Ask Prof. Felten About DMCA's Effects 169
Princeton Computer Science Professor Edward W. Felten has been mentioned and quoted frequently on Slashdot, usually about DMCA matters and, more recently, about new state laws that may make it illegal to use "unapproved" networking devices, VPNs or firewalls with your home or office Internet connection. Please avoid questions that can be answered by reading the pages linked to here or with a bit of Google research. We'll post Prof. Felten's answers to 10 of the highest-moderated questions as soon as he has time to answer them.
Just one question (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Just one question (Score:3, Interesting)
I liked your question and I thought I would take a stab at it because I think that there are competing forces at work. Ignoring some of them to answer the question may overlook important facets of the answer.
I doubt that anyone could dispute that the overwhelming majority of computing is done with commercially available software. A huge driving
From your discussions with them ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, if you are aware of it, have the hardware/software manufacturers who will be affected joined together to fight these laws, or has it flown under their radar?
Re:From your discussions with them ... (Score:2, Interesting)
Is there a tell-tale characteristic consistently associated with a company's policy on this sort of thing?
Hey, you're a teacher, right? (Score:3, Insightful)
Better yet, are there any other countries that have eqivalent programs to our H1-B system? I could always go live as an indentured servant to an American software company overseas.
If this fall through, however, I have dibbs on learning to rebuild engines for a living.
Re:Hey, you're a teacher, right? (Score:1, Offtopic)
Given that the things we need to do in our jobs will be illegal in a couple of years
What exactly do you do at your job that will be illegal in a couple of years?
go corrections! (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Hey, you're a teacher, right? (Score:1)
How about 'drama'?
Re:Hey, you're a teacher, right? (Score:2)
What sort of positive legistlation? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:What sort of positive legistlation? (Score:1, Insightful)
Flamebait, sure, but it does make me wonder how far we'll allow politicians to damage both our freedom and our ability to earn a living at the behest of their corporate masters.
Unfortunately, I think this willingness to bend over and take it is reasonably high; the fact that guys like Ken Lay are still walking around indicates that the number of nuts per tho
right on (Score:1, Informative)
And I was pretty good at it. I was promoted three times in the two years I was there and spent most of my day handling P1 cases or helping out the lower level techs. Well, the company did some cutbacks. They kept the H1 workers then had in the call center and they canne
Re:right on (Score:2)
How is someone who just started doing the job better than someone who got promoted twice?
I'm assuming he can spell... (Score:2)
Priceton Computer Science Professor Edward W. Felten...
Can he spell the name of his school better than Roblimo can?
Re:I'm assuming he can spell... (Score:2)
- Robin
Spelling? (Score:3, Funny)
Will ISPs exercise more restrictove TOS now? (Score:4, Insightful)
Do you see ISPs taking advantage of the new rules to force customers to purchase additional IPs to connect all the machines in the house, or will they recognize one of the selling points of broadband and permit multiple PCs on a single cable modem?
Re:Will ISPs exercise more restrictove TOS now? (Score:1)
Re:Will ISPs exercise more restrictove TOS now? (Score:2, Interesting)
"If your computer doesn't need a real-world ip address, purchase a Linksys wireless router and set them up behind NAT. There is no need to purchase additional IPs from us unless your computer needs a 'rea
Re:Will ISPs exercise more restrictove TOS now? (Score:2)
I was told the same thing by the installers from Charter - unoffically. They suggested the linksys before I showed them the linux firewall.
The head doesn't know what the tail is doing.
Network Identity (Score:5, Interesting)
In other words, are we talking about "people" or "boxes"?
Have to Assume the Worst (Score:5, Interesting)
I work for a big ISP that sells several kinds of VPN services, as well as selling routers to users who want to manage the routers themselves. I'd rather not see our Michigan sales reps risk being hauled into jail
Re:Network Identity (Score:1)
With all due respect ot the previous reply to this post, I would like to disagree and State that "people" or more accuratly Accountibility is what is covered.
I agree that the letter of the law makes many of the common network devices like NAT's and Firewalls appear questionable. I believe the intent of the law and therefore (it can be hoped) the statutes that will be made will cover accountibility.
I believe the intent of all this is to ensure that there is responcibility for the action
Feasibility? (Score:3, Interesting)
- A.P.
Chinese bueracracy (Score:1, Interesting)
Everyone was a potential criminal, and if they crossed the PTB, it wasn't hard to find some law that they had broken to charge them with.
