Prison Bans D&D For Mimicking Gang Structure 496
Trepidity writes "In a case that has been winding its way through the courts for a while now, a Wisconsin prison banned inmates from playing Dungeons & Dragons, using the justification that 'one player is denoted the Dungeon Master... [who] is tasked with giving directions to other players... [which] mimics the organization of a gang.' The prison also cited some sparse evidence that a handful of non-inmate D&D players once committed some crimes that allegedly were related to their D&D playing. On Monday the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the regulation (PDF) against challenges from inmates. The court appeared skeptical of the ban, sarcastically referring to it as the 'war on D&D,' but upheld it nonetheless as having a 'rational basis.' Law professor Ilya Somin suggests that the court may have had no choice, given how deferential rational-basis review usually is."
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:4, Insightful)
So it's a stupid rule that just happens to be upheld by a fairly reasonable law.
Then they also have to ban... (Score:1, Insightful)
If a game where one person moderates the actions of the other players is banned because of that, then they will have to ban every game that has a referee or judge, as well as any plays that have a director, music that uses a conductor, and so many other activities.
Admittedly I never though about prisoners doing any of those things, including D&D, but hey, whatever works.
Perhaps Wisconsin just wants their inmates lifting weights so they benchpress a freaking car during their next robbery or something. Obviously more desirable than letting someone participate in a moderated adlib fantasy play where you (usually) take the part of heroes against the forces of evil. Can't let them criminal types learn ta use dem brains and actually tink dey can better demselves. Why if dey did dat, us cops and law-yurs wouldn't have nobody ta prosecute...
Sorry for the extreme sarcasm, but those idiots deserve it. Maybe if they played more D&D (and a few other PnP RPGs) they'd have less riots, violence, and repeat offenders. Of course, taking away a gamers books and dice might just start one...
What A Flawed Premise... (Score:5, Insightful)
Clearly, no-one involved in the case has ever played a decent game of D&D. But why bother with facts when prejudice and hysteria will suffice ?
For the 0.0001% of Slashdotters who've never played, a good "dungeon master" (just like a good computer game programmer) creates an interactive environment for players to explore.
What the players decide to do from there is what can make the game an interesting vehicle for self-discovery and excercising one's imagination and problem-solving abilities.
It no more mimics the structure of a gang than someone attending a lecture or watching a play.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:4, Insightful)
As the article noted, lots of games might come under their "mimics gang structure" argument:
Re:Uh-huh (Score:3, Insightful)
Here's a better idea... ban crimes!
Nip the problem in the bud.
Re:Escapism (Score:3, Insightful)
You may have thought that you'd escaped for a few hours, but you didn't escape at all, and that taste of imagined freedom turns to ash.
Th cruelest prisons always have a window to the open sky...
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Not to be too elitist, but would it be a bad thing if they did ban other games like football? I mean, I don't mean to be harsh here, but these people are in prison. I'd like a fair, equitable, just applications of principles here. But at the same time, anything more than educational reading and meditation in a prison seems like it's a reward not a right.
Perhaps someone here with more experience in this sort of thing can comment on how rights like these apply when you're in jail.
Re:Absurd (Score:3, Insightful)
I openly admit to not reading ALL comments prior to posting this, but.... I think the top level posters so far are missing the real issue here. These people are in Jail for a reason. Let's not treat them to things they do not deserve.
Jail should be a place to serve a sentance and to hopefully let the the criminals reflect on their crime and hopefully learn a lesson. It SHOULDN'T be a place where criminals get to hang out and play board games. That's just ridiculous. Yes, D&D and any other aformentioned board games are harmless, but enabling someone to have fun in a place of punishment is just downright absurd. I know people who have been to jail, and while they say it was absolutely no fun at all, their behavior after their sentance really didn't change.
The system is broken. We can't let people forget the reason they're being punished...
If they are not treated to any entertainment at all, they will become depressed and kill themselves. Clearly, this is not the intention of jail either, is it? I understand that you have some sort of sadistic need to see these people suffer, but there are limits to how you can treat people (yes, inmates are people too), both stemming from psychology and international law.
