Should You Get Paid While Your Computer Boots? 794
An anonymous reader notes a posting up at a law blog with the provocative title Does Your Boss Have to Pay You While You Wait for Vista to Boot Up?. (Provocative because Vista doesn't boot more slowly than anything else, necessarily, as one commenter points out.) The National Law Journal article behind the post requires subscription. Quoting: "Lawyers are noting a new type of lawsuit, in which employees are suing over time spent booting [up] their computers. ... During the past year, several companies, including AT&T Inc., UnitedHealth Group Inc. and Cigna Corp., have been hit with lawsuits in which employees claimed that they were not paid for the 15- to 30-minute task of booting their computers at the start of each day and logging out at the end. Add those minutes up over a week, and hourly employees are losing some serious pay, argues plaintiffs' lawyer Mark Thierman, a Las Vegas solo practitioner who has filed a handful of computer-booting lawsuits in recent years. ... [A] management-side attorney... who is defending a half-dozen employers in computer-booting lawsuits... believes that, in most cases, computer booting does not warrant being called work."
No. (Score:5, Interesting)
The person who telecommutes would not get paid for that time, why should the person in office?
Cheap Bastards (Score:4, Interesting)
I used to work for a really cheap company, but we had a dedicated time clock system with punch cards (that eventually evolved into a magnetic strip w/PIN code system).
I got paid to boot up my PC or to sweep the floor all day and never boot up... no difference really, it is ALL WORK.
NOTE: Booting up your work PC is PART OF YOUR JOB (otherwise I'd leave it on 24/7)...
Just like the State Highway Patrol gets paid for the time Troopers take start and defrost their cruisers. Are they working? SURE ARE! (And they get paid for that time too... not just for 'protecting and serving' and writing speeding tickets...)
Re:These lawsuits don't make any sense. (Score:4, Interesting)
It looks like the issue is that the workers agree with you: The employers do not want to pay for the time to be there. My guess would be that the "clock in" is done on the computer.
Re:15 minutes? (Score:4, Interesting)
Also waiting for network connections takes time.
If that isn't work, then they'd better provide hammocks for the time you are waiting. (Or better, they should just obey the law and pay their employees.)
The real problem (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem is that many employers use a time keeping system which pays employees based on when they log into some system. For example, a friend of mine works through manpower as a temp for $10/hour just answering phones all day. When she gets to work, she must turn on the computer, and wait for it to boot, which is not the same as home computer because it boots from a network and has to log into a Citrix server somewhere. That takes a bit longer. Then, once a desktop appears, you have to open the "soft phone" software to control the phone and log into the queue. Only then do you actually start getting paid.
There is no way for the employer to know that an employee is at work and working unless they are logged into the soft phone. This means that if she has to be at work at 8:00, that really means she has to have the computer on and be logged in by 8:00, so in reality, be there by 7:45 and be "at work" but not be paid for that first 15 minutes.
It's not that the problem isn't solvable, even with a different technical solution, it's just that's the way they do things. The employers don't see it as a problem, and if you aren't logged in by the time you are supposed to be working, you are "late". Rack up around 5 "lates" or so, and you are fired automatically. It's all done by computer systems behind the scenes, so if you log into the phone at 8:01, you risk being fired. All the more reason that it is really underhandedly telling employees that they must show up for work 15 or more minutes early, and that time is unpaid.
It's not just about being at work and having to reboot and go unpaid in the middle of your day, it's about the only way your boss knows you are even at work requires the computer to already be on.
Re:15 minutes? (Score:5, Interesting)
How the hell does it take anyone 15 minutes to boot up their computer.
Anti Virus software (such as the bloated Symantec and Norton products) examining every single file that is accessed when a user's 1GB+ roaming profile is synchronized across a network that is already clogged to begin with is just one of many ways to cause this effect.
It's the law. (Score:5, Interesting)
Some employers have tried to tell people to show up 15 minutes early so they are "ready to go" when work actually starts at 8:00 (or whenever). Won't wash. If they require the employees to be there for those 15 minutes, they are required to pay the employees for those 15 minutes.
Re:Yes. (Score:3, Interesting)
If it really takes employees 15 mins to boot all the crap they use, and they have a policy that says you can't punch in until your pc is ready to go, they yeah they should be sued.
