Police Busted When Tracking Device Found On Car 367
uh oh notes a story from Down Under where a police investigation came to a screeching halt as a man being investigated by the police found tracking devices in two of his cars, ripped them out, and listed them on an auction site. "Ralph Williams, of Cromwell, said he found the devices last week in his daughter's car, which he uses, and in his flatmate's car after the cars were seized by police and taken away for investigation."
Good going from the PR dept. (Score:5, Funny)
A Trade Me spokesman said the listing was removed yesterday afternoon "at the request of the New Zealand Police".
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Good going from the PR dept. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Good going from the PR dept. (Score:4, Informative)
"A Cromwell man who found police surveillance gear in two cars they returned to him has been arrested for theft of property. [tvnz.co.nz]".
Can you legally sell them (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Can you legally sell them (Score:5, Funny)
Therefore, all the man has to do to be in the right is provide the police with 10% of the proceeds from the sale.
Re:Can you legally sell them (Score:5, Funny)
We the people of the United States
Re:Can you legally sell them (Score:4, Insightful)
This is false. If a meter wench put clamps on your wheels, they do not then automatically belong to you. And if someone welds a can of caltraps under the rear bumper of your car (to be shook loose at random), you can not be held responsible for accidents that's caused by them.
And no, if a burglar drops his wallet with $1,000 on your floor, that doesn't make the money yours. He may be guilty of a crime, but that doesn't give you any rights to what's not yours. Crime must not pay, neither for the perpetrator nor the victim (when it becomes profitable to be a victim, people will seek to become one, which increases crime instead of lowering it).
Transference of ownership occurs when both parties agree to it. It's not enough that one person thinks it's an ownership transfer.
What this guy did was theft. The police might or might not have broken a law by placing the devices on his car, but that's irrelevant to the ownership of the devices.
Re:Can you legally sell them (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course, now this guy has just pissed on the police...even if he weasels out of whatever he's guilty of, they will bust this guy's balls for years to come.
Re:Can you legally sell them (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Can you legally sell them (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Can you legally sell them (Score:5, Interesting)
If a meter wench put clamps on your wheels, they do not then automatically belong to you.
No shit, Sherlock. Did the big 'Property of The City' on it clue you in there? There's a reason they put that on there, you know.
He found unlabeled boxes attached to his car. He called the police, he asked if the boxes were theirs. They were not. (At least, according to the police, and, obviously, they'd know.)
And if someone welds a can of caltraps under the rear bumper of your car (to be shook loose at random), you can not be held responsible for accidents that's caused by them.
You can't be held responsible for something you had no cause to know about, but that's entirely unrelated to whether or not it's your property. If they stole a box of nails out of your front seat and stuck them under your bumper, or just unattached your bumper and made it fall off, you aren't liable either. (Assuming the facts are not in question.)
And no, if a burglar drops his wallet with $1,000 on your floor, that doesn't make the money yours. He may be guilty of a crime, but that doesn't give you any rights to what's not yours.
Which is why I made the distinction between 'attached' and not attached. Sometimes things fall on or in your property. That does not make them yours. (Unless they are vegetation, which oddly enough is yours in most places.)
And sometimes things are left on your property, for you, and they are in fact yours.
It's all what a reasonable person would think. A reasonable person assumes a wallet laying on the ground is not for him (Even in his own house), whereas a reasonable person would assume an unlabeled envelope taped to his door full of cash is for him, even if he can think of no reason why this would be.(1) However, sitting in his front lawn, nope, not for him.
Likewise, if you're parked in a parking lot and walk up and see a cooler full of soda sitting on your car, it's reasonable to assume some ass is just using your car as a table and that is not, in fact, a gift.
And if you walk out and see something stuck under your wipers?(2) That is pretty clearly someone leaving you something on purpose.
In other words, while something simply being on your property doesn't make it yours (And I didn't say it did.), it doesn't mean it's not yours. Transfer of ownership can be implied by leaving something for someone.
