the laptops potentially involved, the sheer numbers make it impossible for a school's admin staff to monitor them all.
d) When was the student's "inappropriate behavior" monitored? Was it after school hours, at home? Was it during school hours? What was the conduct in question?
e) IF YOU ARE A SCHOOL OFFICIAL PEEKING AT KIDS' PRIVATE MOMENTS, HOW MUCH OF A FREAKIN' BONEHEAD DO YOU HAVE TO BE TO CONFRONT THEM WITH EVIDENCE OBTAINED BY SUCH QUESTIONABLE MEANS?
I hereby sentence the offending individuals to take whatever Civics/US Government 101 class is mandatory for all students in their school. Anyone with less than an A final grade will be shot. Anyone who gets an A will be forced to write the complete Bill of Rights 10,000 times, before being forever exiled to the set of Big Brother.
Re:Bigbrother tag (Score:3, Insightful)
The only reason the school got away with it for as long as they did was because it was a secret and the students didn't know they were being watched. If the students had known they were being watched they would have taken the school to court, taped over the cameras, or just closed the laptops. Contrasted to the telescreen which everyone knew about, couldn't be turned off, and couldn't be legally fought. This was, undoubtably, a fuck up by the school, but Big Brother would be if this was an official policy of the federal government and there existed no way to fight it, since even the act of fighting it would be enough to have you tortured and/or killed.
Re:Tape (Score:5, Insightful)
A problem with that lawsuit is that the district would be using funds from the taxpayer... Which hardly punishes the right people. This was clearly a problem with the individuals who made and approved the asinine idea of spying on the kids at home. They're the ones who should be sued, and fired.
Re:Hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
As much as I'd like to see several people go to prison over this, I feel bad for the local taxpayers and their kids who will have to go to a school $50 million in the red..
Re:Hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Tape (Score:4, Insightful)
Peeping Toms go to prison. People who peep in on kids get "special" treatment in prison.
Re:Hmm (Score:3, Insightful)
The good that can come of this is not within the guity school district, but within all other school districts that might be thinking that something like this is a good idea. If this suit leaves a financial smoking crater, other school boards are sure to notice.
Re:This is too protect the children (Score:4, Insightful)
>if any inappropriate sexual behavior is observed, included but not limited to self-abuse
Masturbation is not self-abuse.
>and teachers, who act as guardians
While the children are at school, not when said children are at home.
The 1950's called, they want you back.
Re:Why am I not surprised. (Score:3, Insightful)
Please shoot yourself if you think that private education doesn't do the same thing, even home schooling is mostly based on indoctrination.
I graduated from a private school. I left public school because they were both indoctrinating, and discriminating against students based on their socio-economic background.
And your home schooling example is inappropriate. Parents have the RIGHT to teach their children what they wish. They are the ones responsible for the child, after all. A parent would even have the right to install this kind of monitoring on their kid's computer. (not something I would ever do, but they do have the right to). The government does not have the right to do either.
Re:Hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
You mean the taxpayers in that school district are fuuuuucked.
But I sure hope anyone who had a hand in it is canned.
That said... the laptops were provided by the school. Just like my employer, I'm sure the school made it clear that use of the laptops would be monitored, non-official use is verboten, etc. Turning the webcams on definitely crossed the line in terms of monitoring, IMO. What if some kid was doing their homework in their underwear, or naked? That's using the laptop for sanctioned purposes.
Re:Bad method of correction (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually I would say that somebody should be up on criminal charges. How do they know that my wife or daughter are not changing in that room when they decide to spy. How do I know that they are not recording nude pictures of my children?
Your right that a class action law case will only help the lawyers. I want to see people go to jail for this.
Teaching them early (Score:5, Insightful)
What really discourages me about all of this, is teaching the students to expect and accept this kind of treatment. I realize they are minors and often (necessarily) children's rights are limited or curbed to facilitate time to learn and understand consequences for exercising those rights.
As I watched my younger brother go through high school I was shocked to hear how the students were given no right to privacy in their lockers or personal vehicles, were under constant surveillance and could be patted down or searched at any time the school felt it wanted to (without parental consent or notification, and without any sort of probable cause requirements). The kids just accepted this and thought it was the way things worked... everywhere. No one told them that this was only possible because of the school setting; no one told them that when they became adults in the real world this sort of treatment from authorities was illegal and a violation of their rights. I don't like what we are teaching our kids, in the name of 'protecting' the kids. I'm afraid the level of scrutiny and personal rights violations that we are subjecting them to is desensitizing them to how wrong it is.
