Google Hacked, May Pull Out of China 687
D H NG writes "Following a sophisticated attack on Google infrastructure originating from China late last year, Google has decided to take 'a new approach' to China. In their investigation, Google found that more than 20 large companies had been infiltrated and dozens of Chinese human rights activists' Gmail accounts had been compromised. Google has decided to 'review the feasibility of [its] business operations in China,' no longer censoring results in Google.cn, and if necessary, to 'shut down Google.cn, and potentially [Google's] offices in China.'"
Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Interesting)
maybe there just isn't any money to be made there without problems that threaten Google's reputation that it cashes in with elsewhere.
Good question. I doubt that the cost in loss of goodwill exceeds potential revenue in China. Which in turn means that there might be something else at play. Does Google want to play hardball with China? Is it concerned that the external costs of doing business in China (exposed servers, lots of red tape, etc) outweighs the revenue it gets from being available in China?
Either which way, I'm going to follow this. I doubt that much will change - but the various exchanges and discussions that come up around this should make for a good read.
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Don't forget China's population is 4,3 times the one of USA. That still makes and interesting market when you consider that there is always richer people in any population. Granted, it would constitute a smaller market than USA but still a larger market than many other countries.
A tangibles option (Score:4, Interesting)
Google has a tangibles option. They could start not emphasizing ads as much as actually selling stuff themselves, ie a super amazon effort. They are starting now with their cellphone, this branching out..and there is nothing stopping them from going on to all sorts of other tangible products, which would make their advertising just a force multiplier instead of an economic end game, even if all they started out with was a profit sharing deal with ad buyers..
Re:A tangibles option (Score:4, Insightful)
In the end, Google is pretty good at being Google, and doesn't really need to crack into a completely different market, like selling everything, at least, not yet. Maybe years down the road, or maybe they could sneak into it very slowly, but I just don't see this as a practical business move any time soon.
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:4, Funny)
Google got $300 million in revenues last year in China. Sure, that might not be as much as you earn, with your ill informed postings around the internet, but it is still a lot of money.
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Interesting)
Personally I think China in it's present form is toast, first the Himalayan glaciers [slashdot.org] are receding precipitously due to Black soot particulates [livescience.com],which will devastate the Asian watershed, we're heading into 30 years of mini-ice age, Beijing was hit by its heaviest snowfall in 60 years [wattsupwiththat.com] so Asian agriculture may be in for quite a hard time. Cold [nasa.gov], thirsty and hungry people get mean, and some kind of massive change is coming as far as China, the magic eight ball says "it's a good time to get the hell out of Dodge".
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Informative)
Hell look at the current debacle with Cadmium. One of the excuses given that it's even used is that jewlery made of it is usually marked for sale only in China. At least people here have the ability to find out in retrospect lil-Jamie's necklace you gave her for X-Mas impairs brain function. In China that junk is sold all over without someone even thinking about it.
I travel to China frequently, and see this kind of thing happening all over. Market of over a billion my ass. More like market of just over a billion waiting to see what they can copy next.
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
Good summary of GP's point. Bu, then you say this:
Does Google want to play hardball with China?
There's no hardball involved. Google looks at China and goes "It cost us more than it's getting us." Pure business, with the added bonus of nice PR for being the first corp that said no to the PRC.
And this is devastating for the Chinese government. After keeping their populace docile and stupid, what they want more than anything else is to be taken seriously as an economic player, sit at the big boy's table and rake in some of that fat global trade cash. So, when one of the biggest companies around says China's market is more hassle than it's worth, it shows them up for the bumpkins that they still are.
But we knew this was coming (and hopefully Nixon did too). Can't have all the benefits of capitalism without losing some of the "benefits" of totalitarianism. You can have some of one and lots of the other (like most Western democracies), but not lots of both.
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Informative)
The scary thing is, it is essentially impossible for a foreign company to do business in China without bribes, even a small company. The Rio Tinto case wasn't publicized much in the mainstream media (at least in the US), but it was fairly well covered in the Wall Street Journal, and I guarantee executives of a lot of companies paid attention. Being arrested in China because the government doesn't like you is a risk that can outweigh a huge profit margin.
I would honestly suggest that if you are considering outsourcing to China, that you do it instead to India or Eastern Europe, because the unknowns are much smaller.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Interesting)
An acquaintance works for a Canadian company that sells machines to apply a specialized chemical coating to certain types of containers (the vagueness is intentional). A trip of executives and engineers resulted in a sale of four units (enough for a small company) and a couple of hundred thousand liters of coating to a mid-size Chinese company.
On the next trip their were no more sales. In fact, the machines were reverse engineered (as was the coating substance) and are actively being sold at a fraction of the price, despite that all of the Canadian stuff had appropriate IP protection.
Between this sort of stuff and the shenanigans that the Chinese are involved in with respect to cooking the books of their stock markets, I'm not so sure I'd call them an "emerging market". More like an "emerging bubble" waiting to take down their investors in the next few years.
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Interesting)
"the government didn't want to pay as much as Rio Tinto wanted to charge"
Which is the crux of the issue with China that I pray people in the west start waking up to.
