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Spam Government The Courts United States Your Rights Online News

Spammer Sentencing Guidelines Released 258

jfengel writes "The United States Sentencing Commission has issued its guidelines for punishment under the CAN-SPAM act (PDF, beginning on page 155). You can get 5 years for a second offense or if you're spamming for fraud, child porn or other felony, or 1 to 3 years depending on how much spam you send. If Congress doesn't say otherwise, it goes into effect November 1."
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Spammer Sentencing Guidelines Released

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  • by grub ( 11606 ) <slashdot@grub.net> on Saturday April 17, 2004 @12:44PM (#8891973) Homepage Journal

    Only one punishment is suitable for spammers: Death by Fisting.
  • by Allen Zadr ( 767458 ) * <Allen.Zadr@nOspaM.gmail.com> on Saturday April 17, 2004 @12:44PM (#8891974) Journal
    p>Honestly an extra 1 to 3 years tacked onto a felony conviction is nothing compared to the sentance that is already being faced. It seems to me that tacking on SPAM sentancing to the sentace will only expediate the parole process. Any opinions out there on the felony add-on side?

    For plain advertising - Five Years is actually a decent sentance. It's really too bad that, technically, it's so difficult to catch a spammer. Especially if they route through international hosts. Sadly, this is likely to have the worst effect on those that are not technologically savvy, and know the least about how Email works.

    To me, those types of people are the least of the SPAM problem.

    • The spamming+felony part of the guidelines are more or less irrelavant. It's just a pile-on for a criminal who likely is already on the way to a 200+ year sentance the other laws they've broken.

      Compared to distribution of child porn or plain classic fraud, using spam during the comission of those crimes is nothing much.

      Of course, we know that advertising spammers already make a point of setting themselves up outside of US jurisdiction, just like the online casino operators do...
      • by Allen Zadr ( 767458 ) * <Allen.Zadr@nOspaM.gmail.com> on Saturday April 17, 2004 @01:27PM (#8892224) Journal
        While my original post was about a kid who Emails the entire internet about the lemonade stand he's putting up next week (or some other innocuous example), there's another issue I see as well...

        So imagine when someone's Gramma, running a virus infected computer on (for argument's sake) Comcast, get's arrested and convicted for spamming.

        She goes to Computer-Repair-Center and fixes her computer. But they don't put all the most recent Microsoft patches. 10 days later, she's arrested for spamming, again.

        Is she the victim, or the perpetrator? Clearly the SPAM is being sent from her computer.

        Any jury will see that she is not actively involved, but she is enabling the actions of the SPAMmers. Is CAN-SPAM written in a way to clearly differentiate gramma from a SPAM company?

        • While my original post was about a kid who Emails the entire internet about the lemonade stand he's putting up next week (or some other innocuous example), there's another issue I see as well...

          You know its not that easy to email "the entire internet". When was the last time you got an innocuous spam?

          So imagine when someone's Gramma, running a virus infected computer on (for argument's sake) Comcast, get's arrested and convicted for spamming.

          I guess you kind of hope that the law enforcement have an ou
        • Really I can't imagine the grandma being convicted, or even charged unless the police officer was monumentally brain damaged, and then I can't imagine him having the knowhow to know what was going on. The act goes after the perpetrator of the SPAM, the person who writes the email and collects a list of email addresses of unwilling recipients. Under no circumstances would the grandma be charged unless they could show that she was the spammer, or perhaps an odd situation where the spammer is paying her to i
          • Unless they need to make an example of someone, and decide that grandma is the easiest target because any REAL spammers left have lawyers.
            • Spammers have lawyers now!?

              Okay, Canter & Siegel, the original scumba^W spammers were lawyers, but many of them seem only to make cartoonish legal threats (hence the name "cartoony") which get passed around the newsgroups for people to laugh at.

              Yes, I grant you, the spammers have hired lawyers before, but since everyone in the USA has the right to counsel in any criminal prosecution, I cannot seriously imagine that the cops would be deterred from enforcing the laws against them merely because they wer
          • ~ or even charged unless the police officer was monumentally brain damaged ~.

            Dudley Hiibel : Am I under arrest?
            Deputy Lee Dove : I just need to see some identification.
            Hiibel : Why?
            Dove : Because I'm investigating an investigation.
            Hiibel : Investigating what?
            Dove : I'm investigating.

            Verdict: Drain Bamage

        • Ok, what about this scenario: I am a spammer, and intentionally leave my windows pc unpatched or even 'install' a worm which I know will send emails to all the addresses I have.

