Student Arrested for Writing Essay 890
mcgrew writes "The Chicago Tribune reports that an eighteen year old straight-A High School student was arrested for writing an essay that 'disturbed' his teacher. Even though no threats were made to a specific person, 18 year-old Allen Lee's English teacher convened a panel to discuss the work. As a result of that discussion, the police were called in. 'The youth's father said his son was not suspended or expelled but was forced to attend classes elsewhere for now. Today, Cary-Grove students rallied behind the arrested teen by organizing a petition drive to let him back in their school. They posted on walls quotes from the English teacher in which she had encouraged students to express their emotions through writing.'"
Well there you go... (Score:5, Insightful)
Overreactions (Score:3, Insightful)
Understandable? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Well there you go... (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course how many of these "depressed kids" [myself included in that instant] are just bored and looking for attention, I wonder.
in this case would it have been so hard to pull the kid aside with the parents and ask what's up? Instead of going all omgbbq!!!!111oneCRAZIES over it?
Tom
Re:The arresting officers (Score:3, Insightful)
Disorderly conduct? (Score:5, Insightful)
Disorderly conduct, which carries a penalty of 30 days in jail and a $1,500 fine, is filed for pranks such as pulling a fire alarm or dialing 911. But it can also apply when someone's writings can disturb an individual, Delelio said
If this is true, then the disorderly conduct statute should be declared unconstitutional. If writing something that could disturb any random individual (without directly threatening that individual) is an arrestable offense, then the very idea of free speech is pretty much out the window. After all, if the First Amendment isn't there to protect possibly disturbing speech, what is it there for?
Dangerous precedant (Score:1, Insightful)
Write a "dissenting article" -> arrest
Write a "criticism of a politician" -> arrest
Write to expose high crimes of those in power -> arrest
--
Side topic:
By the way, ever notice the people's solution to every problem is always arrest?
Nice reporting Chicago Tribune (Score:4, Insightful)
really ridiculous (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:The arresting officers (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Understandable? (Score:3, Insightful)
Stuff like this will always happen after a tragedy until people realize that reality is not digital, no single thing can ever be pointed to as a blame or conclusive evidence that something bad is going to happen. Blaming video games, movies, rock and roll, Harry Potter, or 'disturbing' writing is pointless, none of that ever made anyone who they are or caused anything on it's own.
Why do their grades matter (Score:5, Insightful)
Just what was the point of that?
Re:Well there you go... (Score:5, Insightful)
They arrested the wrong person. (Score:2, Insightful)
Its Not Censorship, its Thoughtcrime (Score:5, Insightful)
Seems to me this was a smart kid playing games with a stupid touchy feely assignment for a blow-off class his senior year.
Should the kid have been referred to a counselor? Sure.
Should the kids parents been contacted? Absolutely.
Arrested because his thoughts are disturbing? No.
Re:Understandable? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Disorderly conduct? (Score:3, Insightful)
The teachers did the right thing by being cautious and that shouldn't be discouraged. Perhaps some refining of the "what to do when we think we have a problem kid" procedure would be beneficial.
Re:Understandable? (Score:1, Insightful)
What disturbs me is the utter lack of an appropriate response. It's almost as bad as the 1970s Catholic Bishop response to a peadophile priest: bring him in, talk to him, censor him for a bit, then reassign him to a new location to offend again.
That's basically what they did with this kid- arrested him, charged him, released him to a new school where nobody knows him or how to deal with his insecurities.
That is UTTERLY the wrong solution. I'd settle for- no arrest, referal to mental health professionals, keep the kid with his friends so he has an outlet for his feelings, and give him his very own entry in the state gun control lookup database to prevent him from legally buying a firearm. The 2nd and 3rd parts are more important than the 1st and the 4th- but ALL need to happen given recent events. The arrest probably accomplishes #4 at best- and leaves #2 and #3 completely undone.
