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This is America (Score:4, Insightful)
This is America, where children are the Enemy.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Which is odd, because last week I thought we were destroying civil liberties to save them. I do wish the government would make up its mind. Should we be building more private prisons to hold them cheaply, or should we be cherishing them and making sure they don't see Janet Jackson's nipple?
Re:This is America (Score:5, Insightful)
or should we be cherishing them and making sure they don't see Janet Jackson's nipple?
Well at least we now have a Supreme Court decision that stops overzealous administrators and staff from seeing children's nipples in search of non-existent over-the-count drugs. Now, if only the administrators were actually held liable for their stupid decisions.
Parent
Re:This is America (Score:5, Interesting)
Awhile back in a suburb of San Diego, an overzealous administrator had the good idea to round up [signonsandiego.com] all of the girls at the dance and check their panties so that the filthy whores wearing thongs(or less) could be sent home to change.
And about that, from the link:
Garvik's sophomore daughter was forced to go home and change before she could enter the dance, although thongs are not barred in the school dress code. The code states that undergarments, including "boxers, tank-top undershirts or underwear" should not be exposed.
Some people with authority(especially those in certain government agencies, but I digress) seem to make up the rules as they go along. That's what makes them dangerous.
Parent
Re:This is America (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a parent of a little girl.
I must say that if my child came home and reported either of these incidents I would likely be in police custody as a result.
Now, I personally don't think girls of that age should be wearing g-strings and thongs, but that simply means I police *my* kid. Not other people's kids. Especially if it's not against the rules to begin with. I agree with the "no showing underwear" rule, much like I agree with the "no drugs, and we can search your personal possessions while you are on campus" rules. What I can't fathom is the thought of we'll lift your skirt and strip off you clothes even if we don't have *damn good* evidence or suspicion.
Take this case:
Girl accused of having motrin-400's and they want to find out if she has any more. Search locker, pockets, backpack, purse, STOP! You're done. Seriously, it's Motrin, not crank. And the "informant" is another student who was just busted and wants to shift the blame.
Vs.
Teacher sees dope deal go down, pulls both students in. Weed/speed/whatever is "missing" and no sign it was dropped...
now you get in the territory of _maybe_ getting to a more intimate search.
as it is now as a parent I would press sex offense charges in both cases, sue the pants off the school district, picket the school with the names of the offenders and what they did, and blanket the district with fliers about what happened...
Each incident like this makes me realize that things have only gone downhill since I was in school.
[/rant]
-nB
Parent
Re:This is America (Score:5, Insightful)
Something to consider also is that if it's THAT FREAKIN SERIOUS then you don't let a teacher deal with it, you call the police and let THEM deal with it. That's why we HAVE police to begin with, they know how to handle issues with that kind of gravity.
Teachers deal with school related issues, anything that's threatening life or limb gets sent to the police. The police deal with it, and then it goes to the JUVENILE justice system.
Then again not all cops are as awesome as the one's that have saved my ass from abusive and sometimes outright psychotic school administrators, but if a cop does something this absolutely fuck-dumb then there's already established means of dealing with it.
Parent
Re:This is America (Score:5, Insightful)
Teacher sees dope deal go down, pulls both students in. Weed/speed/whatever is "missing" and no sign it was dropped... now you get in the territory of _maybe_ getting to a more intimate search.
At which point the cops are called. School adminstrators never have the right to strip search kids. Jesus christ...
Parent
Re:This is America (Score:5, Funny)
as it is now as a parent I would press sex offense charges in both cases, sue the pants off the school district...
Then you're no better than they are! Two wrongs don't make a right; just because they saw your daughter's unmentionables doesn't mean you get to see theirs...
Parent
Re:This is America (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that the authorities naturally have that sort of psychological power over children is one of the reasons abusing that authority is so wrong, and should be punished severely.
Parent
Re:This is America (Score:5, Insightful)
Adults. Not children. At 13 she is not capable of reliably determining where the authority of those running the school stops. That's one of the many definitions of being a child.
Parent
Re:This is America (Score:5, Insightful)
Did you read the supreme court decision on the liability thing? It basically comes down to "precedent and legislation here was so confused, that even the Federal appeals court decided incorrectly; there was no way the administrators could have been expected to know whether their actions were constitutional."
Which is sad, but true. I'd have a much easier time claiming the administrators should be liable if every single court in the chain had found against them. But if as it is, I agree the decision was stupid, but non-obviously so. At least to a lot of people. Which once again is very said.