          The f*cktards can even modify worms to send out specific spam emails ...

      • Why not just have them have to do community service by having them go around and remove spam/spyware from other peoples' computers?

        Oh, and make it so that, from now, on it's legal to pay them with shares in SCO :-) I understand now that Baystar wants to unload, that RBC is next ...

        Or to be really mean - have them work one day for SCO as "management", then tattoo (or brand) them with "I was SCO management".

        Or the ultimate: A T-Shirt that says "I work for Microsoft Quality Assurance".

    • This is a bad, dumb, wrong law that won't work and will only be used by crackhead prosecutors to harass their political enemies.

      Real spammers will simply move their base to a country that won't extradite them and has good broadband connections. Like maybe some island in the middle of the Pacific that acts as a supply and maintenence station for the major trans-oceanic internet cables. So this law won't do anything to reduce the amount of spam that gets to your PC.

      I call it a 'Yuppie' law because
      • by Simonetta ( 207550 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @01:52PM (#8892379)
        A 'Yuppie' (from 'Young Urban Professional') law is any emotional law that is passed to enforce a lifestyle affection primarily of the young and upper-middle class on the poor and lower-middle class people. It gives the Yuppie do-gooders the impression that they have addressed what they precieve to be a 'social problem' without actually doing anything about in the real world and often making the underlying problem worse.

        An example would be the law that requires all children to wear bicycle helmets. Fine for yuppie mommies, they're the first to buy anything that might help protect precious little Megan and Justin. But bad for the children of the poor.
        Say a cop sees a poor kid on a bicycle without a helmet. He stops the kid and gives him a big (more than $100) ticket that his parents must pay or lose their driver's license. [I know, there's no connection between the two in the real world. But yuppie mommies love to come up with creative and nasty little ways to make the poor people improve themselves i.e. see things from a yuppie mommy prespective]
        The parents can't afford a $100 helmet for the kid -and- pay the ticket. So they tell the kid on the threat of a beating not to get caught by the cops for riding around the neighborhood without a helmet.
        So the next time that the cops are around and see the kids riding without helmets, the kids take off in the opposite direction. Being kids, they don't look where they're going and dive right out into traffic where they get hit by a car.
        The good yuppie mommies point to this incident as a reason for all kids to wear helmets and to increase the penalities on the parents of the working class children to 'encourage them to make the right choices for their children's safety'.

        I know, I know, that you're all going to tell me what a shit I am and how this doesn't make any sense and , of course, kids NEED helmets and what a stupid jerk I am and how I have a serious attitude problem and how I could certainly benefit from counseling and how my own kids deserve a better parent than me and everything else...

        It doesn't change the fact that we don't need any more yuppie mommie laws. You need to consider the possible side effects of any law will have before you endorse passing it.

        Thank you,
        • The most infamous of yuppie laws being the law in california requiring traffic on both sides of the street to stop when a bus is unloading students. Yes you read correctly, in California *ALL* traffic must stop if a school bus is unloading students. I don't know the exact fine but its a draconain sum over a grand.

          Apparently some kid darwined himself by running out into traffic and the idiots in Sacramento thought "I'll make sure that never happens again!" Nevermind that in decades of public transportat

    • It's not difficult to find a spammer. Just follow the money.

      I realise the average slashdotter can't do this with traceroute and whois, but it should be no problem for the Feds.
  • 2nd offense? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Tango42 ( 662363 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @12:45PM (#8891980)
    What to you count as an "offense"? I would expect all spammers have sent more than 2 spam messages. Do you have to be caught, let off scott free, and then caught again before anything happens? Sounds like an easy ride to me...
    • Re:2nd offense? (Score:4, Informative)

      by Ungrounded Lightning ( 62228 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @01:38PM (#8892282) Journal
      Do you have to be caught, let off scott free, and then caught again before anything happens?

      Nope. That's just the top of three tiers. Bottom is one year. Here they are:

      Up to five years and/or a fine for:
      - Furthering another felony using spam
      - Second offense. (Voilating state anti-spam laws also counts as first offense.)

      Up to three years and/or a fine for:
      - using cracked computers to send the spam
      - using email accounts or domain registrations obtained with false i.d. info to send the spam
      - Sending LOTS of spam: >2,500/day (24 hour period), 25,000/month (30 day period), or 250,000/year (1 year period).
      - causing one or more persons to lose $5,000 or more within a one-year period. (I think this includes conning, system damage, and spam cleanup costs.)
      - Obtaining anything of value totalling $5,000 or more within a one year period as a reslut of spamming. (I think this includes getting paid to spam.)
      - Bossing three or more underlings to do the spam.

