Court Rules GIS Data Can't Be Kept Secret 269
Silverbear writes "In an update from a Slashdot story posted in January, The Connecticut Supreme Court has ruled that there is not a significant security risk to the town of Greenwich in making its GIS Data available to the public, and therefore must do so. Greenwich had claimed that the data could compromise personal and national security, and was sued under CT Freedom of Information laws. The legal ruling is available."
ok now (Score:2)
Re:ok now (Score:5, Informative)
It's basically maps - elevation, road, land cover, buildings, that sort of stuff.
More than that. (Score:5, Interesting)
Basically, think of it as a new kind of database. One that is capable of generating maps.
And just like any other database, it could have who knows what in it. Some information is very private, and some isn't.
Re:More than that. (Score:2)
Oh did I mention, yesterday I got four letters to consolidate my student loands and two letters to get a parent plus loan. I don't have kids, and i consolidated my student loans about five years ago (and you cannot reconsolidate).
Re:More than that. (Score:4, Informative)
All that data was protected by the privacy act. Kiss that goodbye!
Quit overreacting. FEMA's GIS system has all that info, because they tie those private pieces of information to houses. Greenwich's GIS just has streets, utilities, and property tax information - all public info.
Many cities put this data online. For example, here is Charlotte, NC [mecklenburg.nc.us]'s GIS system, open to the public.
Greenwich just doesn't want to share its public information, because it's public information about rich people.
Re:More than that. (Score:5, Informative)
Oh and there's the part where Connecticut's open records act is different than FOIA.
Finally, I kind of doubt that Greenwich's municipal database contains the same kind of detailed information that FEMA's did.
While I'm sure that there's some private data in Greenwich's database, the FOIA commission ordered that certain private information be sanitized.
I think it's perhaps a little premature to "Kiss that goodbye!"
--AC
Re:ok now (Score:2)
Re:ok now (Score:2)
Re:ok now (Score:3, Informative)
From google "define gis"
is the abbreviation for geographic information system. GIS are special-purpose digital databases in which a common spatial coordinate system is the primary means of reference. GIS contain subsystems for: 1) data input; 2) data storage, retrieval, and representation; 3) data management, transformation, and analysis; and 4) data reporting and product generation. It is useful to view GIS as a process rather than a thing. A GIS supports data collection, analysis, and decision making and is far more than a software or hardware product. Other terms for GIS, and special-purpose GIS, include: Land-Base Information System, Land Record System
Re:ok now (Score:2)
See Tigerline [census.gov]and GRASS [grass.itc.it] for examples of data and software, respectively.
Re:ok now (Score:5, Informative)
Re:ok now (Score:2)
Every piece of information any person or company who wants to dig a hole somewhere needs to know without electrocuting themselves, starting a flood, causing a gas explosion or disrupting communication between air traffic controllers and the airports (at least in theory).
Thus these databases not only store ground height information, contour lines, but the locations and addresses of buildings, offices, factories, power lines, substations, pylons, underground electricity cables, water supplies, gas pipes, sewerage system, reservoirs, waste dumps, fibre optic cables, underground streams, communication towers etc...
But nothing a person couldn't deduce by walking along a road and looking around or reading the labels on the manhole covers.
Re:ok now (Score:2)
Google Image Search. Duh!
I'm not sure why they want to keep google image searches secrets to hide from terrorists though...
[/sarcasm]
Yes, I did read the replies that explained what GIS meant in this instance, but that was what I thought before I came in, scrolled down, and looked for one of the necessary and redundant explanations.
For crying out loud, Slashdot! Don't use uncommon acronyms over and over without telling us what they are, or an idea of where they come from! Especially an acronym with a more common, mundane meaning! You KNOW people often can't RTFA (I won't tell you what that acronym means, but you can infer from context... unlike the one in the blurb) because of slashdottings.
Re:ok now (Score:2)
Geographic Information System is a meaning that predates the existence of Google by at least a decade, probably two. Your own failure to be aware of it does not make it arcane.