When you do business in China, you're doing business with the corrupt and totalitarian Chinese Government - a nasty operation that has no intent of *ever* being any less corrupt and ruthless than it is now. The separation between any so called "private" business and the government (especially big business) in China is whatever the party leaders say it is at any given moment. Rio thought they were negotiating a tough iron ore deal with the Chinese foundries as they would do with any private business in any western democracy, that is they played hardball with them.
The problem is, the Chinese government decided it didn't like said foundries being negotiated with in such a harsh manner (who does this pip squeak company think it is embarrassing us internationally!) and so threw the top man Rio man in China in gaol where it then took three months to even bother *charging* him.
And of course we know the upstanding state of justice in the Chinese legal system...
Dear corporate west, if you deal with the totalitarian devil you will eventually get burned.
A lesson that should have been learned once and for all in the 1930s.
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:4, Insightful)
But "totalitarian" means that the government tries to run everything.
I don't think that is really the definition of totalitarian.
From WP:
Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state, usually under the control of a single political organization, faction, or class domination, recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible.
That is in line with most definitions I've seen for the term. It doesn't mean that the government does run everything, but only that the government has the power to run anything that it cares to.
In China there are no effective constraints on government power, except to the degree that they're limited by the laws of physics and resources (the rulers of China aren't actually gods). If the ruling class feels that a particular policy is beneficial to them, they have the power to enforce it. It is a crime to merely criticize the Chinese government, even if enforcement of this is imperfect.
The Chinese government realizes the economic benefits of a market economy, and so they ALLOW the market to function with a fair amount of freedom. However, this is an arrangement of convenience and when the rulers feel the need they can step in and do whatever needs to be done - with no due process of law.
This is in contrast to most democratic nations. If you live in France and the government doesn't like what you are saying, they pretty-much just have to live with it. If they think that you've committed a crime they have to follow due process and charge you in a reasonable time frame and give you a trial. In most democratic nations you are tried by a jury of your peers.
There are certainly exceptions - such as the recent anti-terrorism actions by the US Government. The fact that many people consider these actions outrageous and protest them is telling. In China such actions would be routine, and they do not suffer public criticism. Hopefully the US will move away from these kinds of policies, and I think that most politicians realize that they have overstepped their bounds. This sort of behavior is a step in the direction of totalitarianism.
I'd argue that China is as totalitarian a state as any has ever been. There can never be perfect totalitarianism as long as people's thoughts are secret. That doesn't change the fact that at a practical level many nations do have this style of government.
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Interesting)
The decision to sideline Beijing is remarkable as China is the largest iron ore importer, accounting for more than 50 per cent of the seaborne market.
The miners have so far held no substantive negotiations with the Chinese side, led by Baosteel, the big state-owned steel mill, according to people familiar with the talks.
They added that there were no plans to travel to China for talks, meeting instead in Singapore.
One executive said: "As far as I am concerned, they [the Chinese negotiators] could come over to Australia if they want to talk."
There are some allegations making the rounds that Obama was played by the Chinese in Copenhagen [guardian.co.uk]. The mining case plus Google's actions makes me wonder if the West has decided that China has gotten too big for its britches and is being reminded that they are not a superpower yet and that they need to learn to be a little more cooperative with the rest of the world.
India, O.K. Eastern Europe? Stay out of Russia. Guy I know had his business taken over by the Russian Mob. There is no Rule of Law in either Russia or China.
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
Can't have all the benefits of capitalism without losing some of the "benefits" of totalitarianism. You can have some of one and lots of the other (like most Western democracies), but not lots of both.
I think Singapore would beg to differ.
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Funny)
Pff. So can Monaco. Call me when you have a real country.
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:4, Insightful)
Singapore is a microstate. China is anything but.
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Interesting)
"It cost us more than it's getting us."
it probably isn't that simple. Google has to measure future value, or they may get stuck like some US based equipment manufactures did recently. IE years ago the China rules for big equipment orders (must build manufacturing in china...) was not profitable. Asian manufactures went in anyway. When china held up better, and did more stimulus money in manufacturing during this recession, the Asian manufactures were at a huge advantage with dealer networks, government contacts, China strategies... The US companies had to buy China partners to get in. Smart companies need to keep a finger on the pulse of these possibly emerging markets, if China opens up the disposable income gap could swap in a short time.
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:4, Interesting)
And this is devastating for the Chinese government. After keeping their populace docile and stupid,
Clearly, you've never met an actual Chinese person. Do you honestly think they don't know what's going on? No, they know. They just don't care. They're lives have been massively transformed for the better. Especially for those on the coast. (The western interior is another story.) They don't want to rock the boat. Everything is going swimingly for them. Why change?
what they want more than anything else is to be taken seriously as an economic player, sit at the big boy's table and rake in some of that fat global trade cash.
As the world's largest exporter, and fastest growing economy, aren't they already?
So, when one of the biggest companies around says China's market is more hassle than it's worth, it shows them up for the bumpkins that they still are.
Yeah, but Google isn't the biggest in China. It's Baidu. Blogging? That's MSN Spaces. I've yet to meet a Chinese student that does not have an MSN Spaces account. Twitter? I'm sorry. Did you mean Plurk?
