Follow Slashdot blog updates by subscribing to our blog RSS feed

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Education Your Rights Online Technology

To Curb Truancy, Dallas Tries Electronic Monitoring 462

The New York Times is reporting that a school district in Texas is trying a new angle in combating truancy. Instead of punishing students with detention they are tagging them with electronic monitoring devices. "But the future of the Dallas program is uncertain. Mr. Pottinger's company, the Center for Criminal Justice Solutions, is seeking $365,000 from the county to expand the program beyond Bryan Adams. But the effort has met with political opposition after a state senator complained that ankle cuffs used in an earlier version were reminiscent of slave chains. Dave Leis, a spokesman for NovaTracker, which makes the system used in Dallas, said electronic monitoring did not have to be punitive. 'You can paint this thing as either Big Brother, or this is a device that connects you to a buddy who wants to keep you safe and help you graduate.'"
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

To Curb Truancy, Dallas Tries Electronic Monitoring

Comments Filter:
  • Really... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by shawb ( 16347 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:18PM (#23380318)

    You can paint this thing as either Big Brother, or this is a device that connects you to a buddy who wants to keep you safe and help you graduate.


    I wonder which of these two conclusions the students will come to.
  • Not big brother? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rossz ( 67331 ) <.ten.rekibkeeg. .ta. .ergo.> on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:20PM (#23380340) Journal
    That depends. If only students with a history of truancy are tagged, then I don't have a problem with this. However, as with all things handled by the government, they will eventually expand it to automatically tag all students, regardless of their attendance record.
  • Re:Really... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Toandeaf ( 1014715 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:20PM (#23380348)
    I'm just amazed that anyone can say that and not realize how Big Brother-ish they sound.
  • Jokes come true (Score:5, Insightful)

    by CogDissident ( 951207 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:20PM (#23380350)
    I always joked that highschool was like prison. Nothing to do (with our poor education budget) but to wait to get out after you've served your 4 years. Now its really going to be true, thats really very sad.
  • by RobertB-DC ( 622190 ) * on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:21PM (#23380366) Homepage Journal
    Keep in mind a couple of things:

    * The kids in the program were on the verge of being sent to the Texas Youth Commission, aka Juvenile Detention.

    * Once you're in the TYC, you're likely to be beaten, raped, and held indefinitely [washingtonpost.com].

    When the choice is between being treated *like* a criminal, versus learning to *be* a criminal in Texas highly successful Criminal Conversion System, I think it's pretty obvious why any judge would choose to give the kid an ankle shackle instead of condemning him to (eventual) death.

    Of course, the "choice" is mind-numbingly stupid. Now that the story of the TYC abuses has finally broken [capitolannex.com], maybe the next legislature will do something about the broken system that turns minor offenders into hardened criminals. Not likely, of course, because nobody ever got voted out of office for putting *too many* men, women, or children in jail.
  • Doublespeak? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Duncan Blackthorne ( 1095849 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:21PM (#23380370)
    Sounds like so much doublespeak [wikipedia.org] to me.
    What's next? Tattoos on the backs of the necks of the little snowflakes? Where are these kids parents, why aren't they getting involved and paying attention to what their kids are doing?
  • by wouter ( 103085 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:23PM (#23380418) Homepage
    It is Big Brother, but according to the article it is only limited to students who ended up at Truancy court. To choose between having an option to continue school life under supervision, or spend your days in juvenile detention, I might just take the first one...
  • Big Brother (Score:3, Insightful)

    by bsDaemon ( 87307 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:24PM (#23380428)
    If I had a big brother, I'm sure that he, too, would want to "keep [me] safe and help [me] graduate."

    However, I don't, and I did quite fine all by my self. The government can't even keep track of laptops, how are they supposed to keep track of kids?

    It's total bull, just like airport security, only more intrusive. Why do all these "tracking" programs get tested on school kids? Just to get them used to the idea so by the time they're adults, they don't know any better...

    It's shameful.
  • by jedidiah ( 1196 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:27PM (#23380504) Homepage
    If the student is a truant then WHO CARES.

