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Patents Intel Hardware

Intel Claims No DRM 350

pallmall1 writes "The Inquirer has an official statement from Intel claiming the Computerworld Today Australia story from May 27th was incorrect, and the Pentium D and the 945 chipsets do not have unannounced DRM technology embedded in them. The statement says Intel products support or will support several copy protection schemes such as Macrovision, DTCP-IP, COPP, HDCP, CGMS-A, and others. The statement concludes: 'While Intel continues to work with the industry to support other content protection technologies, we have not added any unannounced DRM technologies in either the Pentium D processor or the Intel 945 Express Chipset family.' The Intel Chip with DRM story has been previously reported on Slashdot. Update: 06/05 20:12 GMT by Z : Fixed the Macrovision link.
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Intel Claims No DRM

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  • by Akaihiryuu ( 786040 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @03:33PM (#12730537)
    If it's unannounced, I don't expect them to admit to it even if it is really there. The ID on the Pentium 3 was still there as well, even though they claimed to have disabled it after the uproar.
    • Well (Score:5, Insightful)

      by mcc ( 14761 ) <amcclure@purdue.edu> on Sunday June 05, 2005 @03:36PM (#12730559) Homepage
      Now that they've said it isn't in there, if it turns out later that they were lying and it is in there, isn't that class-action-lawsuit worthy material?

      Because I for one consider a chip which purposefully takes control of my computer away from me and gives it to someone else without my authorization to be broken.
      • Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)

        by nEoN nOoDlE ( 27594 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @05:30PM (#12731034)
        Because I for one consider a chip which purposefully takes control of my computer away from me and gives it to someone else without my authorization to be broken.

        If you consider that to be broken, then you've got a funny definition of broken, because I consider that same thing to be criminal. I'd much rather have a processor that doesn't work instead of one that you've described.
        • Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)

          by SacredNaCl ( 545593 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @10:59PM (#12732749) Journal
          The key words here are do not have unannounced DRM. They already announced the DRM in their press release, so apparently it just doesn't have some other form of DRM other than the vaguely announced DRM it already has.... This is just playing with words, they haven't changed anything. Its still shipping with the DRM in the chipset, fully activated and ready to go.

      • by HiThere ( 15173 ) * <`ten.knilhtrae' `ta' `nsxihselrahc'> on Sunday June 05, 2005 @06:25PM (#12731302)
        Interestingly enough the grounds for a class action lawsuit have recently become a lot more stringent. Basically, forget any help from the feds, though I'm not certain that state statutes have been preeempted.

        That happened earlier this year.
      • by coaxial ( 28297 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @06:38PM (#12731397) Homepage
        Because I for one consider a chip which purposefully takes control of my computer away from me and gives it to someone else without my authorization to be broken.

        You''re missing how things like this is done. It will work exactly like licensing agreements. "You don't want to enable (Dis)Trusting Compuing? Well then, the OS won't run. Sucks for you." "Oh you're running an OS that doesn't use DRM? Well, we won't enable these features." No one steals the authority over your computer, you cede it.
      • Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)

        by KillShill ( 877105 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @07:34PM (#12731675)
        they've already started.

        it's already in audio cards/drivers.

        something called "secure audio path".

        it's a way of crippling your sound card; preventing it from recording from its inputs if it detects a copy protected stream.

        next up is video. check out some of those old NGSCB/palladium screenshots and intel "lagrande" slides... they are implementing encryption aka DRM from the video chip to the display device.. such that you won't have control over what you can do with the data, as you can right now. no more taking screenshots, capturing video without permission etc etc.

        they are using the BTF (boil the frog) method. longhorn will only have one or two of the features and they'll build upon it in each release.

        if you cannot figure out that this is something no "individual" customer wants, then you need to read more carefully. there is nothing beneficial about reducing machines capabilities. then you consider that perhaps they don't consider end-users customers, then it becomes more clear. sort of like the tv/media advertising business. you are the product, they sell you to their customers.

        something will be done about it... but they'll still keep boiling the frog... so when they don't get full DRM in 2006/2007, they'll introduce one new feature each year, for the next 10-20 years. that way those moronic people who pay for products but aren't customers won't notice.

        keep treating us badly, and please digging your own grave. of course you won't notice you're digging, since that requires a modicum of intelligence.
        • Re:Well (Score:4, Interesting)

          by Baricom ( 763970 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @08:03PM (#12731870)
          I don't understand the answer to this, and perhaps somebody more knowledgable can explain it to me.

          Why are the electronics and software people so keen to add DRM? It's an added expense in research and development (especially if they're after secure DRM, which would presumably require much more development). Unlike the television analogy, the general public is the customer in all of these cases - they're paying for the computer, processor, and/or Windows.

          Are these companies getting kickbacks or something? It seems to me that the logical thing to do if you were a lobbiest for the electronics industry is to tell the PDTAA (Public Domain Theft Associations of America) to go shove it, and tell the manufacturers you represent to boycott DRM so their customers don't raise a big stink when they realize their new purchase is crippled.
    • by DietCoke ( 139072 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @03:36PM (#12730560)
      This is like the question "Do you still beat your wife?"