Re:ok now (Score:2)
Geographic Information System is a meaning that predates the existence of Google by at least a decade, probably two. Your own failure to be aware of it does not make it arcane.
So, on a daily basis, more people use the Geographic Information System than Google then? Or did I say "common and mundane" and not "older"?
Your own failure to know the meaning of the words I use don't make me wrong, jerk.
Re:ok now (Score:2)
Re:ok now (Score:2)
sPh
Re:ok now (Score:2)
Re:ok now (Score:2)
Geographers claim domain over everything on the surface of the earth, so I think you will find just about everything in someone's GIS, legally surveyed or not.
sPh
Re:ok now (Score:3, Insightful)
Even mm precise instruments don't get the correct postion when surverying things like sewer manholes because the center of the manhole cover is tough to find, and the center of manhold cover is not the center of the manhole in many cases.
Re:ok now (Score:2)
I think you will find just about everything in someone's GIS
Couldn't agree with you more. If data has a spatial element (coordinates or place name), it can be spatially referenced (can even have multiple references - see AeroText [aerotext.com] - if you refer to say a newspaper article that discusses the Iraq war - US and Iraq spatial references plus others possibly).
In addition to the GPS and survey records, add in aerial, satellite, and old paper maps and you have some of the more common methods of data collection. You can't forget through about sensor types when looking at any of the collection methods. Oh yeah, you could consider bathymetric data from ships or reports for things like ship wrecks and other obstructions.
Re:ok now (Score:3, Funny)
GIS info is sensitive? Give me a break! (Score:5, Informative)
Believe me people, if the terrorists wanted to poison the water supply they wouldn't need the GIS data to figure out how to do it. They also probably really don't care about the Census data to figure out population centers (especially in Greenwich). I highly doubt they care about tax information like assessment values and boundaries as Greenwich is all high-cost living for the most part.
GIS data should be freely examinable. We paid for it as taxpayers and even helped to contribute the data (Census) so why shouldn't we be able to access it? In fact, Portland's $900 for the data is too steep. It should be free for non-commercial use IMHO.
Next they'll make it all available but in a ROT-13 CSV file so they can protect it under the DMCA! Blah.
At least the courts knew better this time and ruled in favor of open information that the public paid for.
Re:GIS info is sensitive? Give me a break! (Score:5, Interesting)
What is it with the "this time" stuff? After a case goes through the full process of being heard, being appealed, and being heard at higher courts, it's reasonably certain that the outcome is correct according to the law. If the courts produce a decision you don't like, then you probably need to look to your lawmakers, not your justices.
Of course, most of the "decisions" that people complain about around here never go to court. i.e. The case procedes as:
1. Person get cease and desist or notices a rights violation.
2. Lots of complaining about how bad the courts are, and how they're all in Bush's/Clinton's/Jimmy Carter's pocket.
3. Case never goes to court, despite the law actually stating the "correct answer".
4. More complaining about how bad the courts are.
Yeash people. Believe it or not, the US court system does tend to work correctly.
Ok, I'm done with my rant now. You can mod me offtopic. (Because I am.)
Re:GIS info is sensitive? Give me a break! (Score:4, Insightful)
It tends to work correctly on shit that really doesn't matter (i.e. GIS data). It doesn't seem to work very well for civil rights violations such as the Patriot Act.
Yes, the people should stand up and revolt against the Patriot Act and those lawmakers, regime leaders, and officers of the court that aren't doing anything to stop it. Should we get bent out of shape over GIS data? No.
This is a step in the right direction showing that the information does need to be public even if someone uses the word "sensitive" or "terrorism".
Re:GIS info is sensitive? Give me a break! (Score:4, Interesting)
Also, some parts of the patriot act have been found unconstitutional [washingtonpost.com].
The People Are Revolting! (Score:2)
The moment people realize they can't record their favorite TV shows or televised events the way they used to, then you'll have the public's attention. And when it comes to light that they could have stopped it from happening or that they can band together to make that change happen, the broadcast flag rules might just go away in the event they actually happen. But with that one thing, a door opens to public awareness that can be used to bring to light a bunch of other government attrocities that passed under their noses.