    Give him a shovel and have him work for a living.

    Forcing an extended artifical childhood on people is highly unnatural and
    only leads to an obvious conflict between authority and instinct. If people
    don't want to go to school then don't force them. Schools should be places
    were those interested can get ahead, not some sort of prison. Treating schools
    as prisons and daycare just undermines their alleged goal.

    If you can't keep the truant interested than the school has failed to be relevant.
  • by Nerdposeur ( 910128 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:28PM (#23380510) Journal

    If only students with a history of truancy are tagged, then I don't have a problem with this.

    I was going to say that I have a problem with it no matter what, but on second thought, I think the question should go to the parents. Minors have limited rights, and if the parents want to monitor them using tools the state provides, in order to keep them in school, maybe that's OK. (Personally, if it were my kid, I would consider this a very desperate measure - it certainly doesn't foster mutual trust and respect.)

    On the other hand, if this is forced on students without parents' consent, then it's a big problem.

    Consider this: parents have a right to know where their kid is at all times; the school should only be concerned about that during school hours. When is the tracking turned off?

  • Re:Really... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MozeeToby ( 1163751 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:29PM (#23380518)
    As scary as programs like this are (and they are scary) we need to start thinking about when, not if, these kinds of things happen. At least I can see a giant transmitter strapped to my ankle. In 10 years it will be possible to pick up a box of microscopic RFID tags for relatively little cost. In 20 years it will probably be possible to create microscopic GPS systems that radio back their location.

    We know someone, somewhere will develope and sell this or similar technology and we need to know how we are going to answer back. Lobby congress to allow jaming technology? Doubtful that will happen. Create scanners so we can atleast know when we are being tracked? More likely, but only a partial solution.

    Hopefully someone smarter than me can think of a solution to what I think is an inevitable problem.
  • by Mateo_LeFou ( 859634 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:29PM (#23380530) Homepage
    heh.
    you haven't been to deep ellum recently, have you?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:30PM (#23380546)
    They have to start somewhere. If you look at the history of the US government over the past 100 years, this is exactly what you will see: small, seemingly harmless steps towards bigger and more powerful government that go unnoticed by the masses. Add up those 100 years of government expansion and today you've got a government that absolutely dwarfs the US government of only 100 years ago, both in revenue and power over the people.

    Totalitarianism comes one small step at a time, never in one giant sweep.
  • by Chris Acheson ( 263308 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:31PM (#23380560) Homepage
    Why is it okay to treat anyone like this, truant or not? Does the school own these kids? Do they not have the same rights as the rest of us?
  • by garett_spencley ( 193892 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:32PM (#23380570) Journal
    Actually these cuffs make perfect sense.

    While I support education in all it's forms, I fail to see how forcing someone by law to be somewhere involuntarily for 6 hours / day 5 days / week 39 weeks / year for about 12 years can not be considered a form of imprisonment.

    These cuffs sound like a natural progression of forced education. And of course only the children who resist will be subject to them. There's no need to impose more force on someone who choses to cooperate with their incarceration voluntarily.
  • by morgan_greywolf ( 835522 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:33PM (#23380590) Homepage Journal

    That depends. If only students with a history of truancy are tagged, then I don't have a problem with this. However, as with all things handled by the government, they will eventually expand it to automatically tag all students, regardless of their attendance record.
    Right. And only terrorists end up at Gitmo.
  • by binaryspiral ( 784263 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:35PM (#23380622)

    If the student is a truant then WHO CARES.

    Give him a shovel and have him work for a living.

    Forcing an extended artificial childhood on people is highly unnatural and
    only leads to an obvious conflict between authority and instinct. If people
    don't want to go to school then don't force them. Schools should be places
    were those interested can get ahead, not some sort of prison. Treating schools
    as prisons and daycare just undermines their alleged goal.

    If you can't keep the truant interested than the school has failed to be relevant.
    Someone mod the OP up... I couldn't agree with you more.