THAT IS NOTHING,..... (Score:4, Insightful)
What actually happened was that he snapped another student's pencil.
the USA's legal system is broken beyond repair.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Knee-jerk reaction to Virginia Tech (Score:5, Insightful)
My friend had a similar situation happen to him after the Columbine High School shooting. He made up a death-list and talked about it to friends and other students in school PRIOR to Columbine. After Columbine, he was picked up by the school administrators and police and spent several days in consoling until they decided that he wasn't serious.
Re:Well there you go... (Score:1, Insightful)
Just ask George Orwell; 1984 discusses exactly how the word "freedom" will change.
Re:Well there you go... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Too bad we can't judge the essay for ourselves (Score:3, Insightful)
There are other courses of action to deal with it when someone is obviously disturbed, but really, no matter what he wrote, no matter how vile or stomach turning, it doesn't prove he's even unstable - it only proves he knows how to write to nauseate people.
I mean, have you seen Resevoir Dogs? Would you have had Quentin Tarantino's teacher's put him in a padded cell?
Re:Well there you go... (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't speak for anyone else, but I was disruptive because I was bored and looking for attention.
I was depressed because I was bullied, because you are not permitted to be an individual in school.
And when I was kicked out of a school for finally getting in an actual fight and winning, instead of just being casually punched and kicked, or having things stolen from me, or having my bicycle destroyed in the mandatory-use bike rack, I was depressed because it was proof that the system was not there to educate me - I was an inconvenience to them and they were working to eliminate me.
Kids who aren't depressed by school are the ones with something wrong with them.
Re:Disorderly conduct? (Score:2, Insightful)
The author should be arrested.
I find the behavior of the school board disturbing, they should be arrested.
I find the fact that you are reading this disturbing, you should be arrested.
the fact that I am writing this i find disturbing, I should be arrested.
Re:Disorderly conduct? (Score:3, Insightful)
You mean just like how the standard for sexual harassment is supposed to be that a reasonable person would find it to be offensive, but the actual standard is whether the so-called victim finds it offensive?
I just like to bring the sexual harassment laws up occasionally because they are sexist against men. Classic overcorrection. The legal system is in general biased against men, in fact, starting with the cops who let women go more than they let men go (after a traffic stop) and it continues through various other aspects; for instance, hunting down deadbeat dads is big business, but deadbeat moms? Good luck...
Re:The Essay? (Score:2, Insightful)
"Blood, sex and booze. Drugs, drugs, drugs are fun. Stab, stab, stab, stab, stab, s...t...a...b..., puke. So I had this dream last night where I went into a building, pulled out two P 90s and started shooting everyone, then had sex with the dead bodies. Well, not really, but it would be funny if I did."
This kid was correctly removed from the classroom. He should be examined by psychiatrists and a judgment should be made as to his mental health and well-being. If he is not a danger to anyone, he should be allowed back. This decision shouldn't be left to school officials, but to qualified medical professions.
That being said, this kid sounds like a fuckin nut job.
Re:The arresting officers (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Well there you go... (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course I was also fairly well occupied outside of school. I was in Air Cadets, went out with the few friends I had, played music, and was a general all around PC hacker.
I think the trick to surviving school is to think, as I did, that school is a small part of your life and 1 second after you grad from high school it's all over anyways. It's been 7 years since I left school and I have yet to meet any of them again, even though I still live in the same town.
It's the kids who put too much stock into their station in school life that get wicked depressed when they're not part of the cool clique.
Tom
Re:Understandable? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The Essay? (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe Lee really did have that dream; it's a disturbing enough dream, but how many of us don't have disturbing or even violent dreams? His reaction to it -- "it would be funny if I did" is far too vague. Let the kid talk to a psychologist. He's a teenager. I'm sure all teens could benefit from a few good therapy sessions.
Re: San Francisco values (Score:3, Insightful)
Sadly, actions really don't really speak louder than words where Special Interest Politics are concerned, and so the San Francisco status quo can continue to market itself with terms like "compassion, tolerance, respect". But I would remind those people that it's not really tolerance if you agree with the people you're Tolerating. And, to bring the discussion back to the article, it's not really free speech if you can't write disturbing, mean, or hateful things.