      For god's sake. Intel's been decent overall, when did it become their job to discount every allegation just to make some folks happy?
      • by ZephyrXero ( 750822 ) <zephyrxero@nosPAM.yahoo.com> on Sunday June 05, 2005 @03:43PM (#12730599) Homepage Journal
        "when did it become their job to discount every allegation just to make some folks happy?"

        The day they started selling chips to their customers.
      • by dalleboy ( 539331 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @05:20PM (#12730988) Homepage
        Mu
    • "Nope...no DRM. These chips do however offer our new "DRP" technology...aka...Digital Rights Prevension, 'cause let's face it...you guys don't deserve any."
    • If it's unannounced, I don't expect them to admit to it even if it is really there. The ID on the Pentium 3 was still there as well, even though they claimed to have disabled it after the uproar.

      Can't there be massive returns saying they sold a product different than advertised? A class action lawsuit?

      And what if the NSA wants an ID on the Pentium 3, can they force Intel to have it, while also forcing Intel to keep quiet about it?

      I know in the patriot act, the FBI now has powers to do searches without a warrent, and to order the people involved with the search to deny any knowledge you were searched. They do this with banks all the time. They search the account of Mr. T, then order the bank to never tell Mr. T that his account information was taken by the government.

      Since Intel is so large, and there are not that many alternative choices (AMD), I can see how it would be easy for government to make these orders and for very few people to know.

      And if there is an ID on a pentium 3 chip, how does the internet trafic comming out of a machine look any differet? Is it easy to detect and alter? Is this like the dots printed on HP's that tell the make and where it was sold, to stop people from printing money?

    • by SeventyBang ( 858415 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @05:20PM (#12730987)
      we have not added any unannounced

      I agree completely. Now we have to go back through all of their announcements, minor and major, to determine if there's something which has been said which can be interpreted as DRM.

      This is a case of where the media need to reask the question: "Q: Instead of making us reread everything to see if something has been intimated to know what was or wasn't announced, will there be DRM technology incorporated?" There are only two answers: Yes. and No. And if they appear evasive, the media either needs to repeat the question or realize the answer is yes.

      And because the spectre of DRM still looms, there are going to be plenty of people who will hold back purchasing the Intel chip until someone reports a problem (you really can't prove there isn't one - back to the old issue of trying to prove a negative) or there will be a mass exodus of people who want to control their environment to AMD; i.e. those of you who haven't already done so.

      Intel et al. are going to continue to find themselves in a pickle: do they bed with fellow corporate entities which exert pressure upon them to incorporate these technologies to make it more & more difficult for us to cheat or face "election day" where everyone votes with their checkbook. Some (on the pro-DRM side) may feel people will vote one way with their personal equipment and be forced, in spite of their decision-making position, to make a different choice in the corporate environment; i.e. a "pebbles vs. boulders" situation but it's been my experience the corporate world really doesn't care what's under the covers if the budget and end-users are both happy.

      The only thing (other than AMD) which would help keep Intel in check is the same as US politics: three participants. Then it goes from zero-sum to cut-throat. The strategy changes dramatically and it's a lot more fun to watch!
  • Liar Paradox (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Keeper ( 56691 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @03:35PM (#12730549)
    "[Intel said the] Pentium D and the 945 chipsets do not have unannounced DRM technology embedded in them"

    Is this like one of those "This statement is false" paradoxes?
  • by OmegaBlac ( 752432 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @03:36PM (#12730551)
    "It's a trap!"
  • You missed a word. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by eofpi ( 743493 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @03:36PM (#12730554) Homepage
    The statement says "no previously unannounced DRM". That's a far cry from saying "no DRM whatsoever", which the submitter (and editor) seems to take it as.

    They've mentioned TCPA-style hardware DRM before; it's just been a while. So, for that matter, have AMD and Via, so running to them won't help much.

    • by Vlad_the_Inhaler ( 32958 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @03:47PM (#12730617)
      Since they had not officially announced DRM support in the Pentium D processor and the 945 Express Chipset, I think those folks at 'The Register' are justified in taking this Intel statement at face value.

      Intel also appeared to have realised that people are 'not keen' on this technology so maybe there is hope yet that it won't become mandatory on all Processors/Chipsets. I suppose the best we can hope for in the ling term is DRM on hardware sold to corporations and none on hardware sold to private customers.

      What is the current situation with DVD regonal codes? They were supposed to be mandatory, but I thought it was still easy enough to get stuff without them.
      • by jimicus ( 737525 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @03:55PM (#12730643)
        What is the current situation with DVD regonal codes?

        Here in the UK it is trivial to get a region-free DVD player from a high-street store, and nobody will bat an eyelid. Many of the cheap chinese models are region-free from the factory.

