Japanese ESRB Bans Rape Depiction In Games 662
eldavojohn writes "The Ethics Organization of Computer Software (EOCS), now 233 companies strong, and met in Tokyo yesterday to ban a controversial title from Japan known as RapeLay, an eroge game (something much more adult than the more popular dating simulators). It's gotten a lot of press as reviewers have noted at one point the player must force sex on a 12-year-old. More importantly, the large ($353 million annually) adult game industry in Japan will now need to stay away from rape in their games if they wish to remain a member of EOCS. RapeLay seems to be available on Amazon's UK and JP sites, sparking outrage and causing a former US Ambassador to Japan to write an editorial criticizing Japan, saying, 'Only Japan allows people to possess these hideous images without penalty. Six of the G-7 countries have found ways to protect the innocent from being prosecuted for possession of child pornography. Is it not time for Japan to find a way to punish the guilty?' Singapore's Straits Times has more details, pointing out that it's still not illegal to possess these materials in Japan. We discussed this and other games last month in an editorial."
Re:Protect the innocent! (Score:4, Interesting)
Which would you pick, Slashdot - a (creepy) guy getting his rocks off to a simulation, or the real thing? Ban the simulation out of existence, then tell me what's left.
Do you have any evidence that less rape is committed as a result of the availability of rape simulation? Until such evidence is provided, this argument is on a par with the idea that rape games cause people to rape.
And in real life... (Score:5, Interesting)
Perhaps this US ambassador should consider the comparitive figures for actual rape of real people who really exist in America and Japan.
Surely this difference is far too big to be explained purely as a reporting bias. 34.20 compared to 1.48 per 100,000 people, first figures I found. It's pretty clear that giving potential rapists the ability to do so in a fictional environment where they do not hurt any real people is a good way of making them less likely to do it for real. "Don't hurt anyone, that would be bad" is a better way of getting people not to hurt anyone than "revealing your fantasies makes you damned whether you hurt anyone or not."
Re:Protect the innocent! (Score:2, Interesting)
Those who have those urges towards children may feel prodded seeing the depicted acts to try them in the real world.
Those who have those urges towards children may feel relieved to have a harmless outlet and a coping mechanism for their urges.
Horrifically bad summary / links from wiki (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Protect the innocent! (Score:1, Interesting)
Japan has low rape rates compared to other countries. Of course, that could just mean lots of rapes go unreported.
Re:Protect the innocent! (Score:5, Interesting)
There will always be the odd problem with 'crazy person see, crazy person do'. He watched Dexter - if he hadn't, he'd have watched some other show involving a serial killer and the result would have been much the same.
Re:cartoons are NOT "child pornography" (Score:3, Interesting)
Let's say fishing is illegal and as abhorred as child pornography. The reasons why both are illegal and abhorred are irrelevant to the metaphor.
Would that make games and tv shows about fishing just as terrible? Would the desire to fish in a virtual sense or watch somebody fish be just as terrible too?
Re:I am hopelessly conflicted (Score:4, Interesting)
This sounds too much like presumption of guilt to me. In a perfect world perhaps it would be reasonable, but this isn't a perfect world and if the police decide to pin a crime on someone because they know they play these types of games, that person is going to suffer unreasonable harassment.
Also, the very existence of this information and its ability to be used for these purposes means that your arguments are conflicting with each other: those who do have these types of fantasies and think there's even a remote chance they may act on them one day will avoid ever having any association with these types of products. Therefore, if playing these games does actually have any kind of effect on people's real life behaviour, those "on the border" who would benefit from having a safe, non-harmful outlet will deliberately avoid utilising that outlet.
In addition, the negative stigma that is obviously being attached to it ("you can have the game, but we're putting you on our watch list, you disgusting pervert") means people will avoid them. I think these things are only useful if they can de-stigmatise particular desires, to effect a shift in perception to one of understanding: "yes you can play these games, it's fine to have these fantasies, just be aware that doing it for real will make us all very upset".