Punish as punish can (Score:1, Insightful)
Yes, yes! Let the only board game be waterboarding!
Seriously. I don't get why you folks are so thirsty for other's punishment.
Ideally, prison should be there for society to protect itself (its members) from criminal behaviour. Anything going beyond that is too much. Society should treat inmates with as much respect as possible and with as little restrictions as necessary.
Get a grip.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
The Benefits of D&D for a prisoner (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a DM someone who sets the rules of the game and make sure everyone plays with in the imaginary boundaries. The DM is an authority figure and the players must acquesce to his/her rules. This is basically a model for prison life and some would say life as a "good citizen".
If the rules are in dispute you negotiate and resolve the issue before moving on. Negotation is definitely something you want to teach to violent offenders since they may not have had any 1st hand experience with it.
Basic mathematics and reading. Playing a game and being good at it requires one to learn the rules of the game. You want to find that numbers advantage? the DM isn't going to hand it to you on a silver platter. Many small gamers learn to read so they can figure out what to do next or what the screen is telling them and the same can apply in a prison setting with low literacy rates and math skills.
Abstract problem solving skills. Ok this makes the criminal more dangerous but it could be a skill set that could be used for good and finding a respectable job. (yes I know about job aps and disclosure of arrests/prison time)
As some one said before socializing with others as well as team work to accomplish goals together.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:4, Insightful)
"..anything more than educational reading and meditation in a prison seems like it's a reward not a right."
Right on! I want people coming out of prison extremely bitter and angry that the last few to several to many months to years of their lives were joyless and unrewarding. I want them walking around free society having no fresh recollection of what it meant to feel happy or satisfied. I want them to be suddenly forced to interact with functioning members of society immediately after they have been denied any forms of entertainment or amusement in an otherwise hellish living situation.
How could there possibly be a downside to this?
Re:What A Flawed Premise... (Score:3, Insightful)
If the prison had actually just said, "we banned D&D because it was causing trouble", the whole thing would've seemed a lot more reasonable to me, and probably not really worth commenting on. I'm not quite sure why they didn't just say that, actually, unless it really wasn't causing problems, so they couldn't anyone to testify that D&D-playing prisoners were causing problems--- so they had to resort to the more hypothetical rationale, bolstered by testimony from a "gang expert", that D&D might potentially cause gang activity.
I'm guessing it's more likely a strange sort of paranoia, where some warden really did think it was somehow gang-related. I personally would rather have prisoners playing D&D than lifting weights all the time, though, which seems strangely to be permitted at most prisons.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally, I just think the Warden doesn't want them having FUN.
And when you get down to brass tacks, it is a fucking PRISON.
When I looked at this from that perspective, it makes quite a lot of sense. Prison isn't supposed to be fun, folks.
"Hey! I never have to work again, my room and board are provided for me and I get to play D&D all fucking day!" This is most old-school gamers wet dream. The only thing missing is Mom cleaning up the basement for you once a month.
C'mon folks. We have to make it a deterrent, not something to look forward to. The only reason this is fucked up is because they don't just come out and state it that way. Instead, they rationalize and tie this shit up in a courtroom. They could have just said "No fucking games" and been done with it.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:3, Insightful)
I hate to be a me-too here, but you beat me to making a comment.
I see all these people going "Waa waa they won't let prisoners play D&D in prisoner." What the fuck? It's prison. It's punishment. You're crying about not being able to play a game? What if another story came along and said "Prisoners are banned from playing Grand Theft Auto because it encourages gangs." It doesn't matter the fucking justification, it's prison. Prison isn't supposed to be fun.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Everybody knows that the "Dungeons and Dragons. Satan's game!" shtick is pure comedy; but it is based on a real undercurrent of hysteria.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:5, Insightful)
There is no one specific reason for putting people in prison, although generally people see it as being for protection of others and punishment of criminals (some would add to discourage other criminals). Personally I think protecting others is the most important of these reasons, and if letting the inmates play D&D in anyway improves the generally negative prison enviroment Ive got no issue with it.