Seriously, it's a whole other world outside the US, and you don't seem to know its players.
But we knew this was coming (and hopefully Nixon did too). Can't have all the benefits of capitalism without losing some of the "benefits" of totalitarianism. You can have some of one and lots of the other (like most Western democracies), but not lots of both.
Well that's the line Wall Street sold us back in 1989 while the Tianamen Square was still damp wasn't it? It's been 20 years. While some may argue the jury may still be out on that one (I wouldn't.); it's been long enough to get some indication of how its leaning, Let's examine the facts shall we?
China's GDP growth was at 11% last quarter [dailyfinance.com], for year-over-year growth of about 8%, and just now replaced Germany as the world's leading exporter. (Funny, how does a "Socialist" European Free Market(tm) democracy be former world's largest exporter, but the US can't be? The mind reels. Oh wait. No it doesn't.) Now China is luring back [slashdot.org] it's top talent, by offering them better opportunities. Allow me to quote from that article:
Such is the sweet taste of liberty, eh?
No, I believe that China has found it's third way [slate.com]. Not only "To be rich is glorious" [brainyquote.com], but "Sometimes when we [Chinese] have the faith we have to take different approaches to realize our beliefs. The ultimate goal is the common prosperity, but we have to let a group of people to get rich first." [slate.com] Or as Slate put it, "How do you say 'trickle down' in Mandarin?"
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
How many have you met, out of 1.2 billion, that you can speak for the Chinese people? Have you met those in prisons or those who can't get jobs because of their political beliefs? What about those who can't practice their religion? What about those who censor their beliefs so they can keep their jobs? What about those in Tibet? In Xinjiang? What about those protesting against the government all over China, because their rights are ignored and trampled by a political establishment which has no responsibility to the people (because they can't be voted out of office)? Why must the Communist Party jail democracy advocates and censor the Internet, if their people don't want it?
Your claims repeat the Communist Party line (and quote people who risk their jobs if they disagree), which itself is the same old canard despots worldwide have used: It's a Western cultural thing, not appropriate in our culture; our people don't want it. (And if they say they do, we put them in jail.) But the facts are overwhelming: Democracy and freedom are desires and values universal to humanity. The people of South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, India, Brazil, Turkey, South Africa and others, representing almost every other non-Western culture, have adopted it with great success. Only those who are forcibly repressed by their government are denied it. And all over the world, nearly 100% of the most prosperous, stable countries are democracies.
Every democracy started out as undemocratic and unfree (including the U.S. if you count the colonial era). To say the people of China lack the motivation or ability to seize it for themselves is patronizing and insulting. They have come so far from the Cultural Revolution in the 1960s, when a totalitarian dictator's incompetence and obscene disregard killed tens of millions and reduced their country to shambles, to today's relatively stable government and rocketing prosperity. There is no reason to think they will not continue and eventually enjoy the freedom and prosperity that so many others have achieved.
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
No government is all roses -- I can't think of one that is -- that's not the standard by which they are measured. It's a good sign when politicians can be removed from office and even jailed. Politically, economically, and by almost any other measure, Taiwan and Japan are much better off than China.
(For the record, Taiwan's first democratically elected President, Lee Teng-hui, is not in jail; a successor, Chen Shui-bian was jailed after he left office.)
Stereotype (Score:4, Interesting)
Clearly, you've never met an actual Chinese person. Do you honestly think they don't know what's going on? No, they know. They just don't care.
That's not entirely true. Often true, but not entirely.
In college I worked in a research group that was probably 80% Chinese. This was in the late 90s, when Internet as means of exchanging information was somewhat new. We worked shifts together monitoring experiments, which got boring, so naturally all of us swapped stories.
One of our research group was a Chinese visiting scholar, probably in his 40s. An American student asked him what he thought about Tienanmen. At first we thought he didn't understand what we were asking, but then it became clear - he'd never heard of this event. The government had successfully kept it from him.
This being the internet age, we quickly brought up the pictures of the event we're all familiar with now. It was one of the most memorable, but sad, experiences of my life to watch this guy go from denial to disbelief, learning that his government had committed atrocities against its people and covered it up. I can't really express how strongly that interaction affected me.
So unless things in China have changed drastically in the last 10 years - which is possible - China is still somewhat effective at keeping its people in the dark. And from what I experienced with our visiting scholar, there are Chinese people who care very much.
Re:Stereotype (Score:5, Informative)
Thanks to Internet, we Chinese ppl these days could get these information easier than before. We know about these things like Tienanmen event, etc. Well we have some places to share these information(p2p rocks, doesnt it?) As far as i know, most student in my college have knowledges of what happened those years and sometime we chat about that.
Admittedly, there is GFW trying to block some websites. But in the age of Internet, there is really nothing that could block us from the facts.
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:4, Insightful)
That's untrue. Mainland China's people aren't stupid (maybe some are ignorant, many afraid), and a few brave ones [nytimes.com] conjure up [nytimes.com] the balls [nytimes.com] to endure [nytimes.com] the inevitable beat-back [nytimes.com] that always comes when questioning authority [nytimes.com].
