RFID Casino Chips 271
scubacuda writes "Could casinos be the next Gillette or Wal-Mart? New Scientist and others report that casinos could soon start using RFID tags to spot counterfeits and thefts, and also to monitor the behaviour of gamblers. Embedded RFID tags should make the chips much harder to counterfeit, and placing tag readers at staff exits could cut down on theft by employees.
(With companies like Infosys helping clients identify and plan pilot RFID projects, we'll no doubt be seeing more and more companies dabbling in this area. Those interested in reading objections to RFID use should check out the position paper issued by CASPIAN, EPIC, Privacy Rights Clearinghouse, Junkbusters, ACLU, Meyda Online, EFF, and PrivacyActivism.)"
Ouch for card counters... (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh no,! They'll.. wait.. what does this add? (Score:2, Insightful)
Link me to them... (Score:5, Insightful)
I love to go to the casino and play card games like Blackjack or more importantly Craps. Accurate tracking of chips tagged to me would mean two things: accurate comping and the ability to have a technical solution to ensuring payouts are correct.
Those of you who have played craps at a busy table will know what I mean -- the accuracy of your payouts when you win is always in the hands of the "dealer" working your half of the table. I've been payed wrong many times, sometimes in my favor, sometimes not. Sometimes money comes in from bets I forgot I had on the table, sometimes I wonder if I got missed on a payout.
If this means that questioning a missed payout can be more accurate or means at a minimum the casino can see in aggregate when they have someone working the table who consistently makes payout errors, more power to them.
This isn't a privacy issue. If you think you have one spec of anonymity or privacy in a casino, you're nuckin futs.
It's a private business. (Score:4, Insightful)
If you don't like it, you can go to another casino that doesn't use RFID chips. Ain't America grand?
More power to 'em (Score:5, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, privacy in a casino is highly sought (Score:5, Insightful)
How does this even remotely relate to "your rights"? Casino chips are the equivalent of "disney cash" in theme parks, IE under normal circumstances they are only used within the casino itself. Preventing loss would make the casino more money, and they might even use that to raise your pay tables when you're gaming.
The articles mention monitoring gamblers, but come on... you're in a casino! Your movements are tracked by a hundred cameras from the time you walk in to the time you walk out. Casino employees on the floor are designed to monitor your movement and habits and either 1) ask you to leave or 2) give you a free buffet coupon, depending on what you are doing. You have no privacy whatsoever and very little anonymosity in a casino. Sometimes that works out to your advantage.
Yes, there are bad uses for RFID. I don't see this as being one of them. Next thing you know people will be crying out because a warehouse wants to use RFID on crates for inventory control.
Oh, wait...
Hilarious (Score:4, Insightful)
And also watched by the government gaming commissions closely, lest their gambling license get taken away or worse.
And you're worried about fucking RFID technology in their chips?
Casinos are one of the few places you should absolutely stay away if you are so paranoid like that.
Re:Ouch for card counters... (Score:5, Insightful)
But, most casinos don't allow you to play BJ there is they think you are a counter. I've never heard of a casino being 'advantage' player friendly. If they did, I can only guess they'd have the worst possible game set up...as far as dealer stands, payoffs...shuffle after each deal.
Suck if the RFID broke on your $1000 chip... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:This actually seems like a good use of RFID (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not like they'll be tracking you with their chips at the grocery store.
No, they'll be tracking you at the tables. "Comps" are bestowed based on how much money you wager. If the chips are associated with you when they're sold, then they can track where and when you wagered it and comp you accordingly.
Re:This actually seems like a good use of RFID (Score:4, Insightful)
So, say you have a really good night...you cash out $9999, walk out with the rest...cash it out in small doses over time so you stay under the $10K radar. That way, all cash.....hard to track that.
Re:Ouch for card counters... (Score:5, Insightful)
Having a few readers in the cage to verify authenticity before giving out cash in exchange, would be a much more efficient use of RFID.
Ah, the party line: (Score:5, Insightful)
RFID: Sure there are a few legit uses for the technology, but there are illegitimate uses. BAN IT!
"Your Rights"? (Score:2, Insightful)
I manage to avoid the surveillance problem and keep all my money by the simple expedient of not entering their establishment.
Re:Ouch for card counters... (Score:4, Insightful)
Anyways, spotting a lone card counter really isn't that hard anyways. To be a really effective counter, your betting levels needs to swing wildely from 10-1 if you're using a hi-lo count, and pit bosses can see it a mile away.
It's team play that is really hard for casinos to spot, like when a spotter can call other people in when a shoe is hot, and they can bet huge.
GOOD for them!!! (Score:4, Insightful)
They're NOT putting these in items you buy, they're NOT using them to track you out the door, and they DO have a very real need to prevent counterfeits. There's increased security for them, and no invasion of privacy for their customers.
Where's the problem here? Geez, between this and the "forged colour mars photos," it MUST be a slow news day.
Oh, wait--both of these were posted by Michael. Interesting...
Re:Ouch for card counters... (Score:4, Insightful)
In fact, I don't see this as an issue at all. The casino already knows how many chips I buy, they can keep track of how many I win, and I cash them in before I leave.
The real issue with RFIDs is that they can be used to track people over time, and for purposes much different than their announced use. I'd have absolutely no problem with Wal-Mart (or whoever) using RFIDs to track inventory if they were somehow turned off when I purchased the merchandise, somewhat like the magnetic devices that are currently used for anti-theft measures.