Re:GIS info is sensitive? Give me a break! (Score:3, Funny)
"You're making baby Jesus cry!"
Re:GIS info is sensitive? Give me a break! (Score:2)
Re:GIS info is sensitive? Give me a break! (Score:2, Interesting)
Now, you're thinking, "but my tax dollars paid that bill!"
Probably, yes. However, the tax dollars are apportioned in different amounts to different groups within government. Some group has to fight hard to justify a budget allocation big enough to cover their GIS software licenses... and they don't want other government groups to reap the benefits without helping to pay for it.
Around here, government departments tend to charge one another huge fees for their GIS output, thus sharing the cost of the software licenses. If they were required to give it to citizens for free (or, for $900), then obviously they wouldn't be able to charge another government department more than that.
So... they might actually have been worried about security. It seems more plausible to me that some guy was just worried that the folks over in the other department would get his data, and he'd be footing the bill with his budget allocation. Passing it off as a security concern just seems like a better way to get higher-ups on board.
Re:GIS info is sensitive? Give me a break! (Score:2)
Re:GIS info is sensitive? Give me a break! (Score:2)
The article doesn't make it clear what the data in question was; On the other hand, I'm not sure what Greenwich even could have that would be sensitive.
As taxpayers, we pay for a lot of things we may or may not have access to or even any use for at all. In the case of the Census however, some quick googling will reveal that you can download it and use it to your hearts content. By the way, why free only for non-comercial use? Companies pay taxes too.
Re:GIS info is sensitive? Give me a break! (Score:5, Insightful)
GIS data (as I have proven) is not sensitive information. I have a feeling that at least some of what the CIA and NSA do is probably top secret and a cause for concern of our Nation's security.
Where taxes go up and down is not sensitive. How much my neighbors pay in taxes on their houses is quite important and is even more important when you are looking for a place to live (the true reason they don't want to pony up the information).
Let's not compare oranges and apples here. GIS != NSA/CIA regardless of how it is funded.
Re:GIS info is sensitive? Give me a break! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:GIS info is sensitive? Give me a break! (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, the funny thing is that much of what they do is done in the open. Over the years, I have worked on several projects the involved various groups (DARPA, CIA, NSA, and DOD). In several cases, the work was attributed in one context, but was actually used in another. The first time that this was done was at a major university. The 2'nd at a quasi regular job.
Lowers the costs and with all the noise, it makes it hard to tell that it was anything interesting.
As to concern about what they do, I would worry less about what they do, and worry more about allowing the tech. to flow to DOJ( and by extension the FBI). Now, we are moving from what was professional groups (and down the road more autonomy will be restored) to politically-controlled groups. The tools that were available to NSA and CIA just a couple of years ago, will allows for total abuse under Patriot Act (I, II, and future).
Re:GIS info is sensitive? Give me a break! (Score:2)
GIS data most certainly can be sensitive, and you certainly haven't "proven" a thing - at best, you've stated an underwhelming, uninformed opinion, and been modded up for your efforts.
Re:GIS info is sensitive? Give me a break! (Score:3, Insightful)
Look at the NSA, CIA, random military bases. You're liable to be shot on sight if you sneak into them,...
So who ultimately decides the cutoff as to what we as taxpayers can see and what we can't?
How about using: ``If they can't justify shooting you on sight if you sneak in, they can't justify keeping the information you paid for secret.'' as our criterion?
In this situation they made the proper choice, but I can't trust our judicial system in light of the 'other' rulings they've made.
Me, too.
This sort of wisdom does seem out of character for the courts in general. Not all judges are stupid, crooked, vicious scum, but that's the way to bet. Maybe this fellow is a principled exception to the general rule. Maybe he was just too stoned, and gave the wrong instructions to the clerk who wrote the ruling.
Re:GIS info is sensitive? Give me a break! (Score:2)
Re:GIS info really *IS* sensitive. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:GIS info really *IS* sensitive. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:GIS info is sensitive? Give me a break! (Score:2)
I dunno...there are some VERY potent chemicals out there. I've always heard that people like John Lennon and other famous people in the early days of LSD, had pints or more of liquid acid....which could have been enough to turn on a whole city.