We wonder why citizens seem to just accept the erosion of their personal liberties, but what should we expect when we've been teaching them to just accept it since they were kids.
Re:convict them - then home monitor THEM! (Score:3, Insightful)
Cover the walls with mirrors.
Re:Hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
They clearly DID record it. They used a picture of the child in the case engaging in "improper behavior in the home" then confirmed to the child's father that this is true. I'm horrified by this and want to know why the heck there aren't also criminal charges filed against every staff member who knew of this without alerting the public.
What an incredibly terrifying thing this must be to each family in that district who has had such a laptop in their home. Aside from basic states of undress they may have caught kids in there's the likelihood of actually having captured sex acts, whether adults or children. This is just insane! It's not just stored, either. Clearly someone actually reviews these recordings!
This is all aside from what exactly a school is thinking for disciplining children for something that happens int he home. As a father myself I'd be furious if such a thing happened to my child. Sure, some things can impact schools but this takes it to an entirely new level.
Un-fucking-believable.
Re:What does inappropriate behavior mean? (Score:5, Insightful)
There are scores of things that would fall under this category. Killing kittens, having sex with his mother, watching WWE come to mind.
These things, when done in the home, are not the purview of the school. They may be legal issues, but if so, should be handled by the proper legal authorities, not some school administrator with an Orwellian streak. The school has no jurisdiction over the home or anywhere else that isn't the school.
Now, if the kids are killing kittens or having sex with their mothers at the school, then that is the only time the school administration should be involved.
Re:Hmm (Score:4, Insightful)
And the school will produce their Acceptable Computer Use Policy where all of the above is authorized by the parent or other legal guardian of each student, and transferring the responsibility of any illegal acts upon the student or upon their parent or other legal guardian (including prevention of anyone being in the presence of the laptop in any state of partial or complete undress or engaging in any form of sexual or excretory activity, real or pantomimed, in the presence of the laptop).
Re:Why am I not surprised. (Score:4, Insightful)
If you had simply called in sick, you'd be fine.
You're being punished for honesty.
Re:Hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's assume for a minute that the complaint is correct and that the school was remotely monitoring some set of students. (This might not be correct. Did the snapshot come from some public source like FaceBook?).
If it were my daughter's computer, I would not be talking about a class-action suit with a civil attorney. I would be sitting down at police HQ and the district attorney's office pursuing criminal charges against the individuals involved. They would need to face the felony charges that their behavior warranted. Once that was rolling, I would go after the individuals (not the district) for civil damages.
Why give a pass to the deep pockets? Simply because I don't want to have to look my neighbors in the face when a fractional point increase in their property taxes is required to pay a civil settlement that made me wealthy. I have no problems bankrupting the people who authorized and deployed the tech.
Re:What does inappropriate behavior mean? (Score:3, Insightful)
That would be ILLEGAL behaviour, not inappropriate.
The school has no say in what is inappropriate behaviour in a student's home.
And even if they had caught a student raping and killing a 9-year-old kid via the web-cam, that wouldn't make the monitoring any more acceptable.
Re:WTF?! (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem is today that so many parents are more than happy to turn over teaching morality to someone else - anyone else that might be handy. This includes school, church, fellow students, random adults at the mall, anybody. Anyone that is willing to spend the time.
Of course, what this results in is a totally borked situation where you have people thinking that as long as they get away with it, anything is OK. And a good portion of the folks that in yesteryear might have helped the parents out either no longer exist or just aren't interested in anymore because of overload and mission creep.
So if you actually want to try to instill some sort of morality in your children, great. Except unless you accept the idea that you are in the minority you are going to be trying to get everyone out of "parent's territory". A lot of parents, and I'd say most of them today, aren't as interested as you are. So trying to get things changed so it is always only the parent's role is just going to leave us in a much worse situation than we are in now in 20 years.
It isn't great that schools try to get into this when they are generally incapable of doing a good job. However, in today's world what else is there? TV? Movie stars? Are there any role models that would be good for children to look up to? Is there anyone that has enough interaction with children today to actually be able to provide a role model and some kind of morality? The answer for the most part is that if the parents, grandparents and siblings aren't going to do any "parenting" then the only other actor in the child's life is school. Sucks, doesn't it?
