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Comments: 775 +-   Secret Copyright Treaty Leaks. It's Bad. Very Bad. on Wednesday November 04, @09:31AM

Posted by CmdrTaco on Wednesday November 04, @09:31AM
from the you-gotta-be-kidding-me dept.
censorship
Jamie found a Boing Boing story that will probably get your blood to at least a simmer. It says "The internet chapter of the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement, a secret copyright treaty whose text Obama's administration refused to disclose due to 'national security' concerns, has leaked. It's bad." You can read the original leaked document or the summary. If passed, the internet will never be the same. Thank goodness it's hidden from public scrutiny for National Security.
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  • Jamie found a Boing Boing story that will probably get your blood to at least a simmer.

    Well maybe Jamie should read yesterday's Slashdot [slashdot.org].

    I would just like to point out that everyone is getting their information from a single point: Michael Geist's blog. Granted, he's rarely wrong but blogs are blogs. So where is this "leaked document" that the summary alludes to? Every source I find online points back to Geist. Even the articles Geist cites at the bottom of his blog point back to him. Even Wikipedia points back to him [wikipedia.org]. I'm not saying that he's wrong nor am I trying to deflate the severity of this but Geist is even relying on other sources:

    Sources say that the draft text, modeled on the U.S.-South Korea free trade agreement, focuses on following five issues...

    Then following that even he says:

    If accurate ...

    Doesn't leave me a whole lot of confidence that we're getting all the unadulterated facts here. I would seek information better than third or fourth hand accounts of something before I went around screaming about the sky falling (trust me, I speak from experience [slashdot.org] of being fooled by a single blog post).

    Secret Copyright Treaty Leaks. It's Bad. Very Bad.

    So where is the leaked document so that I may judge for myself?

    • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 04, @09:36AM (#29977882)

      The real question here should be where's the original document and why is the Administration hiding behind 'National security' to avoid releasing it. I've had enough of that over the previous 8 years. Change!

        • by commodore64_love (1445365) on Wednesday November 04, @11:21AM (#29979756)

          Well I for one am extremely happy with the actions of Clinton, Bush, and Obama.

          Their ever-increasingly central control via government of private citizens' lives, homes, and communications will make it MUCH easier for me. I and my brownshirts will be able to sweep-in to the Congress, declare emergency powers, turn-off the communication networks, and consolidate power with ease. Thank you Bill, George and Barak.

          Signed,
          Napoleon the X

          • by sam_handelman (519767) <skh2003@columbia. e d u> on Wednesday November 04, @10:51AM (#29979160) Homepage Journal

            No, this is the same people / same industry lobbyists / same secretive, greed-crazed financial companies who control our health insurance *already*.

              If we had a system of publically accountable, transparent entities running health insurance (as we do with health *care*, thank you very much the hospitals are mostly fine,) then it would be crazy to propose a federal takeover. But the groups presently running the insurance scam in this country are the same financial institutions responsible for all the worst excesses of the commerce department.

            • by FiloEleven (602040) on Wednesday November 04, @12:27PM (#29981050)

              Interesting that you're voted Offtopic while the post that went offtopic was your parent. You are spreading misinformation, but it ought to be corrected instead of simply modded down.

              The NPR program This American Life recently had two episodes (391 and 392, found here [thisamericanlife.org]) on the health care system, and the problems with it are just not as simple as the Democrats or the Republicans are making them out to be.

              For one thing, the hospitals are most certainly *not* fine. A big part of the insurance problem is that companies who serve a large area population use that influence to negotiate really low service rates with hospitals in their area. The hospitals want that customer base, so rather than standing firm at a reasonably profitable price, they lower prices for the big insurance company and jack up prices for the same procedures when dealing with smaller companies. The example given in the show was of one hospital in CA which charged one company $1600 for a procedure, and charged another $11,000.

              There's a lot more where that came from in the shows. I highly recommend them to everyone who wants to open his mouth to talk about health care. Everyone knows it's broken, but too many people are looking solely at the broken parts their party claims will fix the whole thing.