Re:Why do their grades matter (Score:3, Insightful)
Misconception... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:The Essay? (Score:5, Insightful)
I distinctly remember a poem I wrote, where I described in first person the sensation and thoughts of a person committing suicide by jumping. Even my own mother looked at me like I was nuts, and we all joked about how someone might say something, but nothing came of it. People never questioned my motivation or the writing. You know there is this quote attributed to Sigmund Freud, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
I hope the criminal charges against him get dismissed and that he returns to school to complete his senior year. It seems pretty obvious to me that there is a great potential that the decision they made was both racial and reactionary. Neither of which are right.
Imagine this post, a few weeks ago (Score:4, Insightful)
Before that day a new record was set by a young man. By a young a man who had submitted stories and plays that disturbed his teachers but who took no action.
What if they had?
Well, off course if they had then the shooting would not have happened so those teachers would have been totally out of order for doing something.
The job of the police is to stop crime. No it isn't. The job of the police is to arrest people AFTER they committed a crime. As Terry Pratchett put in a recent Discworld novel "we caught the guy that done it" sounds a lot better then "we caught the guy that looked like he was going to do it" especially if they say "prove it".
BUT that doesn't help much when you got 30 dead.
Saying that those people paid the price of freedom is NOT going to win you any friends.
One /.er posted a link with a small segment of the essay. It seems to me like the typical emo/teenage kid rant. Personally I think hanging is to good for them but sadly I am not the judge.
The point is however that this happened right after a tragedy wich might have been prevented. Do you want to be the person who ignores the warning signs next time? In the the U Sue of All (man that would have my english teacher calling in the special forces)?
But we don't know the whole essay. Most police officers are rather down to earth, they KNOW the world. For them to make an arrest and for it not to be all settled easily alarms me. Slashdot happily tells us that this guy is a straight-A student. That is great because we all know straight-A students do NOT flip out. What I want to know is this, did the police check him out and what the fuck did they find?
Why doesn't slashdot reportd exactly how many guns this person owns (whatever the number may be and remember, zero is an important number) and how many kilo's of ammo he has stockpiled (again remember the humble zero).
Freedom and the prevention of crime do NOT mix. Since most want both, you are going to have conflicts.
"Write whatever comes into your mind." (Score:3, Insightful)
If a teacher does not know his or her students well enough to deal with whatever comes out of a free association exercise, that teacher has no business giving that kind of assignment. And as far as the state attorney bringing charges, hasnt Florida had enough political embarassment this decade?
The other thing I don't understand is why the teacher read the assignment. Is she this kid's psychoanalyst? Yeah, you do free association as a creative exercise, to loosen up your mental censor so you can find material you wouldn't have found. You then pick over whatever you find to get ideas to write about. You're not supposed to turn in this stuff. It's an invasion of privacy. Nobody has any right to demand an inspection of whatever is in another person's head.
Re:Well there you go... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Knee-jerk reaction to Virginia Tech (Score:2, Insightful)
Freedom? What freedom? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why can the government tell me who or how many people I can marry?
Why can the government tell me what plants I can grow?
Why can the government tell me what substances I can own?
Why can the government tell me how (or if) I should dress?
Why can the government tell two consenting adults what they can do together, or whether they can charge one another for it?
Why can the government tell me what countries I can visit?
I don't know of anywhere that I would really call free, and I am thankful for the freedoms I have. I am also watchful of the freedoms that are guaranteed to me but seem to be slipping. But I would love to see someplace that was really free.
Another 'offtopic' moderation coming my way, I'm sure...
Re:Overreactions (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah, but you're missing the point of censorship - you see, once something has been censored, nobody can see it. If we could see it, we'd have to use our own common sense and judgment to determine if it was actually harmful or not. That's not only hard work, it might even lead to the wrong conclusions - you may end up disagreeing with the Powerful Ones as to whether or not it needed to be censored. Plus, children might see it! As anybody who's never spent any actual time with an actual child knows, children have minds more fragile than Tiffany glass which can be irreparably, irreversibly destroyed by the slightest immoral thought at any time.