        Non-region 2 DVDs are somewhat scarce in the shops, though I understand Amazon will deliver anywhere (and they make clear if a DVD will require a multi-region player).
      • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 05, 2005 @04:16PM (#12730747)
        Actually corporations would be the first to balk. If a virus writer gets his hands on the DRM-layer keys, he could whipe out all the hard drives on all the computers in a corporation, make the hardware prevent installation of any media, and use the corporate computers as a distributed spam bot. Alternately, the same technology that can be used to format hard drives remotely (without the knowledge of sysadmins) can be used to plant copyright infringing files on computers. If those files are kiddie porn, someone is going to be seriously in trouble. If the sysadmin is able to log the time when the porn was added and how it got there, the company may escape procecution, but if now, some's head is going to roll. Of course, it works both ways, if the RIAA accuses you of having copyrighted material, you can always claim that the RIAA put it there after you proved to them that "Madonna - Rain.mpg" was a shot of "La Madonna in Italy taken during the rainy period". The RIAA simply put it there because they didn't want to get counter-sued by you.

        This is very dangerous technology. After DeCSS, you'd think that the media corps would have realized that keys can be cracked. After Nimda, you'd think that people would have learned how dangerious unpatchable systems (like the Intel system) would be.

    • Re: AMD and TCPA/DRM (Score:2, Informative)

      by codergeek42 ( 792304 ) <peter@thecodergeek.com> on Sunday June 05, 2005 @03:47PM (#12730618) Homepage Journal
      So, for that matter, have AMD and Via, so running to them won't help much.

      AMD is supposedly making their hardware DRM entirely optional [geek.com], though. :-)
      • Re: AMD and TCPA/DRM (Score:3, Informative)

        by NutscrapeSucks ( 446616 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @04:10PM (#12730719)
        This is a complete non-statement. Hardware DRM was always intended to be optional. PCs are backwards-compatible, so you always can run an OS that knows nothing about DRM chips.

        The problem only comes when you are required to (or want to) use an application that uses Hardware DRM, in which case you will need to turn it on.
        • by bit01 ( 644603 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @06:16PM (#12731258)

          The problem only comes when you are required to (or want to) use an application that uses Hardware DRM, in which case you will need to turn it on.

          Or you want to be compatible with such a platform (e.g. to exchange documents, files or email messages), and that platform has decided to lock you out. This is free market destroying stuff.

          ---

          I'm not worried about the use of DRM. I'm worried about the abuse.

        • But if internet access starts requiring this...

          Of course, it's optional. Just like turning over all you health records to the insurance company is optional. Just like paying taxes is optional. But the cost of exercising that option can be quite high.
      • Re: AMD and TCPA/DRM (Score:5, Informative)

        by Alsee ( 515537 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @04:50PM (#12730858) Homepage
        AMD is supposedly making their hardware DRM entirely optional

        That story is two and a half years old. I can clarify the actual situation and industry planned future.

        When Longhorn comes out in about a year it will only fully function on a Trusted Compliant computer. It will run with a reduced graphics interface and various other portions of the system will not work at all on non-Trusted hardware or if you decline to "opt-in" (if you leave the Trust chip off).

        No PC hardware maker can realistically survive selling hardware that is not compatible with the latest version of Windows. No one would buy it, and anyone who does will return it when Windows refuses to run properly. If you ask Microsoft about the problem they will blame it on the hardware manufacture for making "incompatible" hardware.

        AMD has announced a project to make Trusted Computing Group compliant chips, exactly the same specifications as Intel is implementing. In fact Intel is shipping an "inactive" version of it already inside the Prescott CPUs and probably others. Exactly the same specification Transmeta is already shipping inside some of their CPUs.

        The specifcation requires that the chip be inactive when you buy the computer. Naturally the first thing Windows will do on startup is ask to activate it.

        If you buy a coputer without it, or you refuse to turn it on, you will be increasingly screwed. As I said Windows will only run in a brain damaged mode. You will be unable to install any software that makes use of the Trust system. Applications, games, all sorts of stuff will require a Trusted install. Without the Trust system you cannot install, register, activate, and *DECRYPT* the software at all. New file types will be unreadable if you do not "opt-in". You will be increasingly locked out of websites if you do not "opt-in".

        And best of all the Trusted Computing has announced a specification called Trusted Network Connect (TNC). Microsoft has issued a press release that they are implementing TNC, but they call it SAP Secure Access Protection. What does this system do? A network access point uses it. When you request a 'net connection, it first checks if you have a Trust chip. If you do, it then checks that you are running an approved and compliant operating system then checks that you are running all mandatory and compliant software. If you are not you get "quarantined", denied internet access. If you do not "opt-in" to the trust system and run mandatory and approved software then you are denied internet access.

        It's all documented right on the Trusted Computing Group website. Of course THEY give it a positive spin. The system can ensure you are not infected by a virus or trojan and it can ensure you are running a mandatory and approved firewall. This way the network can protect itself against you being infected and spreading viruses and worms on their network.

        Obviously ISP's can't start making this mandatory right now. The Trust system doesn't really begin to roll out until the Longhorn release next summer. It would then take another few years for the majority of PCs to be replaced. PCs get replaced rather quickly through the normal obselecence and upgrade cycle. You can potentially see mandatory Trust compliance for internet access somewhere between 2010 and 2015.