This doesn't really excuse what is described here, but what we are faced with is some kind of "community parenting" and nobody knows who is doing what or what they should be doing exactly. So you see a lot of experiments. Some of these experiments involve people convincing teenagers to run away from home, become prostitutes and give their new guardian the money. Some get the children into strange cults in the name of "giving the children religion" which the adults seem to think is necessary and important. I'm sure there are other experiments which turn out to be good, worthwhile and constructive. Sadly, you don't see very many of those.
We're going to have to learn how to manage this because for the most part, the parents aren't going to do it. This is especially true when the parent is a 15 year old girl that saw the father once or twice and managed to get pregnant.
Re:Tape (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The ever growing list of reasons (Score:2, Insightful)
These education people are pretty fucked up
To say the worlds educational system is run by fuckups is a leap from the article's evidence that a few school admins at one school are fucked up.
Given the parents I know, I would trust many kids more to the public/private schools than their parental tutelage.
Re:Tape (Score:4, Insightful)
Why should they? How were the kids to know they were being spied upon?
Re:Tape (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed. Don't bankrupt the tax payers because PA residents pay school taxes by district. Instead, flog them publicly and lock them up for something appropriate, like say 1 year for each laptop given out. I mean come on. What people could come to the conclusion that what they have done was a Good Idea(tm) ? Total douchebaggery.
Actually, you are wrong. The taxpayers of that district SHOULD be punished. Why? How else are we going to get responsible government? Those taxpayers have been paying the school levies and they elected the school board. By facing consequences of electing Orwellian statist morons who would do such a thing would better ensure that they not continue to do so in the future!
Re:Tape (Score:5, Insightful)
But... but... I thought people would love it that way?
Child porn on the net? Block the site. Let the rapist continue doing what he does.
Headache because of eating fast food? Take a pain killer. And continue eating fast food.
A tornado wrecks the house? Build a new one. And wait for the next hurricane.
The boyfriend turns out to be an asshole? Whine about it to your friends. And go fuck the next guy who is an asshole, but sooo cute.
A political party lied to and fucks up the nation? Vote for “the other” party. And vote for this one again next time, when the other one turns out to be just as bad.
Rinse and repeat.
Isn’t that how most “people” “solve” their problems? :/
“Cattle” might be a better term. Then again, at least a donkey never does an error more than twice.
Re:If you read the filing... (Score:3, Insightful)
if you have ever worked for the government, a lot of the people that work there think they know what is better for all the peons and how they need to make up all kinds of crazy rules for everyone to live by
Re:Hmm (Score:2, Insightful)
Welp, the parents can take the money and pay for a (typically superior IMO) private school anyway.
I would place my bet on it will happen. (Score:3, Insightful)
These school officials are entering a world of hurt.
Re:Tape (Score:3, Insightful)
We're diverging pretty far off-topic, but if you treat people like animals and tell them they have no place in society, don't be surprised when they develop this anti-institution mentality.
We then release them back into society with no real effort at rehabilitation. We need more low-security prisons with a focus on rehab, education and therapy. I know people don't want to spend money taking care of prisoners, but ultimately we're preserving society by trying to cut down on repeat offenders.
Our current prison system is broken.
Re:Tape (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Tape (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't get me wrong, I agree with the sentiment and the emotion but throwing one of our basic civil right out the window (no cruel and unusual punishment) in an effort to protect a different one (privacy) is exactly the kind of thing that we need to be fighting against. Our basic rights exist for a reason, and while I hold privacy and the first ammendment especially close to my heart, I don't want to see any of them eroded. Besides, the legal system had better be more than capable of dealing with this situation, it's so clear cut that I can't even imagine what was going through the heads of those responsible. If our legal system can't deal with it correctly... well then I'm one step closer to believing that our country is heading for the sewers (if it's not already there).
Re:Tape (Score:3, Insightful)
No mention of what the picture was, but if it was something involving nudity then... wouldn't a better course of action be to sue the school district for being in possession of child pornography?
Re:Tape (Score:5, Insightful)
The taxpayers are exactly who should be punished. They elected a set of officials who apparently believe it's okay to spy on families in their own homes. Government is not apart from us. The government is established by us and draws its powers from us. If taxpayers can't be bothered to learn about the political persuations and tendencies of those they elect, then they deserve the blow-back when things go wrong. Hopefully, this will teach the public to think more critically when filling out their ballot.