Conversely, it's easy to get the minders to look the other way as long as you have the money to grease the right palms. (Hope you didn't invest in Enron or Tyco, mate!)
That is exactly what we're getting into no
selective enforcement (Score:2)
In North Carolina, we had a law against "open alcoholic beverages" in automobiles, much like any state. For about a month, there was a lot of publicity about how the law was no longer in effect. However, without much fanfare, the law is back in effect.
My wife works in the courthouse, and the district attorneys and police officers don't even know whether it is a law or not. So basically, instead of even having to know the law (hard enough wi
Re:Feasibility? (Score:1)
They often have a per-computer charge or a maximum number of devices or computers that are allowed to connect.
It usually costs significantly more than a regular connection.
Tell me... (Score:5, Interesting)
Or to put it slightly less sillily, what was (and is!) your motivation for getting involved in this side of the Computer Science world, say, as opposed to the nice safe, clean theoretical stuff?
unauthorized devices (Score:5, Interesting)
-Sean
Intent Vs Effect (Score:4, Interesting)
Some of the provisions of these laws, especially those being so easily misinterpreted or misused, seem to not have any practical intent other than taking rights away from the consumer.
Looking at the original intent of the laws (and hoping it wasn't as bad as they have turned out), what do you think went wrong, and what can be changed?
Re:Intent Vs Effect (Score:1)
-uso.
No, I'm not kidding.
Re:Intent Vs Effect (Score:2)
Re:Intent Vs Effect (Score:1)
-uso.
In Soviet Russia, all our base are belong to YOU!
Prohibition of what got us here? (Score:5, Interesting)
It seems this simple fact alone would highlight the ludicrous nature of a law which would prohibit precisely the actions that provided the current state of the industry.
Xesdeeni
Re:Prohibition of what got us here? (Score:2)
Are you aware that the DMCA specifically allows reverse engineering for the purpose of compatibility?
Re:Prohibition of what got us here? (Score:1)
Re:Prohibition of what got us here? (Score:2)
In my considered opinion, the exception was not intended to function, from which it follows that the intention is to prevent the reverse-engineering of future IBM PCs.
A simple one. (Score:3, Funny)
g
Im Curious (Score:2, Funny)
Signal to Noise (Score:5, Interesting)
It's unlikely that the handful of consitutents is going to vote against the candidate purely because of their DMCA stance. Personally, I'm very against the DMCA but when the election time comes around, I'm not voting for the anti-DMCA candidate, I'm voting for the guy who's going to fix the economy and patch our international relationships. So how can somebody like myself really get their voice heard by the right people when the threat of "voting for the other candidate" isn't credible?
What's it gonna take? (Score:5, Interesting)
What's it going to take to get not only our legislators in their infinite wisdom, but the general public, to see the deleterious effects that DRM enforcement efforts and laws like the DMCA are/will have on both the entertainment and computer industries and our rights in general?
From experience, it's pretty difficult to explain exactly why the DMCA is so awful to the average person--it's very hard, for me at least, to provide a 60-second explanation of why I should be able to open up my digital VCR and find out how the software controlling it works, or why it's so bad that there's copy protection on a CD, rendering it useless for playing in a computer?
Perhaps if I could find just the right way to frame the argument, and get that message out, we might have some more people concerned about these matters.
mixed CDs (Score:2)
I don't know about you, but I, and a lot of people I know, do NOT like to keep $500 worth of CDs in my car!
As more people start using mp3/ogg devices/computers as stereos, they will start to see the negative side of these new restrictions.
Re:What's it gonna take? (Score:2)
I have two answers.
1. The car analogy: these laws are like laws which would require manufacturer to weld the hood of your ca
Internet radio (Score:5, Interesting)
A seemingly benign oversight in the wording can have major implications. Do you forsee significant changes/corrections to the DMCA along these lines? Why or why not...
Re:Internet radio (Score:2, Informative)
And this is the problem, and IMO a reason *not* to differentiate between the two - how can you make sure that no copy is being saved if you can't 'trust' the client that is downloading the content? To really make a difference, you need a working DRM-type system (which doesn't neccessarily mean it has to be protected by law); if you don't want DRM, it's *always* possible to reverse-engineer the protocol and record the content (case in point:
Re:Internet radio (Score:2)
Roadblocks to IP protections? (Score:5, Interesting)
For example, if company M utilized a software algorithm (putting aside the argument about software patents for the moment) inside an encrypted data stream (audio file, video file, etc.) that was actually patented by company A, wouldn't it be a violation of the DMCA for company A to investigate this violation of their patent rights? And wouldn't any evidence they uncovered in violation of the DMCA be inadmissible if they tried to enforce their patent rights against company M?