    If the truant students would stay out of class, my kids could get a decent education. But no, they force these disinterested, undisciplined kids in to an already over crowded class room - and nobody learns anything. The teacher is there just to make sure everyone stays alive.

    If they really want to scare these kids back into the class room - make them get a job from 8a-3p during school. After a few weeks of flipping burgers or shoveling cow shit - these kids might take school a little more seriously. And in the mean time they'll be paying taxes on their wages.

    Profit!
  • by StevenMaurer ( 115071 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:37PM (#23380662) Homepage
    ...which is what these kids actually need.

    If parents would actually PARENT, maybe we wouldn't need so much of a "Nanny" state. But until that happens, comparisons to 1984esque totalitarianism is absurd.
  • by LineGrunt ( 133002 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:39PM (#23380688)

    You can paint this thing as either Big Brother, or this is a device that connects you to a buddy who wants to keep you safe and help you graduate.
    The term "Big Brother" is so entrenched that people are completely missing the irony of this statement. "Big Brother" probably originated as that "buddy who wants to keep you safe" and then became the villain icon of 1984.
  • by Khyber ( 864651 ) <techkitsune@gmail.com> on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:42PM (#23380762) Homepage Journal
    If the fucker is truant, *I CARE* because I don't want some teenaged punk wandering the streets raising shit or breaking into my shit while I'm away at work and everyone else is at school.
  • by bsDaemon ( 87307 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:52PM (#23380910)
    That's what happens when cautionary tales become cultural cliches... I guess people have just cried wolf [wikipedia.org] too many times...
  • Re:Really... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by moosesocks ( 264553 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:53PM (#23380930) Homepage
    RTFA. This actually is analogous to house-arrest, and would only be used under similar circumstances.

    The students in the program were given the option of either submitting to GPS monitoring, or being placed in Juvenile Detention.

    Whether or not you agree with the concept of house arrest, this seems like a logical extension of that concept to troubled youths.

    Personally, I think this seems to have a much greater possibility of actually working than sticking all of the troubled students together in a prison-like environment.

    At the very least, it's better than any of the other alternatives on the table.
  • by Alzheimers ( 467217 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:54PM (#23380952)
    Your right to screw up ends at my right to not have to subsidize your screw ups.
  • by maxume ( 22995 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @01:55PM (#23380960)
    Guess what he is going to do once he drops out.
  • by TheSpoom ( 715771 ) * <slashdot@@@uberm00...net> on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:03PM (#23381088) Homepage Journal
    So if the person is breaking into stuff, arrest them. If they're not, who cares? You can't preemptively assume behaviors in people and punish them for these behaviors.
  • Re:I hope... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by maxume ( 22995 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:10PM (#23381196)
    How is the information on the map any greater a risk than allowing a child to go outside without constant supervision? That's something 10 year old kids used to get to do, and there weren't more abductions when I was a kid (a short 20 years ago) than there are now.

    As for the parent/family member part, they usually have a decent idea where their kids live, so they don't need a map to find them.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:18PM (#23381342)
    It puzzles me how many people still don't grasp the costs of an uneducated public. Public education isn't about getting ahead; it is about staying afloat.

    It might seem hard for some to believe, but society really is better off if that minimum wage landscaper knows how to read and even how to type. It helps a lot when the 7-11 clerk has a basic understanding of economics. It helps if the lady changing the sheets at the local hotel knows algebra. It helps when the lawn mower mechanic knows something about world history.

    There are some large scale issues that require a cooperative effort on a very large scale. Sure, bright, educated people can take the lead on most of these issues. But society will advance much quicker if the average man on the street can grasp the implications of the problem and the possible solutions. If smart people could spend more time thinking up solutions and less time explaining to the "dumb" people why and how to implement those solutions, society could advance more quickly. "Go fill out an application" is much more efficient than "Let me drive you over and fill out an application for you."

    Imagine if a postal worker, or say a patent clerk, was capable of applying their education to solve difficult problems. What if a truck driver had enough education to streamline their operations and reduce fuel consumption? Or what if they used their elementary physics education and their hours on the road to conceive new ideas for the ball bearings in their 18 wheels?