        Oh, by the way... the President's Cyber Security Advisor gave a speech at the Washington DC Global Tech summit calling on ISPs to plan on making exactly this sort of system a mandatory part of their Terms of Service for internet access. There's a transcript of the speech on the BSA website. He calls for ISPs to "Secure the National Information Infrastructure" against "Terrorist Attack".

        Oh, and have you noticed the stories lately about taking internet government out from under United States Government control? ICANN and the other organisations? Obviously the world will not allow the United States to impose this sort of system on them. Instead Internet Governance will be turned over to UN groups. T
        • by Monkelectric ( 546685 ) <slashdot AT monkelectric DOT com> on Sunday June 05, 2005 @04:59PM (#12730881)
          Thats the scariest thing Ive ever heard. Lucikly nobody will stand for it :)
          • by Alsee ( 515537 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @06:28PM (#12731320) Homepage
            Lucikly nobody will stand for it :)

            The problem is that as it is rolled out, it is the people who do *not* adopt it who increasingly get locked out and increasingly suffer.

            The new McDonalds Happymeal will come with a FREE CD! COLLECT THEM ALL! And one CD will be DRM Britney Spears music that only plays on a Trusted Enhanced computer. Another free CD will be a Spongbob Squarepants game that will only install on a Trusted Enhanced computer. And annoying little Tyffyni will whine to mom and dad:
            Why doesn't it work on our compyooooter?!
            They work at my friend's house on their compyooooter!
            Why do we have a crappy old compyooooter?!
            We need a new compyooooter!!!!


            And mom and dad will go out and buy a New and Enhanced and Compatible computer just to get the damn *FREE* CD to play and shut the kid up.

            And that's how it will be forced on you and me. Because it will be normal computers that spit out error messages, normal computers that stop working on teh new stuff... and the majority of the public will buy these new system just to get the damn machine to work right.

            -
        • by pegasustonans ( 589396 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @06:31PM (#12731349)
          Yeah, that's when I delete every windows partition and switch fully to Linux.
        • by Dachannien ( 617929 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @06:31PM (#12731351)
          Could such a scheme be foiled by running "untrusted" software within a "trusted" virtual machine that interfaces with the outside world?

        • This system have 2 flaws. First, you can't verify that another system uses TNC by the network. It can always tell you what you want to listen and not complain. Second, FOSS projects can break the DRM stuff and run on a general porpouse computer (not a TCPA machine) telling the programs that it is TCPA compilant.

          Not that TCPA group don't intend to do what you say*, but I think that FOSS have a sucessfull defensive strategy to use.

          Normaly I would say "I don't think they are so stupid to persue something as flawed." but anti piracy fight has created several stupid moviments aready, so, why not one more. Anyway, I reserve myself the right of being more paranoid than you and think that their strategy is stronger and unknown.

          • by dustmite ( 667870 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @07:10PM (#12731559)

            "Trusted computing" is not about "anti-piracy", it's not about "virus protection" and it's not about "protecting copyrighted materials". These are all being spun as excuses for implementing DRM. But the real reason for this is so for the industry giants to be able to create a powerful cartel that controls the platform, deciding who is or is not "trusted" to develop software --- in other words, they're trying to never have to worry about competition again.

            This is not paranoia, it makes perfect sense for them to do what they're doing, and it is absolutely the most logical thing for them to do. They will definitely try to do this; whether or not they succeed is questionable, although they definitely have a decent chance at succeeding. But think about it - they have everything to win and nothing to lose by just trying this.

          • by dustmite ( 667870 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @07:20PM (#12731605)

            It can always tell you what you want to listen and not complain.

            Actually with a salted key system, the only way to "always tell the server what it wants" is if the hardware DRM is reverse engineered and a virtual software implementation is written and used.

          • by Jay Carlson ( 28733 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @07:26PM (#12731635) Homepage
            First, you can't verify that another system uses TNC by the network. It can always tell you what you want to listen and not complain. Second, FOSS projects can break the DRM stuff and run on a general porpouse computer (not a TCPA machine) telling the programs that it is TCPA compilant.

            This is a little simplified:

            The TPM uses public key crypto to sign the PCR information. Each device has its own private key that never leaves the chip. So unless you can pry the lid off your tamper-resistant chip and microprobe the EEPROM contents to get the key, you can't lie about its PCR contents.

            If somebody does manage to do this, publishing this key information doesn't help much, because in some network access protocols, you'd have to authenticate with an identity associated with the source device. Oh yeah, and that key will get put on a revocation list.