Rational subjective judgment and censorship can't coexist; we have to throw one out. Clearly, censorship is the lesser of the two evils.
Re:Well there you go... (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course it doesn't help that the media hypes up the existence of the school life. "So then like brittany totally dated john, but john was like totally into jane, but
Admittedly, what little of american schools I've seen they're different from us cannuck schools. More emphasis on being the "captain of the sports team" and all that jazz. While we have sports here, and amongst the sports fans there are popular folk and all that shit, in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter. We don't have packed stadiums to watch 14 year olds toss a football around, etc.
Tom
Re:Your thoughts are overrated. Eat, drink, be hap (Score:3, Insightful)
Besides that, the jist of your post seems to be, "Just be normal! And if you can't force yourself (i.e. dumb yourself down enough) to think like the masses, just act like you do anyway. Waste your life away being a passive "me-too"-er who never questions the status-quo or gets emotional about anything. It's fun to try to fit in! The majority of America does it, so you might as well do it too, right?"
If you really believe that line of bullshit, then there's not much anyone can do for you. Just go turn your television back on, get another beer, and stop trying to think.
Re:The arresting officers (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What is "disorderly conduct"? (Score:5, Insightful)
>>Yes, but that does not exempt you from the consequences of exercising that right.
That's ridiculous! It's obviously not a "Right" if the government can throw you in prison for exercising it!
Re:Well there you go... (Score:0, Insightful)
Sing it, emo boy.
Re:The Essay? (Score:5, Insightful)
Excellent knee-jerk reaction for someone having absolutely no context for the writing.
If you made judgement on the writing alone, all of 4chan would be in jail. Look, the kid could have written it specifically to see how the teacher would react, he could have written it to explore things that disturb him in a manner that is safe, he could have been writing it as a joke, or perhaps he wrote it specifically to be disturbing and to invoke that feeling in the reader. Isn't part of art (whether it's writing, painting, sculpture, whatever) to invoke emotion in the reader/viewer?
Your kind of reaction, done with very limited information on the situation, is a perfect example of what's wrong in the world. This need for immediate gratification, in this case by passing judgement so you can now move on to the next topic and not bother with this again.
It's just silly.
Re:Knee-jerk reaction to Virginia Tech (Score:1, Insightful)
You say that like that's not batshit motherfucking crazy. There's about an ocean of difference between writing some depressive paper that doesn't threaten a specific person, and making a goddamn death list. I'm not sure I'd use such an extreme situation to attack the administration in TFA
Troll? (Score:2, Insightful)
who would have a child arrested for a 'disturbing' paper.
Many of the framers of the U.S. Constitution wrote 'disturbing' papers.
Such MOdders are the exact reason people take the law into their own hands.
Must have been a teacher.
Re:Well there you go... (Score:5, Insightful)
Or since the 1800's, when the sheriff was whoever had the biggest gun, and the law was whatever he said it was.
Or in the early 1700's, when the Brits owned and controlled everything, slavery was status quo, and a whole race of people was considered to be sub-human, and treated accordingly.
Yep, things have really gone downhill in the US. With this sort of track-record, who knows what could happen next!
Re:The Essay? (Score:4, Insightful)
I've read conflicting things that say this was a creative writing assignment and an essay. The two are not synonymous and this small excerpt proves absolutely nothing about the kid's mental stability. It's not even necessarily indicative of a lack of any stability. Plenty of people write about gore all the time. Have you ever seen any movies like Halloween, Hellraiser, Friday the 13th?
Effectively this kid did nothing more than have bad timing with what he wrote. The teacher went way overboard in his/her reaction and should be reprimanded for such behavior. An appropriate response would have been to call the kid and his parents in for a counselling session with the teacher and explain why that type of writing is inappropriate and find out if there is a reason behind the writing. Arrest is completely unwaranted and just shows how ridiculous we have become as a society. Fear is never a good reason for any action unless it's specifically self defense.