    • by Spad (470073) <slashdotNO@SPAMspad.co.uk> on Wednesday November 04, @09:38AM (#29977906) Homepage

      The whole point is that there are precious few details about any of ACTA because nobody outside of the governments involved, their lawyers and a few high-paying lobby groups have been allowed to see any of its contents.

      *Everything* about it is hearsay until either someone succeeds in getting an FOI request honoured or the thing gets ratified and it's too late to do anything about it.

      • by vvaduva (859950) on Wednesday November 04, @10:04AM (#29978328)

        But Obama was to have the most open government in the history of humanity. WTF happened??

        • by Duradin (1261418) on Wednesday November 04, @10:36AM (#29978874)

          Obama is a politician. This is what professional politicians do.

          I doubt we'll ever see another Cincinnatus.

          As Douglas Adams wisely told us, no one who wants to be president should ever be allowed to become the president.

          • by Kz (4332) on Wednesday November 04, @12:23PM (#29980974) Homepage

            As Douglas Adams wisely told us, no one who wants to be president should ever be allowed to become the president.

            That was actually Plato, in "The Republic" (written almost 2,400 years ago!).

            • by Duradin (1261418) on Wednesday November 04, @01:12PM (#29981954)

              An "Honest" professional politician can't exist.

              If they are honest, they won't be a professional politician.
              If they are professional, they won't be a honest politician.

              Honesty means they are either admitting they are the pawns of their paymasters, which means the public won't be voting for them (even though it's a given for politicians, they just aren't supposed to be open about it), or they are admitting they won't be the pawns of lobbyists, which means they won't have enough money to win against the guy that does dance to the lobbyists' tune.

              Honest politicians tend to be one shots. If they get in, they soon find they can't get anything done since the regular politicians don't want the upstart rocking the boat and either make him completely ineffectual so he won't be re-elected or they turn him to their style of politics so he's not a problem anymore.

              And those lizards, they've come up with quite the scheme to be sure one of them always gets elected...

      • by Jurily (900488) <jurily@@@gmail...com> on Wednesday November 04, @10:12AM (#29978438)

        The real question is: do we let this sort of secrecy become a precedent? If this thing passes, no matter what it actually says, it will be used to justify the next attempt.

        Informed public is the cornerstone to maintaining democracy, don't let it slip away. (By public I don't mean the redneck sitting in front of the TV drinking beer, but the experts who can at least comment on the proposal and its effects before it's too late.)

      • by jedidiah (1196) on Wednesday November 04, @10:18AM (#29978532) Homepage

        Government + a few high paid lobby groups?

        Really. ANYONE should be able to put 2 and 2 together here.

        This stuff should be a surprise to NO ONE.

        Really, what did you think they were doing? Of course this is why they were hiding from public view.

        The "national security" consideration is that there are some countries (France) that still riot in the streets over this sort of stuff.

      • by Smallpond (221300) on Wednesday November 04, @10:49AM (#29979122) Homepage Journal

        The whole point is that there are precious few details about any of ACTA because nobody outside of the governments involved, their lawyers and a few high-paying lobby groups have been allowed to see any of its contents.

        *Everything* about it is hearsay until either someone succeeds in getting an FOI request honoured or the thing gets ratified and it's too late to do anything about it.

        There is a section in the agreement allowing the RIAA or MPAA to confiscate all of your possessions if they find a single infringing item on any PC you own. If you don't believe me, just ask the government to show it to you and prove me wrong. Tell all your friends.

        • by schon (31600) on Wednesday November 04, @12:05PM (#29980620) Homepage

          There is a section in the agreement allowing the RIAA or MPAA to confiscate all of your possessions if they find a single infringing item on any PC you own.

          No, that's not true.

          The section you mentioned allows them to confiscate all your possessions if they suspect there might have been a single infringing item on any electronic device you own.

    • by odin84gk (1162545) on Wednesday November 04, @09:45AM (#29978022)

      Well, if all else fails, we can make this thing sound so horrible that any politician that touches it would be publicly shamed. They can't prove us wrong unless they publicize the details of the treaty... ...