      Up to one year and/or a fine for any other violations.
  • They need the 2nd offense to be punished by chemical castration, as in the pourig of the gentals in caustic chemicals.

    3rd offense death
    • They need the 2nd offense to be punished by chemical castration, as in the pourig of the gentals in caustic chemicals.

      Totally wrong attitude. What is needed is not vicious punishments, but certainty of getting caught. If you could prove quickly and cheaply that 1) This is spam, and 2) He sent it, you wouldn't need massive punishments. $1000 fine, or maybe a week in gaol, would do fine. Spammers spam for money, not for fun. If you make spamming financially unviable, it will end.

      What we need is a good way
  • Two Words: (Score:5, Insightful)

    by PeeAitchPee ( 712652 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @12:47PM (#8891994)
    Unenforceable overseas.
    • Re:Two Words: (Score:5, Insightful)

      by gnu-generation-one ( 717590 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @01:19PM (#8892183) Homepage
      "Two Words: Unenforceable overseas. (Score:5, Insightful)"

      Three words: "Spammers are American".
      • this is true. Americans are the worst spammers. there was a /. article a while ago.
        • Re:Two Words: (Score:5, Informative)

          by gnu-generation-one ( 717590 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @02:15PM (#8892497) Homepage
          there was an article on slashdot a while ago. so it must be true!

          Joking aside, have a look at the list of Top 10 spammers [spamhaus.org]

          1: Alan Ralsky, U.S.A. (Michigan)
          2: Scott Richter, U.S.A. (Colorado)
          3: Alexey Panov, Germany
          4: Tony Banks, U.S.A. (Missouri)
          5: Chris Smith, U.S.A. (Minnesota)
          6: Eddy Marin, U.S.A. (Florida)
          7: Eric Reinertsen, U.S.A. (Florida)
          8: Juan Garavaglia, Argentina
          9: lmihosting.com, U.S.A.
          10:Robert Soloway, U.S.A. (Oregon)
          • The number 2 guy was on the daily show I think. Funny shit, he was complaining about anti-spammers clogging him up with e-mails he didn't want to try and stop him from sending spam. Then he blames the USPS for the anti-spam laws, because he's sending so much mail they need him to start buying stamps. Then they posted his e-mail on the screen.

            Video here if you haven't seen it
            http://www.ianai.net/jokes/DailyShow.ScottRich ter. wmv
      • Plus, once spamming has been thoroughly stigmatized and precedents set, there would be grounds for the US to demand cooperation from local law enforcement or even extradition.
      • Re:Two Words: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        There's basically two kinds of spammers:

        1) Those that are actually selling something. Even if their mail operation is overseas, they likely have some base of business operation close to their customers (largely US)

        2) Spam Pyramid Scheme types -- since they are only selling addresses and spamware, they can be located anywhere.

        Besides, this isn't really an argument against making spam illegal. You don't see people saying "No point in going after child molesters, after all, you can buy a 12 year old in Viet
      • Re:Two Words: (Score:3, Insightful)

        Four more words: "until this law passes".

        If spamming in the US becomes risky, they'll simply hire people overseas to do it.
  • by condensate ( 739026 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @12:48PM (#8892000)
    Still those spammers have to be caught don't they? I think it's time for all of us to see that just introducing a new law will never again be enough to stop determined, persistent, and, worst of all, quite clever folks among them do what they can. Compared with the money you still can make spamming around, 5 years are nothing, and for child porn you get even more (money, that is...).
  • by PierceLabs ( 549351 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @12:48PM (#8892002)
    I'm more concerned with the rules of evidence that we need in order to bring these losers to court. The judicial system needs to produce a more concrete set of guidelines for what the average joe needs to bring to a law enforcement official (and which law enforcement office) in order to get convictions!
    • Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @01:34PM (#8892262)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • I would think that if you were to visit here, and get mugged, they'd still convict the mugger even though you aren't a US citizen.

        I think it still applies with spam, so yeh, in theory you could report them.

        I'd also think you have enough proof that the spam is fraudulent and uninvited.

        The big problem is, and always has been, identifying the culprit. First, the culprit has to be american (otherwise, since both parties are outside the US, it is outside the jurisdiction of this law), and second, you have to
      • yes, you seem to have evidence your a victim, but do you have evidence who the perpetrator is?