            Believe it or not, not all security measures are designed by idiots. The consumer electronics manufacturers don't have a good batting average, and WEP was a disaster. But when real computer scientists, electrical engineers, and cryptographers are decently funded over many years to design something, don't expect black magic marker to be a countermeasure.
        • I call bullshit. (Score:3, Interesting)

          by PCM2 ( 4486 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @06:51PM (#12731464) Homepage
          This is "informative"? Care to cite a source for all this wisdom you're disseminating? I've heard nothing about special chips in any of the numerous Longhorn press releases (which keep getting re-issued as the ship date marches further and further forward). Microsoft's own page on Trustworthy Computing [microsoft.com] says they have no illusions that achieving "trustworthiness" will be a quick or easy thing, though it does say the initiative includes things as innovative as (whoah) integrating anti-spam and antivirus features into Outlook. Methinks you've got the tinfoil wrapped a little too tightly around your head.
          • by dustmite ( 667870 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @07:17PM (#12731586)

            You used Microsoft's page as your source? You're joking, right? Of course they're going to only put a positive spin on it ... I mean, these are the people who label the Media Player option to "collect information on every single thing I watch and send it to Microsoft" under the heading "Customer Experience Improvement Program".

            In other news, I consulted the Chinese government's website to get information on human rights abuses in China, and it just proved that everyone was making a fuss about nothing, there are no human rights abuses going on there. I also checked old Bob Mugabe's website to see if there is political violence being perpetrated there, but again it proved to me that all the fuss was over nothing. Etc.

          • by Alsee ( 515537 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @07:45PM (#12731762) Homepage
            Care to cite a source for all this wisdom you're disseminating?

            Sure, no problem! It's just that everything is scattered across the internet in bits and peices. Each point you want documented pretty much requires a different link.

            I've heard nothing about special chips in any of the numerous Longhorn press releases

            Microsoft Next-Generation Secure Computing Base - Technical FAQ: [microsoft.com]
            Q: What is the "SSC" component of NGSCB?
            A: "SSC" refers to the Security Support Component, a new PC hardware component that will be introduced as part of the NGSCB architecture. The SSC is a hardware module that can perform certain cryptographic operations and securely store cryptographic keys
            [...] The SSC also contains at least one RSA private key and an AES symmetric key, both of which are private to the SSC and are never exported from the chip. (The owner is forbidden to know his own keys, and the chip is required to self destruct if you try to read them out.)
            Q: What is the "TPM"? Is that the same as the SSC?
            A: The term "SSC" is generally interchangeable with "TPM" or trusted platform module. The TPM is a secure computing hardware module specified by the Trusted Computing Group


            Methinks you've got the tinfoil wrapped a little too tightly around your head.

            I admit it SOUNDS insane. However I just cited documentation from Microsoft themselves backing up the point you questioned. I can provide documentation on virtually every single point. If there is anything else you still do not believe, just be specific and ask.

            -
        • Re: AMD and TCPA/DRM (Score:3, Interesting)

          by NutscrapeSucks ( 446616 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @06:52PM (#12731466)
          [Longhorn] will run with a reduced graphics interface and various other portions of the system will not work at all on non-Trusted hardware

          Do you have a citation for this?

          I can see how some media features might be disabled on non-Trusted systems (this is even true of W2K/XP), but it seems to be a bit of stretch to think MS would gimp the touted graphical features because of unrelated missing hardware.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 05, 2005 @03:36PM (#12730558)
    DRM = DRM. whether announced or unannounced. You added support for DRM to your hardware. That means I can't buy Intel gear anymore. End of story.

    You can wrap it in acronyms. You can attempt to misdirect, obfuscate, or otherwise try to hide the fact that Intel sold out to corporate interests.

    No DRM. Not on my computer. Not now. Not ever.
    • by nurb432 ( 527695 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @04:07PM (#12730703) Homepage Journal
      Nor anyone else's, if you want to be consistant..

      Its all tainted at this point, unless you make your own.

      And if you are using anything that is fairly new, I bet you have some components of DRM that you ( or the rest of us consumers ) dont even realize are there.
    • by The Woodworker ( 723841 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @04:11PM (#12730726) Homepage

      or otherwise try to hide the fact that Intel sold out to corporate interests.

      Intel IS a corporate interest. How could they sell out to them? The word you're looking for is 'synergy'.

    • by badriram ( 699489 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @04:12PM (#12730730)
      I hope you realize that drm in some form already exists in your computer. For example macrovison is supported by ati, nvidia and intel. So waht are you doing to do, quite using graphics boards...

      Look, I realize some people on slashdot just hate drm, but there are others who think it is a perfectly valid system, as long as any of my rights are not affected.

      I would rather have my rights protected, and have value to the product that i purchased, than a bunch of theives to copy it to the extent it has no value what so ever.
      • by tepples ( 727027 ) <tepples@nospAm.gmail.com> on Sunday June 05, 2005 @04:41PM (#12730834) Homepage Journal

        I realize some people on slashdot just hate drm, but there are others who think it is a perfectly valid system, as long as any of my rights are not affected.

        Problem is that your rights most likely will be affected. See "The Right to Read" by Richard Stallman. [gnu.org]

      • by Alsee ( 515537 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @05:27PM (#12731023) Homepage
        drm... a perfectly valid system, as long as any of my rights are not affected.

        Impossible.

        The line between infringment and legal use often lies in intent. Short of a mindreading DRM system, it is physically impossible for any meaningful DRM system not to infringe upon Fair Use.

        Look, I realize some people on slashdot support drm, but there are others who think it is intolerable to criminalize noninfringing people in some misguided attempt to get DRM to actually work.