      I read part of the treaty, and the "Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement" will allow American children extradited to Japan if they watch an animated Japanese video!

      • by oldspewey (1303305) on Wednesday November 04, @10:15AM (#29978482)

        I'd say 95% of the population can't be made to listen to a 90-second dinner party discussion of ACTA, IP laws, and internet freedom. How do you expect to whip significant numbers of people into an indignant frenzy?

        The government(s) know they have a yawner on their hands here, and they can operate behind a cloak of indifference. Don't make the mistake of assuming prevailing opinion on a technology discussion board mirrors prevailing opinion in the population at large.

      • by harl (84412) on Wednesday November 04, @01:21PM (#29982144)

        That there is no due process. If you neighbor is angry at you they can make a claim and have your internet shut off.

        What are the provisions for false claims? I suspect much closer to none than some.

        Call the newspapers. Call the TV stations. Lay out exactly how trivial it will be to have their internet shutoff. The ISPs aren't going to follow up or verify these letters. They'll pull the switch, grab the immunity, and let you deal with your problem at that point.

    • by Absolut187 (816431) on Wednesday November 04, @09:56AM (#29978184) Homepage

      Even if it is all true, it is just a treaty.

      Remember those "3 branches of government"?

      The president can sign all the treaties he wants, but he can't force Congress to enact legislation to enforce it all.

      We've been "signatories" to lots of IP treaties for decades while Congress drug its feet on actually coming into compliance with the treaty.

      So don't worry, the internet will not be destroyed by a treaty.

    • by whatajoke (1625715) on Wednesday November 04, @10:06AM (#29978348)

      So where is this "leaked document" that the summary alludes to?

      To quote from Geist's blog:

      selected groups granted access under strict non-disclosure agreements and other countries (including Canada) given physical, watermarked copies designed to guard against leaks.

      I hope that answers your question. Unless you want to out the person leaking this document, he can't ever publish a photocopy of it as it will be traced back to him. And if you think such deception is beyond our autocrats, read up on this [wikipedia.org] and this [wikipedia.org]

  • Copyright (Score:4, Funny)

    by bluefoxlucid (723572) on Wednesday November 04, @09:32AM (#29977822) Journal
    Who owns the copyright on this document?
  • So what's new? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by elrous0 (869638) * on Wednesday November 04, @09:34AM (#29977844)

    I still don't know why everyone acts so surprised that this administration has carried on with the exact same Intellectual property and "national security" policies of the previous one. Democrats are just as much in the pockets of Hollywood as conservatives are in the pockets of big business (meaning BOTH support oppressive IP legislation). And Obama loves his presidential power just as much as Cheney did. So why anyone ever expected things to somehow be different with this administration, I don't understand. Cheney may not have been right about many things, but he was pretty much dead on when he predicted that Obama would keep most of Bush's national security policies in place (the same ones he criticized during the campaign) once he got a taste of that power for himself.

    It also doesn't surprise me that they're using a treaty to quietly push this crap through. They did the exact same thing with the DMCA. A lot of people don't realize that the DMCA was just the formal ratification of a WIPO treaty [wikipedia.org] that had been debated and agreed to in secret. The powers that be know this shit would never stand the light of day with the electorate, so they quietly push it through with the kind of obscure international treaties that they know CNN, NBC, et. al. are never going to cover. By the time it actually makes it into Congress, it's already a fait accompli. The mainstream media only notices it when someone's already being prosecuted for violating it.

    • Re:So what's new? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Cornelius the Great (555189) on Wednesday November 04, @10:04AM (#29978312)

      The mainstream media only notices it when someone's already being prosecuted for violating it.

      I agreed completely until this statement. Mainstream media isn't that oblivious- they simply don't have YOUR best interests at heart.