Re:Imagine this post, a few weeks ago (Score:3, Insightful)
I need freedom more than I need friends.
Most police officers are glorified ticket writers, and they don't know shit.
Only detectives need brains, all other cops simply follow procedure, on which they have been repeatedly drilled.
The military and the paramilitary organizations work basically on the same principle. You have a few chiefs, who are smart, driven, et cetera. Then you have a whole bunch of peons, who are there to do their bidding. One of the selection criteria is their tendency to do what they are told. This is valuable from a chain-of-command standpoint but it is counterproductive from the standpoint of justice.
You have obviously been brainwashed into believing that people wouldn't be a suspect if they weren't guilty.
You clearly do not understand the principles of justice; chief among them the concept of innocent until proven guilty, without which there is no justice - because you can't prove a negative.
You are part of the problem in this country. Personally, I don't believe anything the government tells me, and very little of what the media tells me. History has shown that this is only pragmatism, not paranoia.
Re:Well there you go... (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes, actually it would. Because if it does turn out this kid is the next mass murderer/psycho/rapist/etc., guess who gets sued into oblivion by the victims' families (and their attorneys who get 1/3+ of any $$$)?...that's right: the teacher, school, and district because they should have seen it coming. This is just the school doing a CYA as a result of our litigious society.
violates rights, and just plain stupid (Score:1, Insightful)
And do they really think that 'charging' him rather than seeing if he needs help is the best way to go about this. Charging him with a crime won't do crap. If he needs help, this does nothing. It's like hitting your kid for being bad without understanding why he was bad or teaching him why he shouldn't do it.
-Tony
Re:Well there you go... (Score:3, Insightful)
Thought police?
Re:Freedom? What freedom? (Score:4, Insightful)
Freedom as you describe it cannot exist in concert with civilization as we know it. That is not because of your points, but because of the ease with which the freedoms you pontificate about are extended to their extreme.
And please do not even attempt to say it wouldn't happen.
Re:Well there you go... (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think it works that way for the same reason that little kids cry when they drop their ice cream cone. Nothing truly bad has ever happened to them. By the same token, school is [ostensibly] the most important thing you've ever done as a child. Your parents make a bigger deal out of it than almost anything else. And it's the most influential social scene they've ever been a part of.
School is simply presented as the most important thing in their lives. If it isn't, we should stop treating it that way. If it is, then maybe WE should take OUR roles (as citizens, parents, educators, whatever we are) in education more seriously. We should actually work to stop the bullying, and I don't care if the bullies are athletes or not (but the schools certainly do.) We should treat children like humans, not like animals. They have needs and desires and hopes and fears like the rest of us and to dismiss them is to do them a great disservice.
Re:The arresting officers (Score:4, Insightful)
Given this as a benchmark, I'd like to suggest that the world keep a very close eye on Mr. Vincent Furnier and Mr. Brian Warner. They have written and published extensively on some very disturbing topics, including drug use, violence against women, violence in families, violence in general, sexual devience, and school bombings. These are the sort of psychopaths that shouldn't be allowed to roam the streets freely.
Given the social climate, and the impressionable minds that such writings might reach, I think it better if they were arrested as soon as possible. Who knows how much of a following they might be able to generate, or what horrendous acts such followers might carry out?
Please, if you see either of these men, let your local authorities know right away.
You should also know that they frequently travel under the aliases Alice Cooper and Marilyn Manson.
Re:Well there you go... (Score:2, Insightful)
That's because you don't have packed stadiums to see 24 year-olds toss a football around either.
Lucky for you. Seriously.
Re:Knee-jerk reaction to Virginia Tech (Score:2, Insightful)
Jesus.