It happens all the time with delivery people, or people leaving things in mailboxes. (According to postal regulations, things that enter the postal system are property of the recipient.) Or, like I said, things stuck under wipers.
He checked to see if the police had left it, which would be the only people that reasonable would attach things to his car not as a gift, and it wasn't them.
Now, if someone else shows up and claims it's theirs and the left it attached to his car by accident, he might be in trouble, but as it pretty obviously is the police's, only they would have grounds for complaint. And they can't because they said it wasn't theirs, leaving the obvious implication it was his.
1) Well, it might be on the wrong house, but that doesn't really apply to this case.
2) And that raises an interesting question. Are you honestly asserting that people can't legally claim ownership of pieces of paper stuck under their wipers? And before you say 'Paper is valueless', let's postulate it is an 85 dollar concert ticket.
Re:Can you legally sell them (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Strangely enough, in the American system, the courts do. Many laws are based around what a "reasonable" person would do with the interpretation of reasonable being left up to the courts. It's impossible to write laws that take into account all possible situations. That's why we have a judicial system which as the job of interpreting the laws and applying them to real life situations.
Re:Can you legally sell them (Score:5, Insightful)
And the papers, because they'll want to cover the argument between the military guy with the flack-jacket and the police guy with the red face.
Re:Can you legally sell them (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Can you legally sell them (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Can you legally sell them (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, it's pretty stupid. Why don't you stop wasting your time and money impounding their equipment and just let them grow? It's completely harmless.
Re:Can you legally sell them (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Can you legally sell them (Score:5, Funny)
OK, I'm never going to Germany.
I could easily be accused of being a rapist, since I "own" certain "raping tools", i.e. a penis.
And I carry it with me all the fscking time.
Re:Can you legally sell them (Score:5, Funny)
FEMALE INTERVIEWER: So, General Reinwald, what things are you going to teach these young boys when they visit your base?
GENERAL REINWALD: We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, archery, and shooting.
FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible, isn't it?
GENERAL REINWALD: I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the rifle range.
FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?
GENERAL REINWALD: I don't see how. We will be teaching them proper rifle discipline before they even touch a firearm.
FEMALE INTERVIEWER: But you're equipping them to become violent killers.
GENERAL REINWALD: Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?
The radio went silent and the interview ended. You gotta love the Marines!
-- bash.org [bash.org]
Re:Can you legally sell them (Score:5, Insightful)
Assuming the police are responsible though, and they aren't admitting it is theirs, I'd imagine it is fair game. They can hardly complain about him selling their property if they deny it belongs to them.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I've just read a chapter on accessio (Wikipedia link) [wikipedia.org] in a book I have. That is the principle (originally of Roman law) by which the owner of a greater thing (e.g.: a car) can derive possession and possible ownership of a smaller thing (e.g.: a tracking device) that has been attached to that greater thing. This would occur if a house (lesser) was built on a piece of land (greater), or something was written on, painted or stuck to another object such as a parchment, statue, garment or building. Note that t
Re:Can you legally sell them (Score:5, Funny)
I would've attached them to a police car, though. Or a public bus. Or some kid's tricycle.
Re:Can you legally sell them (Score:5, Funny)
Or flush it down a fast intercity train's toilet in a waterproof bag. Watch them try to chase it at 120 mph.
-b.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Sue the police? (Score:2)
And what kind of law requires a warrent to do something, except when the police are claiming they are in a hurry and don't need a warrent if they think the judge will be on their side? Sounds like their judges have balls even smaller than those of American judges when it comes to stricking down bad laws.
I bet 90% of the time, the police intend to be in a hurry, and don't even consider asking for the warrent.
Re:Sue the police? (Score:5, Informative)
You do realize that the US has very similar rules of evidence, right? That whole 'exigent circumstances' thing? There are similar rules for FISA wiretaps, even before this whole NSA scandal thing, in that DHS could have tapped someone's phone then gone and gotten a warrent retrospectively.
