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Comments: 104 +-   Canadian Copyright Lobby Fights Anti-Spyware Legislation on Friday October 16, @11:09PM

Posted by Soulskill on Friday October 16, @11:09PM
from the stop-being-jerks dept.
privacy
spam
An anonymous reader writes "New Canadian anti-spam and anti-spyware legislation is scheduled for a key vote on Monday. Michael Geist reports that the copyright lobby has been pushing to remove parts of the bill that would take away exceptions which currently allow spyware to be installed without authorization. 'The copyright lobby is deeply concerned that this change will block attempts to track possible infringement through electronic means.' There have also been proposals to extend the exemptions granted to telecom providers to include the installation of programs without the user's express consent, which Geist says will 'leave the door open to private, surreptitious surveillance.'"
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  • Let me guess... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) on Friday October 16, @11:14PM (#29775583) Journal
    Either overtly, or in practice, this demand for private surveillance powers would cover them putting spyware on my machine; but not my putting spyware on their machines....
    • Re:Let me guess... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by polle404 (727386) on Friday October 16, @11:23PM (#29775605)

      and next term, they'll have it amended with a nifty little clause, so you're not allowed to uninstall it, either, i'd wager.
      scary stuff...
      and I thought Canadians were the levelheaded ones of that particular continent? ;-)

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        Wonder how it'll fair against the privacy act, considering it would fly afoul of the retention of data w/o consent.

          • You "consented" when you broke the shrinkwrap on the CD or installed iTunes; ever read that EULA?

            ELUA's are not considered "binding" contracts, they're considered a one way agreement with extra consumer protection in various parts of Canada.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        We were, mostly levelheaded until the right-wing nuts managed a takeover of the center-right - sound familiar?
        Then the centrist and center-left basically fell apart and, shockingly, the only thing preventing the minority government
        from gaining a majority, which would really screw anyone who gives a damn about basic freedoms, global warming,
        equal rights and transparency in government are the Quebec sovereignists.

        Scary times indeed.

        • While I agree with your post, I think it should be noted that there's alot of people who vote for the Bloc without being sovereignists. The sole purpose of this party is to defend Quebec at the federal level, which unfortunately seems like a much, much better deal than the two other "big" party.
          • Most of the people in this country don't distinguish between the Bloc Quebecois, which is, as you say, a party whose sole purpose is to defend Quebec's interest at the federal level, and the Parti Quebecois, to which the separatists belong. While it's true that many separatists belong to the Bloc, it's not in their party constitution or published ideals to pursue sovereignty, though preservation of Quebec's identity as a nation (in a similar way to that which the natives enjoy) is.

            Nation, in this case, refe

        • Interestingly, in the UK, we've found that since the Left (Labour) came in, we've seen the expansion of initiatives that track and scrutinise the populace (eletronic sensors in the bins to see what we throw away, pervasive CCTV, speed cameras, databases of just about everything, Phorm for the online tracking given the green light and so on).
          It's not a 'right v left' thing methinks, it's a lobbying and corruption thing. Oh, and also an ignorance thing. If someone presents a package and an argument as to wh

      • and I thought Canadians were the levelheaded ones of that particular continent? ;-)

        Sadly, I'm afraid that this bit of legislation is being pushed in conjunction with US/global media interests -- many of our media are somewhat in bed with US corporations, and they all have the same agenda of reserving the right to control anything which might even remotely be used to infringe on their money stream.

        Those companies have been driving getting this kind of thing installed into law in other countries for a long ti

        • by Rix (54095) on Friday October 16, @11:34PM (#29775661)

          Lobbyists are not allowed to give any significant amount of money to politicians in Soviet Canuckistan. Bribes "political contributions" are limited to a few thousand dollars and are stringently regulated.

          • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

            Lobbyists are not allowed to give any significant amount of money to politicians in Soviet Canuckistan. Bribes "political contributions" are limited to a few thousand dollars and are stringently regulated.

            And no lobbyist has ever broken that rule, or circumvented it? /innocent

            • And no lobbyist has ever broken that rule, or circumvented it? /innocent

              There is a big difference between subverting/bending a rule, and deliberate open bribery. THE former can be dismissed as an ethical error, the latter is not a good idea, as if discovered, can come back and bite those involved in the arse.