    Would that help somebody besides themselves?
  • by Chas ( 5144 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:23PM (#23381422) Homepage Journal
    School is NOT about education. It is simply jail/daycare for kids.
  • Re:Really... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Aranykai ( 1053846 ) <slgonser AT gmail DOT com> on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:26PM (#23381462)
    Mod parent up. He or she seems to be the only one who actually read the article.

    This is an option, its when truancy gets to the point that the student is going to be taken to juvenile detention. I would much rather see the kids restricted to their own home and school rather than sent to kiddy jail. The environment there is NOT going to help them much. If anything, its going to further warp their view of authority and government and they will be worse coming out than they were going in.

    As someone born, raised, and schooled in Dallas, I'm 100% supportive of this program.
  • by Smidge204 ( 605297 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:29PM (#23381520) Journal
    I agree on everything in your post except the part about letting them be screw-ups.

    There is certainly educational value in "taking your lumps" as you put it, however I think this type of learning is more appropriate for older age groups. For example, skipping class has potential consequences potentially decades away. By the time they figure out they've screwed up, it's too late to do anything about it. In the worst case, their "screw up" turns into a burden on society later on. As the saying goes, spanking your kid when he's four will save the penal system from doing it when he's forty.

    In this specific case, truancy, I feel it's either school or GED + vocational training. School or job, in other words. Either way they're a lot less likely to end up being useless later in life.
    =Smidge=
  • I call BS (Score:4, Insightful)

    by dave562 ( 969951 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:30PM (#23381532) Journal
    They don't want to help you graduate... they want to get paid. Schools lose money when students don't show up. The whole program is simple math. They are planning on spend X amount of money on preventative programs in hopes of securing Y amount of dollars per student kept in school. They just need to make sure that X is less than Y and I'm sure that there are all sorts of studies that have been done by the vendor to prove that their device will reduce truancy by Z percent and that Z percent is high enough so that X will be less than Y.
  • by gfxguy ( 98788 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:35PM (#23381614)

    Totalitarianism comes one small step at a time, never in one giant sweep.


    Sure it does, just not in this case.

    The problem is the left is blaming the right, and the right is blaming the left... the truth is that it happens at both extreme ends of the spectrum, and each side allows little bits at a time that jive with their perspective.

    Of course, anyone that wants the government to stop and go back to it's size and scope from 100 years ago is labeled "lunatic fringe" and detractors don't even have to counter all the valid arguments, they just have to call you "crazy" to marginalize your campaign...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:40PM (#23381688)
    would be to have all publicly elected officials wear these things as a condition of holding the office, followed by forensic analysis of their finances during and for 10 years after their tenure ends ;-)
  • by tom's a-cold ( 253195 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:41PM (#23381696) Homepage
    This is typical of the conservative punitive mind-set. It's also typical of people who don't learn: if they're doing something that doesn't work, their solution is to do it more and harder.

    I am the parent of a teenager who, if we lived in Texas, might be subjected to this idiocy. The likely outcome if it were applied to her would be more resistance to authority, more risky behavior and a greater likelihood of catastrophic consequences, including inappropriate escalation of repression by dim-witted authorities.

    Fortunately we live in a less pig-ignorant part of the country, so we were able to make other arrangements. They involved giving her more personal responsibility rather than imposing more restrictions and privacy invasions. For her this solution has worked. Another thing to keep in mind is that kids are different and what's medicine for one could well be poison for another. I don't trust a committee of state employees to be able to make this kind of assessment, and I trust them even less to make timely corrections if the approach isn't working.

    What's lacking in all layers of the US government is adherence to the principle that people should be left alone unless they are doing something violent or predatory. Micromanagement like this is a symptom of deep pathology on the part of those doing the micro-managing. These idiots should be driven out of office and humiliated.

  • Re:Really... (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:52PM (#23381890)
    Truancy != troubled students.