      I'm sure most news networks themselves do notice it, but their parent companies are the very entities lobbying/pushing for more legislation. CNN = Time Warner, NBC = Vivendi Universal, FoxNews = News Corp, ABC = Disney, etc... These news companies (either through affiliates or parent corps) own most of our music, movies, TV shows, and other media, so it's only natural for them to protect their interests by trying to distract us from the draconian laws they're currently pushing through the governments of the world.

      Sadly, it seems that blogs and independent news are our only hope.

    • Re:So what's new? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by onefriedrice (1171917) on Wednesday November 04, @10:15AM (#29978472)
      It's a popular and wrong sentiment that Republicans are connected with "big business" and Democrats are connected with Hollywood. Clearly both parties are in bed with big business (see Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Barack Obama). Democrats just have the advantage of support from prominent figures in Hollywood and the old media, but that doesn't at all means that they somehow have no inclination to cater to big business any less than do Republicans.
        • Re:So what's new? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Gilmoure (18428) <gilmoure@nospam.gmail.com> on Wednesday November 04, @10:59AM (#29979332) Homepage Journal

          Yes! Bob Lassiter (radio commentator in 80's-90's) went on and on about how all the regular cultural divisive stuff (gun, abortion, etc) was just used to keep the electorate distracted while the rich consolidated their kleptocratic hold on the world. The rich (the real rich, that you don't really hear about) don't care what y'all think about such things, as long as the little folks keep toiling away producing money for them.

          There's no left-right axis to anything. That's just an artificial gauge set up in the French revolution as a way of targeting folks for 'wealth transfer'.

  • by kilfarsnar (561956) on Wednesday November 04, @10:00AM (#29978252)
    Whenever you hear that something is being withheld or denied for "National Security Interests", you can assume you are being screwed. Pretty much without regard to context. This was true in United States v. Reynolds, and it's true today.
  • Dreadful. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Crookdotter (1297179) on Wednesday November 04, @10:00AM (#29978256)
    This isn't the end of the internet when passed. But it may be the end of the open wild west attitude on the net. I hope it doesn't come to pass where everyone is afraid of uploading videos because they may have a coca cola logo in it and whatnot. What it won't do is stop piracy. It will move to darkets, or people posting massive gb thumb drives around. A bit of a backwards step but pirates will find a way. Hell, it might even increase it as you'd be generating a community spirit for pirates. All this fuss over Lily Allen CD's isn't worth it. Musicians should move to live performances to make money and accept that they shouldn't be millionaires for 1 album. They should work for a living like the rest of us. DVD's should be released much later after a film's release, and so move people to get back into the cinema. Live performance is where you make the money. Backup and copies should be let go for free (ish).
  • by Interoperable (1651953) on Wednesday November 04, @10:09AM (#29978400)

    for once.

    From TFA: "That ISPs have to proactively police copyright on user-contributed material." ISPs will be fighting this one pretty hard. There's no way they want to invest their resources to trying to patrol the internet. It's not their job, it's likely illegal and it's expensive.

    I do, in fact, think that copyright holders have every right to defend their legal rights but they absolutely must not step on the rights of others in so doing. Take-downs without due process, ISPs acting as police and blanket anti-DRM-violation rules are all measures that stomp on the rights and freedoms of the public. This treaty will infuriate everyone other than the content producers and I think will spark some lobbying from groups that haven't previously been seen on the side of openness.

    The general public (that means a broader public than /.) must become aware of the issues here. Most people simply aren't concerned with IP law even if it should concern them. That said, a threat to YouTube or Facebook or Twitter will spark a response. Here's what I propose: start a group that issues indiscriminate take-down notices of all sorts of media. If there is no punishment for frivolous DMCA notices then there's no risk. Start pissing people off, the service providers that have to deal with the requests and the content producers. Piss people off until legislation to prevent such action comes in, then we've own.

  • by hol (89786) on Wednesday November 04, @10:31AM (#29978788) Homepage Journal

    This sounds tongue-in-cheek, but is really a serious question. On one hand, you have the notion of ignorance is no excuse although there are precedents now stating if you're famous, that's okay. There are precedents for secret treatises for national security, like the withdrawal of missiles from Turkey at the end of the Cuban Missile Crisis. But how would the mechanics of enforcement work?

