Ebay vs. Musician

evenprime writes "Ebay's Verified Rights Owner Program was designed to make sure the auction site doesn't let people sell things that violate copyright laws. Unfortunately, over-zealous ebay employees have been causing problems for independent musicians. George Ziemann has a detailed account of the difficulties he's faced when trying to sell copies of his CD on the auction site. Apparently ebay kept pulling his ads simply because he was selling a product recorded to CD-R! Ebay employees assume that all audio recordings on CD-R are the result of piracy, despite the fact that many indie bands burn their own music to CD-R to sell it. Wired has a nice summary of this story."

Uh what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can go on Ebay right now and buy Vcd copies of pirated dvds and cdr copies of pirated music cds. And they are shutting down the people selling music they made?!?!? I don't understand.

Fair Play

[BoBaBrain]

E-bay is doing the right thing. They're under no obligation to sell every legal product that comes their way.

Refusing a few kosher items may pee-off the seller (and the few loyal fans), but accidentally selling one sour item could really land them in it.

Trite, bit is is better to be safe than sorry.

Re:CD-R?

[LordHunter317]

Not true. A CD and a CD-R are written to completely differently. A CD-R is still a CD-R. Find a really old, first-generation CD player. Try playing a CD-R in it. It won't, simply because it can comprehend the physical format. I don't know all the complex details, but I do know a CD-R != CD.

Re:CD-R? Because it is.

[iainl]

My in-car CD player doesn't cope with CD-R media, and neither to several DVD players from major brands (Sony, for instance). If I purchase something labelled as a 'CD' but find out it won't play on my equipment, then the guy is going to get negative feedback, trust me. They also degrade much faster than a properly pressed CD.

CD-Rs are not normal CDs. Labelling them as such is bad.

Ebay's odd about things.

[dave-fu]

I work with a guy who was unable to sell his Apex DVD player on Ebay because the MPAA got all in a tizzy saying that people were modifying the players to be region-free yadda yadda yadda. The fact that he advertised it as an "original, unmodified" version meant nothing and Ebay repeatedly put the kibosh on his auctions even though he had talked to "customer service" and explained that this was an unmangled off-the-shelf model.
So he gave up trying to sell it and burned the mod disk and now he can't stop raving about the import DVDs he can watch. I'm bitter because Breakin', Breakin' 2, Beat Street, Rappin', The Best Of Weird Weekends and all other sorts of DVDs I'd love to buy will likely never be released stateside.
And still the pirates march on on Ebay; pirates keep on doing their thing without being hassled by the man while people who do things by the book get fucked. I love intellectual "property" law.

Learn to state your case clearly

[jdavidb]

I sympathize with the man completely, but I wish he didn't let himself get sidetracked so easily. I would have sent a letter back that clearly and simply stated:

Your policy says CD-R's can only be sold by the copyright holder and only if the seller indicates this in the description. I am the copyright holder of the music on these CD's and clearly said so in my description, but you have removed my auctions. You have made this mistake twice. Please give me some assurances that I can sell my music in accordance with your policy without having my actions removed. Thank you.

I hate not being able to get a human to talk to me. He's frustrated enough from having them remove his auctions after a cursory glance that didn't even check to see if he followed their policy, and not being able to find someone who will talk to him about it makes it worse.

I also think his "can't sell this on ebay" logo is invalid; that would violate the right of first sale, wouldn't it; the right to resell anything you have bought? Part of fair use, last I checked.

Re:Cry me a river

[joshsisk]

If these quote-unquote artists really don't like it they could get together and start their OWN auction site, just for indie musicians.

There is one [skylabcommerce.com].

Beyond that, though, what's wrong with people complaining when someone you have entered a business relationship, complete with a CONTRACT, doesn't hold up their end of the bargain?

Parent poster doesn't get it..

[tomblackwell]

If you advertise on Ebay that you are selling a CD, then ship a CD-R, the purchase might (quite justifiably) accuse you of misrepresenting what you've sold, and give you negative feedback.

Re:CD-R?

[LBU.Zorro]

Not true again.

CDs and CDRs are not different IF THEY ARE SINGLE SESSION.