        Ifnot, then it's pretty useless. It's like getting mugged in a dark alley, by someone wearing a mask, and they are being mind controlled from another part of the country.
  • Overkill? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by greygent ( 523713 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @12:49PM (#8892004) Homepage
    I place spammers right below murderers and birthday party clowns, but aren't these sentences a bit overkill?

    Sometimes I wonder if the prison overcrowding problems aren't because they toss out 5 year sentences like candy to spammers (soon), hackers, and people who get caught with a single joint. Meanwhile the cliche of "rapist out in 3 years" continues to remain valid.

    Is it all becoming about profits?
    • Sometimes I wonder if the prison overcrowding problems aren't because they toss out 5 year sentences like candy to spammers (soon), hackers, and people who get caught with a single joint.

      A sci-fi story once offered a nice solution to prison overcrowding. The convicted criminal had to take a pill drawn randomly from a bottle. A certain percentage of the pills in the bottle were loaded with lethal poison. If criminal survived the pill, they were released. The probability of dying was tied to the crime
      • If one goes to jail for running a red light or smoking a joint of pot, there's definitely something wrong with the judicial system - not with the people.

        Capital punishment also happens to be barbaric according to the standards of most civilized nations on earth.

        • I love when people complain because of the sentencing on a 'not really important' piece of legislation. At what point should an offender not be morally or legally responsible for his/her actions in breaking the law? Sometimes that's left up to a jury to decide, however then we have situations like O.J. He was found not guilty, so be it. The system isn't 100% perfect and never claimed to be, however running a stop light and smoking pot (right or wrong) have their penalties. What those penalties are, usu
        • the whole point of (most) spam is not clog servers and carry out vendettas

          And you think the US cares about the standards of other nations WHY?

          I think the death penalty lets them off too easy. Let 'em stay in the box for 40 years.
      • To the suicidal, that would be a license to do anything they want before they died. Afterall, even if caught they would get away with it every time until they died.
    • Maybe you should look at the problem from another perspective--

      Assume that it is all about profits. Think about it, if you wanted to explain to somebody how annoying spam is to you, or how annoying getting raped is to you, the only common commodity you could accurately describe the burden with is money.

      Getting raped is obviously going to have more detrimental effects than getting a spam e-mail. Let's say you have to go to a psychiatrist, your emotional problems lead to an end in a relationship y
  • by Corp186 ( 571189 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @12:52PM (#8892022)
    Lately I've been thinking about sentencing, and I see people complain about how it's unfair that non-violent crimes get just as much time as, say, a man plowing over another person at 90 mph. And then we see the CAN-SPAM act, and think that these people should get MORE time than that. It makes me wonder if our view of sentencing being linearly or otherwise correlated to the aspect of the crime is wrong.
    • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @01:27PM (#8892223)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • Though this is a rather redundant message i just want to second the prior statement.

        Jails in US(and in general all over the world) are overcrowded, and too many gets jail time for doing stupid stuff that doesn't endanger anyone.

        And yes, i even feel that the Enron people shouldn't go to jail, What would the use be? A better option would be for the Enron people to give the money to a fund for all the people that got laid off. So they could get money both now(till they get a new job, and for training), and f
  • by ciurana ( 2603 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @12:53PM (#8892031) Homepage Journal
    I completely agree with the spirit of the law. I disagree on how it's being implemented. The law should also go after the idiots paying the spammers to send their unsolicited verbiage. The current laws are completely toothless if the spammer decides to start sending spam from servers out of US jurisdiction. The companies offering the products or services clogging my INBOX should be fined/prosecuted as well. There is no incentive to stop spam as things are. There is incentive to find a spammer who will be out of jurisdiction. How long do you think it will be before the better financed spammers move their servers to India or elsewhere? How long before some entreprenurial Mexicans, Czechs or Russians decide to offer their services?

    (Disclaimer: I'm Mexican. I speak Russian and spend a lot of time there. I'm familiar with their technical capabilities and motivations. So don't start on "why did he singled those nationalities out?" Because in my opinion it's likely to happen. You're welcome to your opinion based on YOUR experiences.)

    When the law starts going after the product or service pushers, or their credit card payment processors, I'll cheer it. I doubt the law will be applied correctly until then.

    Cheers,

    Eugene
    • The problem with fining the companies offering the products/services is that you've then handed their competition a great way to get rid of them. Having trouble beating a rival in the market? Hire a direct marketer in Russia, say, to send out ten million mails, carefully targetted to include government and law enforcement officers in their jurisdiction claiming to be selling their service. Watch them implode under the fines.