You might say that this outcome could not possibly have been foreseen. That may be true, but the fault is still the people, who did not demand the appropriate levels of oversight of their educational institutions. You send your kids for 6 to 8 hours every day to this place. To not know what's going on is absolutely unacceptable. You ARE the root of the power of the government. You ARE responsible for what it does.
Somewhere in China.. (Score:1, Insightful)
... a newspaper article is being printed detailing the Big Brother State of U.S.A and the horrific conditions children must suffer in the West to complete an education.
Tip of the Iceberg? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:at the very least (Score:4, Insightful)
The lawsuit alleges the cameras captured images of Harriton High School students and their families as they undressed and in other compromising situations.
Emphasis added. I know there's a lot of strong emotions going around on this subject, but lets try to keep it reasonable shall we?
The emphasis was unnecessary. I even used the word "allegedly" in my introduction to that quote. What exactly was unreasonable about my post?
Re:Fuck you (Score:1, Insightful)
Strangely enough this captures my beliefs 100%, normally posts like this come off as trollish, but this is 100% dead the fuck on.
Re:Tape (Score:4, Insightful)
Technically, being in line with the constitution as a REAL conservative would be, the government has no place in abortion and is obliged to provide the same and equal/fair rights to all (aka gays treated equally).
But the people who claim to be 'real' conservatives right now are actually just judeo-christian theotards thumping bibles and parading apple pies like they are the true real Americans of constitutions' past. NOT. A real conservative would actually care about the constitutionally founded separation of church and state and enforce it. The people claiming to be real conservatives are far from that...
Ron Paul was a real conservative.
Re:Don't take candy from the government (Score:3, Insightful)
This is why you don't want "free" computers from the government, you want the government to NOT take that money away from you to begin with so you can buy your own computer...
That's a very twisted argument. This is not a reason for the government not to give students computers, because the government shouldn't be doing this, and nobody would really expect them to.
You might have a point somewhere in there, but you undermine it by taking a bizarre outlier of a case and portraying it as the norm. After all, if a school can do this, what's to say that you are not being monitored by the laptop that you buy privately from a company?
Re:The bigger question... (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh yes, please let us speculate about the "improper behavior in the home" in a fact-free vacuum!
The GPP wasn't speculating about what the student was doing, but instead about why a school would think it had the right to care.
Re:Teaching them early (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Tape (Score:5, Insightful)
I would agree with you except that i suspect that the lesson would be completely lost on the general populace.
That's why they should face the consequences of voting for people who, by proxy, break the law on their behalf. Everyone who voted for the school board that approved/was responsible for this has a share of the guilt. By having to pay higher taxes/lose services to cover the lawsuit penalties will force them to learn the lesson.
Re:Why am I not surprised. (Score:3, Insightful)
Please shoot yourself if you think that private education doesn't do the same thing, even home schooling is mostly based on indoctrination.
I graduated from a private school. I left public school because they were both indoctrinating, and discriminating against students based on their socio-economic background.
Because every private school is benevolent and doesn't care whether you pay them? They say "You're the poorest, join us for free!"? They don't have any agenda, religious or otherwise? They don't have a mission to make you think that they're the coolest school, and make your parents think that they're the best school, so they keep paying?
Keep dreaming.
Re:Tape (Score:3, Insightful)
what makes you think our system can handle this properly at all?
You know what I see?
I see fifteen years of litigation. I see suits and counter-suits, and appeals and such going on for years and years. I see the prinicpal and board walking way free as a bird. I see the taxpayers not only having to pay huge amounts in legal fees and such, but also huge jury awards.
I see, in the end, nothing will change. Lawyers get rich, government power expands, taxes go up, power consolidates with a few bureaucrats, unelected by anyone.
If it was up to me, I'd be going for Prison, and not ClubFed prison, but PMITA Prison for everyone involved. From the Principal, Board of Education, Technical people involved. Even the teachers if they were involved. ANYONE that had touched the decision that this was a good idea.