    Some of us kids just didn't like going to class. It's not a new concept.
  • by eck011219 ( 851729 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:53PM (#23381910)
    Why? This isn't a requirement. It's an option equivalent to juvenile detention. As I see it, it gives a kid a choice between juvie and doing what they're supposed to be doing.

    TFA clearly states that this is being used for kids with very serious truancy problems. It's not for some kid who's late a couple times. And if the kid prefers to wear the transmitter and go to school, great. And if not, he is detained under more traditional circumstances. At no time is the school system sneaking up on kids and tagging their ears -- this is a choice given to the kid and his family.

    In theory, I agree with others around here that if it gets to this level, the parents relinquished control at some point. But be that as it may, until the kids are 16 they're not only the parents' responsibility, but the community's as well. You may take issue with the laws surrounding that issue, but that's not the point. The point is to make the child comply with existing attendance laws, and this seems to me to be a better way than locking them up with other kids who have screwed up their lives in whatever widely varying ways.
  • by celle ( 906675 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:55PM (#23381954)
    Golly gee, what are we teaching these kids? Think about it and you won't have to wonder why the world will be going downhill into the next generation. They learn by example and we're sure giving them one. By the way, kids do have full rights, given at birth by the constitution, just because we don't acknowledge it doesn't make it true. Just more proof that we're hypocrites and are happy to teach it to the youngest of us.
  • by arminw ( 717974 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @02:59PM (#23382010)
    .....If someone wants to be a complete screw-up, then it is a requirement of a free society that we let them be a screw-up.....

    That would only work if society were willing to let them reap what they sow. It seems that the do-gooders in this world will work very hard to prevent this. These kids can screw up and then when the chickens come home to roost, when the seeds of their foolishness begin to sprout, there are those who want to force the society, ie. the taxpayers, to bail the miscreants out of their self made predicaments.

    It used to be that people were more or less responsible for their own actions, but nowadays many will blame everyone and everything but themselves for their troubles. If possible they will look for someone to sue or to the government, that is the tax payers to help them out of the holes they have dug for themselves.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:08PM (#23382156)
    Right. Since the government gets held accountable for allowing children to choose to be screw-ups, it's very natural to see this kind of response from them. They're doing everything in their power to satisfy the public's demand that the government do the parenting.

    And if the government is going to be held responsible for the welfare of the children, and if the government is later responsible for supporting those children when they become unemployed adults, then they really ought to be permitted to use this kind of method to help. After all, being responsible for all of the children in the nation is a big task. They need some sort of tool for identifying, tracking, and measuring the status of each one.

    Of course, if this is not the sort of thing you want the government doing, then put the responsibility back on the parents. Don't make "no child left behind" the issue that decides your vote. Don't vote for candidates who support widespread welfare programs. Because this is the natural result of that sort of thinking.
  • Re:Really... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by atraintocry ( 1183485 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:10PM (#23382196)
    Who's to say that they won't be way more likely to hand this out as a sentence than something like community service? Once the public is OK with it, and it seems harmless enough, they'll probably be passing the trackers out like candy.
  • Re:Jokes come true (Score:5, Insightful)

    by AnotherBlackHat ( 265897 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:12PM (#23382224) Homepage


    I always joked that highschool was like prison.


    Don't be silly, prison is nothing like school;
    In prison, you don't have to ask permission to use the toilet.
    In prison, you have free time when you can think.
    In prison, you can get time off for good behavior. If you do well in school, they give you extra work.
    If they make you work in prison, they have to pay you.
    If you escape from prison, the law comes after you. If you escape from school, the law comes after your family.
    If prisoners get into fights, the guards separate them.
    There are organizations dedicated to monitoring conditions in prisons, and keeping them from being inhumane.

  • Re:Really... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Locus Mote ( 307298 ) <gregory DOT a DOT lee AT gmail DOT com> on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:17PM (#23382310) Homepage
    Slavery is freedom from distraction. A still tongue makes a happy life.

    If I lived in that school district and they tried to put one of those Lo-Jack things on my kid, I would wield the ACLU and smite the school district with them while shouting "SMITE" (Bard's Tale fans rejoice!)