We won one of those (Score:4, Interesting)
I worked many moons ago as a tech support agent for BellSouth Internet - of course, my actual employer was ClientLogic, who no longer exists.
The tech support client was different from all the other kinds of phone support that operated in the facility. The others had at most one app - generally a DOS DB driver app for taking orders. and you'd telnet in, and run it. There was no account for accessing the system, and the departments were small enough that employees used the same cubicle day in day out.
The contract with BellSouth required that a number of applications be opened. Each one had a login. They varied by which kind of service you provided - DSL support, Dial Up support, or the various forms of advanced support. Also managing all those windows was terrible on Windows (hah). In the absence of virtual desktops managing as many as 20 mandatory apps got insane.
And,of course, the number of employees exceeded the number of allocated cubicles. So as soon as you stood up, the next shift was grabbing your cubicle, logging out, logging back in, and starting up those apps.
At first, it was standard operating procedure to walk in, go to one of the various machines hanging around, sign into the phone system, which was also the time tracker, log out so that you weren't taking calls on the machine, and let the next guy clock in, while you hunted around for a cubicle, and brought the machine up. But BLS was the only client who had this issue, and a manager was brought in from another department and removed the machine.
All hell broke loose. I was promoted at that point, and effectively, if not officially, had my own cubicle. I was logged into the system all the time, so I didn't have to get into the various fights about the issue, although several people either quit or were fired.
Over a year after leaving, I got a moderately fat check in the mail from the class action lawsuit which had occurred unbeknownst to me. And damn right. I had to arrive early and setup a computer as required by the client in the contract. ClientLogic got more money per call taken from BLS than from other clients because of the additional requirements the techs had to follow - but I don't get paid for doing the actual leg work?
Re:15 minutes? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:No. (Score:4, Interesting)
I have argued for the fact that we all should be paid for travelling aswell, after all travel time isn't fun and is usually a requirement.
Re:15 minutes? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's something that I think really needs to be addressed, because even 10 minutes a day wasted on this crap is more than a week's worth of unpaid work every year.
Re:Yes. (Score:5, Interesting)
Many corporations are now utilizing virtual time clock software, requiring hourly employees to clock in via their PC. Couple that with a hypothetical policy of having to shut down PCs overnight to save power, and presto, employees don't get paid for booting.
Re:Yes. (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, the service industry is a bad example. I worked at a convenience store for a summer and my wife worked at a coffee shop for a while. Both of us stopped getting paid when the doors were locked despite the fact that there was still cleanup to be done. The theory was that we were supposed to be cleaning as the shift was winding down, but time and customers rarely allowed for that. Crappy summer jobs aren't necessarily comparable to career jobs, however (unless you're unfortunate enough to have a crappy service job as your career) because both of us had the option to leave and take better jobs where we were paid fairly.
Just because it happens in practice doesn't make it legal. IANAL but a good rule of thumb is when you arrive at work, and are ready to work, you get paid. Over a decade ago I did the summer job thing, dishwasher, food service, even some light industrial. All tried to play the game of stiffing pay. Light industrial for example it's common to not pay people for the first hour, just have them wait around until other people show up. Food service, if it's sluggish they would prefer you hang out and drink coffee before getting paid. You got out of bed, you got there ontime, you're working. It doesn't matter if they have nothing for you to do, if you can't go home, you're at work. It often takes a few phone calls to the department of labor to verify this.
Re:15 minutes? (Score:3, Interesting)
So why don't you punch in beforehand?
Because I get paid from 9-5, no matter when I actually show up. However, we have been told several times by our superiors that not being ready to take calls at 9 is unacceptable. Our compliance to schedule is measured as well, and not taking calls at 9 = out of compliance = anything from loss of bonuses to disciplinarian action.
Re:I'm in the building (Score:4, Interesting)
Scheduled Power Up. (Score:3, Interesting)
If employers want to decrease the boot up time, than either leave the machines on 24/7 or in the BIOS Schedule the power on.
However I feel that Boot Time counts as work. If you are a draftsman, you get paid as you set your desk up, tape the paper down, etc. Setup to work counts as work! Employees have no control over the computer gear, the boot up times, or anything of the like.
