eBay Fraud Vigilantes

firstadopter.com writes "New York Times (free registration needed) is reporting that users are sick of internet fraud on eBay. With lack of help from the company, they are taking the law into their own hands and closing down auctions they think are obvious scams."

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eBay's job is to prevent these things...

[LostCluster]

The reason people pay to use eBay rather than setup their own auction script on their web site is because eBay is providing a regulated marketplace, one where eBay makes the rules and enforces them to prevent fraudulent activities from affecting buyers and sellers.

If eBay can't get a grip on their fraud problems, then the door will be wide open for another marketplace to challenge them.

Bidding qualification?

[LostCluster]

One reason why people are able to place a $2.5 million bid to try to kill off an auction they think is fraudulent is that it doesn't cost anything to place a over-high bid on eBay.

Maybe eBay should set some threshholds at which point bids require a deposit in escrow in order to justify a large bid, money that is returned if the bid doesn't win, but is lost if the transaction doesn't close because its withdrawn while being the high bidder.

Hit me too

[AigariusDebian]

I must admit that I also was the one to suffer from that. After a great deal on an expensive digital camera (Sony F717 :)) that went flawlessly I got too relaxed.
They got me with a road bike for 100 EUR + 50 for shipping and I bought it. It's been a month without the bike and any reply to the emails.
This article motivated me to go to the authorities to try to get the money back. This fraud was stupid enough to give me his bank acount and a postal address. Let's see what the police san do about it!

Re:What were they expecting?

[synergy3000]

I've put faith in those online auctions and have not been scammed in over 150 plus auctions. Mostly sales, a few purchases. If you are careful with who you buy from and walk away from deals too good to be true you should be fine. As for readily exploitable mechanisms like Paypal its a fricking bank account. If you lose your check book, your credit card number or even your SS number you can get exploited. Its not like it is all that much easier through paypal. Email scams have been asking for bank account numbers and what not in addition to paypal passwords. Run and hide in a cave and have no contact with the outside world and then your "financial assets" will be safe.

Ebay has fallen a long ways i n my book

[cpex]

I liked ebay when it was just people selling second hand items, businesses selling surplus etc. Ever since the ebay business model sprung to life ebay imho sucks. Sure they let something like a cell phone faceplate go for $2.00 that you would pay $15 for in the mall. ut then they hit you with a $8 to $10 s/h fee, and you get it in an envlope with 0.95 postage marked on it. They are just using the shipping and handling fee to insure their profit. And good luck if something is broken or incorrect when it comes back with these mega sellers of cheap crap, they glady will take the negative feedback point as it will be lost in the thousands of others were they didnt screw up. And the scams are unblievable. Instructions to build your own projection tv, wholesaler list. errr

Re:What were they expecting?

[Penguin's Advocate]

I've used ebay and paypal to buy and sell a lot of things, and never had any problems whatsoever. Then one day my brother decided to buy a computer on ebay (which I do regularly). He found a good system for a good price, looked entirely legit, plenty of positive feedbacks for the same or similar computers, my friend built a similar system for himself for around that same price. So it looked legit, but my bro is now out $1060 with no computer and the guy has disappeared, and the weirdest part is, the guy contacted my brother 2 months later, after fraud charges had long been filed with paypal, ebay, and the IFCC, and told him that he was embarrassed by this and promised to ship the computer the next day, which of course he did not. But WHY would he do that? He didn't ask for more money or try to sell anything else, he just promised to ship it after we'd already done everything we could think of to get him.

On that note, don't ever buy anything from StudentCompSolutions.com, Jeff Bellisimo, or jeffyjimmy@*.*
And if anyone lives near 5150 Argus Dr. in LA, and would like to pay Jeff a visit for me I'd be much obliged.

Re:Expensive Electronics Cheap Scams, not taken do

[Anonymous Coward]

Calling the number gives you a guy (who sounds like he just woke up, or just smoked down) that says he's their answering service.

whois revbuys.com

Administrative Contact:
Doctor, Crazy [e-mail]
p.o. box 9193
red bluff, California 96080
United States
5302004131

Technical Contact:
Doctor, Crazy [e-mail]
p.o. box 9193
red bluff, California 96080
United States
5302004131

People sometimes do this out of anger...

[grungebox]

A while ago some people were auctioning off CD's with all the cartoons from Homestar Runner [homestarrunner.com] on eBay. Some fans got pissed at the people selling the CD's and overbid them to millions of dollars. I've seen it happen to people trying to sell CD's of Penny Arcade [penny-arcade.com] strips as well.

Start a new E-Bay

[randomErr]

Vigilanties usually don't fix a problem. They almost always make things worse. If one person is saying an auction is real and another says they are fake then who should you believe? The answer is no one, go other to Yahoo! Auctions or somewhere else.

E-bay will have to restructure and get rid of these fake auctions or die.

So which will it be e-Bay?

Anime Bootlegs?

[Ondo]

What about bootleg anime on eBay or half.com? They're often easy to spot, but I don't know what to do about them. Is there an effective way to report them?