    Do they have any idea what this sort of douche-baggery would do to someone psychologically? They put electronic tethers on convicts for crying out loud. These are OUR CHILDREN! Maybe there is a reason that children are fleeing our public schools in record numbers... and maybe that reason should be looked for somewhere other than the children!
  • Fuck School Kids (Score:2, Insightful)

    by CranberryKing ( 776846 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:19PM (#23382344)
    Wish I had those years back instead of wasting them in a 'public education/indoctrination institution'. I'm serious. My advice to any child is if you don't want to be there, drop out. It's mostly a waste of time. I cannot honestly point to anything I use today in life/career that I learned in school. Not a one. All you need now is an Internet connection and a library card. I'm convinced that if I had children I could have them well versed in the Greek classics and Latin by 11 years old. We are raising our children to be brainless machines & criminals.
  • by Shivetya ( 243324 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:23PM (#23382426) Homepage Journal
    because politicians are more than willing to make us pay for them later in life. You know the type, never a good job, poor health, usually a few addictions that get their money, and worse - children who repeat the cycle

    I think school was much better when the fear of punishment (the oppressive state) did very well in encouraging you to behave. The simple fact is, some of these people need to be whacked up side the head. They need a "big brother" though the government isn't the best option.

    Here is the question, do you want to pay to keep them from screwing up in the first place or pay for them for the rest of their lives.

    and all because we put more value on their "rights" than the rights of the society that has to tolerate and pay for them
  • by WinPimp2K ( 301497 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:31PM (#23382556)
    "the costs of an uneducated public"

    is immense and you have the right of it in pointing out that a failure to have a sufficient portion of a society educated is going to result in a non-sustainable society.

    BUT:
    As others have pointed out, one of the costs of forcing the "at risk" (PC speak for "lost cause") kids into the regular classroom is the downward pressure they will exert (via disruptive behavior etc) of the marginal kids (the one's who really are "at risk") as well as those who might excell, but instead experience immense "peer" pressure (including violence) to underperform. And that is just the direct negative influence. The extra time and resources required from the teachers to try and simply maintain order and make minimal test scores means neglect of the more talented students.

    So, I'd go one better than DISD and put those truant kids that accept the tracking device in separate classes - at a different location. This would help the beancounters recognize the real costs of dealing with the most disruptive "students" and allow the regular teachers some room to work with the students that are not actively hostile to learning.

    The lessons for the truants could be considerably simpler with the consequences for both failure and sucess more immediately apparent. I don't know what sort of consequences should be involved (though I have a gut feeling electric shocks and candy bars would not get the desired result), but kids who ditch school a lot are not going to be big on the concept of deferred gratification and expecting otherwise is foolish.

  • by Hatta ( 162192 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:46PM (#23382766) Journal
    Children are a somewhat different case because, in theory, they don't have all of the information that they need to make effective decisions about their future.

    Neither do adults.

    For children you have three paths. The first is to help them realize that cooperating with those around them and being productive is the most effective long-term strategy for pursuing their happiness. The second is to convince them that the entire world is a bunch of screw-ups that are only vaguely kept in order through threat of violence. The third is to let them screw up and take their lumps.

    You have the same three paths for adults.

    Of the three, the second is actually the one most likely to result in violent, oppressive, and harmful adults.

    Funny that it's also the closest to the truth.
  • by Hatta ( 162192 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:48PM (#23382802) Journal
    For example, skipping class has potential consequences potentially decades away.

    Potentially, but in reality almost never. And if there are consequences to it, they are artificially inflated by those in authority, just to teach a kid that obeying orders is the most important thing.
  • by cdrguru ( 88047 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @03:56PM (#23382912) Homepage
    Graduating High School is today primarily what graduating college used to be. It is an exercise in proving that you have the dilligence to accomplish a task. Does it take any extraordinary talents to do so? No, but it takes that dilligence. If you don't have it, expect to be a burger flipper for life because even with a GED you will have proven that you lack the determination, dilligence and maturity to accomplish goals that are set before you. Hence, you are not qualified for most jobs that require determination, dilligence and maturity.