    • ...that you need to establish a chain of evidence that proves the company sent out, commissioned or otherwise approved of the SPAM. If not, I could simply spam *for* my competitors' websites, and they would be fined/put in jail.

      Since they don't know me, they'd have even less chance of actually finding me and stopping my spamming than those actually recieving a spam mail from me. This is more commonly known as a joe job.

      It's not sure that it is the company itself or a competitor either. How about a blackma
    • RickHunter wrote

      The problem with fining the companies offering the products/services is that you've then handed their competition a great way to get rid of them. Having trouble beating a rival in the market? Hire a direct marketer in Russia, say, to send out ten million mails, carefully targetted to include government and law enforcement officers in their jurisdiction claiming to be selling their service. Watch them implode under the fines.

      Kjella wrote:

      Quite simply, it's neither practically or lega

      • Yes, but what happen when I hire company A to handle my advertising, and them some dumb ass at the company spam everyone? or gets paid a lot of money by my competitor to do so?

        How do you follow cash?

        What happens when I get a call from someone who wants 10,000 units of my product? am I suppose to sell it to them, or spend a sunstantial amount of cash tracking down there operation, and how their advertisers work?

        No, you go after the spammers, and you go after the telcom that knowingly allow spammers on th
  • by mider ( 562943 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @12:53PM (#8892032)
    people well stop sending me emails reminding me that my penis is too small and I have trouble getting it up. However, I'd rather the senate put in a bill that shuts up whoever it is that keeps telling all theses marketers about my small penis and erectile difficulties.
    • There's probably a whole generation of young boys growing up right now who are too scared to even talk to girls because they're too paranoid that they're not *cough* of equine proportions *cough*. Perhaps they'll be able to sue the spammers for destroying their self-confidence???
  • by blcamp ( 211756 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @12:54PM (#8892042) Homepage
    ...my worry, aside from making sure all the legal definitions and what-not are in line with good common sense is... ...are these [insert your favorite naughty description of spammer here]s going to be able to buy thier way out of jail?

    After all, these [naughty description]s rake in a gizorkabajizalafillion dollars from thier, erm, activities...

  • Oh thank god, for a minute there i thought they were raising sentences for assult! im glad i can still go around with my gang beating the crap out of people without the risk of too much time in jail cos that would totally suck. Also i think its my right to carry an M16 and a 2 foot sword around wherever i go and i wouldnt want to get into lots of trouble for that (well no more trouble than my rich daddy couldnt pay off ;) Its not like im bad or anything - just a little messing crap up around town, smashing
  • by el cisne ( 135112 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @01:05PM (#8892102) Journal
    What we need is some truly old school punishment for these scum. Especially for recidivist spammer slime. I'd add :
    1. Public flogging
    2. Draw and quarter [hyperdictionary.com]
    3. The Rack
    4. Impalement [houseofdesade.org]
    5. Pillory [houseofdesade.org]
  • by haxeh ( 766837 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @01:06PM (#8892110)
    I don't know what kind of email accounts you all have, but I rarely get spam, and when I do, the filters pick it up. Sure it's annoying, but it's really not that big of a deal. We need better filtering, if anything, not 'better' legislation. I can't understand how the same people who want to keep the internet free of government influence are supporting laws to crucify spammers. Maybe after we tackle the spam problem, we can lock up those damn haxorz for life and censor all that indecent content out there. And, actually, let's do it for the whole world, not just the US.
    • I'm not sure I understand....to a point you say we don't need better legislation and in the next you say lock them up. Actual spam content in this law has nothing to do with the penalties; unless it's a felony, which already has it's own penalties in place.
    • For a long time, I agreed spam is a problem, but I never had more than a couple dozen a day, easy enough to delete. Until this year... now I've had the same email address on my site for years now, and I always disguised it to help against spam bots, but something happened in the last six months. I started getting 10-12 spams EVERY TIME my mail client checked my mail at ten minute intervals. and I was only getting worse.