Xesdeeni
Blanks and Politics (Score:5, Interesting)
Wiping out the ability to enact from behind a firewall will in some cases force the individual to assume social responsibility for their actions, and in others, it could cause a perfectly harmless but useful and constructive citizen to not want to take part. (the way that i don't want to fly on an airline that checks my credit info every time i try to board a plane.) In short, do you view this as a critically restrictive measure where society's NEW ideas come into the picture? Are we in danger of alienating the very people who would be responsible for future innovation of everything around us? I'm one of those who would be alienated, because I view this as an inalienable right to privacy.
DMCA and EUCD (Score:5, Interesting)
- Brian.
FUD (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:FUD (Score:2)
where the 'right to tinker' came in handy.... (Score:5, Interesting)
You are a vocal and staunch proponent of the 'right to tinker'. I understand and support your views on this subject, but I was wondering if you could give us a few examples where the 'right to tinker' was imperative to a major innovation? What innovations may have never come about or been delayed if the 'right to tinker' had never been a assumed privilege of the American citizen?
Keep up the good work!
Re:where the 'right to tinker' came in handy.... (Score:2)
Re:where the 'right to tinker' came in handy.... (Score:2)
Just a small nit. They didn't even need to disassemble the code. The original PC, PC/XT and PC/AT's came with manuals that included full schematics and BIOS listings!
Re:where the 'right to tinker' came in handy.... (Score:2)
After some googling, I was able to find a site that expands on your statement. Compaq couldn't take the BIOS listings and copy them for obvious legal reasons, but the way they got around this was rather novel. Take a look! [oldcomputers.net]
Re:where the 'right to tinker' came in handy.... (Score:2)
Then they had another group which thoroughly analyzed the IBM listings and created a detailed specification (i.e. INT XX, AH=yy does this, with this output, etc...). They then handed this specification (containing only a blackbox description of the IBM BIOS) to the coders, who then wrote a BIOS to that specification. It passed a court test, IIRC, and is now the standard
Firewalls and "concealment" (Score:2, Interesting)
Question 1:
If I am running a firewall on a linux box, and NAT'ing the computers in my house, am I masking the identity of myself, or my machines, (violating the law) since all of the computers belong to me and I am willing to accept responsibility for all traffic?
Question 2:
If I run a linux firewall and only one client behind it, am I breaking the law since I am not NAT'Ting more than one PC, and am using the linux box as a firewall device only, not as a client?
It seems to follow that I am respo
The DMCA And Independant Musicians (Score:5, Interesting)
Corporate Impact? (Score:5, Interesting)
DMCA and other laws (Score:5, Interesting)
Software and media piracy is no longer an underground sub-culture. Just about anyone with enough money for a computer is able to easily find and illegally duplicate software, music, movies, and other media. Worse yet, most of the (former) music and movie buying public are doing just that.
The only "reasonable" alternative to strengthening laws and adding copy-protection to media is to give the media away, and make money with live appearances and peripheral tangible products, such as lunchboxes and t-shirts. I'm sure the people working for media conglomerates do not find this acceptable.
Do you agree with this assessment, and if so, if you had the chance to re-architect the DMCA to your liking, what would you change? Would you remove some parts, or augment others?
Re:DMCA and other laws (Score:5, Insightful)
The ONLY important question in IP legislation is whether or not it will enhance the public domain. Whether anyone can make money, or whether the existing entertainment industry can adapt is totally irrelevent.
This is why (legally protected) DRM is such a bad thing - because it limits access to work far beyond the limits of copyright, and therefore detracts from the public domain, rather than adding to it.
The idea that media conglomerats have some sort of rights here is a fundamental falsehood, and it only makes it harder to focus on the true issues. Copyright law doesn't care if anyone makes money off of it. The buisness interests of anyone, musician or international megacorporation, do not and should not figure into the equation at all.