It's more limited than the scope of this law seems to be, but the idea is by no means absent from the US legal system.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
" You being a Canadian and all it is really none of your business."
Why didn't you say the same about Iran and Saddam Huessein? After all, you being an American and all it is really none of your business.
Can you say "I am a hypocrite?" Truth hurts, doesn't it, hypocrite ...
Fact is that bad US economic policy (the stock and housing bubbles) threatens global security, and that Bush is the #1 threat to world peace. Not the leaders of Iran or Iraq or North Korea.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
FFS, read what the original post was about. It was some jerk-off saying that nobody should comment on Bush's leadership if they weren't American citizens.
Also, the US did NOT have a mandate from the UN. Quite the contrary.So go f*ck yourself back. Oh, sorry, you already did. fortunately, China and Japan won't fund your Iran ambitions ... http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&s i d=aNgW4Fu_8.tI&refer=home [bloomberg.com]
Nobody asked you to go to Iraq - quite the contrary, world opinion was that sanction
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
There was a time when a lot of Americans figured that we should mind our own damn business. No more -- perhaps regretably. Back then I'd have agreed with you I think.
As long as George the Clueless, Dick Cheney and the 49 mental midgets in the senate who back those two clowns 98% of the time think it is perfectly OK to mind other country's business, we Americans really shouldn't complain about foreigners expressing a bit of distaste f
Re: (Score:2)
That's what "Police Psychics" are for. To give them an excuse to follow up leads they get from illegally gathered evidence.
At least, that's what my scam would be if I were taking money from taxpayers under the pretense of spooky mystical crime-solving powers. I see no reason that no one else would've thought of such an obvious (and "plausibly deniable") scam.
Re: (Score:2)
"Police psychics" won't work in jurisdictions where its illegal to engage in fortune telling, etc. There's a guy who was conning one of my aunts, claiming he had worked as a psychic for the Toronto Police Department. I pointed out to her that it was illegal, and he was a liar: [canlii.org]
Re:Sue the police? (Score:4, Funny)
So, if you legitimately practice witchcraft, that's ok? Looks like the sort of law that would need a bit more fleshing out.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Sue the police? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sometimes, the good guys need to break the rules in order to do the right thing. This
doesn't mean that disrespect for the rules in general should be ensrined into the law
or SOP. If the situation is really serious enough that you need to ignore the usual
rules then you need to be prepared to take any of the consequences for breaking them.
This is especially true for anyone that is supposed to be "setting an example".
If you are a cop and aren't willing to take the consequences for breaking the rules,
then it's pretty obvious that the situation doesn't warrant breaking them. Being too
lazy to get a judge's signature is not a good excuse. Writting the law so that cops
can be lazy as a matter of routine is not good.
This is the part of "being Dirty Harry" that tends to get missed.
Re: (Score:2)
If McCain endorsed torture, then he's worthless. Torture is never justified - it's a horrible abuse and not even reliable.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Sometimes, the good guys need to break the rules in order to do the right thing.
The problem with that statement is that the "bad guys" think they're the "good guys", and will do the same thing.
I don't exactly know which statement you're talking about McCain and torture... but I guess I liked it better when he was saying (to paraphrase) that "we don't torture because we don't want our guys to be tortured." That was a few years ago, and he's become more wishy-washy since then.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's no so much that the bad guys think they're good that's the problem. It's that this is how good guys become bad guys.
Re:Sue the police? (Score:4, Funny)
You'll have to be more specific I'm afraid, I still can't tell which party that is.
Re:Sue the police? (Score:5, Insightful)
"but what about smaller areas where a warrant at 3am means having to wrest an old man out of bed?"
Then you wake them up. Or you do your job properly, and plan better, so you don't have to go and bother someone at 3am.
Re:Sue the police? (Score:4, Interesting)
Why sell them? Then you admit they were there... (Score:5, Insightful)
Now if you want to get really funny, leave them powered up and transmitting on aforementioned backroad for a few minutes, make sure they get at least one location transmission off, and then beat the crap out of them.