Parent
Re:This is America (Score:4, Insightful)
Not quite. The supreme court said they can't be held liable because _no_one_ knew the law. As in, it was impossible to know it, given what was actually written down.
Similarly, a prosecutor who filed suit against someone based on a law the legislature passed would presumably not be held liable if the law is then challenged and found unconstitutional. Of course if he then continues to bring such suits, things would be different, just as here things would be different for future behavior akin to that of these school administrators.
Shouting cliches doesn't change the fact that this situation (which I, again, think was highly unfortunate behavior on the part of the school administration in the ethical, not just legal, sense) is not the same as "ignorance of the law".
Parent
Re:This is America (Score:5, Insightful)
To be a civil rights violation, the official doesn't have to have been wrong, but the act must have been clearly illegal. This is because off the difference between simply being wrong, and *willfully* using the power of the state to take away people's rights.
When an issue is legally "up in the air," officials would otherwise be in "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations.
hawk, esq.
Parent
Re:This is America (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, I guess it will be easier to get a look at girls' chests in countries with flimsy constitutional protections.
Yeah, I want you around my kids.
Parent
Re:This is America (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah, I want you around my kids.
You're responding to Anonymous Coward.
Rule #1 of parenting is never leave your kids alone with someone until after they agree to tell you their name.
Parent
Re:This is America (Score:4, Funny)
Rule #1 of parenting is never leave your kids alone with someone until after they agree to tell you their name.
The police department has the same rule about giving recruits guns.
Fucking fascists.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
No no, this is America where we have to ruin a child's life in order to prevent them from ruining their life. I suggest 5-10 years of jail for sexting!
Re:This is America (Score:4, Interesting)
This is America, where children are the Enemy.
If you've ever had to be responsible for a bunch of kids, you would understand.
Now, I don't agree with strip searching kids, especially for something stupid like Advil or something. However, the second you state that school officials are not allowed to check your underwear, that's where everything starts getting hidden. Unfortunately, the only way to keep this from being abused and still having some effectiveness would be to publicly allow this type of search, but ban it privately.
It seems that the judge agrees with me. From TFA:
Had Savana been suspected of having illegal drugs that could have posed a far greater danger to herself and other students, the strip search, too, might have been justified, the majority said, in an opinion by Justice David H. Souter.
I also hope that the student that gave the "tip" that this poor girl had pills in her underwear gets an ass-whoopin severe enough to make her grandkids wince when sitting down!
Parent
Re:This is America (Score:5, Insightful)
That's when you call the cops and have it done by professionals who know how to do it properly. Even if my kid was carrying drugs in his or her underwear, I would not want a school administrator doing the search. You think you've got that much evidence, then you pick up the goddamned phone and phone the goddamned cops. If you're a school employee, your job is not to do strip searches, and I hope the kid's lawyers bankrupt the goddamned school. They overstepped their bounds so badly that it's difficult to imagine how they're judgement could have been any worse.
Parent
Re:This is America (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:This is America (Score:4, Insightful)
Neither. You watch her surreptitiously until the police or the parents get there. You do not do anything to tip her off to the fact that she is being watched..
Parent
Re:This is America (Score:4, Informative)
2) 2 adults (never put a single adult with a child or you get accusations) go in the bathroom with the child
3) child goes in the stall ALONE, adults wait outside the stall
4) child is NOT allowed to flush
5) adult checks toilet after child has used it
It's not that hard people. As long as they don't flush (which is EASY to hear) and you watch them wash their hands (no problem there), you are good. If anyone suspects something was left in the bathroom it is easy to check.
Parent
Re:This is America (Score:5, Insightful)
In case you didn't realise just how bad that sounds I've taken the liberty of rephrasing it for you:
"However, the second you state that school officials are not allowed to check your vagina or anus, that's where everything starts getting hidden."
You see how people might have a problem with that? "School-issue speculums" just doesn't have a comforting ring about it.
Parent
Re:This is AmeriKa (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:This is America (Score:5, Insightful)
99 percent of parents I know would physically stop any such action from occurring, and I don't blame them at all!
Parent
Unless... (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless the district had a policy that made this a requirement of the officials, they should be held personally accountable for these horrid actions.
Re:Unless... (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Whys hould a policy help them? (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you really think that "We were just following orders" would be a legitimate exuse?
Parent
And the "!" in the 8 to 1 is... (Score:5, Insightful)
Clarence Thomas, who 'asserted that the majority's finding second-guesses the measures that educators take to maintain discipline "and ensure the health and safety of the students in their charge."'
I can't imagine how forcing a 13-year old girl to strip ensures anyone's health and safety, especially since they were looking for IBUPROFIN, for heaven's sake.