Dunno how factual it was...but, it seemed feasible at the time...
All the information is available elsewhere (Score:2)
Its like banning "google maps".
Re:All the information is available elsewhere (Score:5, Insightful)
It's worse. Google is a for-profit company that creates software solutions for the public using public data. If they are charged for the use of the GIS data, fine.
The public, who paid for and even submitted the information stored in the GIS databases, should be able to freely examine and use the information as they see fit. There should be no restrictions on this, especially monetary or it will be another double-fuck fleecing of the public.
Yay, we paid for the taxes to collect this data and wasted our free time giving you Census information and now we have to pay to see it used in a useful manner?
If someone banned Google Maps I wouldn't really care. If the governments continue to close up our free access to information I will continue to get annoyed.
Re:All the information is available elsewhere (Score:3, Insightful)
In this era of paranoia (Score:5, Interesting)
===
Not that I think we should be paranoid, I think this hysteria over terrorism is exactly what both sides want (the government gets to take more control and the terrorists get to disrupt our way of life and our happiness)
NPR link (Score:3, Informative)
and here is a link to a blog that refers to the photographer's rights: http://blog.photoblogs.org/2004/06/photographers_
Re:NPR link (Score:2)
^_^
Re:NPR link (Score:2)
[actually not a lot of people say that]
[the ones who do are usually bald]
[we do it to feel better]
[I'VE SAID TO MUCH! RUN!!!]
Re:In this era of paranoia (Score:2)
He only took some black and white shots of a dead tree standing near a parking lot near a carnival in L.A. just after closing time.
Within minutes he was surrounded by security guards and little time later he was taken away by the fbi.
It seems there was a little powerhouse behind the tree which was on the list of suspected terrorist targets. They questioned him for 4 hours until he could go.
My younger brother is white and Dutch, I can only imagine the trouble he'd been into if he were an exchange student from Egypt or some other Arab state.
Re:In this era of paranoia (Score:2)
Re:In this era of paranoia (Score:2)
I dunno, sounds a bit paranoid to me.
Touche'... (Score:2)
Why oh WHY did I ever have to learn morse code?!
Re:In this era of paranoia (Score:3, Insightful)
Guy parks his cruiser like 50 feet away sneaks up on me (I see him coming, he thinks he fucking Sam Fisher or something all crouched down and running from shrub to shrub. Then he gets to me whips on his gun in one hand. (it was pointed down atleast) his flashlight right in my eyes.
He's all like what are doing here. What are taking pictures off!"
"dude its for night photography for a class I'm taking. Could you turn the camera off and stop ruining my film."
What did he think I was doing recon for Al Qaida at 2 am with 30 year old 35MM camera? I seem to meet all the moronic Cops...
Re:In this era of paranoia (Score:4, Informative)
Re:In this era of paranoia (Score:3, Interesting)
What do the cops do to you if you look at FBI buildings or oil refineries in satellite images on Google maps?
This doesn't surprise me at all (Score:5, Insightful)
If the other 168 municipalities have to be wide open to publicly availible taxpayer funded satellite scans then so should they. I have a feeling however that they will keep on fighting this decision until Hell freezes over.
Re:This doesn't surprise me at all (Score:2)
This is excellent. (Score:3, Interesting)
Hey... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Hey... (Score:3)
Cue the Classists, Please... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Cue the Classists, Please... (Score:2, Interesting)
Generically, Greenwich is one of about 169 municipalities in the state of CT.
Specifically, it has become overrun with the sort of rich people that give rich people a bad name. The sort of charicatures that leftists and arachists always speak of. Snotty, snobbish, self-important, "do-you-know-who-I-am?!" types. The town is firmly in the political hands of these people and the police could care less if you're a renter in an apartment on the main drag (they exist, more of them closer to the NY border), but if you live in places like Belle Haven, they are practically your private soldiers. I used to be harassed by their police as "not looking like" I "belong here" every single night I had third shift maintenance to do on a telecom co-location. Corporate van, uniform, badge, cell phone, manager's contact info, and they still insinuated I looked like I shouldn't be there.