Older CD drives cannot hack the multi-session CDs, BUT single session copies are identicle to AudioCDs, and in fact data CDs. Undetectable to CD-Drives old / new.

Some car audio systems (Normally cheapo personal CD player conversions) use low powered lasers / optical pickups, and hence weren't able to read SOME Single Session CDRs (Depending on the quality of the burner and CDR media itself - been there since 2x was the tops). But they couldn't read anything but the cleanest CDs either so its no great loss.

So Single Session CDR == CD
Multi-Session CDR != CD

Also, the format can be comprehended, and that is the major issue, its that the format LOOKS like what it expects, but that it then does things it doesn't, like put a second start-stop table in for each burn, lead-out/ lead-in sections in the middle of the cd, etc... Thus it can read it but treats it as a very very skippy CD, and can't access all of the data on it (audio or actual data)...

Please get facts right before giving an statement such as the above.

Z.

Re:Misguided and frustrated musician doesn't get i

[joshsisk]

If you sell it as a plain CD, you are lying to your customers. Many older CD players will not play CD-Rs.

Except they're not, if you had RTFA

[kiwimate]

The guy's web site clearly states that he complied with all E-Bay rules. He is the copyright owner, which he stated in his listings.

He also gives screen shots of other E-Bay listings which are blatant rip-offs.

He also points out that E-Bay claimed that someone else had supposedly said they were the copyright holder. When he wrote back to them asking to know who was making this false claim so he could protect his copyright, E-Bay responded with a letter which ignored his request.

Good grief. Read the article. Idiot.

Re:CD-R?

[kaphka]

Find a really old, first-generation CD player.

Or, strangely enough, a somewhat less old, first-generation DVD player (circa 1997.) Apparently the type of laser used to read DVDs is close enough to the CD spec to read true CDs, but not CD-Rs, which are much harder to pick up. 2nd-generation DVD players solved that problem by including a second laser; I presume that's still what's done in modern DVD players, unless they've come up with something better.

Re:CD-R?

[jdreed1024]

So just sell it as a CD.

Uh, no. A CD is not the same as a CD-R. A CD consists of a plastic substrate with a thin layer of reflective material (usually aluminum, sometimes gold in higher-quality discs) embedded in it. The aluminum has small pits (or bumps, depending on your point of view) in it, and this is how the laser differentiates between 1s and 0s.

A CD-R has a plastic substrate, with a layer of reflective aluminum , and on top of that, a layer of (usually green-blue) transparent dye. It is impossible for a laser to make the pits and bumps in the aluminum layer with the precision required. Thus, it doesn't. What it does, is heat up the dye at specific places. When the dye is heated, it becomes opaque, thus blocking the aluminum layer from view. Thus, the reading laser sees bumps where the opaque dye is, thus creating 0s. So, a CD-R is essentially initialized to "1", and by "burning" it, you create zeros where necessary.

Because of the method used to produce CD-Rs, they do not have the longevity that regular CDs have. Excessive heat or sunlight can break down the dye-layer, causing read-errors. These errors can be compensated for (Sony/Phillips specs say that a CD must be able to have a 1mm hole drilled anywhere in the disc and still be read perfectly), but eventually, the CD will be unreadable.

CDs on the other hand, are pressed, not burned. They are created similarly to the way records were. A master glass (yes, glass) disc is created with a photo-reflective layer, and a laser is used to burn off the photo-reflective layer in portions (thus creating the 0s). That master is then "electroformed" to create the metal presses (which are the inverse of the surface of the CD). The presses become part of a mold, and the actual CD is injection molded, and picks up the microscopic bumps from the mold, which create the bumps on the CD itself. These molds can then be used over and over to make CDs extremely fast. Really, it's pretty much identical to the way a record used to be made, with a matrix, and then pressing onto vinyl. Because they are pressed, CD's are not as affected by environmental conditions. (Unless it gets so hot that the disc warps, but, well you've got other problems if that happens).

And that, kids, is why you can't advertise CD-Rs as CDs.

Re:CD-R?

[jerrytcow]

There is a defference in the physical media, which is what the poster was referring to. A CD-R copy of a CD may be identical bit for bit, but the actual disc in not the same.