Re:And the "!" in the 8 to 1 is... (Score:4, Interesting)
Clarence Thomas, who 'asserted that the majority's finding second-guesses the measures that educators take to maintain discipline "and ensure the health and safety of the students in their charge."'
I can't imagine how forcing a 13-year old girl to strip ensures anyone's health and safety, especially since they were looking for IBUPROFIN, for heaven's sake.
The majority agrees with that part. From TFA:
Had Savana been suspected of having illegal drugs that could have posed a far greater danger to herself and other students, the strip search, too, might have been justified, the majority said, in an opinion by Justice David H. Souter.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I can't imagine how forcing a 13-year old girl to strip ensures anyone's health and safety,
If they were looking for something really dangerous, on the basis of credible evidence, I'd be the first to applaud them. It sucks, but kids have been used for fighting before [wikipedia.org].
However, in this case they were just enforcing a "zero common sense" policy.
Re:And the "!" in the 8 to 1 is... (Score:5, Informative)
Thomas has had a lot of history with the 4th amendment, usually siding with the enforcement side, so maybe his decision isn't too surprising.
See: Samson v. California, or Board of Education v. Earls. However, in Kyllo v. United States he agreed with the defendant that thermal imaging without a warrant violates the 4th.
Parent
For once, read TFA. (Score:5, Informative)
Okay, I'll admit that, like most Slashdotters, I skip the occasional article and jump straight into the comments, but people should really take the time to read this one!
For instance:
and
The discussion about wether the School Administrator should be held responsible is similarly contentious.
Its nice to know that they chose well on upholding her rights, but its sad how close a thing it seems from the article.
Clarence Thomas's Copy of the Constitution (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Clarence Thomas's Copy of the Constitution (Score:5, Insightful)
In his interpretation, "unreasonable searches" do not exist. Every search has a reason and the 4th amendment is therefore null and void.
Parent
Qualified Immunity (Score:4, Informative)
It is interesting to note that the two Justices that dissented regarding whether or not the school officials were covered by qualified immunity were Justice John Paul Stevens and Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg and that Justice Souter was a part of the majority. If Sotomayor is placed on the bench, it is feasible she would rule much closer to Justice Ginsburg and Stevens then to Souter on these types of matters.
Re:Qualified Immunity (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Qualified Immunity (Score:4, Interesting)
Here in the US, public schools are typically surrounded by barbed wire, and not a small number have metal detectors at the doors. There's typically even a local police officer patrolling the halls in addition to the hired security.
The general perception of a school in the US as a locked-down secure facility really blurs the line. "Reasonable" persons have a completely different frame of reference over here than they do over there..
Or are your schools just as fucked up as ours? If they are, my hypothesis is totally wrong.
Parent
All I know is one thing... (Score:5, Insightful)
... if I was her brother or father I'd probably *still* be in jail for assault.
All bark, no bite (Score:5, Insightful)
However, by a vote of 7-2, the Court also ruled that the individual school officials could not be held personally liable
What good is the ruling if there's no consequence? It seems to me that the biggest problem with government is that there's almost no accountability, and that leads to corruption & abuse of power.
This is time to act. (Score:5, Insightful)
If the courts won't hold them liable, than the people must! If the administrators responsible don't quit, than the students need to go on strike. How can anyone consent to their peers being abused in this manner?!?!? It's time parents, teachers, and students stand up for each other and demand that the administration step down. These pigs are either power hungry megalomaniacs or contributor to sexual assault (or both).
So let me get this straight... (Score:5, Interesting)
But if that same girl willingly texts me a cellphone pic of herself in a bikini, I'm looking at time in hard prison and branded a sex offender for life.
Seems perfectly logical to me.
interesting (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
They posted pics of the whole thing online. I would have sued about that too, but then again, they were suprisingly tasteful. I mean, she did use one of them as her yearbook photo.
Re:My Rights Online? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Good point, it's interstate commerce!
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:News For Nerds How Exactly?!!! (Score:4, Funny)
There, fixed that for ya.
Parent
Re:sue the school? (Score:4, Insightful)
Ahem! [wikipedia.org]
Emphasis mine
Also, See Here [myfoxny.com]
Parent
Re:Stop blaming the government and schools... (Score:5, Insightful)
Hey, here's a thought. The child Did Not have the suspected drugs on her person, and was searched on suspicion of such. The parents, in your argument, did the correct thing and ensured that their child did not carry the inappropriate item to school, but they administrators did the search anyways.
Would you like to review your argument and get back to us a little later?
Parent