Re:Why sell them? Then you admit they were there.. (Score:2)
Re:Why sell them? Then you admit they were there.. (Score:5, Funny)
Police:Dear god, he is in the building 24/7 and yet we haven't seen him. He must be an invisible, cop hating machine that requires no food or water! Lets not fuck with him!
Re:Why sell them? Then you admit they were there.. (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Since I'm currently a wee bit pissed at McDonalds, I'd tack it to their trucks and let them explain to the cops why such a highly suspicious guy like me spends so much time driving to and from their depots.
A city bus! (Score:3, Funny)
I also like the idea of driving to the mall and putting them on someone else's car, as well as putting them on a neighbor's car, which might never get found since the car would keep returning "home".
Re:Why sell them? Then you admit they were there.. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Why sell them? Then you admit they were there.. (Score:5, Funny)
Would love to see the police phone bill after that ^_^
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Would love to see the police phone bill after that ^_^
--
If the device is not subscribed to roaming service, it could be a waste of postage.
I think it would be much more fun to wrap the GPS antenna in foil so it can't give the location. Then put it in a backpack and spend a few hours shopping near police parking and impound lots. Unwrap the antenna for a few minutes at each location before catching the city bus.
you have to RTFA .... (Score:2)
Re:Why sell them? Then you admit they were there.. (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
They expect you to be where the tracker says you are, so keep them in the car. When it comes time to engage in some activity of questionable legality, take it out. Maybe have a friend carry it in the opposite direction. When you are done, put it back in your car.
This could turn out to be the best alibi you could have.
OTOH, if you aren't doing anything worthy of suspicion, you can really have some
fun with the cops.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
From Google Maps;
"We could not calculate driving directions between New Zealand and Dallas Texas."
Maybe Mapquest could do better..
Two Words: Helium Balloons... (Score:5, Funny)
He should have attached the devices to helium balloons and set them aloft.
Re:Two Words: Helium Balloons... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Two Words: Helium Balloons... (Score:5, Interesting)
2) Transfer devices to their vehicles.
3) CALL POLITICIAN AND JOURNALIST and tell them the cops have their cars bugged.
4) Enjoy the subsequent stories of Police Corruption in the newspaper.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Might even be a spit-take in the police station.
they will become mandatory sometime too (Score:2)
I believe that at some point in the future tracking devices are going to be mandatory and embedded in all vehicles. This will probably be based on some security or safety concern, which may even be imaginary. Another one reason to be car-free.
Re: (Score:2)
And that's fine, if the people agree to such laws being passed, and so long as it does not interfere with their constitution. Of course driving is not a right, no one seems to realize that it is a privilege that comes with responsibilities.
Going down that road covertly is just going to create a lot of hate towards their government.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
- We only cover your car if you drive according to the law. Three years ago you were going 2mph above the speed limit, hence you invalidated your policy and we are not obliged to pay.
- Why didn't you notify me then?
- According to the policy, we're not obliged to do that either.
- Are you obliged to do anything?
- Maybe, but we're not obliged to answer that question.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:they will become mandatory sometime too (Score:5, Insightful)
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." --attributed to Benjamin Franklin
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:they will become mandatory sometime too (Score:5, Funny)
Legality? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Even if you were charged, it'd be hard to get a jury t
Re:Legality? (Score:5, Funny)
Or more likely, based on the article: "Not Property of New Zealand Police, we don't even know about it. Removal prohibited by order of New Zealand Police"
Two devices two parties (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
According to the article, they already have the SIM card. Use that in another cell
phone to call in on a dialup and download the port, etc. and then re-install the sim card back into the unit before tacking it to the respective politican's car.
Re: (Score:2)
New Zealand != Australia (Score:2, Insightful)
Ralph Williams arrested for 'Theft of Property' (Score:5, Informative)
I suppose the police will argue that listing the items as police bugs on an auction site shows awareness that the bugs weren't his to sell. Thus, he'd "stolen" them by their logic.