    Will the FBI kick in your door, shoot your dog, and haul you off for breaking a secret law?

    Would they need a secret warrant?

    If you ever got your day in court, would that court be secret too, to protect that law?

    ----

    Now for Canada: A judge last year tossed out a RIAA style copyright suit because the defendant had made CDs. As everyone knows, Canada has a special tax on blank media to reimburse the copyright holders for piracy that may or may not happen. Kind of like paying a partial speeding ticket before you get into your car each day. Since this implies guilt, the defendant was deemed to have been punished already, and was so exempt from being convicted again.

    How would the secret treaty work in Canada? Change the laws secretly?

  • by benjfowler (239527) on Wednesday November 04, @10:47AM (#29979082)

    I'll wager that the lobbying industry working for Big Content are filled with the same dishonest, shady and corrupt characters that shilled for Big Tobacco decades ago when they tried to deny links between smoking and lung cancer for purely selfish business reasons; or the corrupt rightwing shills who effectively conned the US government in waging wars and terrorism against Latin American countries to "protect US interests" (e.g. United Fruit). The same morally bankrupt individuals who staff lobbying companies and populate rightwing think tanks that are blitzing the world with climate denialism.

    Perhaps it's time for society to start asking who these people are, who they're working for and what they're getting paid. A public open database of paid lobbyists and shills might be useful. Perhaps these weasels might be less keen on trashing our liberties for profit if they know that light is being shone on their corrupt activities.

    Chances are, there will be only several dozen key individuals, who if pressured enough, and "encouraged" to find a more legitimate and honest lines of work, would make a big difference in fighting the onward march of vested interests in eroding our rights for profit.

  • What Do We Know? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Bob9113 (14996) on Wednesday November 04, @10:50AM (#29979144) Homepage

    A lot of what we have seen so far on this is second hand, conjecture, etc. The "leaked document" in this case doesn't seem to exist -- it looks like Michael Geist's blog entry is what is being referenced. I think it is reasonable to suppose that the blog entry may be accurate, but we don't really know that it is.

    So what do we know? What conclusions can we draw from the information we have?

    1. It is called the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement. The word "counterfeiting" in there seems like an important data point.
    2. It has been quashed by citing national security. National security has certainly become an extraordinarily loose standard, but it still means something.
    3. Lots of copyright bigwigs have signed the NDA.
    4. Three Google representatives have signed the NDA. (not sure what that contributes to this post, but I think it is worth noting)
    5. The Obama administration has appointed a number of high ranking RIAA lawyers to the DoJ. I think that they are prohibited from being involved in official court duties related to copyright issues for two years from leaving the industry.

    Item 5 leads me to wonder what those lawyers would be up to if they can't participate in actual proceedings. It seems reasonable to hypothesize that they might be working on ACTA, and combined with item 3 above makes me tend to think that the conjecture that ACTA is related to copyright is true. Yet its title mentions "counterfeiting."

    For years the government has referred to selling fake packaged copies of Windows 95 as counterfeit, which seems fair enough. They are an attempt to pass something off as the genuine article, to deceive the recipient into believing it is the real thing. This is a particularly dangerous thing with money, where the term "counterfeit" is most commonly used, because it devalues the currency. It is also a problem with things like software, in part because the person buying it cannot be confident that they are getting the real product.

    In short, the reason "counterfeit" is worse than mere copyright infringement is because its misrepresentation as the genuine article has extra costs to society. It is on this basis that investigation and punishment of counterfeit products is a more serious issue than of copyright infringement alone.

    So, that makes me wonder: Is the ACTA about what has traditionally been defined as counterfeit, or might it be about redefining all copyright infringement as counterfeiting? If so, it might make the national security issue make sense; counterfeiting is somewhat reasonably considered a national security issue. So if copyright infringement is redefined to be counterfeiting, then all copyright infringement would become, by a wave of a magic wand, a national security issue and would activate sections of the law created to deal with the more serious problem of traditional counterfeiting.