A retail audio CD (or any other for that matter) is pressed. The data track is reflective, and pits are formed which change the reflectivity.

A CD-R has a clear dye layer and a reflective layer. The dye layer is heated by the laser during burning which causes it to become opaque. A CD-RW is essentially the same, but the dye can be changed from transparent to opaque like CD-Rs, but also opaque to transparent with different temperatures.

I'm an independent House DJ....

[ewwhite]

....and I've been selling my house mix CD's [ebay.com] for over two years on eBay to VERY favorable reviews [ebay.com]. I mix these live at home, or record live sets from my club gigs. I duplicate using CD-R's, since most duplication houses won't press REAL CD's in quantities of less than 1000 units.

I've never had an issue with eBay throughout all of this. I don't state explicitly in the auction listings [ebay.com] that these are CD-R's. That's unnecessary information. It's all about the content at that point. I think their violation-detection process is poor. I've had auctions forcefully cancelled for using words like "ass" (as in "Funky-ass house mix CD") or using the real titles of some of the raunchier tracks I play. It happens, though.

If y'all want to hear some good house music, hit up my website [djedwhite.com].

Re:CD-R? Because it is.

[ewwhite]

Well, I've been selling my DJ mix CD's [ebay.com] on eBay for several years now. My best seller is an 8-CD box set. Yes, these are CD-R's, as most duplication houses won't press *real* CD's in quantities of less than 1000. (Plus, this way, I have greater control over inventory) Of the 1500+ CD's I've sold in the past two years on eBay, only three buyers ended up with unplayable CD's. In those cases, I refunded their money or tried an alternative means of distribution (i.e. CD-RW discs that work in machines where CD-R's don't....or duplication at lower speeds). That's the right thing to do.

Re:CD-R? Because it is.

[Anonymous Coward]

They also degrade much faster than a properly pressed CD. Actually, there are several CD-R formats/dyes that last well over twice as long as pressed CDs. I remeber reading about some silver or titanium enhanced CDRs a while back that trump pressed discs by over a century. CD-Rs are much less error-prone as well. I have had countless problems with CDs pressed from glass masters, and spent many hours on the phone ranting at pressing plant flunkies. Unfortunately, CD-Rs aren't gauranteed to work on all players. Many people also view a CD-R that a band may burn/dupe as "less professional". As a musician, it ticks me off that we have to spend more money for a crappy product, just so that people will think it's professional :-( -Foo

Re:Learn to state your case clearly

[Registered Coward v2]

I also think his "can't sell this on ebay" logo is invalid; that would violate the right of first sale, wouldn't it; the right to resell anything you have bought? Part of fair use, last I checked.


A while ago, while a grad student, I did some resaerch into the right of first sale. I spoke with sevral lawyers, and the general concensus was the "right of first sale" is in murkey legal water. Basically, there is no universal, US -wide iron-clad right to sell any item you purchased, since the laws vary from state to state. I had expected it to be very clear-cut, but discovered it wasn't so.

Two sidebars:

Some of my legal research was done on-line in the mid 90's for teh article - it was interesting to see lawyers using the net to offer free advice - as one put it, if only few calls results in business it's still a good deal for him.

I got into this becuse my B-school admins forbade us selling our case books - the (very expensive) compilations of HBS cases, articles and other material that supplemented our textbooks. At 70-100+ $ a book, they cost more thna a real, printed textbook. The school didn't want us to resell them beacuse they negotiated a discount on the copyright fees based on expected annual revnue, and resales potentially cut into that. So, we couldn't advertise casebooks for sale on campus.

CDR's on eBay

[Dr. Awktagon]

Well, I've run into this policy a few times, not for my own music, but for music from CD-R-only labels. A lot of independent electronic musicians that I listen to are on small "bedroom labels". And when I sell some extra CDs on eBay I like to sell those too. They are NOT illegal copies, they are legit, original, sometimes with hand-made and hand-numbered inserts.

I've tried all the following:

1. "This is a CD-R."
2. "This is a CDR."
3. "This is a C.D.R."
4. "This CD is from a CD-R only label!"
5. "This CD is green on the bottom, if you know what I mean."
6. "This CD was made in someone's bedroom."