    You are, however, highly qualified to flip burgers.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 12, 2008 @04:13PM (#23383134)

    Um, no. That's just wrong. We institutionalize screw ups all the time.

    The screw up only has a right to be a screw up until it begins to effect someone else. Then they're screwing up society at which point society has a right to do something about it.
    Please look everyone. This is what fascism looks like.

    It might not have the racism or militarism of the Nazi flavor of fascism, nor the more corporate efficiency of Mussulini's flavor. But, the appeal that society is more important than the individual is a strong fascist tennet.
  • Re:Really... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by wook ( 114159 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @04:14PM (#23383148)
    Why don't we try this:

    If the kids don't want to go to school and the parents aren't able to make them go to school...

    Then they don't effing go to school.

    We wouldn't have to worry with NCLB, because the kids in school would either a) want to be there or b) actually have parents who are capable of parenting. Everybody there will be interested (of their own accord or because their parents demand it) in doing the school work and furthering their education instead of bringing the class to a halt so they don't get "left behind"...

  • Re:Really... (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Chris Acheson ( 263308 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @04:19PM (#23383210) Homepage
    So you don't have a problem with the fact that kids guilty of nothing other than spending their own free time as they see fit are eligible for kiddie prison in the first place?
  • Re:Really... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by DarkOx ( 621550 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @04:23PM (#23383270) Journal
    Well by then our soap and ballot boxes would have failed and we will be justified in using the ammo box.
  • by Omestes ( 471991 ) <omestes.gmail@com> on Monday May 12, 2008 @04:24PM (#23383298) Homepage Journal
    and all because we put more value on their "rights" than the rights of the society that has to tolerate and pay for them

    First off, I do agree that our school system has gotten weak, and that we don't enforce discipline. Discipline, btw, is the most importance concept in any modern debate involving education. Discipline, means responsibility and consequences, or course, both of which are lessons we are sorely lacking.

    When I was in the school system (in the early 90s) far more time was spent telling me that Mexicans and Black people were people too, and that I should respect them, than teaching me math or reading skills (much less "critical thinking" skills), to me this was an unconscionable crime, with the latter the former is obvious, with the former your nothing more than a tolerant, but illiterate, imbecile.

    I take affront, though, at your last line. The rights of individuals always trump society, unless those rights conflict with the rights of other individuals. Society, as such, has no rights, it is merely a collective of individuals. Holding society above individuals is the basis of all tyrannies and atrocities.

    Just a little nit-pick.
  • by LilGuy ( 150110 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @04:41PM (#23383588)
    This is typical of a society where your options for living a 'successful' life are focused like a laser beam down a specific path. Why must you burn through primary, secondary, and tertiary education at light speed? Because we need to produce worker-bees to fill the jobs in order to buy up all the crap we import. There are no other options for success in America. You may get lucky and be one of the few who drop out and find their own way into the path that everyone else had to be drilled into, but you're still in the same boat. Everyone else is homeless or living in poverty.

    Many other countries are not like this. Many offer free educations and do not presume to be able to make your choices for you in life. Many require work places to give you a certain amount of vacation, sick days, and free time. Many do not require 50+ hour workweeks with little to no vacation time and breakneck productivity. It's more of a problem with how America works than with how the average person functions if you ask me.
  • Amazing (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dogzilla ( 83896 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @04:43PM (#23383612) Homepage
    Has anyone read Corey Doctorow's "Little Brother"? It not only describes this situation, but also the most likely response to it.

    Anyone who thinks this is a good idea is not only an idiot, but is also the vilest danger to the American way of life I can imagine. First it's criminals. Then it's truant kids. Then it's all kids in school - to protect against child abuse you know. Then it's everyone, and objection to the policy is immediate grounds for suspicion ("Why are you complaining if you've got nothing to hide?").