Making people feel ashamed of themselves for their thoughts and primal urges seems counter-productive, to me.
Re:Protect the innocent! (Score:5, Interesting)
Why is there such a huge demand for murder simulators in the US?
Why are some crimes forbidden to simulate, but violence, shooting people, and murder are fine?
Re:Protect the innocent! (Score:5, Interesting)
That said, I've been to Japan twice now, and I've got to say, there are a lot less sick fucks there than there are here. If someone's a deviant there, they are relatively open about it. Here, everyone is secretive and joins right in on the mob behavior against something, even though they likely enjoy it when they're alone.
Re:Protect the innocent! (Score:1, Interesting)
It so happens that rape occurs significantly less often in Japan than the countries criticizing Japan.
Rape is far more common that murder. (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm not condoning actual rape in any form, but surely a simulation of such a thing running on someone's computer can't be worse than an equally detailed simulation of killing and then dismembering someone with a chainsaw?
Maybe because crime statistics show that rape is 5-7x more likely to occur than murder. And that's just reported rape, and I'm pretty sure those stats don't include molestation. It seems like the risks are higher in that people are more likely to commit that type of crime than violent murder.
In extreme cases, it may even be a way for sexual misfits to satisfy their urges without harming actual, living people, letting them be functional members of society.
People say that, but they never offer data to back it up, really. In my experience, the few friends I knew who got into the more deviant side of porn just kept getting deeper and deeper into it. Can't say that I know any loli fans (that I know of), but it seems that once you get a taste for the horrible, it plays a larger and larger part of your sexual fantasies.
Not that I'm saying I expected any of them to become rapists. It takes a special kind of mind to cross that line.
Re:Protect the innocent! (Score:4, Interesting)
And your justification to include the makers of RapeLay to this category would be... that the game disturbs you?
Also, would you let me go through your stuff and destroy whatever I deemed deserving? In fact, would you let me destroy you if I find you disturbing (which I do)? If not, then perhaps you should accept that the bar should be a bit higher than that. Unless, of course, you wish to suggest that you're deserving to make this judgement and I'm not, in which case I'd hazard to guess that you're a politician.
I believe you meant a clue rather than warning.
Anyway, you are quite wrong. Lots of pornography contains violence and depictions of rape. Owning a particular piece doesn't say anything about the guilt of the owner.
He's correct, actually. Do a quick search on the Web, and you'll have no trouble coming up with sick things from any continent. That's because human nature is pretty much the same everywhere.
Or just more capable of admitting their own fantasies. Remember the whole "Hot Coffee" scandal in GTA:SA? It was a game where you played a gangster who stole cars and killed lots of people - and yet one lousy sex scene was what got the moral guardians up in arms. Now that was sick.
Assuming, for the sake of argument, that all of them were, what is your point? We aren't talking about abusing actual children, but drawn images and computer-generated graphics.
Re:Protect the innocent! (Score:2, Interesting)
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_vic-crime-rape-victims [nationmaster.com]
Now, while I can't say that it definitely lowers the amount of rape that occurs, I think it's fairly safe to say that in Japan's case, it doesn't increase the number of rapes either.
That's Not Correct (Score:5, Interesting)
"Those who have those urges towards children may feel prodded seeing the depicted acts to try them in the real world."
Research [newgon.com] suggests otherwise. People need a harmless and legal outlet for their urges; for teleiophilic adults, options include sex with another consenting adult or adult pornography for those who can't find a partner. For paedophiles, the already short list of harmless and legal outlets is becoming ever shorter due to the moral crusaders who seek to ban everything which they find offensive. Shotacon/lolicon are one of the few outlets which are still legally available in some countries (although cartoons are quickly being criminalised). If you ban everything which may arouse paedophiles, you'll be left with people who simply ignore the law or people who are dangerously bitter, angry and hostile towards society.
Policy advisors would benefit from actually doing research with responsible paedophiles rather than making assumptions about the effects of certain stimuli. Listening to childrens' charities is a huge mistake, as charities have a motivation to make things worse in order to encourage further donations from naive, shallow citizens.