Heh (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:2, Insightful)
The stated goals of prisons are to rehabilitate,
Sure, rehabilitation might prevent future crimes by the same offenders, but some of us think prison should be more about punishment instead of rehabilitation. If prison was an extremely hard punishment, to the point that people were actively scared of going, it would deter more people from committing crimes in the first place.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes but if you go too far in that direction then you put a kid in for shoplifting and get a psychopath back.
Which is likely to cause more crime.
Making it scary sounds good but once you get to the point where you're maiming the minds of the people exposed to it you start to be self defeating.
We could forget rehabilitation and just punish all crimes with severe public torture with whips, flails, acids, electrodes hooks and knives which I'm sure would be very scary but I doubt it would do much to keep people safe.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:3, Insightful)
You've got it mixed up. Prisons in the US are for rehabilitation, not punishment. The sad fact is that they aren't very good at the former, probably due to being run by private companies that don't give a shit & are paid by headcount.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes but if you go too far in that direction then you put a kid in for shoplifting and get a psychopath back.
Which is likely to cause more crime.
I suspect you're talking to the same people who want to fight terrorism by killing lots of Arabs (thereby guaranteeing more terrorism). There's something in their psyche that would rather have a violent response to a problem which doesn't work, than a peaceful response which does. The first is somehow more satisfying to them. The second one is sort of.. offensive to their sensibilities.
(My two cents, garnered from many conversations with friends who lean right-wing pro-authoritarian)
Re:Absurd (Score:5, Insightful)
How does that help? The only thing you'd ensure would be that those who do make it out have a justified hatred towards society and will definitely commit more and worse crimes. And, of course, everyone who does commit a crime would have a strong incentive to kill all witnesses as prison would be designed to crush the inmates' soul and capital punishment wouldn't offer much of an additional threat.
And all of these observations are besides the fact that the very statement that inmates don't deserve to be called human is a sign of complete moral bankruptcy and nothing short of appalling.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:2, Insightful)
Actually the reverse psychology might have merit too.
I understand your point and do think of it as punishment for things done, however, if I look at it as a smart person trying to think outside the box, because let's face it, crime is at an all time high, and prison is no deterrent of any kind.....they come out of there less reformed then before...angry they got caught, and how they are going to f*ck sh*t up once they get out....
I say, force them all to play d&d 24/7, so that they get addicted to it so badly they have their own little
meets, then once they are out in the real world, there lives revolve around these meets to play d&d, and they also get out of shape enough to realize, forget robbing a bank, you're not even able to run the distance of a block, let alone make a getaway.
Who knows, it might make them softer too, depending on how the dungeon master steers them towards....saving a princess or doing good deeds within the game, might change their outlook, and give them a less jaded experience in jail.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:3, Insightful)
You're a fucking genius, I tell ya
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:5, Insightful)
When I looked at this from that perspective, it makes quite a lot of sense. Prison isn't supposed to be fun, folks.
"Hey! I never have to work again, my room and board are provided for me and I get to play D&D all fucking day!" This is most old-school gamers wet dream. The only thing missing is Mom cleaning up the basement for you once a month.
I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but this is ridiculous.
So...having 99% of you civil rights taken from you is not punishment enough?
So...becoming institutionalized to the point that many cannot function in society for any amount of time is not punishment enough?
So...not being able to see you friends and family except for in extremely controlled circumstances is not punishment enough?
So...becoming stigmatized by society to the point that it is extremely difficult to get a decent job, get a decent apartment, or to some extent have any interaction with the public without being pre-judged is not punishment enough?
So...getting beaten and or raped on a regular basis is not punishment enough?
So...eating prison food isn't punishment enough?
So...being forced to spend large amounts of time surrounded by sociopaths isn't punishment enough?
I could go on and on...
Another gang like structure in prisons (Score:2, Insightful)
The general definition of a gang of people being just a group with a leader is so general that every human on average probably could be considered to be in 5+ gangs.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:3, Insightful)
"one player is denoted the Boss... [who] is tasked with giving directions to other employees... [which] mimics the organization of a gang."