Re:The Essay? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like a nut job? To me, he sounds like a teen following the directions of the assignment and trying to determine where the limits lie. While not as well executed, Lee's essay has elements that are similar to sections of T.S. Elliot's The Wasteland [bartleby.com], the drug advocacy of Alan Ginsberg, the poetry of Sylvia Plath. Literature is filled with dead people we now refer to as artists and legends who became thus because they explored the dark edges of humanity. Oedipus Rex is all about incest and patricide, the works of Shakespeare are filled with violence, sex, and death. So, take this background, a bright student, and an assignment that instructs the students not to censor themselves, and just what did you expect to come out? No poets get recognized for writing about happy puppies and cute kittens.
Add to that, the only text from the essay I've seen has been excerpted out of context. If I just give you this text "And ate the fellow, raw.", what would you think the poem was about? Perhaps a bit from Silence of the Lambs? A quote from Penthouse Letters? A story about eating octopus [boingboing.net]? Nope. That's from Emily Dickinson's "In the garden" [cuny.edu]. Context is key to meaning.
Should the teacher have done something? Probably. Should someone have talked with Lee to find out if he really had violent tendencies? Sure. Should they have charged the kid with a crime for following, perhaps to the logical extreme, the explicit instructions on the assignment? Definitely not.
Re:A fuckin nut job? (Score:2, Insightful)
I think the problem is that you assume 'fuckin nut job' is a bad thing. You shouldn't be so quick to judge.
Re:The arresting officers (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Knee-jerk reaction to Virginia Tech (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Freedom? What freedom? (Score:4, Insightful)
Cause thankfully there are laws against people like that being in my society.
Re:Knee-jerk reaction to Virginia Tech (Score:3, Insightful)
This will undo my mod but... (Score:4, Insightful)
And now I elarn today that you can be arrested if you write something which is troubling somebody, and promptly a 18 old was arrested for doing so.
So... Who is the more fucked up ? One country which arrest people which want to cremate/kill/genocide other folk, or police which arrest student for writing an essay calling for killing having sex with body and drug ?
Sound as bad each other IMHO. At least here in Europe we do not have the ILLUSION of having free speech, whereas on the other side of the atlantic, beside free speech being written on a piece of paper, you are as bad or as good off as us...
Re:Freedom? What freedom? (Score:2, Insightful)
But at least now you know the answer to your original Why question: Because the person who responded to your post can't tell the difference but he can still vote.
Re:Well there you go... (Score:4, Insightful)
I think that most kids diagnosed with ADD etc are actually just smart kids who need more to do.
Children should be challenged and to assign them to classes based on their age is convenient but does not serve their educational needs. Nor their social ones.
However, our school system is based on a German design intended to produce good factory workers. It mostly teaches children to line up in rows, sit still, and follow orders unquestioningly. So really the whole thing is broken and I think anyone who sends their children to a public school is guilty of child abuse.
Re:Freedom? What freedom? (Score:3, Insightful)
So you're still not letting people do what they want, if you're stopping them from building a nuke in their basement. You're still drawing a line, saying "you can do this, but you can't do that".
So you agree that certain actions should not be allowed. You can no longer argue that people should be free to do what they want, because you don't want to allow that. You're basically back to arguing for each individual action whether it should or should not be allowed.
Several of your original examples easily fall under your "potential for very significant harm". It is only if you do not bother to follow the larger consequences of actions on a societal level that you would not see that.
Stephen King perspective (Score:4, Insightful)
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20036014,00.html [ew.com]
Basically, what someone writes says little about their state of mind.
I agree 100% with Mr King and add that many people write in order to understand why people do the things they do. They want to see things through their eyes and live through the experiences that lead up to a "nut job end" so that ultimately they can become better more compassionate human beings or better able to see the warning signs when people start to get lost or just to form their own opinions instead of parroting the reaction they're "supposed to have".
The last thing we need to do is to discourage this sort of wisdom seeking. The world is already too full of superficial reactionaries that mindlessly see the world through safe "society approved"[TM] labels like "nut job", "terrorist", "communist", "capitalist", "fanatic", "cultist",
Re:Knee-jerk reaction to Virginia Tech (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't worry, I did it too. After a year or two I realized the irony of the situation and found great humor in it.
