eBay Describes the Scale of Its Counterfeit Goods Problem 124
Ian Lamont writes "As the Tiffany vs. eBay lawsuit winds its way through a federal appeals court, eBay has trotted out some numbers that show how many sellers attempt to sell fake goods on the auction site. Millions of auctions were delisted last year, and tens of thousands of accounts were suspended after reports were made to eBay's Verified Rights Owner program, which lets trademark owners notify eBay of fake goods being sold on the site. eBay says 100% of reported listings were removed from the site last year, most within 12 hours, and the company uses sellers' background information to make sure that they don't create new accounts to sell delisted items. Tiffany brought the suit against eBay in 2004, alleging that eBay was turning a blind eye to counterfeit luxury goods and demanding that eBay police its listings for bogus goods. Tiffany lost the case last July and will shortly present its arguments to the US Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit in New York. A similar case in France cost eBay $61 million."
Sure... (Score:5, Interesting)
If anything, too responsive to VeRO (Score:5, Interesting)
I used to work at an electronics retailer and we'd sell our returns on ebay(those that were functional, we had a lax return policy).
Despite being authorized distributers of the products we put on there, we had our accounts suspended several times by VeRO when one of the many third party watchdog services reported us erroneously. We usually had to track down somebody at the manufacturer and get them to fax "yes they can sell our stuff" to ebay.
And then a few weeks later, it'd happen again. Those watchdog services must get paid by # of items removed.
Everyday goods as well (Score:5, Interesting)
Could care less about Tiffany (Score:4, Interesting)
Too bad eBay doesn't put as much effort in to shutting down scammers of all kinds, not just those selling fake name brand goods.
At least with a bootleg item you get something... (Score:5, Interesting)
Site policy has zero tolerance for sellers who list counterfeit items, and will also suspend any seller who lists a counterfeit item more than one time. Sharpe reports that...30,000 sellers [were] suspended.
One of the major reasons that eBay has so many fraudulent listings is that scam artists exploit a flaw in eBay's user database. And I'm not even talking about listening bootlegged or forged items. I'm talking about listing items that don't even exist.
The scam artists find eBay accounts and break into them, specifically accounts that have high feedback numbers (or transactions recorded) but have little activity in the last year. They basically dig through the user database for inactive accounts and then try to hijack them, taking over the account, and then changing the billing information before listing the fake items. Because the hijacked account already has positive feedback with it people are far more likely to trust the account and auction, not being critical enough to suspect they are being scammed for money or being sold knockoff items.
Another scam I've seen is where people purchase tons of electronics, like say they purchase dozens of video game consoles. They take pictures of the consoles to prove that they have them in hand. They then sell them to friends, family, or strangers for cash in person, while keeping the receipts for the original product. They then list the consoles on eBay and sell them to people taking the money from PayPal. But, because they've already sold the item off for cash, they tell the person who sent them money over PayPal that they will get a refund. They then call the cops, say that they have been robbed and someone stole several dozen expensive electronic components from them and then they recover whatever homeowners or rental insurance covers stolen property.
I purchase tons of expensive electronics on eBay. Multi-thousand dollar synthesizers, hardware video editing consoles, and vinyl record components. Some items seem to be half scams and half real and eBay doesn't do a damn thing to stop people from listing fake items. They rely on users to constantly scream at eBay to take the fake listings down. I have to persist often to get eBay to take down the endless fake auctions for Pioneer DJ components that are listed day after day and eBay still can't figure out a filter for this problem.
At the end of the day eBay is still great (minus the shipping charges).
Re:HAH!!! (Score:2, Interesting)
MMO gold (Score:4, Interesting)
I see hundreds of MMO (ok, WoW) gold listings every day, and if ebay claims 100% vero compliance that probably accounts for a lion's share of their statistics. Blizzard aggressively has these taken down, I know because when I auctioned my account they had that taken down even though I was including the game with it (first sale doctrine gives me the right to sell my cds, and I am equally free to expose my account information as I please).
I would have filed a counterclaim, except that by the time ebay removed my auction, it had already closed and the deal was done -- but to comply with vero, they deleted the auction anyway and *refunded my fees* accordingly. So, uh, thanks to Blizzard and ebay!
The VERO Customer Support is terrible!!! (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:The VERO Customer Support is terrible!!! (Score:2, Interesting)
Maybe I'm just mo naive than some, but, isn't that a legitimate case, ie: they are within the law to ask eBay to remove/disable/etc your ability to sell their product.
Maybe you should contact them, sign up to be a distributor. Or make your own kool-aid, and sell that so they don't have a "monopoly". And I'd like to point out that a quick search led me to 3 companies, MonaVie, AgroLabs and Dr. Tims, which means there is probably another 6 at least.
Re:Sure... (Score:4, Interesting)
I was selling a used Kaplan book,
This VERO program ... they canceled my auction, emailed all the bidders and told them i was a criminal selling counterfeit stuff?