Mr. Williams' day in court promises to be interesting...
-Isaac
Re:Ralph Williams arrested for 'Theft of Property' (Score:3, Interesting)
I guess the cops weren't so hot on him selling them on eBay. I don't know what the difference would be, though. The cops literally gave it to him.
Re:Ralph Williams arrested for 'Theft of Property' (Score:5, Interesting)
Why don't they just let it go instead of digging a deeper hole for themselves by arresting him and lying. This is almost as bad as the recent incident of the under-not-so-good-cover police agents provocateuse with the rocks trying to start a riot in Montebello, Quebec.
As stated in the article, he asked the police officer whose mobile phone device was contacting if the police had left their property on his car. When they denied they were theirs, he concluded they were fair game to sell as they were on his property. I think the judge might take a dim view of this.
Fascist Police tactics not so funny (Score:4, Insightful)
(and that's hard to do)
Since when is surveillance ever an issue of immediacy? You usually engage in it over a protracted period in order to slowly gather evidence. Also a warrant hardly ever takes more than a day or even a few hours to get in any country I ever heard of. Anyhow, what Judge is going to refuse a warrant for a bugging device considered so important by the Police that they have already installed it?
This seems to be a deliberate loop-hole in the law to allow for warrant-less surveillance. The very fact that a regular police force investigating a fairly low-level crime uses this tactic kind of implies that this is fairly widespread or typical behaviour as well.
Yet another reason never to go to Australia.
Re:Fascist Police tactics not so funny (Score:5, Informative)
FYI, the article is referring to New Zealand, which is not yet a state of Australia.
Take Them To An Airport Men's Restroom (Score:2)
Let's take them to the nearest airport men's bathroom and past one in each of the stalls!
Or tape them to the bottoms of seats in an adult movie theatre.
Or, find out which church the chief judge goes to and tape them to the underside of the pews in that church.
Peace
Re: (Score:2)
How this was found... (Score:5, Interesting)
The article was very sparse regarding what problem he had with the cars that led to the discovery. I will take a speculation stab at this. Cell phones are well known for causing RFI problems with poorly shielded electronics doing everything from causing keyboards on PC's to lock-up to putting a buzz into radio and stereo gear.
The location of the device was on the passenger side footwell. This would place it close to the engine computer in many cars. It may be an easy to install location for the police and the GPS antenna can be located under the dashboard giving a good location for GPS reception through the plastic dash and windscreen, but the cell transmitter in that location could and probably did cause problems with both the stereo and engine computer. As he stated, it was a botched installation that led to the discovery. A proper install would have located the cell transmitter in the trunk away from sensitive electronics to transmit out the rear window. The car ran poorly, but it was probably the teltale radio noise that geve it away. Removing it fixed both the radio and engine computer.
This interference issue is why most magnet mount tracking devices are mounted on the rear of the car away from the engine compartment. Inside the plastic rear bumper on a metal bracket is a favorite location. there is little chance of interference revealing it's presence, and good GPS and cell signals.
Why not mail them? (Score:3)
Dumb crooks (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Frist Psot (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Would've been hilarious if... (Score:4, Funny)
Glue them to a bus. Best of all a long range one. Or a delivery van.
Re:Would've been hilarious if... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Would've been hilarious if... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Would've been hilarious if... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Would've been hilarious if... (Score:4, Funny)
SIM card? (Score:4, Interesting)
Personally, though, I think it might be more fun to attach the thing to a sewer-sucker or garbage truck... something unpleasant at any rate. Perhaps the interface would allow one to reconfigure the number it calls out to, so you could make use of the device itself.
Regardless, though,it seems that - legitimately or not - the police have it in for this guy, and doing anything of the like is just going to piss them off and provoke an unpleasant response. How about taking them to court for police harassment? If they don't have a warrant then you've got a good case (and who knows, you might be able to keep the things after, especially if it's denied they own them). If they do... well at least you get to see what the grounds of the warrant were.
Re:Would've been hilarious if... (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)