Re:at the very least (Score:3, Insightful)
That's all well and good, but ... well, look, the original guy said:
"School officials might avoid child porn charges if they prove they didn't see any lewd images"
and you responded with:
"The AP is reporting that they allegedly did see lewd images"
So if all you're saying is that "these guys say they're probably guilty", I guess my question would be how is your response in the least bit relevant to his statement?
Judging by the +5 mod you got, I'm guessing that many people read your comment as I did - as stating that the plaintiffs possess solid evidence of these images having been created. That's the only interpretation that makes sense in the context of the comment you were responding to.
You're right - their guilt or innocence is going to be determined in court ... but that's what the first guy was saying, too, so your response to him was redundant at best.
Re:Tape (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sorry but you're wrong about punishing taxpayers. Your suggestion punishes people who voted AGAINST the officials who broke the law. The people who voted against were doing all they legally could and do not deserve to be punished. You keep saying, "people" and "taxpayers" as if everyone is unanimous which is not true. Taxpayers are not the same as stockholders who can divest anytime they don't like the performance of a company.
The officials who acted are the ones to be punished and removed if applicable, and "the people" should be required to hold another election.
Re:What kind of crack were they on? (Score:5, Insightful)
As for the other point this seems to be final act in a string of monumentally stupid decisions on the part of everyone involved at the school.
- In theory giving them laptops might save money by requiring fewer expensive text books and it could help out with a couple of classes but in practice it's probably a pretty bad idea because of porn, warez, vandalism, and apparently the terrible judgment of the administrators etc.
- Getting them laptops with webcams is a terrible idea because kids are dumb enough to take pictures of themselves nude on a school computer without help of the administrators. It's a damn good idea to keep yourself out of the equasion when it comes to pictures and videos of nude children.
- Setting those laptops up with spying software is beyond stupid unless it was intended to help track down stolen laptops and even then they should have exceptionally tight controls on the use of something like that. I'd say that the bare minimum for using this kind of thing would be a police report filed by the student stating the laptop was stolen and having a police officer present when the software is used.
- Using the software to track down students skipping school, drinking, looking at porn, doing drugs, having sex, etc. is a horrible idea that is almost certainly criminal.
Re:Tape (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Tape (Score:3, Insightful)
Why should I be punished for something I had absolutely no control over while the ones who voted these criminals into office are not ?
You have control over it. You are funding the behavior by paying taxes. You have a choice. You can influence others to vote more intelligently. You can run for office yourself. In the extreme, you can move to another political district where your tax dollars won't be used to finance child porn. I know, democracy and responsibility can sometimes be inconvenient.
Re:Why am I not surprised. (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not advocating lying.
I'm merely pointing out that the situation punishes honesty. I do so to criticize the situation.
Re:The ever growing list of reasons (Score:2, Insightful)
Given the parents I know, I would trust many kids more to the public/private schools than their parental tutelage.
Sorry, 2nd reply here.. I find your statement here pretty disturbing. Karl Marx probably would not have phrased it differently than you do. Would you consider that your well intended ideas are the very justification for state tyranny and destroying families?
"In theory..." (Score:3, Insightful)
Exactly.
It's easy to pose a shaky, but ultimately successful, argument for installing remote-activated cameras in the laptops. Let's see: anti-theft, child welfare investigations (since abuse reports often come through the school), think of the children(!), etc. But the dynamic duo of principal and sysadmin can't foresee their own (or their colleagues) patent stupidity. This is the why seemingly great ideas, like the full-body scanners in airports, are actually awful: because they are great until the *inevitable* critical mass of stupid is reached. Nobody wants to hear that though, "Your idea is good in theory, but in reality some bonehead (possibly even you!) will abuse it and the cost will be greater than whatever benefits we gained along the way." So we live and don't learn.
Of course, I have to be a jerk about it, but your (probably joking) recommendation to shoot school admins who fail to learn the Bill of Rights is exactly one such idea. We can all get behind that idea and say "YEAH! SCREW THOSE JERKS! MAKE SURE THEY LEARN!!" And then we all forget to ask "wait, who is doing the grading?" Granted we aren't likely to implement that idea... but there are plenty of morons who would try!
Criminal Charges: Attempted Child Porn (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, if I were a parent, I would be unbelievably angry if school faculty came bursting into my home uninvited. This is no different.
School faculty only has a right to deal with a student's behavior when they are on school grounds or attending school functions.
Personally, I hope criminal charges are filed against the school administration that did this.