        I have a question: Do you support the DMCRA? [house.gov] Basiclly what it does is amend the DMCA to say that NONINFRINGING people do not go to prison. That no one goes to prison for making a NONINFRINGING use, or for information, products, or services needed for that NONINFRINGING use.

        -
        • by Frank T. Lofaro Jr. ( 142215 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @08:42PM (#12732035) Homepage
          If the DRM supporters weren't liars, they'd be forced to support the DMCRA instead of oppose it - or else they'd be inconsistent.

          See, they claim DRM only stops infringing uses. Even with the DMCRA, it would be illegal to circumvent any DRM that doesn't restrict non-infringing uses.

          They claim DRM doesn't do that (a lie). If it didn't - they would have nothing to worry about.

          But they know DRM does, and they like the fact that it is illegal to exercise fair use (which is NOT infringement) if in doing so one circumvents DRM.

          They like decimating fair use.

          By opposing the DMCRA, they will be exposed as hypocrites. If they do not, they will lose their power over us (beyond what copyright with fair use allows them to do).
      • by asdfghjklqwertyuiop ( 649296 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @07:36PM (#12731698)

        I would rather have my rights protected, and have value to the product that i purchased, than a bunch of theives to copy it to the extent it has no value what so ever.


        And I would rather have MY rights protected and have the value to the product that I purchased than have a bunch of corporate media congomerates siezing control of MY private property.

        So long as I am the one buying and owning MY computer I am only interested in my computer serving my own interests and managing MY digital rights.

        If people are violating the RIAA's copyrights, that is entirely the RIAA's problem. I am interested in looking out for my rights, not theirs. You should be also, because I assure you they are not. These people already have enough lawyers, lobbysists and corrupt politicians looking after their rights. If they are going to steal the rights to your own private property, they are most likely not counting on your help in doing it.

    • DRM = DRM. whether announced or unannounced. You added support for DRM to your hardware. That means I can't buy Intel gear anymore. End of story.

      You can wrap it in acronyms. You can attempt to misdirect, obfuscate, or otherwise try to hide the fact that Intel sold out to corporate interests.

      No DRM. Not on my computer. Not now. Not ever. Yeah, wait til you have a choice.

      If Intel, AMD, and Via all follow suit, then you will be doing your computing on a wooden instrument moving plastic beads around.

      • If Intel, AMD, and Via all follow suit, then you will be doing your computing on a wooden instrument moving plastic beads around.

        Or a Mac, or a Sun workstation, or...there are many platforms other than x86 which run Linux very well.

        • by linguae ( 763922 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @05:22PM (#12730998)

          You might want to hold that thought [slashdot.org]. Apple is planning on switching to Intel chips next year. Whether or not those chips will be x86s or not is something we'll find out tomorrow at the WWDC.

          We still have the Sun SPARC, though, but Sun workstations with SPARC chips aren't exactly affordable. Plus, Sun is already starting to sell Intel x86 workstations, meaning that there is a possiblity that the SPARC can disappear, too.

          Oh well, if Intel, AMD, and Via all follow suit, at least we still can buy and use old non-DRM-encumbered chips and run the latest FOSS software (or non-DRM-encumbered proprietary software). We might have to put up with our old and slow chips when everybody else is running their terahertz machines, but at least we're still computing freely and without any encumberances.

          • You might want to hold that thought [slashdot.org]. Apple is planning on switching to Intel chips next year. Whether or not those chips will be x86s or not is something we'll find out tomorrow at the WWDC.

            Yeah, I remembered about that just after I posted. The point remains, thanks to Pegasos [pegasosppc.com], though they're not really cheap either.

          • You missunderstand how insidious Trusted Computing rollout is. There is no reason to hold onto old 'non-DRM' machines. The new machines can do everything and anything an old computer can do.

            The new computers come with something EXTRA and optional. A new handcuff mode. In normal mode it *is* a normal old computer. You can just buy a new computer and use it in normal old mode. This is how they plan to ensure *everyone* buys Trusted Compliant standard hardware - there's no reason not to.

            The catch is that the new software and new files and new websites will only work in handcuff mode. If you are on an old computer, or if you refuse to activate handcuff mode on a new computer, then none of the new stuff works. Old computers get locked out of more and more. Without handcuff mode you are made to suffer more and more. You won't be able to read your mother's e-mail or your boss's e-mail unless you enter handcuff mode. Your mother or boss is going to blame you if you can't read their mail. They're going to complain that you should ave a new compatible computer, that it's your fault.

            And in five to ten years you may not be able to get on the internet at all without handcuff mode.

            -
  • by billstewart ( 78916 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @03:38PM (#12730566) Journal
    OK, so they've actually announced all the DRM as "features". Doesn't mean anybody realized the damage that those features they could do, except the folks on the Dark Side.
  • TERRIBLE Link (Score:5, Informative)

    by mattdev121 ( 727783 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @03:42PM (#12730593) Homepage
    Macrovision has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with macromedia.