Re:Guilty of what? (Score:3, Interesting)
I really feel idiots who think people shouldn't be allowed to do something because it's "creepy" to them should fuck off. There is a *lot* of weird shit out there that people get off to and much of it thoroughly creeps me out, but I'm smart enough to realize that this is an entirely subjective matter and it is not reasonable to deprive a person of something they enjoy, even if they don't absolutely need it, even if it creeps out 99.9% of the population, on such grounds.
Reminds me of when someone told me to google "Scat Lovers". More disgusting(to me) than creepy, but not illegal.
Contrary to popular belief, you do not have the right to do whatever you damn well want. You still have to fit into society. Society has laws. If you want to fantasize about breaking those laws, you are allowed to, but I'm not sure if we should be encouraging it as a society... Some things should be shunned instead. I feel hardcore rape depictions should be. It appears you don't.
Just be aware that if enough people encourage something, it happens, regardless of the law. See: Female circumcision.
Re:Protect the innocent! (Score:5, Interesting)
How the Web Prevents Rape [slate.com]
Study finds online porn may reduce the incidence of rape [nydailynews.com]
Watching violence and porn could reduce violent crime and rape [businessshrink.biz]
Re:MOD PARENT UP (Score:5, Interesting)
Are you sure? Going after dealers only increases the risk, which increases the price , which increases the reward, which increases the violence.
The drug issue, as with child porn (and violent porn, and to some extent porn in general) is more complicated than anyone seems willing to admit.
Re:Guilty of what? (Score:2, Interesting)
I dont really have the means to become an invisible french agent, highly trained space marine with force field armor, fireball spitting sorcerer, nor acrobatic time shifter (TF2, Halo, WoW, PoP). I do have the means to become the creepy playground stalker (not that I want to). Its a matter of possibility. Yes, many games depict/glorify violence, yet those depictions are false and impossible. When they become practical/possible that they become disturbing too (see GTA).
Re:I know what's gonna happen now (Score:5, Interesting)
Meh, I have RapeLay and have had it for years.
I just can't get off to eroge in general. Give me conventional hentai, or doujinshi anyday. =P
More on topic though, it should be noted in Japan, 'rape' is considered a popular fetish (in fact I'd argue *most* hentai/doujinshi depict rape scenes), underaged school girls feature in the majority of them too, and lolicon (pre-pubescant girls) are fairly prevelant in hentai/doujinshi as well. It just isn't considered as 'bad' to have that kind of fetish. Hell, even in real life, I've read of problems with middle aged businessmen sustaining long term relationships with young underaged girls.
Which is why I'm really surprised they managed to ban RapeLay. I mean, does that mean they'll ban *all* rape hentai? I can't imagine that not hurting their porn industry...
~Jarik
Re:I know what's gonna happen now (Score:5, Interesting)
More on topic though, it should be noted in Japan, 'rape' is considered a popular fetish (in fact I'd argue *most* hentai/doujinshi depict rape scenes), underaged school girls feature in the majority of them too, and lolicon (pre-pubescant girls) are fairly prevelant in hentai/doujinshi as well. It just isn't considered as 'bad' to have that kind of fetish. Hell, even in real life, I've read of problems with middle aged businessmen sustaining long term relationships with young underaged girls.
Yeah, all of the above is pretty fucked up. I kind of steer clear of any society in which rape is mainstream. That and the obsession with tentacles. Weird.
I really hate stereotyping an entire nation, but most of what I learn about Japan makes me think "man, those fuckers are *nuts*!". It's really the only country on earth where I could see Caligula fitting in. Somebody tell me that rape porn isn't totally mainstream over there, I'll feel better about our Japanese friends.
Re:I know what's gonna happen now (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:I know what's gonna happen now (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course, everyone fails to mention that Japan has the lowest rape rate per capita [nationmaster.com] in the world. Perhaps it has something to do with the availability of such materials to quench the urge of would be rapists?