Re:Tape (Score:2, Insightful)
Yeah but there's a difference between cameras catching teens having sex in a public area, and cameras that were snuck-into private homes and caught sex or nudity in the bedrooms.
I recall one landlord who mounted cameras in a tenant's apartment was severely prosecuted - not for child porn of course, but for invasion of privacy, production of lewd images, and so on. The school principal/teachers will face all of that PLUS the underage porn charge.
Re:Tape (Score:5, Insightful)
Something that I think is worth pointing out from the first paragraph:
the laptops issued to high-school students in the well-heeled Philly suburb have webcams that can be covertly activated by the schools' administrators, who have used this facility to spy on students and even their families.
The elected officials are usually someone like the school board. The administrators are typically the people running the school itself... Namely... the people responsible are probably not directly elected. So, having the voter pay the bill at best punishes someone indirectly responsible. That's not at all like punishing voters for who they elect. This also means that the taxpayers who can't vote there are punished with no say.
In fact, using myself as an example: I work in Detroit, an elected official [wikipedia.org] here was recently convicted for perjury, which resulted in $8.4 million in cost to the city taxpayer (which means I paid some of it). I didn't even get to vote against the guy because I live outside the city... Yet I have to help pay the bill. That's not even remotely right.
So... I disagree that the taxpayer *should* be held responsible... It just turns out that they end up being held when public figured get involved... And they probably will be in this case.
consent (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:LMSD response to 'invasion of privacy' allegati (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:LMSD response to 'invasion of privacy' allegati (Score:3, Insightful)
I wouldn't be surprised to find that the student in question reported the laptop lost or stolen. If the School district is pressing charges, they shouldn't comment directly on the case until the student is tried and convicted of theft of the laptop.
If that was true, why did the school discipline the kid for "inappropriate behavior in the home?" I realize that this information was released by the parents/lawyers, not the school district, but if the district's purpose was to nail the kid for theft, why punish him for something else? It makes more sense to keep quiet while you collect your evidence, then bring the hammer down. By punishing the kid too soon they tipped their hand and opened themselves up to this mess. This would not even have become news. Something still doesn't add up.
Re:Tape (Score:1, Insightful)
The taxpayers are exactly who should be punished. They elected a set of officials who apparently believe it's okay to spy on families in their own homes.
Kiss my asshole, you sanctimonious fucking son of a bitch. No voter can possibly know every hare-brained idea every elected official might come up with. You don't even know everything your closest relative thinks.
The correct response is to send in US marshals (yeah, the ones who show up on SBA raids for illegal software) and seize all school computers. If they find evan a single image of an underage student who unknowingly undressed while the camera was runnibg, round up every involved official, charge them with production of child porn, strip them of theoir jobs, slap them on a sex offenders list so they can never enter another school in the US and jail their loose asses. But only after tieing them to a pole in the gym where the students and their parents can kick their genitals bloody.
Re:Why am I not surprised. (Score:3, Insightful)
Hmmm, I'm just still not understanding what this has to do with a stringed instrument.
Re:LMSD response to 'invasion of privacy' allegati (Score:3, Insightful)
I wouldn't be surprised to find that the student in question reported the laptop lost or stolen.
If so, the kid would never allow his parents to go ahead with a major lawsuit.
If the School district is pressing charges
Apparently they don't. And they'd do that in an instant if a theft is reported.
kid tries to smear School before he goes to jail himself
In that scenario the kid only needs to say "Sorry, the laptop fell behind the seat in the car and I only found it a moment ago."
Re:Tape (Score:4, Insightful)
The taxpayers are exactly who should be punished. They elected a set of officials who apparently believe it's okay to spy on families in their own homes. ...
RIIIIGHT.... and your sister should go to jail for child abuse because she married a guy that 5 years into the relationship started drinking and then suddenly snapped, and beat the kids severely. Since he was beating the kids and she CHOSE to marry him, she therefore is just as liable for the abuse to the kids as he is, from the first unforseen blows, with no allowances for hindsight (eg she left him after the first time he became abusive).
Using your logic, the above scenario makes sense too.
I think the individuals responsible for the decision should be brought up on criminal charges PERSONALLY, and not as a member of the administration. Intent or no, this was clearly a bad idea dreamed up by a warped individual.
Re:Tape (Score:3, Insightful)
Suing the School/District only punishes taxpayers and students.