Re:I used to vigilante too

[PhotoBoy]

I run a webmail system and I caught someone signing up multiple accounts and creating fake auctions on eBay. He had about 50 accounts when I caught him. I tried reporting the accounts he'd created to eBay but they didn't reply.

So instead I locked all his accounts and put an auto-responder message on them. This auto-responder would explain to the sender that the guy was a con-artist and that they should not under any circumstances send him money.

I wish I could have seen his face when he realised he'd lost all his correspondance with people he was planning to con.

Re:Expensive Electronics Cheap Scams, not taken do

[EinarH]

Yup, it's a pyramid scheme. They call it "a matrix" but it's the same shit in a new wrapping.

Some of the schemes invlove selling of ebooks other are driven entirely like a pyramid with people entering at a low cost, below $50, and then relying on the "members" (fraud victims) marketing the scheme to get their goods.

Examples of schemes like this:
Electronicmatrix.com [electronicsmatrix.com] or Ezdeal4u.com [ezdeal4u.com]

Why buy on eBay at all??

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of the time, you'll find a better price in a regular eShop (hint: http://froogle.google.com/)

Re:I used to vigilante too

[Copid]

Or killing people who are attempting to commit murder...

eBay great for the right stuff

[tomatoguy]

I've been on eBay for I think 5 years now (feedback rating of 530+), buying memorabilia for a particular marque of British auto. Like another poster I buy pretty small things and out of nearly 1000 transactions I've had only a couple items in my "Stiffed" file - 1 from a seller who (apparently) died, 3 or 4 lost in the mail, and a 2 from a seller that was woefully disorganized for their volume. I've paid by PayPal, US$ cheque and cash, and only 1 payment went astray and it was a cheque that I cancelled. I have sent money to various spots around the world that would make people a bit leery, but anything like this is a gamble. I deal in a niche, not in the mainstream consumer products market, so that's probably why my experience is so good. Nobody's wanting to get rich off the stuff I buy. People chasing "deals" on the same stuff everyone else is chasing will always be targets for the unscrupulous.

Re:eBay AND PayPal sucks ...

[Facekhan]

I have not had any real problems with paypal but I recognize the risk. Anything over 50 dollars I pay with a credit card on paypal not my bank accounts. I would prefer to do it the other way and save the merchant the fee but there is just no other way to be safe because paypal does not handle disputes appropriately.

And I no longer keep any money in my paypal account because of that whole barely legal freezing thing they do when they get pissed off at you for making them work.

I am fairly sure that any unauthorized bank transfer that Paypal tried to initiate (to try and get back at you for a CC chargeback)would be extremely illegal and would likely end their relationship with that bank. Paypal has to walk a fine line because all it would take is a couple large banks to decide they are no longer trustworthy to perform wire transfers and/or CC transactions with and paypal is through.

caveat emptor

[b17bmbr]

fraud is never okay, but people think they can get things on the cheap on ebay. you get what you pay for. i see lots of 17" powerbooks for like $999. i'm thinking, yeah right. but i read where some guys got hosed on these "deals". people are stupid for thinking they can find deals on ebay that are too good to be true. my wife buys and sells kids clothes. but she bought her canon 10D at a brick and mortar store, though she could've got it for a lot less on ebay. so why? well, you pay for service. and it is safer. you pay for that too. i have no sympathy for people who drop big dollars to people they have no way of verifying, especially if it's in some BFE country. they should use sense. though ebay has a responsibility, they can't possibly track the millions (and millions) of auctions. it is incumbent on the bidder. there are great deals on refurb'd laptops. but i'd only buy them from legit ebay stores. i wouldn't buy it from a regular user.

Re:Why buy on eBay at all??

[adzoox]

How many shops accept paypal (if you don't have the debit card) - how many shops are in rural Montana - do shops have ebay points - there are reasons to pay MORE than retail.

Re:I used to vigilante too

[FortranDragon]

I have to say that for all the problems and accusations about pay-pal, it is a hallmark of an honest seller.

Unfortunately, PayPal is the first resort of the deadbeat buyer. :-/ PayPal only gives seller protection in the US and only if you use something like signature-on-delivery to show the item did arrive safely. Outside the US there is *no* seller protection. In fact, if you sell to a country outside PayPal's authorized list you can get your account cancelled.

Even requiring the buyer to use funds from a bank account won't protect you. The buyer can do a 'charge back' or equivalent at any time and you, the seller, have to prove you sent the item and it was received. When PayPal protects the buyer and the seller equally and fairly I'll start using the service.

I like selling wierd cheap wierd stuff

[N8F8]

What is this vigilante stuff gets out of hand and peple start closing down auctions for stuff they don't like: religious articles, Nazi memoralbilia, etc?

Example :I was wandering around a local church yard sale and stumbled across a book filled with pictures of dead people. So I bought it and put it up on EBay [ebay.com].

Covering your butt

[ljavelin]

eBay's feedback system is pretty effective. A combintation of eBay feedback and how the seller represents the goods can really help you determine how legit the seller is.