    The Real Macrovision [wikipedia.org] was developed by a company called Macrovision [macrovision.com] and is used to prevent copying of VHS and DVD video streams with data that interrupts the picture.
  • But... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by gregor-e ( 136142 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @03:43PM (#12730596) Homepage
    Doesn't having DRM on board just mean that the user can successfully play DRM'ed IP they purchase? Is there anything in this DRM scheme that prevents construction of arbitrary device drivers that divert the un-DRM'ed content on it's way to the speakers/screen?
  • by bersl2 ( 689221 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @03:49PM (#12730621) Journal
    Also, I think everybody should look at this roadmap [c627627.com]. If you look at the chips for the upcoming socket M2, and also the X2 processors that will be shipping in the coming weeks, they are all supposed to have the Presidio "security technology." Isn't that a euphamism for the same thing we're accusing Intel of putting in their chips? I would like it if somebody would get to the bottom of this.
    • by Alsee ( 515537 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @06:11PM (#12731229) Homepage
      Isn't that a euphamism for the same thing we're accusing Intel of putting in their chips?

      Yes. It takes a separate source to document each step, but it is documented that AMD Presidio == Intel La Grande == Trusted Computing Group's Trusted Platform Module specification == Microsoft Palladium "Security Support Component"

      You'll also not that Presidio and "Pacifica Virtualization Technology" appear together in Q2 2006. Intel also has a "Virtualization Technology". This is the hardware support for Microsoft's Palladium isolated memory system. It allows software and data to be locked inside a memory "compartment". Even the operating system itself is locked out, that way even the operating system itself cannot peek at memory and defeat a DRM music application for example.

      It's hard to dig up any specifications on this Virtualization Technology, but I've seen indications that it *may* involve encrypting the ram itself. If so, software and data would be decrypted/encrypted only when it enters/leaves the CPU internal cache. Even physicaly hacking the hardware to directly read or alter RAM would not do any good. The only way to beat the system would be to physically rip open the CPU itself. And the Trusted Computing specification requires that the chips be boobytrapped to self destruct if it detects you attempting this.

      One of the IMP ThinkPad commercials already advertized that they contained 'security chips' that 'self destructed' if you attempt to remove them. Of course they were citing it as security against hackers and theives. They do not mention that the system is explicitly designed to be secure against the owner himself. That it self destructs if the owner attempts to get his own keys out.

      -
    • by CastrTroy ( 595695 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @06:26PM (#12731309)
      The Presidio technology is supposed to prevent viruses, kind of the the NX bit. It has nothing at all to do with trusted computing or DRM. It's there to make computing more secure. Or at least that's what they're telling us. :S
  • True Lies (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @03:57PM (#12730653) Homepage Journal
    Even if their denial of including hidden DRM tech is completely true, it justifies the original story, and the community reaction against the idea which clearly produced this denial. Preemptive criticism of such tech from early adopters and qualified critics is valuable. Once the DRM is in the chips, it's much more costly to get it out. And some critics will be quiet, accepting the fait accompli as less likely to be reversed than other priorities with less committed vendor investment.

    A major problem with the press these days is their total disinterest in covering a "developing story" of a threat, until it has already caused irreparable damage. While threateners are much better at keeping threats secret until they do that damage. Even worse, many of the threats come from preemptive actions that do much damage, before the press reports on the threat itself, or even the preemption, until it's too late.

    Julian Bajkowski, in his CTA article [computerworld.com.au] took a vague Intel announcement that new chipsets "support" Microsoft DRM to mean that DRM itself is embedded in the chipsets. Since MS DRM requires all kinds of tech in the chips to support its features that are much more general purpose than just DRM (even simple 8086 memory access and register logic "supports DRM"), that leap is unsubstantiated speculation, though possible. So Bajkowski/CTA presented the analysis unprofessionally - though the analysis itself is worthwhile to discuss.

    The modern press is afflicted with a major problem: its staff is so automated, so powerful in research, publishing, and fraternal immediate communication, that journalistic professionalism is no longer necessary to get one's content consumed. The lowered barrier to entry fills the field with unskilled workers; their essential reporting less useful. Because the bad logic undermines credibility, while the slick stationery, flashy handwriting, and express delivery market the message more widely than ever.

    I would point out the broad applicability of this criticism to most modern journalism, well beyond chip technology, but that scope seems obvious. Tech is a business long accustomed to PR masquerading as journalism, with informed professionals consuming such journalism with skepticism, cross referencing, and a twitchy BS detector. Beyond the tech beat, most news consumers just accept the journalism at face value. And base much more important decisions on it than which CPU to buy.
    • by PCM2 ( 4486 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @06:55PM (#12731485) Homepage
      Even if their denial of including hidden DRM tech is completely true, it justifies the original story, and the community reaction against the idea which clearly produced this denial.
      In other words, "When will Intel stop beating its wife?"
      • by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @07:29PM (#12731651) Homepage Journal
        If Intel's exwife is all beat up (nonmaskable unique CPU serial# broadcast), and its best friend is a pimp whose bitches are always beat to crap (Microsoft DRM), then, yeah, it's entirely justifiable to ask at least "are you beating your new wife?", even if she hasn't even gotten into her gown yet. And if someone asks "have you stopped beating your wife", they've perhaps gone too far, prematurely, but the rest of us will still want to know. Especially if she's going to live in our houses, and work in our offices, and bleed all over us.
  • It's there (Score:2, Informative)

    by northcat ( 827059 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @04:00PM (#12730670) Journal
    So they're not denying that DRM exists in Intel stuff. They're just saying that DRM is not there on Pentium D and the 945 chipset. Other Intel stuff have all that crap they listed - Macrovision, DTCP-IP, COPP, HDCP, CGMS-A, and "others".
  • by Darth Maul ( 19860 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @04:00PM (#12730672)