    Funny thing is, when we try to hold our government or corporations or even school boards up to the same transparency, they immediately throw hissy fits and start claiming executive privilege and "losing" emails. Why are they complaining if they have nothing to hide?
  • by iamacat ( 583406 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @04:48PM (#23383674)

    Children are a somewhat different case because, in theory, they don't have all of the information that they need to make effective decisions about their future.
    And this is why parents/legal guardians are entrusted with a right to override ineffective decisions that children might otherwise make about their future. Although a particular parent can be unfortunately abusive or stupid (mine fell into the later category), this is still better than an abusive and stupid government (like my birth country) having total control over ALL the young minds.

    Although there are some useful things to be learned in school, most skills beyond basic reading can be easily learned when one feels the need. I won a national competition in math, but now I remember zilch from high school algebra. I frequently come to work late and sometimes make silly excuses when I miss a meeting, yet I am one of the most productive employees in the team.

    So if my daughter occasionally skips classes I don't see it as a grave offense punishable by making her wear a GPS tracking bracelets like convicted felons on probation. I will certainly talk to her and may cut off her entertainment activities for a time, but I will rather move out of the country than allow government to treat her like a criminal. If she just skips a couple of classes per month, I will just chuck it off to her being a kid.
  • Re:Really... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dlcarrol ( 712729 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @05:09PM (#23383942)
    I'm the guy that doesn't even think Mr. Wanna B. Truant should have to go to school if he doesn't care to do so (subject to parental authority).

    That said, what is the inherent advantage of putting an obvious I-don't-want-to-be-here in a class "dragging everyone else down" (generality used on purpose, relax)? I mean, really?

    I only see three options

    1. He's self-taught way ahead of the class. Not likely, but possible. So why should he be there?

    2. He hates everything about stoopid skool and would rather play video games Does anyone really believe that forcing him to get a diploma does anything except drain resources from the "education system" and water down the value of a diploma? (I'm assuming that there's some value left beyond becoming-questionable "getting into college")

    3. Likened to #1, he's an entrepreneur and can make his living already Even if he's dealing drugs, why does the educational S.S. have to be involved?

    These are serious questions

  • Re:Jokes come true (Score:3, Insightful)

    by kthejoker ( 931838 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @05:22PM (#23384100)
    If prison only lasted 8 hours a day 5 days a week with a 3 month vacation every year, your point might be valid.
  • by couchslug ( 175151 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @07:15PM (#23385478)
    "I feel it's either school or GED + vocational training"

    Which is why Vocational Education is often treated as a dumping ground...

    Don't wonder why the US has a shortage of SKILLED workers such as pipe welders (starting wage often is $20/hr plus per diem!) when physical labor is scorned. Let the droputs who want to VOLUNTEER go to vocational school, but don't inflict losers on the rest of the students who want to learn. It wastes their classmates and instructors time.
  • by Smidge204 ( 605297 ) on Monday May 12, 2008 @08:01PM (#23385894) Journal
    I'm sure you can say that only with the benefit of hindsight. As I said in a reply a bit further down, when it comes to a basic level of education - either scholastic or practical - there is essentially nothing to lose.

    College is another matter. I will agree that college is not for everyone, and may actually sacrifice certain options. However, since it's already difficult (but not impossible) to get a decent job before you're 18 in most places, there really is little harm in staying in school. If anything it just may keep you off the streets.
    =Smidge=
  • by misanthrope101 ( 253915 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2008 @03:07AM (#23388506)
    You can't MAKE teenagers do much. You can cajole, bribe, etc but ultimately it's the same problem you face as a boss at work--you're still trying to manipulate someone into doing something they don't want to do. Sure, parents love to take credit when one of their kids is smart and successful, but we all know families where one kid is smart and the other is a pain in the butt. If it all came down to parenting, you wouldn't have such a wide divergence in the same family.

    I'm lucky that my kids are sane and are doing well in school, but I'm aware that it is partly luck. I've known parents who thought things were okay, and felt that this was to their credit, only to find later that their 8th grader was part of a prostitution ring at school. Suddenly they felt that their own efforts were a little less of a factor, and all of a sudden it was "the culture," etc. We all want to take credit when things go well.

Heisenberg may have been here.

Working...