A better way to characterize the effect of PRC's viciously retrograde policies against their own people might be "repressed and pwned," given the deeply fucked-up nature of the authoritarian and communist government there.
While China's economic liberalization may leave more coin jingling in the average worker's pocket, all else remains the same. Makes me wonder if the West's political mollycoddling of PRC was ever intended to benefit their people, or if it was just to retain a cheap manufacturing source.
Absolutely spot-on. Let us hope they follow it through to total withdrawl and contribute some loss of face for PRC's communist party. Let's not forget the near-complete blind eye turned by Western governments and the lame-stream media during the Olympics in Beijing not so long ago.
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Interesting)
Since the average annual wage for much of China is still about $500 per year, I think the financial calculus for dealing with them might be a little more complicated that you suggest.
Remember, even though annual disposable income in the big cities is as high as $2000 per year on average, there are one whole hell of a lot of people in China who are still dirt poor and aren't going to be buying a lot of products seen advertised on Google.
It's going to be interesting to see how this shakes out. I suspect that the core values of the founders of Google haven't changed that much over the years, but their great success may have led them to believe that they are as likely to change a repressive society like China or Iran as those societies are to change Google.
It still remains to be seen if their egos are right or not. Chinese society with all its complicated stratification and variety has been around a good deal longer than Google, but I've seen big and varied societies make enormous changes in a very short time during my own lifetime.
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
Diplomacy 101 (Score:5, Interesting)
Reading some of the news coming out about hackers in China, I get the impression that there might be unofficial sanctioning or sponsorship by the government of some Chinese hacker groups.
It also strikes me as a little off that a company announces it 'might' pull out of a country. Usually, these decisions are made internally and press conferences are called to either announce or deny that something is going to happen. If you are a company like Google, you don't openly call the government for hacking and spying. I wonder if this is Google telling the government that it won't put up with their shit?
Re:Diplomacy 101 (Score:4, Funny)
"I'll see your extortion and raise you a blackmail."
"I'll see your blackmail and raise you illegal detention and torture."
"Fold. Can I get a fucking drink in this place or do I have to go to Taiwan for that too?"
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:4, Informative)
According to the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/13/world/asia/13beijing.html):
Google did not publicly link the Chinese government to the cyber attack, but people with knowledge of Google’s investigation said they had enough evidence to justify its actions.
So I think it's a matter of the Chinese government seeking to uncover the identities of human rights activists by actively attacking Google's and other people's corporate network.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, at least google hasn't jailed people for thought and information crimes yet. If you see google as a possible evil, they are most certainly the lesser so far.
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Funny)
Well, at least google hasn't jailed people for thought and information crimes yet.
Really? How do you think their vast "data centers" are powered? By electricity or some shit? How do you think a Google search works? A "computer" uses some fancy "algorithm" to query a "database"?
It's people. Google is made out of people. They're making our information out of people. Next thing they'll be breeding us like cattle for food. You've gotta tell them. You've gotta tell them!
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Interesting)
Forget reputations. The big question here is if there's money to be made in China at all.
Over the last 10 years, there has been a roaring trade between the west and China. Ordinarily, this would be a great thing, but so far trade has been completely one sided. The fact is, the west has very little that the Chinese actually want to buy, or cannot manufacture themselves. Individual companies have been making short term gains by relocating their businesses to China; but in the long term, Chinese competitors (generally state subsidised) quickly emerge and dominate the local market and then the export market. For short term gain, western companies essentially write their own death warrants.
Google has gone into China. It has gotten nowhere. It's not the only company to see this happen. This big market, a fifth or the worlds population, turns out not to actually be worth the effort in most cases. Not only do you have to put up with the nineteenth century nonsense perpetuated by the communist party, you have to accept the fact that local competitors can and will eat you alive, either with state assistance, ruthless exploitation of labour, or by flat out ignoring the IP rules you hold so dear. Tell me the Western company that is making money in China itself. Making the kind of money that's going to help pay the balance of trade deficit that has emerged from the amount of money Chinese exporters have made in the last 10 years. Name me one.
China isn't worth it. At least not now. Come back in 30 years when the country has some human rights, democratic government and respect for trade laws. Then you can do, what is commonly called, business. There'll probably be a lot more money in people's pockets by that time too. Right now the whole country is a shell game you can never win, no matter how much you think the rules have to be the same. There's no point talking about gaining first mover advantage in a country where people can't even change jobs without a bloody chit. Not for the vast majority of companies.
Maybe Google will finally come to realise this. People may think its signals their return to the light side of the force. Personally, I'm inclined to think Google simply has a most ironic stance towards the personal data to compiles on the world population, jealously guarding it from all comers. Either way, Google leaving China will end up being a net positive for the company, its users, and the balance of trade deficit. The Chinese might lose a few search results, but frankly, that's the bed they've made for themselves right now.
Re:Free trade of ideas, anyone? (Score:5, Interesting)
Either way, Google leaving China will end up being a net positive for the company, its users, and the balance of trade deficit.
There's more to it than that. It would set a precedent. It would be something that make CEOs and boards of other companies wonder if they should at least review their strategy in China, and hopefully follow suit.