    Heck, if you were sufficiently twisted, you could even think that because this will classify a whole new swath of people as counterfeiters, and because counterfeiting is a national security issue, that disclosing the reclassification of copyright infringement would "tip our hand" to the people who are soon to be defined as counterfeiters. And we wouldn't want to disrupt these enemies of the state before we get a chance to classify their actions as hostile to the state.

    • by TheRaven64 (641858) on Wednesday November 04, @09:54AM (#29978160) Homepage Journal
      If this looks like it should pass then we should push for uniformity in the laws. Make telephone companies liable for anything illegal done using their lines and the post office liable for anything it carries and all manufacturers responsible for how their product is used. Send someone a letter bomb? The post office becomes an accessory to murder. Sing happy birthday into a telephone? The phone company is liable for copyright infringement. Kill someone with a gun or a kitchen knife? Murder charges for the gun or kitchen equipment makers too.
    • by Cyberax (705495) on Wednesday November 04, @10:04AM (#29978316)

      "I'm agreeing with most of the intent, and certainly all of the purpose. Supporting copyright is far more importantto me than supporting fair-use, and I'd certainly sacrifice the latter entirely in order to improve the former."

      Sorry. You are a minority. A corporate drone without creativity and/or life. Please, move along. Don't let the door hit you.

      And yes, I'm a corporate owner with intellectual property to protect. No, I do not support neither software patents (even though I hold some), nor this treaty. My software is sold as a service and as a product, I do lose some sales due to pirates (not much, really). But I would rather lose more sales than lose more freedoms.

    • by PhreakOfTime (588141) on Wednesday November 04, @10:21AM (#29978586) Homepage

      Yes, there are plenty of people who have filed to run their business as a corporation. You arent a 'corporate owner', that phrase drips with sanctimonious self-importance. I certainly hope you hire a lawyer very quickly to handle your copyright, as you obviously have zero idea what copryright law actually is.

      When 'your friends' create a mix from someone elses music, or use video clips for school work, they are NOT violating copyright. If your friends took someone elses creation, did nothing, and then made a million copies of it to sell for profit, THEN they are violating copyright.

      Seriously, get a lawyer. If you proceed in your misinformed thoughts you are going to find yourself on the receiving end of whats called a 'declaratory judgment' from someone who your all-encompassing ego sent a threat of copyright litigation.

      How do I know this? Well some self-important ass clown tried to send me a cease and desist letter claiming copyright infringement [demystify.info]. So instead of backing down, I hit back harder and filed for a declaratory judgment against them. They obviously lost, as their understanding of copyright is about as accurate as yours. When you dont have any idea what the law is, you better not be making legal threats against people, or spending your time looking for people who you suspect of violating something based on your own inaccurate understanding of the subject.

      If you ever crossed paths with me with that BS in public, I would hang you out to dry in the court system so fast, you wouldn't know what hit you.

    • Re:OH NOES (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 04, @10:09AM (#29978394)

      I didn't think they'd be any different. I just knew the alternative was even worse.

      The only shocker to me is that it's gotten to the point where I can't hate politicians and large multinational corporations enough. Like there's not enough vitriolic words and energy contained within the human brains and body to express adequately what monumental bastards they are. They're fucking blights on society. They're massive drag on the intellectual and economic progress of a country. They are the arch-enemy of freedom and free expression. They are absolutely opposed to anything that advances the state of the average man that doesn't grant a pile of money to the elite in the process.

      Fuck these people and institutions. To quote Joe Pesci in Casino: "Don't fuck me in the ass and tell me it's a blowjob!"

    • by Maximum Prophet (716608) on Wednesday November 04, @10:45AM (#29979050)
      The actual treaty (or law) won't be secret, just the debate leading up to it. They'll try to keep it secret for as long as possible, then slip the ratification into another bill that no politician can vote against. ("Think of the Children" type bills)
Sometimes I worry about being a success in a mediocre world. -- Lily Tomlin