      I switched hosts and had access to install SpamAssassin. Now it catches about 600 spams

  • by Jtoxification ( 678057 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @01:08PM (#8892120) Homepage Journal
    As sick and hateful as we all find it, legit spamming (in large numbers) does seem to produce income, although it also produces dire hatred by all. It's disgusting, because the real truth here is that spamming actually targets the demigraphic of people who are truly most likely to spend their large quantities of hard-earned, overvalued, stamped, signed paper & plastic: old people in retirement, impressionable people, and young people with access to $.
    I wouldn't have much of a problem with it if it were not for the malicious nature that is ingrained within those who use it. (And in fact I analyzed what I would need to do to start it, until realizing that the services would be abused to take advantage of those who can't help themselves.) If it were more reliable and better structured, I'd feel okay with it. After all, there are hands down, enough ways to efficiently deal with it and cut down on it. A legal protocol for a spam-newsgroup system where people can filter them to various folders would be of interest to me ... hmmm ... (imagine Gameworks spamming people with deals to take to the nearest arcade ? Or I remember for awhile that the Toyota dealer in my area had an insane family deal, buy one actual car, get the next for a dollar -- truth ! I wanted to split the cost with a friend, but neither of us had enough to pay.) Initially, I thought, "hey, this is great ... if they're just going after spammers who scam, I'll have to read more on it," but if you spam, then you're either ignoring the demigraphic, or don't care about it.
    I hate spam, not for the fact that it hounds many of my emails with 3-10 messages per day, but because of the people who are literally preyed upon by it for their money. That is reason enough for spammers to spend jail-time, and lots of it. The government didn't go far enough.
  • by rylin ( 688457 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @01:13PM (#8892150)
    How about tacking on a little "not allowed to use computer systems" after the 2nd offense?
  • ...it's still 1-5 years* ~0 spammers.

    What we need is the means to take more spammers to court. As it is now, they're so few it'd hardly matter if you gave them capital punishment.

    Kjella
  • by yow2000 ( 763256 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @01:16PM (#8892167)
    To prosecute, just follow the link.
  • by mwfolsom ( 234049 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @01:22PM (#8892198)
    This is by much too little.

    I want spammers tortured. I propose they be tied to a low voltage electric chair which is connected to a button on a website. The populace will be invited to come by and issue a non-terminal zap to the offender whenever the mood stikes them.

  • The War on Spam sounds great, and I'm sure every citizen is happy their politicians are taking such draconian measures. Ditto for the spam fighters, who will get nice shiny boxes and new powers to help in the fight. But it won't work and for simple reasons.

    One: spammers have huge networks of zombied computers at their disposal and can send spam almost entirely undetectably.

    Two: this legislation does not affect the companies actually selling their products via spam. Thus it simply acts as a darwinian filter, eliminating the spammers stupid enough to remain in US jurisdiction and allow their identities to be tracked (see point one).

    Three: there are already more effective ways to get the consumers' attention, and by legislating against spam, these will simply become more used. Mainly, I'm thinking of spyware/trojans like CoolWebSearch.

    A realistic attack on spam and the rest must be focussed on the people paying for such services, i.e. advertisers. They must be liable for the cost and moral damage their marketing causes, as in any other domain. Further we need some changes to the policy of "receiver pays" which is the basic reason why spam exists at all.

    But as so often, this attack on spammers is too little, too late, and ignores what is a much more serious problem: spyware, trojans, and worms that spread via security holes in MSIE and Windows.
  • Yeah, this will really stop spammers! It's not like they can just move out of the USA and spam to their hearts content or anything like that ... er ... wait.

  • Perhaps administor 1 ppt of arsenic for every 1 spam?

    2,500,000 spams would yield near-immediate results
    while half a million parts per trillion would be a slower,
    but more painful death for the spammer later that week.

  • 1. Send out millions of spam mail 2. Watch the news about Congress passing an anti-spam law 3. Laugh at Congress because the problem is technical not legal 4. Profit!!!
  • Hard Labor (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ca1v1n ( 135902 ) <snook.guanotronic@com> on Saturday April 17, 2004 @01:56PM (#8892399)
    We should put these guys to work doing human spam filtering. Sure, it sounds like a recipe for disaster, but just tie their pay to their performance. Let through an ad for grey-market software at huge discounts? Looks like you're gonna have to get friendly with Bubba if you want your cigarettes this week. Of course you also spot-check their rejects. Drop the email from the ex asking if you wanna get drinks some time? TWO WEEKS IN SOLITARY!

    In all seriousness, 5 years ago I would have said that multi-year prison sentences for spamming would be extreme, at least in cases without other crimes involved. On its face, it's still extreme, but these guys now hold an entire communication system hostage. If sending several of them to prison for their transgressions (which ARE transgressions) can be a deterrent, then I'm for it. I think it really will be a deterrent if we can get some convictions. It's not like people spam in a brief burst of anger. These people generally have some business or technical skills that could find them legitimate employment (perhaps somewhat less lucrative, but above the poverty line) even in the lousy tech economy. I hear the porn industry does well when the economy is lousy. I'm sure my mom would much rather I manage a (legitimate) porn server farm than a spam server farm anyway.
  • by sulli ( 195030 ) * on Saturday April 17, 2004 @02:07PM (#8892468) Journal
    Your post advocates a

    ( ) technical (*) legislative ( ) market-based ( ) vigilante

    approach to fighting spam. Your idea will not work. Here is why it won't work. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have other flaws which used to vary from state to state before a bad federal law was passed.)