It would also get a lot of news coverage. Google is very well-known, enough so that a story like that would likely be run by all major Western TV channels, newspapers etc. This would be some awesome propaganda.
Excellent idea (Score:4, Interesting)
Why wait?
I say pull out... (Score:5, Insightful)
Google has been skirting the edge of their "don't be evil" policy with China since the start. If you have to censor your search results, it's not worth the trouble.
Re:I say pull out... (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe it's finally struck them that getting into a market under the claim that somehow censored search results will set people free was completely absurd.
Re:I say pull out... (Score:5, Insightful)
Especially since they've determined the target of the attacks were the gmail accounts of human rights activists.
Doesn't it seem just a LITTLE odd that the Chinese government would want this information, Google knows someone wants this information, and the attack originated in China?
I don't blame them for threatening to pull out, its likely that whoever attacked Google was on some form of Chinese government payroll. Over or under the table.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I say pull out... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I say pull out... (Score:5, Funny)
This is like going to the snackbar at a movie theater and demanding that they sell steak and lobster otherwise they are censoring you and blocking your freedoms. The hacking is an unrelated issue, China has been hacking everyone for years.
They never sell steak at snack bars. It's not like you're asking for soda and they say they have none, you know there is soda out there but someone is telling the snack bar not to stock it. Steak and lobster? What search engine do you see your movies at?
What's the impact? (Score:4, Interesting)
I honestly want to know.
What would the impact of Google pulling out of China mean to citizens? How popular was Google, compared to Baidu, Bing, Yahoo, etc. in the Chinese web search space?
Re:What's the impact? (Score:5, Insightful)
Google controls ~25% of the search traffic in China. Not the monolith they are in Europe or the U.S. but enough that everyone in China would know the government was blocking Google. On the other hand they are currently running a major crackdown on internet porn and could potentially try to use that (and google's "refusal to help protect Chinese children from western vice) as an excuse.
Re:What's the impact? (Score:5, Insightful)
Is it? (Score:5, Interesting)
Google had a great reputation with its "Do no evil" motto. And then they went into China and they lost it.
What is worth more to google. A great reputation in the west and no business in China, or a sullied reputation in the west and lousy business in China that may be cut off any day when the government chances its mind? You seem to assume like many others that doing business in China is easy, just follow the rules and you make a profit. But that is not the case. You IP is an open target, the government can change the rules whenever it wants and the local competition is heavily entwined with the state.
That makes for a difficult operating environment. It is indeed a brave move by Google to go against the Wall Street mentality of "a penny today" but long term it might be the wisest move they ever make. At least they are sending a signal that there are limits. It seems that at the end of the crisis, something might be changing. Even the US seems to be considering to tax banks... unthinkable in the past. New firms are starting up that claim they will things different and now google being the first to question the Wall Street wisdom that doing business in China is worth everything.
And as for enormous. China only passed Germany this year in exports. The market really ain't all that large. Large parts of it are dirt poor and the rest works for pennies. India is equal in population size and a lot more open. You don't see everyone bending over backwards for India do you? Wall Street loves China, no meddling human rights to upset things, simple rules. But Wall Street has shown it doesn't know shit.
I am frankly surprised at reading this story. Either we soon will get an update that this guy was fired or Google is very serious about this. Because somewhere in China, someone just fainted. The Chinese government does NOT want google to just disappear because of its actions, the average Chinese person doesn't really believe that censorship affects him/her personally. It is just for troublemakers. When google goes (and with that youtube etc etc) it will be noticed far more clearly then some dissident being locked up.
Who knew, Google might actually life up to its motto "Do no evil". Wonder what other companies will do... If Google follows-up on this, MS apologists lost a major piece of ammunition.
Re:Is it? (Score:5, Informative)
When google goes (and with that youtube etc etc) it will be noticed far more clearly then some dissident being locked up.
I don't know that Google will be missed as much as you think it will be, and foreign websites disappearing from the Chinese internet is a regular enough occurrence that it hardly rates a mention anymore.
YouTube has been gone (blocked) for a year+ now. Same with Facebook, which was blocked just as it was achieving some popularity in China.The average Chinese person doesn't use Google, YouTube or Facebook. They use the local versions: Baidu, Youku and Kaixinwang.
That said, I would prefer to see Google stay in China, even with a little bit of censorship. The Chinese internet is already so disconnected from the internet that we know, but having a player like Google is at least a small bridge over the divide.
Re:What's the impact? (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually it could be large to China. Not so much in and of itself, but what it overall represents. China's policies risk creating a situation where there is the "China Internet" and the "Real Internet." That is going to be problematic for business. If China is all home grown, censorship based systems that are in use there and nowhere else, it'll make it a lot harder to do business in the world.
Also, it can cause loss of face and legitimacy for them. Remember that China is not like North Korea, their populace kept all at home, ignorant of the rest of the world. The Chinese travel a lot, they study and work in other countries. In the department I work for on campus we have tons of Chinese grad students. If it turns out that the Internet is totally different in China than the rest of the world, that China won't let you see most of what is out there, well then these people are going to start asking why.