Re:Freedom? What freedom? (Score:2, Insightful)
But you can... just look towards Africa. There are places in Africa where you can do ANYTHING you want as long as you can back it up.
Re:"Student arrested for not believing in God" (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:The Essay? (Score:3, Insightful)
Why would the authorities be afraid of releasing the essay? They only would if they had something to lose by releasing it. What could they have to lose? Their credibility?
These sort of holes in news stories are what concern me the most. How hard would it have been to quote a suspicious section?
Re:Knee-jerk reaction to Virginia Tech (Score:2, Insightful)
Big difference.
Re:Freedom? What freedom? (Score:2, Insightful)
Liar. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The arresting officers (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Understandable? (Score:3, Insightful)
Happiness can take a squat. If "you" pose a grave threat to me, or even moreso my family, then "your" life is worth less to me than a sack of beans. That ain't creative writing either, that's what we call "truth", Bubba. I want to be very clear about that, right up front, so you don't have to scratch your head wondering. I find you endangering the ones I love, and I will end you. No second thoughts. No remorse. All clear on that? Good.
I have bought and sold quite a few guns over the years. I currently own several. I'm a pretty decent shot. I target shoot regularly, because I enjoy doing so as a hobby, and not for any other particular reason like home defense, job requirement, or hunting.
I've played a fair amount of what seems to be considered "violent" video games including GTA, Wolfenstein, Lethal Enforcer, Call of Duty, so on an so forth. I've watched a fair amount of violent television programming and movies. I've read some violent and disturbing books, including everybody's favorite footnote "Catcher in the Rye".
I have never entertained the notion of doing harm to another. I have never pointed a weapon any more dangerous than a SuperSoaker at another human being. I hope on hope I am never put in that position. I, and millions of others, are safe an consciencous gun owners. You suggest that I should not be if I can imagine a situation where another's life is worth less than... something. I refer you back to my first paragraph as testament to my "imagination", and repectfully point out that it doesn't take that much.
All the same, I don't think I'll be letting you take my guns away today. Thanks anyway.
Re:"Student arrested for not believing in God" (Score:3, Insightful)
Now the warning flag goes off you don't go have a meeting about disaplinary actions. You have a meeting with the school counceler. You get the student help, if help is refused then you might want to seek some other means to communicate with the student or talk to the parents. If this doesn't work then maybe escalate it higher.
It sounds like the student in this case was not even told about the concerns in the paper, I'm sure this has to do with the recent school shooting. I mean a school teacher felt there was something wrong and had them removed. Good decision, at that point there is no need to involve the police because someone is disturbed. No one was specificly threatened in this case. But the student wasn't even talked to, he was just treated as a criminal.
Its a sad day indeed.
If your writing your personal feelings and handing them in I believe that you are reaching out. The teacher pulled away from the student and betrayed them. Thats the saddest thing you could do. Giving the student some one on one time might have been all he needed. I'm sure that there are millions of students that have gone out and wrote things that could be taken the same way this one was. Only a small percentage of that percentage ever escalate their fealings in the real world. Most of those might have been able to get help if the person reached out to them.
We should arrest Stephen King and the like... (Score:1, Insightful)
Mr. Cho may have written in a disturbing way but there are many other people that have written more disturbing writings and they are famous and rich. A good example is Stephen King. I read many books from him and if it wasn't for his notoriety now we would have arrested him too. There are many writers that write "disturbing", creepy, and strange matters but does that make them killers?
However, we need to look at person's personality and character if they write any "unusual" things as to ascertain if they are really dangerous to society or just have an unusual, macabre, and creative outlet. Most of the people who write this stuff are just doing it for an "creative" outlet and are no harm to no one.
We should look at the person's personality and character and not what they write before we run to the authority and detain unreasonably.
Re:Knee-jerk reaction to Virginia Tech (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me guess: whatever commands or actions by God that happen to be convenient to use for proselytizing. We can safely ignore the rest and chalk it up to "intrepretation."