    ( ) Spammers can easily use it to harvest email addresses
    ( ) Mailing lists and other legitimate email uses would be affected
    (*) No one will be able to find the guy or collect the money
    ( ) It is defenseless against brute force attacks
    ( ) It will stop spam for two weeks and then we'll be stuck with it
    ( ) Users of email will not put up with it
    (*) Microsoft will not put up with it
    (*) The police will not put up with it
    ( ) Requires too much cooperation from spammers
    ( ) Requires immediate total cooperation from everybody at once
    ( ) Many email users cannot afford to lose business or alienate potential employers
    ( ) Spammers don't care about invalid addresses in their lists
    ( ) Anyone could anonymously destroy anyone else's career or business

    Specifically, your plan fails to account for

    ( ) Laws expressly prohibiting it
    ( ) Lack of centrally controlling authority for email
    (*) Open relays in foreign countries
    ( ) Ease of searching tiny alphanumeric address space of all email addresses
    (*) Asshats
    (*) Jurisdictional problems
    ( ) Unpopularity of weird new taxes
    ( ) Public reluctance to accept weird new forms of money
    ( ) Huge existing software investment in SMTP
    ( ) Susceptibility of protocols other than SMTP to attack
    ( ) Willingness of users to install OS patches received by email
    ( ) Armies of worm riddled broadband-connected Windows boxes
    ( ) Eternal arms race involved in all filtering approaches
    ( ) Extreme profitability of spam
    ( ) Joe jobs and/or identity theft
    (*) Technically illiterate politicians
    (*) Extreme stupidity on the part of people who do business with spammers
    ( ) Dishonesty on the part of spammers themselves
    ( ) Bandwidth costs that are unaffected by client filtering
    (*) Outlook

    and the following philosophical objections may also apply:

    (*) Ideas similar to yours are easy to come up with, yet none have ever been shown practical
    ( ) Any scheme based on opt-out is unacceptable
    ( ) SMTP headers should not be the subject of legislation
    ( ) Blacklists suck
    ( ) Whitelists suck
    ( ) We should be able to talk about Viagra without being censored
    ( ) Countermeasures should not involve wire fraud or credit card fraud
    ( ) Countermeasures should not involve sabotage of public networks
    ( ) Countermeasures must work if phased in gradually
    ( ) Sending email should be free
    ( ) Why should we have to trust you and your servers?
    ( ) Incompatiblity with open source or open source licenses
    (*) Feel-good measures do nothing to solve the problem
    ( ) Temporary/one-time email addresses are cumbersome
    ( ) I don't want the government reading my email
    (*) Killing them that way is not slow and painful enough

    Furthermore, this is what I think about you:

    ( ) Sorry dude, but I don't think it would work.
    ( ) This is a stupid idea, and you're a stupid person for suggesting it.
    (*) Nice try, assh0le! I'm going to find out where you live and burn your house down!
  • War on... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by karlandtanya ( 601084 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @02:46PM (#8892666)
    We Americans (U.S. Citizens--sorry, eh?) just loooove to declare "war" on things.


    How about a war on overreaction of an impotent legislature.


    We have here a crime (since 2004-01-01) that causes, at most, annoyance.


    It's very politically correct these days to hate spam. But, frankly, it's the kind of hatred that's reserved for rude drivers, cell-phone wielding restaraunt patrons and the like.


    Plenty of examples have already been posted about the little old lady with the virus-infected computer or the kid with the lemonade stand. I'll not pile on here.


    Who among us has asked "we the people" to throw somebody in prison for being a pain in the ass?


    Dontcha think that's a little harsh?


    Death penalty for parking violations and all that.


    It's the responsiblity of "we, the people" to create justifiable penalties for offences, and then enforce them.


    The excuse "it's too hard to catch these guys" does not justify cutting the balls off of the poor bastard we do nab.


    Society at large (we call "the law") has to follow some rules, too. No unreasonable search and seizure. No cruel or unusual punishment. No taking of life, liberty, or property without due process.