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            a few thousand dollars by a few thousand Canadians and your into significant amounts of money.
            Never forget the lure of a job after politics, scholarship for family, friends.
          • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

            by Anonymous Coward

            Lobbyists are not allowed to give any significant amount of money to politicians in Soviet Canuckistan. Bribes "political contributions" are limited to a few thousand dollars and are stringently regulated.

            So? You want to know how this works around here (many European countries)? Politicians get exclusive vacations after which they change their agenda by 180 degrees. Or they get very high-paying "consulting" contracts. Or once their term is over, they end up in a high-paying position in a company of their choice.

            Anti-corruption laws are made by politicians for politicians. They cannot work.

          • Actually by law lobbyists in Canada are not allowed to give any money to a politician. Neither are corporations, unions or any other organization only private citizens and they can only donate about 1300 dollars per year.
          • Bribery can also involve something other than money. As a Canadian I can say pretty much each one of our Prime Ministers (equiv to President) has been found out after they left to using their powers to get massive estates built, pushing tax payers money in the form of legislation into the hands of friends and of course lofty and well paid positions within the Government. In politics it is not really about the size of the cheques it is the power transferred. In Canada we just seem to have more effective "
    • Either overtly, or in practice, this demand for private surveillance powers would cover them putting spyware on my machine; but not my putting spyware on their machines....

      Even if you've caught them infringing your copyright
    • "Either overtly, or in practice, this demand for private surveillance powers would cover them putting spyware on my machine; but not my putting spyware on their machines...."

      There's already spyware on your machine, it's called Anti Virus software :)
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      It's getting to be a pretty good argument for abandoning Windows. I'm pondering a BSD machine with Firefox and P2P software running in jails, so even if the program itself had some sort of catastrophic security problem that allowed RIAA, the MPAA or whoever else (FBI, CIA, whatever) to throw in some spyware (if any of these guys even know what FreeBSD is), it would be pretty damned useless.

      • Re:Let me guess... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by QuoteMstr (55051) <dan.colascione@gmail.com> on Saturday October 17, @12:04AM (#29775777)

        I'm ambivalent on whether the parent is troll, but regardless, he has a salient point: when a significant portion of society breaks a law, there's not something wrong with the society, but with the law. Authority to govern comes from the consent of the governed. Ubiquitous lawbreaking without social consequence* is tantamount to retracting that consent. It's a terrible situation: not only is there a very real personal danger of capricious enforcement, but when a lawmaking apparatus is so aloof that it deems most of the people who make up a society unfit to be part of that society, that society is likely very sick in other respects as well.

        * That is, practically nobody will shun you for sharing files, or smoking pot, (or in the 1920s) going to a speakeasy, but if you are acquitted of a murder on a technicality, you can expect to lose many of your friends.

        • by jim_v2000 (818799) on Saturday October 17, @01:27AM (#29775963)
          "Authority to govern comes from the consent of the governed"

          Ah, I thought it came from strange women lying in ponds distributing swords.
          • "Authority to govern comes from the consent of the governed"

            Ah, I thought it came from strange women lying in ponds distributing swords.

            Oh, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!

          • Ah, now that would make for a fun political platform!

        • when a significant portion of society breaks a law, there's not something wrong with the society, but with the law

          So equality between races, genders and minorities rights are wrong?

          • when a significant portion of society breaks a law, there's not something wrong with the society, but with the law

            So equality between races, genders and minorities rights are wrong?

            Your argument does not stand up to critical review. Trying to draw an equivalence between say, one race enslaving another, and the general public participating in -- or turning a blind eye toward -- unauthorized sharing of "intellectual property" is specious reasoning. Consider the absolute worst case of zero public support for intellectual property. What would happen? Would musicians be held in bondage? Would artists be forced to paint for free? Would inventors be chained to their shops until they in

        • but when a lawmaking apparatus is so aloof that it deems most of the people who make up a society unfit to be part of that society, that society is likely very sick in other respects as well.

          Is it the society that is sick, or the lawmaking apparatus? I definitely consider the majority of the US Congress fairly mentally ill... ;)

        • I would like to point out that there are laws which the majority break but the majority also agree with like speeding laws.

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            You're talking about individuals. I'm talking about society. As far as individual acts go, as Dan Ariely said, a fine is a price. Some people are willing to pay it. But I'm not talking about individuals weighing the risks and reward, but rather indications that particular laws are unjust.

            I'm talking about wide-spread lawbreaking without social consequences for the lawbreakers. If littering were common, and nobody seemed to care much, then there would be a case for repealing the laws against it. But neither

          • People don't litter out of respect to society, not out of a fear of legal consequence. Littering would carry the same social stigma regardless. The only use of littering laws is the continued criminilization of everyday behaviour.