    So there is an uproar from various web sites, people, etc that there is DRM. Intel has to scramble and respond that there is not. Doesn't this give anyone in the business a SMALL CLUE that their customers actually *do not* want DRM?

    It's a shame that the market is not as strong as it should be in real capitalism to let people and their pocketbooks speak loudly. People will buy the next Intel chip that has DRM in it because Microsoft says to put it in.
  • by Xoo ( 178947 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @04:04PM (#12730687) Journal
    This entire slashdot news post is misleading.

    Intel's press release [theinquirer.net] is based on the fact on that Computerworld's article [computerworld.com.au] claims that Intel is adding unnounced DRM features to their new line of Pentiums. If anyone actually read the article, it does not say ANYWHERE anything about unannounced DRM features. In fact, I would say that the Computerworld article and the Intel press release are saying basically the same thing, with their respective biases present. Honestly, the only thing newsworthy here is that Intel announced the specific DRM implementations in their chipsets.

    Lastly, an opinion... DRM is not something I really would like to see implemented on the CPU-level. I don't think "THE MAN" should be controlling what I can or can't do with media that exists on my computer.
  • by mysidia ( 191772 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @04:09PM (#12730713)

    'Macrovision, DTCP-IP, COPP, HDCP, CGMS-A'

    These are all DRM technologies. The fact that they are not in themselves a complete DRM solution does not mean they are not DRM technologies: they are significant and have an effect on consumers' digital freedom when combined with other technologies.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 05, 2005 @04:12PM (#12730731)
    There is no DRM anywhere in our hardware! We do not tolerate any abuse of fair use, and those who do will be encouraged to throw themselves from the roof of our corporate headquarters.

    </iraqi information minister>
  • Serial # Fiasco (Score:5, Insightful)

    by maelstrom ( 638 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @04:15PM (#12730745) Homepage Journal
    It sounds like Intel may have learned a little something after the fiasco with the unique ID embedded on the chips. AMD took advantage of that gaffe rather quickly, and I believe that was one of the things that helped AMD with mindshare in the geek community. AMD execs would love to see Intel stumble with some braindead DRM in the chip, all they'd have to do is highlight their non-DRM nature and watch their sales increase.

  • Comment removed (Score:2, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @05:02PM (#12730897)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • by bit01 ( 644603 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @06:30PM (#12731336)

      I can see a future where the resale value of current hardware would be exceptionally high.

      Doesn't help if you need to network with other people's computers and the makers of those computers decide you can't be "trusted".

      I'll say it again, this is free market destroying stuff. The proponents of DRM really have a very naive view of human nature and what vendors are going to do once they have total control.

      ---

      DRM - Democracy Restriction & Manipulation

  • Or does this color the appleIntel story from a few days ago? I was thinking, with this Trusted Computring stuff, sounds like time to jump ship to Apple ...but if they switch to intel, there will be no place to hide.
  • by Strolls ( 641018 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @05:48PM (#12731129)
    All the planning charts and digital rights management orders have been on display at your local planning department in Alpha Centuri for 50 of your Earth years, so you've had plenty of time to lodge any formal complains and it's far too late to making a fuss about it now!
  • by KidSock ( 150684 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @07:39PM (#12731722)
    I don't understand why someone cannot simply fool DRM-ized software into thinking it's running on a DRM platform through emulation. Meaning why can't someone just implement the Pentium D's DRM chips in software?
  • by The_Wilschon ( 782534 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @08:00PM (#12731854) Homepage
    I, for one, piss in our new overlords coffee.
  • China? Taiwan? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by cpghost ( 719344 ) on Monday June 06, 2005 @12:45AM (#12733202) Homepage

    By reading the frantic comments here, it looks like we were on the verge of a split in the IT world: the DMCA-lobbied part consisting of the US, EU, Australia, etc..., and a DMCA-resistent part consisting of China, Russia and most of the remaining then-free world!

    Now imagine a not so far future, where chinese/taiwanese chip manufacturers implemented two versions of their chips: one crippled with DRM for the DMCA-area, the another uncrippled one for the rest of the world and their domestic market. The uncrippled version would have a bit, where one can enable or disable that crap at will, (just like the region-less DVD players, remember that one?), while the DRM in the crippled version could not be turned off.

    We'll get the crap, and the Chinese will still be free to get the best of both worlds. Wow! We're living in interesting times.

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