    "War on" [drugs, terror, drunk driving], and now spam seems, however, to absolve "we, the people" from restrictions against abuse of the individual.

  • Keep on spamming (Score:3, Interesting)

    by max born ( 739948 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @03:38PM (#8893084)
    A senseless waste of our tax dollars. This won't work because spammers know how to hide behind hijacked computers and open relays, etc.. Having glanced through these guides I couldn't help thinking how easy it would be to distrubute spam containing child pornography while posing as your competitor.

    It's ironic that our elected officials can't take on tough issues like health care but seem to have plenty of time to pen 161 pages of rendantly abominable extraneous verbosity.

    We've had the DMCA, now it's CAN-SPAM. What troubles me about these laws is that they're ineffectual. People will copy DVDs and distribute them, others will send unsolicited advertisements to any email address they can get. Relax people. This is no biggy. For the domains I manage I get about 1500 emails/day (webmaster, postmaster, admin, etc.) but I use a spam filter and a procmail script to deal with it.

    What we're asking here is for the government to control what comes into our inboxes. I'm sure CAN-SPAM will be tied up in the courts for years over it's implications on the First Amendment. The whole thing is a waste of society's resources.

  • by MS ( 18681 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @04:14PM (#8893342)
    Spam has tripled since the announcement of the CAN-Spam act in late 2003:

    Have a look at the following graph showing the statistic of spam per day [cesmail.net] during the last year (thanks to Spamcop).

    Clearly the CAN-Spam act did in no way reduce the amount of spam.

    :-(

  • by 3rings ( 772197 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @04:19PM (#8893367)

    The 5 year and 3 year sentences are maximums set by Congress. A while back, Congress created the U.S. Sentencing Commission and laws that bound what a judge may do in a given case, based on the Commission's Guidelines. So, although a crime may be a 5 year felony, a judge can only sentence someone to 5 years if he meets the criteria set in the guidelines.

    Congress was actually interested in pushing sentences up, because it wanted to appear tough on crime. Therefore, at the same time, it abolished parole for federal crimes. There is no parole for federal offenses, only a small amount of time off for good behavior, calculated through a formula.

    The Guidelines end up working like Dungeon & Dragons. The crime has a base offense level, say 6. Then there are "enhancements" for various kinds of conduct. So, if you're caught (somehow) and used an innocent person's computer, you could get +4. If you use the word viagra, +1; if you misspell viagra, +2, etc. [Like, I'm wearing my leather armor, but my armor class is improved by 2 for my dexterity and 4 for my magic ring] See The Fraud Guidlines [ussc.gov]

    A defendant also has a criminal history score, based on how many times he's been convicted before.

    There's a table in the guidelines that cross-references offense level and criminal history to give a sentencing range in months. With a criminal history of I (they use roman numerals for the criminal history), you need an offense level of at least 11 to be certain of any actual jail time (because zone B sentences allow a convict to do "home detention"). See The Sentencing Table. [ussc.gov]

    The thing is, I can't find what exactly the Commission has sent to Congress, i.e., the proposed offense levels and enhancements, so its hard to tell what the Commission has actually come up with. From what I can tell, they have decided to incorporate this offense into the the fraud guidelines. (according to this ZDnet story). [zdnet.com.au] The fraud guidelines are based on the amount lost and are notoriously squishy--because it is difficult to estimate exactly how much a given scheme cost.

  • Italy VS Maryland (Score:4, Insightful)

    by MS ( 18681 ) on Saturday April 17, 2004 @04:26PM (#8893406)
    Maryland [clickz.com] lawmakers passed an anti-spam bill 4 days ago, which seek criminal penalties including up to 10 years in jail and fines up to 25.000 US$...

    On the other hand Italy has a law (since September 2003), which seeks up to 3 years in jail and fines up to 90.000 Euros!

    Guess, which law I find better? Jail-time would be payed by us, the innocent citizen, while fines weight on the offenders pocket!

    :-)

  • Virus? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by The Master Control P ( 655590 ) <ejkeeverNO@SPAMnerdshack.com> on Saturday April 17, 2004 @08:26PM (#8894617)
    I know perfectly well that this is probably illegal. However, we all know that now spammers generally send their trash through 0wn3d Windoze computers. Is is not possible to write a slowly-propagating virus (One that will NOT cause the network to slow to a crawl) that will search out and destroy spam/spy/ad-ware on the computer?

    There is no way to find the bastards or stop them from sending their trash without getting rid of their zombie networks. If you eliminate those, you might as well break their electronic kneecaps.

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