If they use the logic that boot time does not count as work... Than employers can then not pay you when the network goes down, when your computer stops working, or for any computer/network problem that is outside your control!
However does anyone else feel this may be payback for employees checking personal e-mail, playing games in their browser, ordering personal items online... Basically wasting time on the company dime.
Re:15 minutes? (Score:5, Interesting)
When I worked at a call centre, punching in was tied directly to the "ready to take calls" status on my phone. We were expected to reboot and sign into the computer and about 8 applications and websites and read all the newest service alerts before signing into the softphone to take calls.
As soon as we signed out of the softphone for any reason other than a scheduled break or training it also punched us out. So we weren't paid for reboots or quick trips to the bathroom, or even for stepping away from your desk to ask a supervisor or colleague for help between calls. Well, the supervisors would make sure you got paid if you had to talk to them by correcting your time sheet, if they remembered.
Shafting the employees for 15 minutes every day only made it that much worse for the company. Their customers got poorer service and were put on hold frequently. We also found ways to cheat the system. Time theft was rampant there, and everybody justified it to themselves and others as fair because the company was stealing from us everyday. Management would eventually weed out the worst offenders, but being a shitty call centre it had a very high attrition rate as it was so getting fired was kinda difficult.
While I was there, I contacted a reporter for the newspaper who was also a former president of his local. His union also represents workers in call centres, and he and I met for lunch with a union organizing rep. He told me that he would help bring the union in, but often call centres will simply relocate as soon as they notice any organizing. This was very likely at my call centre, where on the first day of training we had to read together the first page of the training binder a bunch vaguely threatening anti-union propaganda.
One time while I was working, fire alarms went off in the building. I told my customer about the alarms and that I had to hang up. Just as I was doing that a supervisor stood on a chair announced that they were checking to see if it was a false alarm and to keep taking calls. I locked my computer and headed towards the exit, where another supervisor was physically preventing people from leaving by standing in front of the entrance in a fighting stance. A few minutes later news came back that it had indeed been a false alarm, but they hadn't known that when they prevented us from leaving.
It's that same attitude from the Triangle Garment factory. These call centre companies are 21st century white collar sweat shops. That day when the fire alarm went off really put things into perspective for me.
Needless to say, I didn't get paid for the time away from my desk trying to get out of the building because of fire.
Re:No. (Score:4, Interesting)
While your suggestion was obviously impractical the way you framed it, most computers have an option in the BIOS to power on automatically at a certain time every day. All of the computers in the office could be set to turn on at 8:45, and then they'd be all ready by the time the workers arrived. Better yet, they could be staggered so that they wouldn't all be swamping the network at once. Groups of computers could turn on at 5 minute intervals. You wouldn't have to leave them on and waste power, you wouldn't have to pay people to turn them on, and the employees would be all set to go when they got to work.
Re:It's the law. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:15 minutes? (Score:1, Interesting)
I worked in a call centre where we only got paid once we started calling. My day would typically start like this:
* boot computer
* realize the mouse is broken
* go look for a replacement mouse
* realize the ps/2 port is doesn't work either
* boot another computer
* can't connect to the network
* boot another computer
* login to computer
* wait for client software to start
* login to client so I finally get my employee id on the time sheet
* discover that my head set is broken
It would sometimes take me close to 45 minutes to find a terminal where everything was working. People more desperate than myself would show up 30 minutes early for their shift and guard the last working terminal they had used. It's a sad kind of life. There's really no financial incentive for the company to fix everything.
Re:Yes. (Score:5, Interesting)
WTF dude you aren't slaves. Your employer owes you backpay. Don't let anyone fuck with you when it comes to your paycheck. The third option is to sue him for back pay when you leave. If it's overtime he owes you so much the better. Probably best to let a lawyer do it for the cost of your backpay, if for nothing else than to teach him a lesson.
(In)Active Directory is the culprit (Score:3, Interesting)
Parking Ones Concerns (Score:3, Interesting)
This dispute is partly resolved by the "Portal-to-Portal Act"
A good employer would pay their employees from time onto property to time off property. Some former coworkers recently told me about a situation where their parking spaces, a mere 10 minute walk from their desks, were given to more important employees and now they get to ride a shuttle bus to a parking lot 3 miles away, which adds an extra 40 minutes or so to their work-related time, but they get no pay out of it. The employer has closer land but it would cost much more to develop and they incur none of the costs of the hundreds of displaced employees' time, so they don't see the development as worthwhile.