Also, it is reasonable to send the seller and email, or call the seller. You can even have someone visit the seller if necessary.

As both a buyer and a seller, I've had very few problems. I bought one item that didn't work as advertised, but it was only $9. Not a bad loss.

I've sold some stuff to a bunch of people that didn't pay. All said, illegit bidders cost me over $85. That pisses me off, but it's part of business on eBay.

I always make sure that there's a lot of quality feedback when buying. If there are some negative feedbacks, I read them and try to figure out who the loser is. Often times, the loser is a first-time (and last-time) eBay buyer.

A seller with little-to-no feedback is a huge warning sign. I can't imagine someone selling on eBay without first buying several items on eBay. It's OK to buy from a person with little feedback, as long as then item is very little money. I won't panic if I lose a few bucks (like less than $10).

I watch to see where the product is coming from. Something that's in the USA is much safer in my eyes. It's rare that someone will be selling a Plasma TV on eBay from some east Asian country. I simply stay away from that kind of unwieldy, unlikely-to-be-true stuff.

Paypal is easier for me as a buyer and seller. However, PayPal's fee (for the seller) is quite high. I usually sell with some kind of proof-of-delivery. I understand that Paypal doesn't offer me any real protection - so I always think safety first.

Been doing this a while on Yahoo

[adzoox]

If you think eBay has rampant fraud - you should look at the Mac section of yahoo auctions. It is just an obvious (at least) 80% fraudulent auctions.

I've used their auction alert system for about 2 years and it really works, it's an easy system to tell yahoo that something is wrong with an auction. It allows "you and me" to police auctions - ebay should have something similar.

Re:I used to vigilante too

[haraldm]

These FUDs against "fun bidding" are void, at least here in Germany. According to German law (Fernabsatzgesetz), you can devoid a remote buying contract within 14 days without any specific reason.

As far as eBay, these folks don't take their own terms and conditions serious. I don't remember how often I reported one specific seller due to duplicate auctions (still forbidden according to the German terms and conditions). All I get is form e-mails. A day or two later, the seller usually changes all but one of the dupes completely, and continues as usual. This specific seller also attempts to bully people in order to avoid negative feedback. eBay did nothing about it. The point is that eBay has a monopoly, and the lack of competition makes them talk not act.

Not Just Ebay!

[Grimster]

I was looking around for an Apple notebook, Ebay/Yahoo/Amazon etc, was looking at the $2999 17" Apple notebook at Amazon and noticed the "X new & used from $1720" I was like "hmm $1720 that's a pretty good price" and I checked it out, the guy who was selling it said his grandmother got him one for Xmas as a going to college present but he'd already gotten one through a school program, etc etc, so it seemed legitimate enough to this point. So I asked how did he want payment, and he wanted to use an "escrow server because it's safer for us both" (uh huh....) well he gave me the URL for the escrow and I whois'd it, the domain was less than a week old (???) Verisign logos, etc yet the certificate was an instant-ssl free certificte (???x2).

Definite scam, emailed Amazon and the hosting provider, site was pulled, Amazon never replied, I forgot all about it, about a month later I get ANOTHER email from this guy, different Amazon account, same URL, new host... the cycle continues...

Apparently Amazon did nuke his account, and his web host pulled the fake escrow site, DNS update, new Amazon account, and he's back up and running.

Kinda makes you want to go to Chuck E Cheese and play whack-a-mole, for all the good you do tracking these bastards down they just pop up out of another hole.

Re:It's a scary world

[dasunt]

It's a scary world when you have to include a disclaimer such as "Yo, it's a joke -- no need to start a super-secret file on me." in a Slashdot post making parody of the president. The Patriot Act has proven far too powerful and unjust.

On Kuro5hin, there was a comment [kuro5hin.org] during the anthrax scare about how to assassinate the president of the United States by infecting the vice president with an infectious disease.

The poster of that message received a visit from the United States Secret Service.

From the analysis of that tale, it seems that if you are flagged as a dangerous individual (through, presumably, religion, association with certain political groups, region of origin, etc) and make a nasty comment on a monitored website, the powers that be will investigate.

Scary thought indeed.

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Re:I used to vigilante too

[mkro]

Cool, you host a free webmail service, and you read peoples e-mail when you are suspicious?
So, how many people from my company/IP would have to register before you feel justified to start reading our mail?

Re:Ebay has let users work to close these fakes do

[Alan Cox]

Ebay don't seem to care about reported fake auctions. They do jump pretty qucik on reported copyright/trademark infringements (including sometime screwing up and stopping legit auctions), but they don't seem to care about hoaxes. You'd think they would at least spend some time on that, and on working with the legal people to follow back frauds to the original source.

Re:I used to vigilante too

[jrockway]

One. It's his computer... if you put your data on it why WOULDN'T he read it!?

Re:This could backfire in the vigilante's face.

[tdrury]

Because ebay vigilantes don't sign up using valid contact information. You have very little recourse in tracking them down. Ebay will terminate any account whose contact information they cannot verify, but by then, it's too late.