Re:DMCA and other laws (Score:2)
Your first paragraph doesn't make much sense to me. The US Constitution says:
Now, how does this expressed intent relate to "expanding the public domain?" I suspect that it has more to do with facilitating commerce by limiting the public domain. But benefit to the public domain was cert
Re:DMCA and other laws (Score:1)
Why is this the only "reasonable" alternative? (And why is "reasonable" in quotes?)
As far as I can tell, no one has made any kind of effort to actually educate consumers on copyright law.
Content Vs. Distribution (Score:5, Interesting)
Fighting back... (Score:5, Interesting)
Basically, almost everyone with a technological background will agree that this law is flawed. Is this soemthing without precendence? That Congress acted on pure ignorance, of course not.
My question to you Mr. Felten, do you think this law will inspire a new breed of creativity among hardware developers?
Maybe the same way copyright inspired copyleft, the DMCA is a form for companies to protect their products, and stop other people from profiting on those products (god forbid!), but since this really throws onto the pile, and adds hardware materials in to the copyright bin, maybe it will inspire some hardware enthousiasts to create copylefted hardware? blueprints and materials created by the people who love to tamper, and who would put a type of GPL on the specific materials as to prevent anyone from trying to hide the actual source if you will, of the product in question.
I personally think this would go a long way, engineers could actually start making money, by receiving support from people who enjoy their products, and suggest ways to improve such things. (Currently hard working engineers make billions for their respective companies and bring him mearly pennies to feed their families.)
I might be way off base, as the production line has it's fee's, but even tho it would be copylefted, dosen't mean it couldn't be sold, just means that anyone could improve it, or modify it.
Thanks for your time. Remi
Re:Fighting back... (Score:2)
There's already a couple projects with exactly that in mind:
Preemptive answers (Score:5, Informative)
Prof. Felten has a weblog, Freedom to Tinker [freedom-to-tinker.com]. It may answer some questions in advance. He is also teaching a class this semester called "Information Technology and the Law". The readings are online [princeton.edu].
Definition or origin and destination? (Score:1, Interesting)
When I read the law, I assumed that the "place of origin" of all of my
Greetings, Professor Felten (Score:3, Funny)
Micromonopolies (Score:4, Interesting)
All of that said (whew, sorry)...
Now that the DMCA has been passed and pretty much defended in the courts, isn't it starting to form "minimonopolies" (or "micromonopolies")? If so (or not), why? And do you see this changing over time? If it hurts the consumer, what do you think it'll take for the consumer to vote with their pocketbook and modify this?
Thank!
Where would you go to have digital freedom? (Score:1, Interesting)
Super DMCA and anonymity (Score:5, Interesting)
Why do you claim that these technologies would be outlawed by the so-called Super DMCA laws, even though using these technologies does not involve falsifying the source or destination of any of my packets? Isn't it more likely that these laws are directed against IP spoofing, where people do in fact falsify these fields, to the great detriment of the net?
Re:Super DMCA and anonymity (Score:2)
Strategy (Score:5, Interesting)
Do you feel that it would be a good time for a shift in strategy towards more active measures such as forming a group to lobby representatives directly, issuing mailings about the DMCA particularly to those whose representatives support legislation like the DMCA/UCITA/SSSCA, or beginning a television ad campaign? Such an endeavor is bound to cost a bit, but I can't help but feel that particularly with 2004 coming up having a bit of organized PR on our side of the debate would be quite helpful.
DMCA protects items not entitled to protection (Score:2)
Perhaps look up a giant thesaurus for a phrase more precise than "access control measure". Privilege control measure?
Companies do not have a right to protect that which is not protected by copyright, patent, nor trademark law.
They do this blindly, illegally, and without due process (even the due process provided by the DMC
Differences by State? (Score:1, Interesting)
Those who are in the process of moving might be in the position where they're undecided about one place or another and turn it into an opportunity to protest an unjust law. Take those skills and dollars to better places.
And as an aside to the
When the economy recovers and the jobs come back, a lot of folks are going to be moving around in a relatively short period of time. Be useful to have some sort of comparison list
DMCA or Copyright in general? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:DMCA or Copyright in general? (Score:2)
One should keep in mind that it's not copyright unto itself that is a problem. Unto itself, the copyright is a good thing. It's two things that make it a problem though - abusers (legitimate pirates) and the vocal minority (the {RI,MP}AA).
Propaganda war (Score:2, Interesting)
Pirates or Heroes?