Integration at its finest !
Re:Absurd (Score:5, Insightful)
Prison is also supposed to rehabilitate.
And even if you think this is nonsense: Prison should under no circumstances produce better criminals.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:2, Insightful)
It's flawed logic. People believe that because most people who murder on behalf of religion are fundamentalist or extremist, that all fundamentalists and extremists are murderers.
It's simply not true.
Having worked in a prison (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, if you have been an AD&D player (or a player of any number of other RPG games), think about the dynamics of game play. Games often include more than two or three people. Players often carry a stack of papers (e.g., maps, character sheets, game manuals) to and from game sessions. The group might get loud, but some members of the group might have a secret side conversation with another player or the DM. Notes might need to be passed (e.g., "I want to pickpocket the baron", "I want to move into the shadows behind the paladin"). Table conversation will include various weapons and tactics. Althought talk of some medieval weapons could easily be discerned as fantasy (e.g., "I'll run him through with my halberd"), others could easily match a contemporary context (e.g., "I'll knife the guard while you try to get his keys"). Most groups with which I've played held the DM in high regard; it was as if the DM had his own cult following or at least a lot of resepect. That behavior, to the untrained observer, would appear to mimic some gang behavior. Prison guards have no way of knowing if such a behavior is just a game, overt gang activity, or a game being used to hide gang activity. To strive for safety and control, they must err toward interpreting events as the worst possible scenario.
If you are an RPG player, think through things that were said around your game table, and try to imagine hearing them as a prison guard or corrections officer. How might you interpret them?
People who really got into their game playing often would talk about the game anywhere and everywhere. Can you imagine a guard in a lunchroom overhearing AD&D players discussing a plan to escape the tower by feigning illness before attacking the guards when they come to investigate? Can you imagine players discussing plans to dig an (in-game) escape tunnel while having recreation time in the yard? The game could easily be used as a veil to allow the player to communicate real escape plans out in the open while the rest of the facility thinks they are just a bunch of RPG geeks. I can't say I fully agree with the decision to bar AD&D, but I can say that I understand the reasoning behind the decision.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, from another viewpoint, the whole prison system "mimicks gang structure". So, where would be be then?
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Ok, but turn it around and let's take a look at it from the prisoner's eyes. You know what a prisoner's biggest problem is, at least in medium-low security wards? Not drugs, not gang wars, not being locked up. It's the ultimate torture for the human being: Boredom. Prison life is utterly, mind numbing boring. Did you know that working is a privilege in most prisons? For good reasons, you finally get to do something with your time. Yes, being allowed to work is a fuckin' privilege. It sure as hell beats sitting in your cell and watching the wall paint.
And people who have nothing to do will find something to do. There's a simple reason why drugs can be stored away in a prison environment: The inmates have a LOT more time finding and creating hideouts for them than the wardens have to search for them. And they have a ton of time on their hands to spend on finding hiding spots and designing them.
Instead of outlawing playing D&D, I'd have made it a huge privilege. Something to aspire to. Be good, behave, be the best inmate there is and you get to play. Hand your inmates tons of material to read and they will spend their time creating and designing their characters instead of thinking where to stow their dope. Which is, btw, also mostly a problem due to boredom. Yes, being high is preferable to watching that blotch of paint on the wall.
I'm fairly sure that prison will soon see a lot new problems spring up. They'll have a lot of very bored inmates at their hand, and boredom is the road to problems in a prison environment.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:3, Insightful)
How does going out into the rec yard to play basketball contribute?
How does having a library contribute?
How does having windows, lights and environmental control contribute?
If the goal of prison is just to punish and deter, why don't we just start lopping off extremities or torturing them? Perhaps because the goal of prison was more than just to punish and deter but narrow minded vengeful nitwits have decided that getting their just deserts was more important than reformation.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:3, Insightful)
*blink*
Fuck! You're right! Let's outlaw companies and corporations!
Re:Having worked in a prison (Score:3, Insightful)
Thanks for your perspective.
What sort of alternative collaborative storytelling game would you propose for a prison setting?