When my angel goes in front of you, and brings you to the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, and I blot them out, you shall not bow down to their gods, or worship them, or follow their practices, but you shall utterly demolish them and break their pillars in pieces (Exodus 23.23-24).
When Yahweh your God brings you into the land that you are about to enter and occupy, and he clears away many nations before you -- the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites...and when Yahweh your God gives them over to you...you must utterly destroy them...Show them no mercy...For you are a people holy to Yahweh your God; Yahweh your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on earth to be his people, his treasured possession (Deuteronomy 7.1-11; see also 9.1-5; 11.8-9, 23, 31-32).
But as for the towns of these peoples that Yahweh your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not let anything that breathes remain alive. You shall annihilate them--the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites--just as Yahweh your God has commanded, so that they may not teach you to do all the abhorrent things that they do for their gods, and you thus sin against Yahweh your God (Deuteronomy 20.16-18).
Three different passages, from two different books, and and the same message from the mouth of God commanding the death of every man, woman, and child. Let me guess: it's taken "out of context," right? Or perhaps the message has been adulterated through man--in which case, what standard of measure do you have to claim any other aspect of the Bible hasn't been also.
I know: whatever happens to be convenient to believe.
Re:Freedom? What freedom? (Score:5, Insightful)
As long as everyone involved is an adult and as long as everything's done with the informed consent of everyone involved, I frankly don't see why you should have a right to dictate what others can or can't do. I assume, based on your nickname, that you enjoy coffee. I'm also going to guess (without any basis) that you're heterosexual and not celibate (or that you wouldn't be if you had a girlfriend in case you don't have one). How would you feel if I came along and told you that in "my society", doing depraved things like drinking coffee and having missionary-style sex with your girlfriend are (or, at the very least, should be) illegal? Wouldn't you feel that this is an intrusion into your private matters - that as long as your girlfriend wants to have sex with you, there's no reason why the two of you shouldn't, and that whether you drink coffee or not is noone's business but your own?
Maybe you think that that's not the same, but if you do, you couldn't be more wrong. Freedom is always the freedom of others.
Re:The arresting officers (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This police action disservices literature. (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Knee-jerk reaction to Virginia Tech (Score:3, Insightful)
Not every word of it, no. I actually intend to eventually, even though I consider it to be mostly fiction.
However, rape was never condoned or commanded.
Genesis 19
19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
19:2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
19:3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
Anyway you might want to take notice that hte New Testament is very different. Yes, I believe in both, but something did indeed change at a certain point,
Aaah, the old "The New Testament establishes a new covenant with God's Children" line. Maybe, maybe not. Nonetheless, if we accept that the Old Testament is indeed the Word of God, we see that the God of the Bible did indeed command every - or nearly every - manner of atrocity imaginable.
and it's not fair to take certain things out of context for the purpose of bashing.
Who's bashing? I don't care much about the Bible or the God of Christianity either way. I think it's all a bunch of bollocks. I was just adding some support for an earlier comment that suggests that as example of writing about evil acts, the Bible is about as bad as it gets. Should we put this kid from Chicago in jail for what he wrote, when the holy text of one of the world's most common religions shows their God endorsing such evil? I think that was the more the original point...
Re:The arresting officers (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Knee-jerk reaction to Virginia Tech (Score:2, Insightful)
oh stop it. the bible records actual events and - shock and horror - people do bad things. that's why they are recorded.
the bible doesn't instruct anyone to rape other people, murder other people, commit incest (adam and eve's close family didn't have much choice, if that is how it went down) and torture others. it doesn't teach these things as "virtues."
nor does it teach dishonesty as a virtue.
there was a time, long, long ago, where god worked through the physical nation israel and he did use them to execute evil peoples and communities (propel them into their yet future resurrection to learn how not be evil so they can be allowed to live forever). god never taught any person to go out and kill others based on their own desire to do so. never.
agree or disagree, fine. but don't be dishonest.