When the censorship is more low key, more invisible, things like the Chinese Google just having different search results on things, it isn't the kind of thing many will notice. After all Google localizes results everywhere, that certain ones are omitted in China is harder to notice if you aren't looking for it. However if it is a situation where they discover that these services everyone else uses are available AT ALL in China, then they start to wonder why.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
So what will happen in practice? (Score:5, Interesting)
My guess: Google stops censoring itself, gaining credibility for its belatedly 'principled' stand against the Chinese government, while sending a message to China that hacking its servers is Not Polite. China predictably steps in to filter the search results using its own mechanisms, relieving Google of the burden. Google gets to keep its advertising revenue, while the users behind the Great Firewall get (at best) the same censorship as before. Now if Google really wants to make a point, with a genuine and serious risk of losing business, how about making google.cn an exclusively SSL site and seeing how fast China blocks it..?
Re:So what will happen in practice? (Score:5, Informative)
What? The URL string is not available over an SSL connection. Here's a transcript, including headers, of an HTTPS request.
AW#$GAWE$gae3gtraweRGEGaergaweRGTawerGTAWERGTW#trgse3ryg35g
You get the idea. No URI string available. All they could detect is the destination server.
Re:So what will happen in practice? (Score:5, Funny)
That looks like some interesting perl code you have there. What does it do?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:So what will happen in practice? (Score:5, Informative)
So, what the parent proposed is this... you have a router that pretends to be an HTTPS server between you and https://www.bank.com./ [www.bank.com] So, when you connect to the website, you're actually negotiating an SSL session with the router while the router negotiates another SSL session with www.bank.com.
This sounds all well and dandy.. except, how can the router in between convince your browser that it isn't really the bank's website?
So the parent's argument is... the organization who owns the router, controls the CA who signed www.bank.com's certificate too. However, even this would give you problems...
Add in the fact that you have plenty of people in China who have found ways to bypass the GFW, and that browsers seeing different fingerprints from the same website's certificates would give out red warning screens, your scheme is already not working well.
Next, it's about the CAs themselves. Every major OS and browser comes with a list of trusted CAs. Do you see many Chinese names there? No? And seeing Green Dam's PR disaster - if the Chinese government bothers to "coerce" foreign CAs to give them private keys, you can guess what the response is.
So, the reality is, even the Chinese government has no way of pulling out the already imperfect man-in-the-middle I described above. Yes, they can still give you a website with a different CA and probably with a self-signed cert, but again any sensible browser would jump up and down about it, which is definitely a strong motivator for anyone interested in privacy to somehow get foreign VPN access or simply just go to a Tor-like network.
Next common question... the textbook version of DH can be man-in-the-middled. While it is theoretically possible to MITM basic non-authenticated Diffie-Hellman without touching all the cert related stuff, it's not really practical since anonymous Diffie-Hellman is disabled by most web servers (e.g. the !ADH SSL cipher suite option in default Apache config) and I think most modern browsers wouldn't allow it anyway. What most real web servers do during SSL key exchange these days is either fixed DH or ephemeral DH, which aren't known to be susceptible to MITM unless the authentication in question isn't meaningful (e.g. self-signed certs, again, which is guaranteed to give you browser warnings)
Re:So what will happen in practice? (Score:4, Informative)
Not true. The secure connection is established before the HTTP request (containing the URL) is transmitted.
For added irony, I'll refer you to Google.cn [google.cn] for an explanation.
Re:So what will happen in practice? (Score:4, Interesting)
That's exactly what I was thinking. Most HTTP servers and related software treat GET and POST variables in exactly the same way unless explicitly told not to. I haven't tried a POST request from Google yet, but I'd be very surprised if they don't support it.
Besides, GET should still remain private, as the first thing that happens in an HTTPS connection is the SSL handshake. (BEFORE the URL string is sent) All the government would know is that someone was connecting to google.cn via HTTPS.
The government still controls the .cn TLD (Score:4, Informative)
The government still controls the .cn TLD, and they could take over the domain or remove it from the root zone at a whim.
Definitely Pull Out... (Score:5, Funny)
Google, FTW!!! (Score:3, Informative)
This is as close to "do no evil" as they have come in years. Way to grow some balls Google!
Re:Google, FTW!!! (Score:4, Insightful)
Jesus Christ. It's not growing balls unless they ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING. If they don't do anything, then it's called POSTURING (aka: S.S.D.D.)
Re:Google, FTW!!! (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.google.cn/search?hl=zh-CN&source=hp&q=tianamen+square+massacre [google.cn] currently gives 1,350,000 results. If it's also doing that on the other side of the great firewall of China, then they have already done something BIG.
Google Full of Crap (Score:4, Insightful)
We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all.
Oh so now they are going to discuss censorship with the Chinese. And they didn't decide to do this before? And it never occurred to them that the intelligence agencies of foreign governments would spy on them?
This all smells of some PR stunt. After investing billions in China and bending over violently for commie murderers, they still got their asses handed to them by Baidu. This is their way of pulling out of a losing market while looking like good guys.
Re:Google Full of Crap (Score:4, Interesting)
Call it PR, or negotiation, or leverage. Fundamentally, it is the same thing at the scale Google is talking about.