I had the good sense to quit years ago, but the compensation package is pretty good for light work so they suck it up. Anyway, Vader-style negotiations are no way for an employer to behave.
Absolutely (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't recall the case name, but just a couple of years ago it was ruled that employees had to be paid during periods where they were putting on and taking off protective gear and uniforms. I can't see waiting for a machine to boot up to be any different.
Major back-pay is coming their way for this. All those 15 to 30 minute periods add up. Plus probable punitive damages, and sometimes the feds even decide to toss a fine in for good measure.
Re:15 minutes? (Score:2, Interesting)
If you get paid to start at 9 yet your computer takes 20 minutes to boot-to-usable, to be in compliance you would be required to arrive at work at 8:40 to get the ball rolling to be ready in time.
There are only 2 values of time when someone has a job; their personal time and their work time and neither should infringe on the other without consequence.
Re:Yes. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Scheduled Power Up. (Score:3, Interesting)
However does anyone else feel this may be payback for employees checking personal e-mail, playing games in their browser, ordering personal items online... Basically wasting time on the company dime.
Can you go home? No? You get paid IMHO. Obviously it's not good to waste money on company time, but the fact of the matter is there often are times of major latency where you need to do "something" to maintain your sanity. Obviously non productive workers should get the sack, that goes without saying, and one should use their breaks and lunch hour to do personal crap.
hypothetical (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Other tasks? (Score:4, Interesting)
Unavailable for sex rule (Score:3, Interesting)
The rule really simple, if you can't drop everything and have sex because of work then you're on working time.
So it includes being in the car or on the train, it doesn't include your morning shower though!
If the employer feels that this point in time isn't in your per hour rate all that means is that it's dropping their hourly rate to below the Mc'D down the road. You know what to do.
Of course the problem is some people don't know what to do, or don't think they can do it.
BTW: If you get home and are too tired that time should probably be included too! OTOH TIPS should NOT be included, they aren't paid by the employer after all.
like this where I work (Score:3, Interesting)
my computer atw ork takes forever to boot, its not just the act of booting windows either its all the other programs that you have to load (and hope it actually works first time) before you cana ctually start doing your job, which in my case is call center related.
It can easily take 15 minutes plus to login and load everything on a good day. I do tend to leave my pc running overnight when I leave work (lukcily have this option due to mys hift but most don't since there pc will be used by another person after them) but its actually against company policy to leave your pc running and I hate to think how much power it wastes.
The thing is in my place you can only sign/clock in to the systems when you are rdy to start taking calls why they will pay you for your scehduled hours no matter what you do get marked down for none aderhence if you are not doing your job between hours your employed. This affects your bonus you get from company and I suppose could also get you sacked if it happend all the time.
They specifically tell you to come in 10-15 minutes early to boot up.
I suppose in theory you should get paid for it, but to be honest its probably wise your at work 10-15 minutes early anyway to grab a coffee ect, to make sure your fresh to actually do your job. I suppose its one of them things you just have to live with like having to travel to work if you just accept itspart of your job you won't get annoyed by it, if you think your normal pay is not sufficient to cover this 15 odd minutes then you can always leave to find new employment. The system that they have employed is probably about fair overallwithout bringing in extra systems and checks lots of people do extra work they are't paid for most more than 15 minutes a day.
Re:Yes. (Score:3, Interesting)
If those "poor victimized employees" really work in a call center, there's no damn way they're starting work an hour late. They add up the amount of time you were logged in to the phone system every day, and every week they tell you it wasn't good enough, and you should eat/poop less, etc.
On the other hand, if they're not in a call center, they should be judged by better metrics than "were you at your desk". Like how much work you got done, how many sales made, etc.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Who turns it off at the end of the day? (Score:3, Interesting)
Here's a laptop, in case you need to help overnight.
Here's a cable, lock it up so it doesn't disappear.
Here's a bag, enjoy schlepping the thing back and forth every day.