Ebay said there was nothing they could do? (wtf it is their website???) Kaplan just did not want people selling used books.
Re:Sure... (Score:4, Interesting)
Sounds like a perfectly reasonable excuse to prevent a legit buyer of a pair of the original 500 jeans from reselling their product... Lets lawyer up!
I understand your point, and would like to propose a little thought experiment.
Suppose I buy a pair of those jeans from "Company X," without any way of knowing whether the scenario you described has transpired or not (I'll leave it to other posters to argue the finer points of your post). I then turn around and sell the jeans on eBay. Am I then complicit in any wrongdoing, assuming I can prove that I paid good currency for the product in the first place?
Buy local (Score:2, Interesting)
This is why I hardly ever buy on eBay any more (sell yes, buy no). I buy stuff on craigslist.org precisely because I can inspect stuff myself first hand before buying, and if I'm stupid enough (or want) to buy a fake, that's my problem. Not surprisingly, eBay owns 25 percent of craigslist now, but buying remotely, sight unseen, from "discount sellers" though eBay is, IMHO synonymous with asking to get ripped off. Its just too easy, as other posters have pointed out, to rip people off, and neither eBay nor Paypal do a damn thing about it.
Re:Sure... (Score:3, Interesting)
how many of those items were NOT counterfeits, but merely real items that the trademark owner wants to illegitimately prevent from being legitimately resold?
Lots and lots. EBay, as they say, removes 100% of reported listings.
A hall of shame from someone who likes to countersue... or is it just sue.... or... take these companies to court, and win: http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/HallOfShame/HallOfShame.shtml [tabberone.com]
Re:The VERO Customer Support is terrible!!! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:If anything, too responsive to VeRO (Score:4, Interesting)
I just figured after we were on a name basis with some of them they would've reminded the watchdogs that there are legit distributers.
But you're right, the only time we ever saw a change was when we shipped a pallet(some good as new, some we would have written off) back to the manufacturer with 3 canceled ebay notices attached to the shipping papers.
Didn't have a problem with them again, but, as you say, we weren't big enough to do that to someone like Monster Cable(who is the great Satan anyway).
Re:At least with a bootleg item you get something. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Everyday goods as well (Score:4, Interesting)
The problem is actually much worse... (Score:5, Interesting)
If anything, too active... (Score:3, Interesting)
Look at the rate at which they've been able to get Scientology stuff banned from eBay (such as 100% legit e-meters)... Because if there's a used market, the CoS doesn't make as much money.
Re:At least with a bootleg item you get something. (Score:3, Interesting)
They then list the consoles on eBay and sell them to people taking the money from PayPal. But, because they've already sold the item off for cash, they tell the person who sent them money over PayPal that they will get a refund. They then call the cops, say that they have been robbed and someone stole several dozen expensive electronic components from them and then they recover whatever homeowners or rental insurance covers stolen property.
Lately, whenever I've sold something on PayPal that's been more than $50, PayPal has held the money in escrow until either the buyer gives me positive feedback, the shipping company confirms the package was delivered, or 30 days goes by. It's happened to me at least 6 times in the last couple of months. It's not annoying, but it does cause a small delay in getting my money.
As for telling the police about the stolen goods and getting an insurance claim, I'd have to imagine someone can only try that once in their life. I'd like to think that the second time, the police might suspect something and the insurance company would laugh at you.
Poor people don't care about buying the real thing (Score:3, Interesting)
Like someone is actually going to believe that a person driving some old little hatchback car with a job at Tesco actually bought a real Fendi bag.
My complaint is how hard it is to buy real video games thanks to all the junk from Hong Kong.
Maybe it's improved but if ever I go back to buy a game from ebay I will flat out refuse to buy from anyone that looks like their image came from a google search.
Re:Sure... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:HAH!!! (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course, today it often works out like this: Company A pays Xa to market a trademark. Company A needs something to sell to recoup marketing costs, and know their campaign generate an average product purchase rate of Za. Company A buys generic goods from production company B for Ya. Company A sets price of product to (Xa/Za)+Ya.
Well, that often comes along with it, but in principle it's not necessary unless the original design cost is so low that it is close to the design cost of copying.
Amortized of the series we're talking about design cost is negligible, even if you actually do it inhouse; design isn't a very people-intensive area. Marketing, lobbying and channel control would be far more expensive.
I suspect trademarks are only slightly less damaging to the economy than patents and copyright, but at least their damage isn't infinite as far as to preventing others from distributing similar goods.
There are also reasonable ways to counter the worst of the damage; one could require goods to be designer, producer and product ID marked to be protected by trademarks, ie, if the trademark owner outsources design and production, then customers can buy the exact same unmarked good by buying no-name product ID referenced goods, basically bypassing the scam.