Whaaaat? (Re:GOOD for them!!!) (Score:3, Insightful)
And why do you think you'll only be tracked while on the casino property? Most people who go to Vegas stay there for several days, and keep their chips with them when they leave the casino for the night, until it's time to go home. They don't cash out at the end of every session. Most casinos will in fact accept chips from other casinos. You can use Luxor chips at Caesars, and so forth. You can bet that the Caesars will install the equipment to install Luxor's and everyone else's. So you'll be tracked no matter what casino you go in. For that matter, every local restaurant may also install equipment to read the RFID's and they'll track you too.
Worst of all, the local muggers may also get RFID equipment. Walk past one on the sidewalk on the way to a restaurant with $3000 in chips in your pocket, and the mugger will know the demonination, serial number, and issuing casino of every chip. It makes their target selection a lot more efficient. They could even give you an automatically printed receipt to file with your police report, but somehow I don't think they'll do that.
Sheesh.
Who'd have thunk it, a legit use (Score:3, Insightful)
That is NOT the case if something is being actually sold to me. Ownership is changing hands at WalMart or wherever you shop, and I don't want something that is becoming MY property to come with auto-tracking mechanisms. If I want an auto-tracking system, I'll damn well install it myself.
But at a casino, what is being sold is entertainment, not poker chips. The chips are on-premesis loaned use, and so tracking those against theft is perfectly legitimate. Ownership is not changing hands, so RFIDs are not infringing on my property or privacy rights.
Re:Ouch for card counters... (Score:3, Insightful)
some people are really good at tracking a shuffle of a normal dealer, i have seen it done before without use of anything but your own brain...you can use some of these same techniques on a continuous shuffler. it is a lot harder than counting though!
and it is a good thing that not everyone counts(successfully) otherwise all the casinos would switch to these continuous shufflers.
There is a huge difference (Score:4, Insightful)
Now, if casinos sell souvenir (poker) chips... hopefully those wont have active (rfid) chips in them.
Hell, they should put RFIDs in rental DVD/VHS cases, so they can track down the bastard who hasn't returned that one copy of THX1138.
Actually, inventory departments of companies might do well to RFID their equipment, especially with a wireless network full of floating laptops...
Re:I don't understand gambling (Score:3, Insightful)
always gamble responsibly though. the worst is people who get addicted and gamble away their family's food or rent money.
great idea, IMHO (Score:3, Insightful)
in a case like this, this is an excellent use for RFID. protecting your own property by tracking the stuff that's yours using tags that you put in your own stuff is a perfect way to cut down on theft. in a casino, this is especially important. and having an RFID detector when people cash in makes for a good way to make sure the proper amount of money is redeemed.
i still don't want these things in my jeans.It'll make the mugger's lives easier (Score:3, Insightful)
Fluffy version of story submission (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Ouch for card counters... (Score:2, Insightful)
Is it illegal for the casino to count cards?
No, it's called preferential shuffling, and it's perfectly legal. However, if they used RFIDs in the cards, at the very least they'd have to tell you, in which case no one would play blackjack at that casino. Well, actually, some people probably would, but not as many.
And this wouldn't be legal in Atlantic City, because all game rules in Atlantic City have to be approved by the government.
Re:Link me to them... (Score:3, Insightful)
Ever notice when you're sitting at a blackjack table and the pit boss comes over and asks the dealer how you're doing? If you think this is just about comps, you're fooling yourself. Casinos want to know whenever someone is up so they know who to watch for being a counter. Since there's nothing illegal about counting, the game is really about them identifying the counter before he takes too much of their money. It's that cat and mouse game that's where the real fun in Vegas lies for a lot of us.
That's what these RFID's are about...they're upping the ante for more simply identifying card counters. If you can have a computer monitor whether a player is up or down, you drastically reduce the number of people you have to watch. Currently, if you feel the pit boss is taking note of you, you can just color out and move to a different table. With RFIDs, they'd much more easily be able to watch you by the security cameras. That and they'd be able to track you between tables unless you visit the cashier every time (a pain, especially when you hit that magic $10,000 mark.)
They can talk about employee theft all they want, but as other posters have pointed out, security measures are already extremely tight and employee theft isn't really that big of an issue. The bigger issue is that blackjack has been broken statistically but is still makes very good profits because the vast majority of players are clueless. This seems like just another salvo in the war against the clued-in.
Re:Ouch for card counters... (Score:4, Insightful)
Casinos are all about trying to make the customer happy so they can take their money. The minute you go from someone they can make money from to someone they suspect is trying to unfairly take money from them they start playing hardball.
Denial Of Service (Score:1, Insightful)
Blackmailers will love it
Finally... (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm sure that there's lots of people who are crying "invasoon of privacy", etc, but this is one situation where you truly decided to play by thier rules when you walked through that door, and keeping track of thier own property is in no way an invasion of thier employees or thier customers privacy.
Re:Ouch for card counters... (Score:3, Insightful)
That being said, an extremely good counter can bet on (excuse the pun) being blacklisted in Las Vegas, but that's a tiny, tiny percentage of players overall. An average card counter will simply be denied perks, and be viewed with some suspicion. If you play 250-500 hands a year, the comps more than offset the average counter's edge. If you play more that that, it depends on how good a counter you are.
Now that I've vented, I'll get back on topic. RFIDs in casino chips bother me not. The privacy implications for someone who gambles are nil, and the advantage in more accurate play tracking so outweigh any privacy issues, it's not even funny. You don't take chips home (are you stupid? they have cash value only in the casino), the first thing you do when you sit at a table in Vegas is utter the words "I want to be rated", and _every casino wants to keep its player to itself. Hence their reluctance to sell their mailing lists.
A Final Thought: If you find yourself up $75k at the $20 minimum table and a host offers you a suite and RFB, ask for show tickets, take the deal and walk away. And send me some money for my sage advice.
-Prong
Cool. More efficiency in mugging (Score:3, Insightful)