            • Re:Let me guess... (Score:5, Interesting)

              by dgatwood (11270) on Saturday October 17, @01:54AM (#29776065) Journal

              It's the continued criminalization of a tiny fraction of the population. Most people don't want to live in a trash heap, so they don't throw trash everywhere. When it comes to things like piracy, it's far more complex. With copyright, one can break the law and realize that its existence is better than its nonexistence. Many justify this (and I'm not arguing for or against here) in large part because the original purpose of copyright was not to stop individuals from copying things for personal use. That narrow interpretation of the law is a relatively recent abuse.

              The purpose of modern copyright (for at least two centuries) has been to protect authors, composers, artists, and musicians, not the publishing industry. More to the point, a large part of its purpose was to protect those people from the industry---so that people who create an original work of authorship can shop it around to a publisher and have recourse if the publisher steals the work, publishes it without permission, and keeps the profits. It was primarily concerned with large-scale commercial copying, not individual copying---to such a degree that the impact on the commercial viability of the work is a consideration for a fair use defense. Indeed, when copyright was created, the notion of personal copying was absurd.

              Indeed, the thought of prosecuting individuals wasn't really even a consideration (at least in the U.S.) before the 1980s and Sony v Universal [wikipedia.org]. Indeed, we can largely blame this mentality on the dissenting arguments posed by Blackmun et al. Prior to that, small-scale copying was not only mostly ignored, but in the few cases where it came up (e.g. Williams & Wilkins Co. v. United States [wikipedia.org]), they got smacked down by the courts pretty badly. Over the past thirty years or so, however, copyright has taken a rather dramatic right turn towards corporate welfare, with absurd term extensions that essentially eradicate the public domain as we know it, dramatic scaling back of fair use rights, lawsuits against individuals and small-scale copying, and various egregious anticompetitive practices like the absurd "three note rule" [songsalike.com] (The Chiffons v. George Harrison), all of which are intended to further tighten the publishing/recording/movie industry's grasp on the creations of we, the artists, musicians, authors, etc.

              So even though I don't condone copyright infringement, even I as a composer, writer, and computer programmer have a hard time with the way copyright is being abused to go after two bit infringement, enough so that I'd rather see copyright law and enforcement rolled back to about 1970, but not enough so that I'd want to see copyright go away altogether. It still is very useful at preventing corporations from stealing people's creations... up until the point at which they sign the contract, anyway, at which point the content creators are usually screwed.... You know... maybe we should roll it back farther than 1970... or at least seriously revisit the notion of works for hire and seriously tighten up what constitutes a work for hire, seriously limit corporate ownership of copyrights, and in general take back copyright from the leachers... and I don't mean the ones on Bittorrent.

              • Indeed, it is clear that I desperately need an editor when writing things late at night. Indeed, I began three sentences in a row with the word indeed. Indeed.

                *sigh*

              • Re:Let me guess... (Score:5, Interesting)

                by SlashWombat (1227578) on Saturday October 17, @02:54AM (#29776215)
                I would have to agree with this, except that most copyright ends up being owned by the very large corporations you suggest are the current demons. To make copyright fair again, I would suggest that copyright not be transferable from the original authors. Indeed, this should be back dated 100 years to totally undo the shit that these companies have perpetrated on the global population. I would also suggest that the copyright period be reduced to something more reasonable, say 50 years ... If you haven't made money/reputation in that period of time, you never will!
                • I would suggest that copyright not be transferable from the original authors.

                  What's the practical difference between a transfer (also called an assignment) of copyright and an exclusive license for the life of the copyright?

          • Re:Let me guess... (Score:5, Insightful)

            by aztracker1 (702135) on Saturday October 17, @12:54AM (#29775887) Homepage

            Actually, I pretty much consider littering one of the most serious breakdowns of society... you are literally polluting your own environment directly. I'd rather have my son pirate every piece of software on his computer, and every bit of media he has a hold of than to see him litter. That's the truth of it... Not that I really condone the piracy of all software and media.

            • Not that I really condone the piracy of all software and media.

              I agree. I wouldn't recommend that anyone pirate Microsoft Access. Ever. For any reason. At all! No reason at all. Believe me, don't touch Microsoft Access. Just let it die. Please?

            • I always thought this to be rather counter-intuitive, but it strikes me time and again when I visit London...