I would take claims of their PD doing racial/ethnic/economic profiling as a given.
I used to work in broadband/telecom down there and when they make impossible demands on "the help" they aren't mere stupid common users. They already pointedly KNOW what they are asking for is improper, they simply expect the laws of physics and reality to be bent for their benefit on their command.
I lost count of the times I was asked to enter through "the servant's entrance" when working there.
You can say this is too harsh, but unless you've experienced the insulting and condescending stares and words from these people yourself, you have no idea. The worst part is, they absolutely do not care about dispelling this image and work very hard to reinforce it.
And are they really this paranoid? Yes. I've been to homes where I was escorted by paid security guards from the front gates through the building and was pointedly told not to look in certain directions. They actually thought they could continue their personal activities in the house right in front of visiting technicians, and MAKE the technician not look in certain directions as if a horse wearing blinders. Several homes even had their man friday duct tape sheets over alarm panels and sensors around the house so I wouldn't see them and thus be able to break in later with that knowledge.
That's what outsiders need to know. If you want examples of really horrendously crazy paranoid snobs like something out of Caddyshack, Greennwich is your place to look.
Re:Cue the Classists, Please... (Score:2)
GIS data is public data (Score:4, Insightful)
As as GIS guy, I kinda expect some limits (Score:2)
Re:As as GIS guy, I kinda expect some limits (Score:2, Interesting)
Restricting access to information is retarded. Rules should deal with actions, not with information.
Re:As as GIS guy, I kinda expect some limits (Score:2)
Re:As as GIS guy, I kinda expect some limits (Score:2)
Re:As as GIS guy, I kinda expect some limits (Score:2)
It's one thing to ask about your backyard, it's another thing entirely to ask about everybody's backyards.
I move into a house with a burglar alarm. I might well call the police and ask if the alarm is connected to their systems. Reasonable question, especially if I could show that I in fact live at that address.
Now I call them back and ask, "Say, who else has alarms connected to your system?"
Not really the same question, is it? The first is a Harry Homeowner request, the second is J. Random Burglar.
Similarly restricting knowledge of gas pipelines and such isn't entirely unreasonable.
Re:As as GIS guy, I kinda expect some limits (Score:2)
Re:As as GIS guy, I kinda expect some limits (Score:2)
But!!! (Score:2)
What if I want to dig a hole? I should just dig and hope I don't cut off power/water/phone service to the whole neighbourhood?
Re:But!!! (Score:2)
Re:As as GIS guy, I kinda expect some limits (Score:2)
And you might also notice the swath of cleared land and meter stations along it, along with compressors and taps. Who gives a crap about a piddling residential line when you could easily find one of the main pipelines that services the northeast? These things carry billions of cubic feet of gas EVERY DAY.
Don't worry -- the data's already been "cleansed" (Score:3, Interesting)
Don't blame Microsoft for that... (Score:2)
...or Google Maps [google.com] for that matter, either. They both use the same USGS Urban Area Ortho pictures that NASA World Wind [nasa.gov] can use. (I don't mean you, I mean any pending "M$" conspiracy theorists.)
Blame the government for trying to keep their own buildings from being seen in the Urban Ortho. (Interestingly, it's not concealed in the somewhat-lower-quality aerial ortho, also a USGS creation. [microsoft.com])
Re:Don't blame Microsoft for that... (Score:2)
Apparently... (Score:2)
Re:Don't worry -- the data's already been "cleanse (Score:2)
Re:Don't worry -- the data's already been "cleanse (Score:2)
Like, they didn't know this would happen? (Score:5, Informative)
When I worked for Washington State Department of Natural Resources [wa.gov], they had a formal system for selling their data that included a licensing agreement! Not sure if it was ever challenged in court or how they were able to justify licensing their data.