Google wants something, and thinks that now is the time to discuss it. I would guess there is more going on than just this hackery. It may well be that what they want is to close down, but I can't imagine, even if they do, that that's the whole of it - they don't seem the sort of company to simply give up on such a huge market in their core markets simply because Baidu out-"competed" them (for values of competition that do include government-level lobbying).
Re:Google Full of Crap (Score:5, Insightful)
...within the law, if at all. We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down Google.cn, and potentially our offices in China.
It could be a PR stunt, but my feeling is that if they were just going to "discuss" it with the chinese they would have kept it behind closed doors. This sounds more like an ultimatum made publicly, and if you say something like that publicly you have to follow through or risk looking like a liar and a hypocrite. Could there be an ulterior motive? Sure. This move will make them very popular outside of China. People like to be on the side of "good" and if a company is seen as sticking up for the oppressed, I can see a lot of people buying their services and products in order to show their support and gratitude.
Re:Google Full of Crap (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't think it's fair to say they were beaten by Baidu.
And the lesson is... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Yes. In hindsight, this is all very clear. However, there is a benefit to giving the benefit of the doubt early on: you are positively certain that you did what could be done, and the only option left is stop negotiating amicably. Google now can point to past behavior and say: You're not holding up your end of the bargain. We did. Until we see some change from you, we will ignore your requests. This is a fairly significant position change in negotiations, as you're basically saying that the other party lost
Wow!! Very surprising! (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't know how much of my comment history is available at present, but it doesn't seem that long ago that I was commenting that Google is not to be trusted because they are a corporation and they are all about advertising revenue. The fact that they have capitulated to China in the past was reaffirming to my perspective.
But if this story plays out and Google pulls out of China based on the Chinese government's persecution of descenters, opposition and critics, then I have to say that Goggle will actually start changing my mind about them after all. And I have to say, just like many others, changing my mind about something is not particularly easy to do -- but if they do this, I will be PLEASANTLY surprised.
In addition to that, any U.S. company that fails to take a similar approach to dealing with China is simply without balls by comparison.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
the issue has been discussed here before: (Score:5, Insightful)
does a US company do business with regimes with poor human rights records?
specifically, does an internet company help such a government with restrictions on freedoms?
what if the company's motto is "don't be evil"?
score one for human rights
and score one for google's integrity
today is a good day
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
score one for human rights
and score one for google's integrity
today is a good day
No kidding. I'll be very interested to see what Yahoo does, especially given their own cooperation [slashdot.org] with China's secret police.
Re:the issue has been discussed here before: (Score:4, Insightful)
does a US company do business with regimes with poor human rights records?
If it is to the company's benefit.
does an internet company help such a government with restrictions on freedoms?
If it is to the company's benefit.
what if the company's motto is "don't be evil"?
Marketing slogans seldom translate to real world actions.
Freedom (Score:5, Insightful)
Clarence Darrow
careful (Score:3, Insightful)
all the moral relativists will be saying you can't possibly be trying to extend american style rights and freedoms to china. that you have no right to do that and (my favorite part): trying to extend liberties in countries outside the usa is imperialism (!?)
<sarcasm>
you westerners can't possibly judge china because it has a complex history and culture you will never fully understand. you should be sensitive to interesting cultural differences that makes the world an exciting place, like: the chinese e
culture is an addendum to humanity (Score:5, Insightful)
it does not override, modify, or negate basic human rights
if there is in fact as aspect of culture, any culture, western, indian, russian, whatever, that is an aborgation of human rights, then it is up to you, if you consider yourself someone with a sense of principles, to oppose it
i'm not saying that the chinese should eat mcdonalds, i'm saying- hell, the CHINESE are saying (as in, the actual chinese, not their autocrats) that the chinese deserve HUMAN RIGHTS
there's a reason its called HUMAN rights, and not american rights or western rights
you are truly one deluded fool if cultural differences excuses gross violations of basic human dignity
what is your take on clitorectomies? is that west african tradition something to be respected, or fought? if you fight it, are you simply a cultural imperialist, an ethnocentric westerner?
do you believe that if you cross the straights of bosporus or the straights of gibraltar or the rio grande and *snap*, magic! human beings are fundamentally different and gross violations of human rights should be respected as quaint local custom?
i am not an american. i am a human being. it is in fact, those who think of themselves as american first, and a human second, or a brazilian first, and a human second, or a muslim first, and a human second, or whatever, that is the source of all the suffering in this world. what random arbitrary tribal boundary you are born within is a far, far secondary consideration to your allegiance to your HUMANITY. or, at least it should be. too many in this world have that backwards, and they are the source of our problems
Translation from marketspeak (Score:5, Insightful)
Translation: "We were cool with doing business with you, even effacing our own corporate values, because your country is a lucrative market. But it wasn't enough for us to be cooperative -- you got in our servers and messed with our stuff. And you know what -- that'll cost us more in our reputation and business costs than you're worth, so goodbye."
Re:Translation from marketspeak (Score:5, Funny)
That sentence still has 40% marketease in it.
Here's the Texas-Bubba version:
"We done come over there with our 'quipment and y'alls fucked it up royally and y'all are goin' through allour files. Jesus H. Christ y'all are so batshit I can't see straight. I ain't made dollar to donuts in this place. I'm gonna call Aunt Ethel to see if we can't move back in with the in-laws over in Taiwan."