The only one that was pulled was #1. They might've expanded their filter to catch #2 or #3 but that's how it was when I was testing out variations.

Note that in every auction containing "CD-R", I noticed in my logs the next morning that a machine from eBay's netblock came and viewed the auction. Due to variations in the user-agent, and because sometimes they visited twice in the space of a few minutes, I believe they have a Real Live(tm) employee do it. What a wonderful job, eh? And they ONLY pull the auction when it clearly and unambiguously says the item is a CD-R. So I guess if you want to keep them busy, put "THIS IS NOT A CD-R" in all your auctions.

Nowdays, I just don't bother saying it's a CDR or anything. This music is obscure enough that the buyers usually know, and nobody's complained. Great policy, huh? In the meantime, people are selling unauthorized CDRs left and right, and they don't get caught.

I saw this one guy selling CDs without good descriptions or pictures.. I checked his feedback.. full of negatives because he was basically selling homemade "mix CDRs" and not advertising them as such. His feedback was also full of positives saying "great rare CD". So his business was doing all right from the many suckers out there. Shouldn't they shut these guys down first? Not to mention the guys selling 80GB hard drives STUFFED FULL of big-label MP3s. "Delete the ones you don't have CDs for" Yeah right!

So although it is within eBay's legal rights to arbitrarily do shit like this, it's a mind-numbingly stupid, ineffective, and purposeless policy. They just do it to satisfy the big labels. This guy should simply imply what it is, and not write CD-R anyplace in the auction. Or he could do like I did, put a bunch of auctions with subtle variations and learn which get pulled and which don't.

And oh, yeah don't put any "naughty words" in the auctions (I have no idea what the list of naughty words are, except "fuck" and "shit" are on it). They used to allow them in song titles, but now the drones move them to the "Adult" category with the hardcore porn.

And don't even bother writing customer support, they'll send you a syrupy "thanks for your business, but that's how it is" form letter.

use Oasis for duplication

[evenprime]

If you get 500 CDs from oasis, the price is $2.51 [oasiscd.com] per CD. They say that includes:

High-quality (175-line screen) four-color printing (4/1) printing

Direct on-disc printing

Injection-molded CDs manufactured to stringent quality specifications (These are NOT CDrs/CD-one offs)

Jewel boxes and shrink-wrap

Inclusion of a track from your CD on one of our OASIS SAMPLER CDs, with free distribution to the vast majority of radio stations in the US that specialize in your musical genre

National distribution directly through Amazon.com--the biggest retailer on the Web--as well as through cdstreet and the beloved indie store CD Baby

Free barcode if desired

Ten Retail-ready display boxes

Naturally, the prices go up if you want a nicer insert with more room for lyrics and band photos, and they go down if you buy more CDs. No. I'm not affiliated with Oasis. Our band may put out a disc of our own soon, so we've been looking into duplication options, and they are the company that we like the best so far. If you want to look at some other good options for indie bands, check out the list of duplicators recommended by CD Baby [cdbaby.net]. Some of them have even lower prices than Oasis. (but not as many free perks)

If you decided to use Oasis, you may want to talk to our rep, Alex (Alexandra) Vacek [mailto] - she's been real helpful with all our odd questions.

Re:Except they're not, if you had RTFA

[AKnightCowboy]

The rule is: no CDR's. He did break that rule.

Did YOU bother to read the rules on ebay? The page you linked has this big bold exceptions paragraph which exempts him because he is the copyright owner!


Exception
Sellers may list copies of software, music, movies, television programs, or games on CD-R, DVD-R (or other forms of recordable media) where:

the seller is the copyright owner; or
the underlying material is in the public domain

eBay's been using heavy-handed tactics for a while

[Quila]

Remember when Microsoft signed on as a buddy and had eBay cancel hundreds of legal Windows sales under the guise of stopping piracy? eBay even had all those hundreds of negative ratings of the Microsoft buddy account set to neutral. After the big flap over it, it disappeared. Used to be here [ebay.com].

Re:Vigilante Corporations

[IndependentVik]

You know, I really, really wish Lincoln had said this. The problem is, he didn't [snopes.com].