BTM
If they're that rich... (Score:3)
In NYS, GIS data is available under FOIA but copyr (Score:5, Informative)
-russ
Re:In NYS, GIS data is available under FOIA but co (Score:2)
I guess GPS would work in a pinch (Score:3)
BWP
Are they serious? (Score:5, Funny)
Court: "Saddam is in jail."
Greenwich: "We meant Iran. There is great personal risk to our over-priced coffee industry."
Court: "I think you can survive."
Greenwich: "What about trade secrets. A map of our town is a trade secret."
Court: "You are aware that they are available at the corner gas station for a dollar fifty, right?"
Greenwich: "Not the electronic kind."
Court: "...which is free at Mapquest."
Greenwich: "You are abusing your authority!"
Court: "Get out before I have you shot."
Greenwich: "The next time you are drinking an double express mocha and a AGM-154 JSOW lands on you, just remember, we told you so."
Court: "Next case!"
Continuation (Score:3, Funny)
Balifff: "Yes?"
Court: "Judging from the name, Greenwich likely voted for Ralph Nader, and is a Satanist. Please take the prisoner to Gitmo."
Baliff: "Gladly, Worm, your honor!"
Court: "Now, call the schoolmaster!"
Finally! (Score:2)
Take the A Train (Score:2)
Declassify NYC maps? (Score:2)
Re:Declassify NYC maps? (Score:2)
Re:Take the A Train (Score:2)
NYC can still protect themselves by obfuscating the data. For example, they could have the maps designed by a committee. Bureaucratic committees are one of the most successful tools for obfuscating data.
If they need the highest level of security, they might considering adding several PhD candidates to the committee. That should make the subway maps to just about everyone.
Re:Take the A Train (Score:2)
Another unfunded mandate (Score:2)
Google Maps (Score:2, Funny)
It's like the porn channel on cable and nobody has a subscription. You cross a line an you go from crystal clear images to scrambled at the edges and then it changes to
"We're sorry, but we don't
have information at this zoom
level for this region.
Try zooming out for a broader look."
Where does Google get their images from and how powerful are these people that they get their area wiped off of the map?
Real reason for hiding public GIS data (Score:4, Insightful)
For some reason, they see providing any local information for "free" as a threat to their free-wheeling and dealing. Because GIS exoses local environmental violations, incompatible land-use practices, zoning violations, land holdings and conglomeration, and so forth. In recent years, GIS has helped to show redlining in communities (keeping poor people out of rich neighborhoods), gerrymandering school and election districts, and so forth.
Some cities mainly use GIS for fine tuning when and where to ticket parking violators. Washington DC was big on this. Some states (like Michigan) ban such practices, but by and large, local governments use GIS for activities that have not been fully sanctioned. Yet they are loathe to share GIS data with anyone else. For instance in Atlanta, they don't even share this information with other departments within the city or regional government. Their protectionist attitude puts to shame IP litigation we now see in the tech field.
I made most of my money in not setting up GIS systems, but how to keep the data away from public, public officials, and citizens' groups. The major software companies, mainly ESRI, have helped in this endeavor by creating tools to work around easy sharing. Only recently with OpenGIS and other initiatives, did this stranglehold began to loosen.
Anyway, needless to say, I don't work in this field anymore. And I sleep well now.
Re:i doubt it was the property line that concerned (Score:2)
Re:i doubt it was the property line that concerned (Score:2)
"Stolen" ? (Score:5, Interesting)
Is this a first? Authorized and legal duplication of information is being called "theft" here.
"Especially since GIS people put so much work in the converges, then see it taken and abused by the public."
And here is the other thing wrong with your statement. Government road crews put a lot of hard work into building and maintaining roads, don't they? And yet, if it is not a toll road, you will be shocked to find that there are businesses that actually have company cars and trucks using these roads. Such an abuse! And libraries? There are legions of nonfiction authors who research those free library books and then make a profit from the information when they sell their books. I bet you agree that it would be a great improvement if libraries charged $10 for each book checked out! Stop those profiteers from stealing information!
Re:Will they charge stiff fees? (Score:2, Funny)