Re:Yes. (Score:4, Interesting)
I think that if the capitalists want you to vote with your dollars to weed out the crappy products or companies by not buying from them, it's even more important to vote with your hours and just not work for assholes any longer than necessary.
Re:Yes. (Score:5, Interesting)
I love the young kids working and doing what some Jerk-wad boss tells them to do. If I get paid from 8-5 then I turn on the PC at 8:00am and not a second before, and Log off? screw that, the pc get's it's power button held down at 5:00pm or I start shutdown at 4:50.
If the boss bitches I say , "so fire me" I'm doing the company a favor, not the other way around, dont be scared to tell your boss no, he needs to thank you every day for coming in and giving the company your skills.
Yes that is reality, many of you guys out there think otherwise and that is why the workplace is such a craphole. you pump up these idiot managers that think they are doing you a favor, they never are.
P.S. my attitude got me promoted all my life. I'm now a top level exec at a startup that is going stron in this economy. and I bring my workers doughnuts every friday out of my OWN POCKET. to say thank you to them for coming in to work and working for me.
any boss that does not do that is utterly worthless.
This is how we do it (Score:3, Interesting)
Where I work (at a software company), everyone is given a pen and paper to write their code on. Then, once a week each group (about 15 to a group) is given an hour of access to a computer that resides outside the mens room. When the time comes, we all scramble to the computer and fight over who gets to enter their code this week. This method definately saves a lot of time booting and shutting down because we only have one computer. It also really weeds out the people who aren't strong enough to code.
Re:Yes. (Score:3, Interesting)
Yep, I worked in a scumbag fast food operation that would tell their high-school kids to clock out and take a break for 30 minutes because it was getting slow, this to save the price of a large soda in labor expense. You can scream to whatever labor watchdog you want, but the easy thing to do is just walk away and find a real job.
Re:Yes. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Yes. (Score:3, Interesting)
Damn straight. As soon as I come in the door I clock in. Booting up the computer and going through the morning routine is part of the job, especially - if your work is like mine - when they have an energy saving policy that requires us to shut down the computer every night.
Cutting corners like this only causes resentment among the employees, which overall probably makes the whole shenanigan pointless. I wonder if these companies have calculated the cost of higher turnover rate because of these shady practices, or the lessened productivity by those who do harbor resentment. Is it still profitable then?
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Yes. (Score:3, Interesting)
What's worse is that, as you point out, employer practices can make the bootup time longer. Mounting home drives across a slow, busy network (since everyone's getting there at the same time, ya know.)
At school, I worked in the helpdesk. It took a good two minutes to log in to the old, crappy Window network. Of course, we were still there to answer questions, so we were obviously getting paid, but the point stands.
Re:Yes. (Score:5, Interesting)
When I was still an hourly employee we used an electronic timecard--you couldn't "clock in" until the computer was booted and ready. Usually took a really long time...30 minutes in total. You didn't even have the option until your machine was booted and workable...God forbid you have issues starting up.
This reminds me of the office episode... (Score:3, Interesting)
But seriously, this is a giant load of crap, and it surprises me that employers actually [try to] get away with this. Positions or careers that are paid on a job or comission basis - fine. I used to work commissioned sales way back and we were in the store usually an hour or two before it opened - not paid a dime. But for most other positions, this is laughable.
On both sides of the employee/employer table, I always say it's give and take. If one party nickle-dime's the other, it will always end up reciprocating. If an employer were to nickle dime me like this, then I don't touch my email, blackberry, or whatever after 5:00:00PM, no matter how dire. What goes around comes around.
The reality is there are companies who will get away with this. And in a loose job market where there's plenty of supply, especially at the lower end of the spectrum, people will get away with this, fact of life. Up here in Canada, the job markets are relatively tight, especially in western canada where there's massive shortages, so an employer would never bother trying a stunt like this. Even at the retail level, it's really tough to replace people, so this would never happen. If anything, the employees can take advantage of the employers. Local coffee shops are paying high school kids here $17/hr at Tim hortons. You can fairly easily find work for $20/hr. Advantages of a job-seekers market I guess. Come work up here, god knows we can use it. Entry level help-desk pays even $21-$23/hr at most of the major ISP's.
Re:Amazing (Score:3, Interesting)
So the tipping system induced you to steal from both your employer and your customers. Interesting.