Media giants are portraying as "pirates" those who copy and exchange copyrighted materials. History may well portray them differently. In 1773, the British government granted special tax status to the East India Company, at the expense of colonial merchants. The revolt that followed, the Boston Tea Party, was condemmed by the British government, but today those responsible are widely reg
Our position in the world (Score:5, Interesting)
Balance of Interests? (Score:4, Interesting)
Legal interpretation (Score:4, Interesting)
thanks.
IPv6 and Legislation (Score:1)
Do you think that something like this will be used to drive IPv6 adoption?
Also, what about the new studies that show that CD sales have slumped due to lack of investment in new bands and new releases by RIAA member-companies?
What exactly will constitute an "unapproved device"?
That's it from me
Queen B
Mod stuff down! (Score:2)
Use your power! Mod down those 5's that aren't of the highest quality. Mark them as overrated. Forget that dreck about how you should mod up more than mod down. You've got to be tou
Police State (Score:2)
what can we do? (Score:3, Interesting)
pragmatic question about 'fair use' (Score:5, Interesting)
The world I've lived in pre-Internet allowed me to, if I found a great newspaper article (or TV show episode) or song, to make a copy of it to pass along to one or a handful of friends to check out.
It certainly seems like this will be technologically unfeasible if/when sufficient copy protection becomes embedded in content-viewing technology in the mid-term future.
I know you aren't a lawyer, but you have parsed these laws carefully and talked to more lawyers than I. Did the type of usage I described above ever fall under 'fair use'? Is it 'fair use' today, and if not, is there a particular piece of legislation that changed the legality of this?
--LP
Ethics of technology on college campuses (Score:3, Interesting)
Recently, the vice provost of undergraduate studies in my university has initiated a series of activities aimed at getting active student input on improving the educational experience on our campus. One of my pet peeves with the studentry of my school is that they're rather apathetic and uninformed of political and social issues in the world surrounding us. Given that tomorrow these people would be engineers and scientists, and above all, citizens, I think it is vitally important that they are well aware of current social and legal issues in our technological society.
My two questions are: 1) how would you go about encouraging college students to become more interested in issues like the DMCA 2) do you feel that most engineering and science students in Princeton University have a good understanding of the legal and ethical issues in IT?
2600, and media in general (Score:3, Interesting)
Dear Dr. (Score:2)
It seems like the same bill get proposed with different names over ad over again. I would like to see something that protects are rights and would supercide new laws that take are ability to do what we want within our own homes. As long as we are not redistributing the content to other people outside our home.
Thanks for the link to Google (Score:2)
Offtopic, but last week someone told me they didn't get google on their computer home (whihc had an internet connection. So maybe the URL isn't so obviuous after all...
Anonymous remailers (Score:3, Interesting)
Any actual effects (Score:2)
The battle vs the war (Score:2)
My belief is that the Internet has just as much capability to transform civilization as did Gutenberg's invention some 500 years ago. The potention for Internet-connected people to share just about any information that can fit down the wire seems like a revolution in the making. And, as was the case a half millenia ago, it will surely take decades for society to wrestle with and eventually adapt to this new paradigm.
Napster was the first time most people became aware of this potential sea c
Question about hitting back (Score:2)
You have studied the laws much more than I have. One issue that I have is that the "protection" on my DVDs will never wear out. In other words, once the movies pass into the public domain, I will still be unable to de-encrypt them without breaking the law.
Do you know of (or would you consider starting?) a campaign to force hardware manufacturers to check the datestamp of the media being played, and if it falls outside the limited protection time granted by the government, "open up" th
Government failure, counter movement (Score:2)
Do you think this would be sufficent to create a substantical counterculture where copyrighted entertainment are commonly given under specific licences like the GPL to be safe from prosecution?
If criminal enforcement becomes common against users of decryption software do you think academia will embrace, promote, or even fund an entertainment counte
Re:Priceton (Score:2)
Re:I'm European... (Score:2)
You're next.
Re:Professor at Priinceton Univ (Score:1)
Re:Why no www? (Score:2)
True to geekiness, and abhoring waste and reduncancy (but, not, as it appears, typos, spelling errors, or duplicated headlines), the Nerdy One noted that the HTTP transport protocol in a URL implied a web server, rendering the "www" domain prefix redundant.
And so was conceived slashdot.org. Amen (or, Groan!, as the case may be).
The redundancy exist