If it wasn't coming from Googleblog... (Score:4, Insightful)
I want access to my logs (Score:3, Insightful)
I want to be able to know which addresses have connected to my account, or, more importantly, who *tried* to access it. The information is there. Why not show it? It would allow one to immediately find out someone's trying to break in.
Re:I want access to my logs (Score:5, Informative)
The Cartman Maneuver (Score:4, Funny)
sounds like a plan (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm ready to stop buying Chinese, if possible. I've already stopped buying products manufactured in China if they are for my daughter. Anyone want to start on-shore manufacturing? Seems like German toys and French health products are the only alternative.
Re:sounds like a plan (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm ready to stop buying Chinese, if possible.
It's not, unless you want to become Amish, and maybe not even then. You'll certainly not be buying any electronics without Chinese-made components.
In any case, boycotts and embargoes mainly harm the little guy who, in a non-democratic society, doesn't get any say in the way things are done. The average Chinese will be thinking about eating his in-laws before any member of the Politburo goes without caviar.
What we should be doing is tying our import tariffs to improvements in Chinese human rights and progress towards democracy instead of blithely rubber-stamping their most favored nation status and pretending that capitalism automatically produces democracy -- which idea always was a load of shit, considering that capitalism was pioneered by monarchies. Democracy tends to produce capitalism, true, but the reverse is not even remotely the case.
Google can simply move (Score:4, Interesting)
All of it's Chinese offices to Taiwan. That will really piss off China. And Taiwan is *much* friendlier than China.
Guess what Baidu has already censored? (Score:5, Interesting)
Step #1: Visit www.baidu.com.
Step #2: Search for Google or blogspot.com. Note that both work.
Step #3: Now search for google.blogspot.com.
Step #4: Enjoy your Baidu lockout. You should be able to search again in 5-10 minutes, I haven't timed the duration exactly.
Re:Guess what Baidu has already censored? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Guess what Baidu has already censored? (Score:4, Informative)
Same for googleblog.blogspot.com
Probable reason: ``At the time we made clear that "we will carefully monitor conditions in China, including new laws and other restrictions on our services. If we determine that we are unable to achieve the objectives outlined we will not hesitate to reconsider our approach to China.",,
Arriving at the obvious can be hard (Score:4, Insightful)
It is to Google's credit that they finally figured out the truth about China.
Of course, even truthier is the fact that China wants them gone anyhow, since they'd prefer to build their own little world inside their own little internet.
Double standards ? (Score:4, Informative)
Google appears to be a proud protector of the gmail accounts of China's Human Rights activists, when it says that "Only two Gmail accounts appear to have been accessed, and that activity was limited to account information (such as the date the account was created) and subject line, rather than the content of emails themselves.".
Is this the same Google which Hands over IP addresses of activists to Indian Police [techgoss.com] ?
What about Google Sets Censorship Precedent In India [slashdot.org] ?
Mumbai Cyber Sleuths are a law unto themselves, ordering Americans around: Mumbai Police Order American to delete Cartoon [chillingeffects.org]
Why does Google co-operate so tamely with Mumbai Cyber police ? Why did Google hand over IPs in 2007 [nartv.org] entangling an innocent man in the Police web ?
And yet talk of Human Rights in China ? Don't the Indians have Human Rights too ?
I'm pretty sure it was an inside job ... (Score:4, Interesting)
It was surely an inside job. Google needs employees in China to manage the operations there. Even if you keep them under control, or if you send trusted employees from overseas, it's a huge hazard. The government in China has a really tight control of the population, and everyone is afraid of the government. I'm pretty sure it was easy for an insider to leak information, and I'm also pretty sure that the government isn't just buying the "yes, we will comply with your filter" response from Google, and is not only constantly monitoring search results, but also getting inside information about how things are being handled.
If you don't make a huge profit out of China, the rest of the world complains about the censorship you agreed to apply at search results, and you are risking trade secrets and being harassed, then the Chinese market isn't so interesting anymore.
If I were in Google's situation, I would gladly let those 300 millions a year go, and just leave China.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Doesn't China make like almost all the computer parts? We are happy enough to get hardware from them. Hell, they make most everything we use nowadays. Are you ready to give all that up?
Re:Wait, "Evil"? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm certainly an advocate of freedom of speech, but branding China as "evil" is some serious overstatement. It's a country that has historically struggled with providing basic necessities and a reasonable standard of living to its ridiculously huge number of people.
It shouldn't be a surprise that China, preoccupied more with material matters than information, has lagged in catching on to the importance of intellectual property and freedom of speech.
That's a very weird way to put it. One doesn't need to "preoccupy" oneself with freedom of speech; freedom of speech is what you have in the absence of specific regulation, "by default"!
Instead, China specifically "preoccupied" itself with censorship, despite struggling with providing basic necessities etc.
And, yes, that is evil (as in, deliberately malicious).
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The subject lines of a few emails may very well be enough proof to result in certain human rights activists disappearance. Consider:
Fw: Re: increasin