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Because imprisoned automatically means guilty.
Oh, wait! We have a fallible legal system, that falsely imprisons people all the time!
Because imprisoned automatically means "monstrous anti-social demon."
Oh, wait! We have a variety of laws that are punishable by prison time, meaning that such things as repeated misdemeanors, "victimless" crimes like drug use unconnected to other crime, and all sorts of other crimes not involving violence or high theft can result in incarceration.
Basically, you're full of crap.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree with you on principle, but I'd like to make one side point - prison rape is not intended as part of the punishment/rehabilitation program, and is a huge PROBLEM, one that modern U.S. culture in particular insists on treating as a joke.
It's not funny - people don't deserve to be raped, regardless of their crimes; and given that the worst offenders tend to be the ones most prone to violent, impulsive behavior, it's usually the less violent inmates that bear the brunt of it.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:3, Insightful)
So we should throw the whole basis of appeals by wrongfully sentenced prisoners out the window? Or just their ability to protest abuses and mismanagement of the system. Sure, maybe this doesn't constitute those, but your suggestion would cut those down just as severely.
who should these "outsiders" be? How do you decide whether they are being impartial? What are you paying them?
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Who the fuck isn't scared of going to prison?
People who've been there before.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:5, Insightful)
With an attitude like that, good luck ever getting into prison.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Do these elements show socialization skills? Cooperative ability? Evaluation of morals? Imagine if the prison ruled that all
players must be Lawful Good.
Then players will secretly be chaotic evil, masquerading as lawful good. Let's see them stop that!
I'd think we would all know by now that there are basically two 'batcrap insane' alignments in the game: Lawful Good and Chaotic Neutral. It would be arguably better for these to be banned from play, before someone gets shanked.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:4, Insightful)
Christian Fundamentalism is basically "Let's strip off all of the ritual, tradition, cruft, and bloat that's crept into Christianity over the past 2000 years, and get back to what was preached and practiced back in the First Century". It's like clearing a machine of all the spyware and unused programs to get back to a pristine state. Why would you NOT want to do that? A lot of what gets labelled Fundamentalist isn't. It's whack-jobbery.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:3, Insightful)
So, torture, followed by brainwashing. Repeat after me - "Cruel and unusual punishment is outlawed by the Bill of Rights in the U.S. Constitution, Amendment 8."
Or, with more accuracy and less hyperbole, stress followed by re-socialization. The GP is talking about a few months of high-stress conditions. The conditions need to be low-stress enough so that the convict can handle it for a few months, but finds it really unpleasant.
The issue you need to consider is, when does increasing unpleasantness cross the line into cruelty? When does stress become traumatic? Every experience changes you, but when does "changes you" become "warps you" or "breaks you?"
You have to understand that this partially depends on what aspect of life you are talking about. The measure of "cruelty" differs when comparing the workplace to a bar fight to a war. If you do not take that into account, or you end up calling something "cruel" when it is actually normal or even mild in that context.
I would never say that sort of high-stress treatment is anything less than cruel for an office worker; but for a soldier, it is normal, he suffered worse than that in basic training. You have to decide where a convict sits on that scale.
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:3, Insightful)
OH! You must be the other rational person on Slashdot!
I've been looking for you, you know. I've got some of your mail ;-)
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Is it just D&D ? (Score:2, Insightful)
I can agree with this statement wholeheartedly.
However, even if you believe that revelatory knowledge is a source of truth, how could the Bible be correct? There are two conflicting stories of creation in the first chapter alone. The Catholic church decided which early Christian writings were canonical, and which were not. Do you think that they were divinely inspired? Catholics accept many apocryphal [wikipedia.org] books as worthy of study, but other denominations disagree:
So, was it divine inspiration that struck a church council in 1546? Were the Protestants right? Do you believe, as many Protestants do, in KJV only? What about recently found books, such as the Gospel of Judas. Is that book divine? It's certainly closer to the original sources. It seems to me that without even agreement on which books should be included, calling it correct or incorrect is a useless endeavor, as its contents vary from church to church.