              Compared to San Francisco, New York, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, etc. downtown London is squeaky clean. Not just the parks, but random streets, areas near train/underground stations, etc. as well.
              I hardly ever see any cleaning crews, so it can't be that they're busy cleaning all the time to keep things clean.

              Then at one point in my first visit, I -had- a piece of trash.. an empty coke can ..and after 15 m

              • I also was there. The cleaning crews work late at night (I encoutered one), and the city is rather filthy then. I heard that there are no trashcans because of IRA - people were afraid that terrorists would leave bombs in them.

  • by Voulnet (1630793) on Friday October 16, @11:25PM (#29775621)
    The more spyware and copyright lobbyists get mentioned together in legislation environments, the better. Since the majority of the folks in the judicial system are not tech-savvy, this may be a good chance to print a very bad (and true) trait on the operations of the copyright lobby.
    • by QuoteMstr (55051) <dan.colascione@gmail.com> on Saturday October 17, @12:16AM (#29775807)

      I think corruption is only a partial explanation for these terrible laws.

      As we age, through repetition, our worldview becomes burned into our minds like a phosphor afterglow on an old CRT. We then tend to face novel situations by constructing analogies between them and our ingrained repertoire of concepts, which explains the prevalence of car analogies for computing. But like all analogies, these are imperfect, and when aged lawmakers try to legislate based on these analogies, we get bad policy [wikipedia.org]. Thus, to get truly effective policy, we need people who have an innate understanding of the subject: as the cynical old saying goes, "change comes one funeral at a time."

      By the way: when will people start using computer analogies to explain cars?

      • By the way: when will people start using computer analogies to explain cars?

        Soon. As soon as it's the *other* kind of driver that's to blame for the *other* kind of crashes (quite possibly followed by the regular kind).

      • I watched one of Adam Curtis documentaries, and I liked what one of the people that got interviewed said. The below is from memory so is probably not 100% word for word.

        - Corrupt is your word. It isn't the word I would use.
        - What word would you use?
        - They were seduced.

        It just hit spot on. People are seduced by ideas and once it becomes ingrained into their minds, it is very hard to see the problems with the idea. It must be a good idea because it sounds so good, and if you just look around you can see all t

    • True, that.

      I don't see how *anyone* could get a positive of someone who's trying to fight anti-spam and anti-spyware. Sure, the majority of the population is probably more than a little hazy on spyware, but spam? That one they know, and can't possibly like.

      Let them talk, and just keep asking "so basically, you're fighting to *allow* spam and spyware? You must really not have the common good in mind, eh?"

  • Shame? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by divisionbyzero (300681) on Saturday October 17, @07:40AM (#29776821)

    Do these RIAA and MPAA have no shame? Seriously. How can they ask for these things with a straight face? Must be desperation in the face of an obsolete business model.

  • In several US states, including California, this is already law. In fact, the proposed changes are word-for-word ripped from the California lawbooks. This exception is needed or else people could press criminal charges against Sony. Since they're pushing for these laws, you have to assume that any music CD you buy will infect your PC with a virus, and any RIAA-member musician's website is also designed to infect you with viruses in order to monitor the usage of your computer and report on any illegal dow
    • Mod parent down! He can't read, he's wrong and he's an idiot.

      Despite all that, he's managed to be +5 insightful.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      The copyright lobby is pissed. They want to go fishing. The law would allows them to sneak but only collect data within limits, if they stumble over your emails ect, it gets very tricky.
      They want sneak and peak open season.
      If their "off the rack", one size fits all IP hunting Windows backdoor application gets all your data, so be it.
      If they have to stand in open court and explain case by case how they 'protected' personal information during and after the hacking, it spoils the fun of the rapid IP to c
    • This says there is an exception allowing uninformed installation of programs, and that the copyright lobby is against the exception.

      No - quite the opposite, in fact. It says that the copyright lobby is against removing that exception. The summary states this quite clearly.

      Maybe it's a ploy to trick us into actually reading the article.

      Failing to comprehend the summary (which was not awful, for a change) does not bode well for comprehension of the article.

      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        As the law stands now, they can install spyware without authorization.
        The bill would change this.
        They're trying to remove that part of the bill.

        Got it?
    • The copyright lobby has been pushing to stop the taking away of exceptions (ie. they want the exceptions in there). It is a needlessly complicated sentence.

Contemptuous lights flashed flashed across the computer's console. -- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy