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Music Media Your Rights Online

CD Copy Protection Head Speaks 464

Vonatar sent us an interview with the guy who is running the company that designed the copy protection being used in CDs that nobody really buys, and preventing people from playing CDs in their computers and DVD players. The article also mentions the first lawsuit about the record label not providing notice on the package. Anyway check it out if you're interested. There are some interesting bits.
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CD Copy Protection Head Speaks

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  • by Red Aardvark House ( 523181 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @11:21AM (#2363733)
    What it's meant to do is provide a speed bump to people who don't steal things, and wish to use them in the parameters that are suggested by the artists

    But what about the average Joe who want's to rip the CD for use on the computer, or a portable MP3 player? These are fair-use protected, as long as you do not distribute.

    And most average Joes lack the technical know-how to circumvent the protection, and even that is illegal under the DMCA.

    Copy protection is stripping away the last bits of fair use left. They're punishing all users for the actions of some.

    Most people do not like to lose their rights, even something as small as fair use.
  • by JMan1865 ( 223387 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @11:22AM (#2363739) Homepage
    It makes no sense - they guy SAYS that it can be broken - but it is meant to deter "casual copying". A bit like wrapping a chain around a bike without really locking it - to deter the "casual bike thief". But they bring up the DMCA - so until that gets thrown out, they have a good legal loophole with which they can go after anyone who manages to rip their CD's.

    And their big explanation is that the song title and artist don't show up, so therefore people can't copy them? Hell, I was copying CD's long before programs had internet lookup of CD's - I would rip the track - then label it...what a novel concept...

  • Gee... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Drizzten ( 459420 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @11:23AM (#2363740) Homepage
    "The 53-year-old former on-air radio personality heads Phoenix-based SunnComm, one of dozens of digital rights management companies aiming to thwart would-be pirates from distributing copyrighted material over the Web."

    ...nice to forget about those of us who want to backup our CDs. I guess it doesn't bother this guy when his collection gets scratched over the years and slowly become unplayable.
  • no DVD (Score:2, Insightful)

    by spav ( 36318 ) <spavlosNO@SPAMcluemail.com> on Friday September 28, 2001 @11:23AM (#2363744) Homepage
    With DVD players becoming standard fare, how long do you think this practice will last? I only have a DVD player (in the computer and actual standalone unit) so that means that I'm screwed if I actually want to buy a CD anymore. Guess that means I'll have to turn on-line to find music, and we're right back where we started from. These record execs don't seem to understand emerging technology at all.
  • Artists' choice (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jedwards ( 135260 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @11:23AM (#2363750) Homepage Journal
    What it's meant to do is provide a speed bump to people who don't steal things, and wish to use them in the parameters that are suggested by the artists

    Hands up those who believe the artist gets a say in whether their CDs are rendered unusable or not?

    Their whole "we are designing the software for the 99 percent of the people who don't want to steal the music" argument is nonsense; it doesn't benefit them.
  • Huh? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by PinkStainlessTail ( 469560 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @11:26AM (#2363781) Homepage
    Q: Do you believe that copy-protection schemes violate fair-use rights?
    A:Ours is the only copy-protection scheme that doesn't violate fair-use rights...We allow (people) to make copies for their own personal use: for their computer, for their compilation disc and for their MP3 player, so they can have portable use of their music. The only fair use that's left--and it's not fair use at all--is the "fair use" of sending thousands of copies to file-sharing services to be copied hundreds of thousands or millions of times. That's the only use we've limited and so that's not fair use; it's certainly not fair to the artist.


    I'm confused: I can play this on a PC, I can rip it, I can make MP3s. How does the protection scheme actually stop copying? Did I miss something?
  • by Monthenor ( 42511 ) <monthenor@@@gogeek...org> on Friday September 28, 2001 @11:28AM (#2363792) Homepage
    ...that this guy has fallen into the same trap that most of the media has recently. They believe that the standard model of CD, hard-copy distribution is the ONLY model, and the model that artists want. He seems to take it as given that CDs are the divinely-ordained format for music, that the evolution of players has come to an end.

    I hope he goes bankrupt, but not necessarily because he's trying to protect music. It's because he's protecting CDs.

    I, of course, used a few p2p music sharers in my day, but you know what? I've filled out everything I want on my playlist, and aside from must-have stuff like the new Cake album, it doesn't change much anymore. On top of that, I bought more CDs after getting Napster than before...it's not a matter of already having the album for me, it's a matter of finding an ENTIRE ALBUM OF GOOD SONGS. If the record labels didn't rush out half-finished crap and charge almost $20 for it, I'd buy lots more CDs...
  • by daoine ( 123140 ) <`moc.oohay' `ta' `3101hdaurom'> on Friday September 28, 2001 @11:29AM (#2363797)
    The article specifically adresses the fair use clause, and how SunComm belives that they have addressed the issue of fair use by limiting the number of copies made.

    I think this is going to run them into the ground just as the Ebook. They just made the number higher -- by saying you can make six copies instead of two. Granted, it will take longer for people to screw up their machines to run out of their six copies, but the hard limit on the number of copies is always going to run into the same problem -- too low and the consumer is angry, too high and the consumer will give said copies away just to stick it to the industry.

    The greater issue -- it's likely that technology can not solve this problem reasonably. Furthermore, the DCMA is not enforcable -- they are going to use it in select cases to scare people into abiding by it. Perhaps, the recording industry should look to create a culture where *gasp* neither the performer nor the consumer feels like they are getting screwed over.

  • by sting3r ( 519844 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @11:33AM (#2363838) Homepage
    the company that designed the copy protection being used in CDs that nobody really buys

    Don't let this lull you into a false sense of complacency. It's just being beta tested right now (except for Universal Music). When not enough people complain anymore about not being able to play CDs on their computers (and they will give up soon), some sort of copy protection will show up on every CD ever manufactured.

    On the plus side, copy protection is always an arms race and the hackers have the upper hand. Remember when Copy II Plus came out for the Apple II and it could break every single media-based copyprotect scheme that existed at the time? There is still hope.

    -sting3r

  • Worthless? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by supabeast! ( 84658 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @11:33AM (#2363843)
    From the interview -

    "From our standpoint, we are designing the software for the 99 percent of the people who don't want to steal the music but instead (want to) use it for whatever means--for whatever personal use that's allowed by the artist and the record label. The software was designed for those people, not for the 1 percent who are going to take the lock cutters and cut the lock off and steal music in an unauthorized way."

    So this software is designed to reign in the people who do not "steal" the music anyway? Does that not make this method of "cooy protection" pointless? It seems to me that this guy just admitted his company is ripping off record companies by selling them copy protection schemes that are really no good.
  • Re:Artists' choice (Score:2, Insightful)

    by SlashDread ( 38969 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @11:37AM (#2363871)
    ""Their whole "we are designing the software for the 99 percent of the people who don't want to steal the music" argument is nonsense; it doesn't benefit them'.""

    Devils argument: By reducing theft, they can lower prices, leading to happier real customers.

    Gr /Dread
  • by grahamm ( 8844 ) <gmurray@webwayone.co.uk> on Friday September 28, 2001 @11:37AM (#2363875) Homepage
    If the track directory information is not readable, does this not also make the CD unplayable in a computer CD drive?
  • by Lxy ( 80823 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @11:41AM (#2363902) Journal
    A: The technology that we sell is a padlock to music. If you have a lock cutter, a bolt cutter, you can cut that padlock off. If you're determined to steal the music, the music can be stolen. Our technology is not thief proof.

    Umm... so let me get this straight. Those who want fair use (downloading it to their Rio, whatever) can't have it. Those are determined to pirate the music pull out their bit cutters and rip the CD. So basically, you've accomplished the exact opposite.. fair use is discouraged, but piracy is still possible. I think somebody missed the point.
  • by cyberdonny ( 46462 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @11:41AM (#2363907)
    However, exchanging the CD isn't going to help if you're just getting the same thing in return.

    It does help. Are you really thinking that the store is trying to sell the opened copy to somebody else? No way: either they are going to eat the losses, or they send it back to the manufacturer (...who eats the loss). Bottom line: you're costing the store real money, which will act as a disincentive not to store such CD's. Eventually some manager somewhere gets the message and this new format hopefully dies a well-deserved death.

  • by sg3000 ( 87992 ) <<sg_public> <at> <mac.com>> on Friday September 28, 2001 @11:41AM (#2363909)

    I love the quote from the article:

    The technology that we sell is a padlock to music. If you have a lock cutter, a bolt cutter, you can cut that padlock off. If you're determined to steal the music, the music can be stolen. Our technology is not thief proof.

    So this guy is selling a technology that won't stop thieves, but it will stop users from legitimately copying music from their CDs to their computer hard drives? It sounds like they're tacitly admitting that they're using the guise of "piracy protection" to do what they really want. That is to make music more like software -- eventually if you want to play it in your car and your home stereo, buy two copies of the CD!

    There are plenty of legitimate reasons to be able to load software onto your computer:
    * I have a FireWire hard drive that I use to store all my music, and it's available to all my computers (including across my AirPort wireless network)
    * Even within my house, having a hard drive with random access to my entire collection is better than some slow CD jukebox with a crappy UI
    * I've had CDs go bad that can't be read (older ones with a lot of paint on them) or have gotten scratched. A copy of the songs on a hard drive provide protection against that degradation
    * When I'm travelling, I don't want to bring audio CDs with me. It's easier just have songs on the hard drive

    Simply put, I will not buy any CDs that can't be read on my computer -- normally. Some silly copy protection scheme that calls up Microsoft to confirm my credit card receipt every time I want listen to a song doesn't count.

  • Speed bumps (Score:3, Insightful)

    by petros ( 47274 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @11:58AM (#2364066) Homepage
    I find the speed bump analogy in the interview interesting, because speed bumps are also devices that punish the legitimate users. Doesn't matter how slowly you drive over them, you're still being punished. Sure, they might discourage someone from driving like crazy, but the people that we going to are probably just going to drive really fast between bumps and slow down at the last minute.
  • by zaxus ( 105404 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @12:11PM (#2364173)
    True, but what Drizzten is trying to say is that, while speed limits and gun registration are public safety issues, they are only public safety issues due to the minority of people that do those things irresponsibly. That majority of people who do these things in a safe, sane, and logical manner are punished because of the few who want to speed, or shoot up peoples' property (or people, for that matter), or get drunk. Or do all three at the same time (ugh). The point is, the many are punished because of the few bad seeds.
  • by Jeremi ( 14640 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @12:12PM (#2364188) Homepage
    From the interview:


    Our technology is not thief proof. What it's meant to do is provide a speed bump to people who don't steal things


    So it won't stop the pirates, and will inconvenience the honest folks. Sounds like a real winner! :^P

  • by Occam's Nailfile ( 522986 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @12:27PM (#2364291)
    Let's assume (in some mythical different dimension) that illegally-distributed music isn't a problem for the industry.

    Why don't we take that as a point in fact? The deluge of digital music available on the internet has not been followed by the collapse of the record industry. We do not see top 40 artists hanging out on the street pushing shopping carts full of pop cans. What we're seeing is a previously invisible economy of traded and shared music. Fifteen years ago, I did this with cassette tapes. Now it's done with mp3's. But the phenomenon remains the same. "Hey, check this tape out." If I like the tape, I go and make a conscious decision to buy into what the artist is selling. If not, I don't.

    Now that the economy of music-sharing is no longer invisible, record companies want a cut of the game. They don't yet understand that without the game of music sharing, there is likely no game of music buying. I get introduced to most of my music, most of my die-hard, must-buy-all-imports-and-special-prints artists because someone gave me a tape or (these days) an Mp3 of the music. I would not have even known most of these artists existed, or were worth checking out, if I hadn't had the "pirated" copy of their one of their seminal recordings given to me.

    They can't cut open the goose that lays the golden eggs without killing her. Culture exists as a free exchange of ideas. Putting gates at every point of exchange with the idea of collecting tolls is simply a guarantee that people will find other roads to travel. I don't understand why a multibillion dollar industry can't get enough, but I don't have any sympathy for them. They will soon find out how lucky they are to get any. I will not buy copy-protected CD's. I will take them back to the store and I will take my money elsewhere.

  • by egburr ( 141740 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @12:38PM (#2364355) Homepage
    we are designing the software for the 99 percent of the people who don't want to steal the music but instead (want to) use it for whatever means--for whatever personal use that's allowed by the artist and the record label.

    So, they're designing it to annoy the 99% of people who want to legitimately purchase the music and make a legal fair-use backup copy or who want to copy it to their computer for use while storing the CD as the backup archive?

    Our technology is not thief proof. ... Only hackers will attempt to circumvent the technology in order to prove that it can be done. We're not designing the technology for them. ... not for the 1 percent who are going to take the lock cutters and cut the lock off and steal music in an unauthorized way.

    So, they admit that the people who will make an active effort to steal the music will hardly be hampered by this at all.

    What a sales pitch! We'll stop the people who don't steal, and we won't stop the people who do. Now, could someone explain just why anyone is paying them for this technology?

  • Re:Worthless? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Keith Russell ( 4440 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @01:12PM (#2364486) Journal
    So this software is designed to reign in the people who do not "steal" the music anyway?


    That's right! They are, in essence, criminalizing fair use. Here's the world that exists today:

    1. Consumer buys non-copy-controlled CD.

    2. Consumer rips said CD.

    3. Consumer uses CD and MP3s in legal, non-infringing ways.

    4. Pirate buys same CD.

    5. Pirate rips said CD.

    6. Pirate shares MP3s on %p2p_network%.

    Notice how Consumer and Pirate never have contact, nor do they need to. Now watch what happens when the CD becomes copy-controlled:

    1. Consumer buys copy-controlled CD.

    2. Consumer tries to rip said CD, and fails.

    3. Consumer gets mad.

    4. Pirate buys same CD.

    5. Pirate rips said CD using DMCA-banned circumvention device.

    6. Pirate shares MP3s on %p2p_network%.

    Now, the Consumer has some options:

    1. Capitulate to the CD's given digital media scheme, if any.

    2. Do without.

    3. Stop buying CDs.

    4. Logon to %p2p_network%, and download Pirate's MP3s.

    Two acts of defeat, one act of sacrificial defiance, or a Federal offense. Wow, this is a brilliant business plan. No wonder CDs cost so much. RIAA's members need those profits to pay guys like Peter Jacobs the Big Bux.
  • by Svartalf ( 2997 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @01:20PM (#2364533) Homepage
    If the disc is labeled with the compact disc logo, it's supposed to be compliant with the specification. If it is not compliant (and NONE of the copy protected stuff is...), it's either fraudulently labeled or the disc is defective.

    Run this one past them- do they willingly sell defective products? If they don't make the above point to them and see how fast they give your money back to you. They NEVER want the impression of knowingly selling fraudulent or defective products to the consumers. Bad for business and could bring on lawsuits like the one against these people on them.
  • by Arkaein ( 264614 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @01:30PM (#2364572) Homepage
    This guy goes on about how only 1% of the people out there are hard core music pirates that will have the diligence and know-how to defeat the protection schemes, but what happens when these skilled CD ripping individuals put the ripped tracks on Morpheus/Gnutella/(insert favorite P2P file sharing app here)? Then the 40% of us who are the casual pirates have the music just like before.

    Most of us never rip our own tracks. We get them over the net and share them over the net. It only takes one person to rip a song to get the song beyond the copy-protected barrier for everyone.
  • 99 Percent? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by peter_gzowski ( 465076 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @01:56PM (#2364750) Homepage
    From our standpoint, we are designing the software for the 99 percent of the people who don't want to steal the music but instead (want to) use it for whatever means--for whatever personal use that's allowed by the artist and the record label.

    99% of the general populion don't want to make mp3s of their cds?

    From CNET [cnet.com]'s stats, it seems like about 13 million people have downloaded Kazaa, and about another 20 million have downloaded Morpheus (not to mention various other file sharing programs talked about on /. here [slashdot.org]). Therefore I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that at least 10 million individuals out there are trading mp3s with software that your average Joe can use. In the year 2000, 2.5 billion CDs were sold (according to this link [ifpi.org]). Assuming that average Joe buys, say, a couple CDs a month (reasonabe?), this comes out to about 100 million average Joes buying cds each year. Using my super-human mathmatical capabilities, I figure about 10% of the general cd-purchasing population wish to make mp3s with their cds. He's an order of magnitude off! In physics or chemistry this is fine, but for the CEO of a business, isn't it a bit much?
  • by pjrc ( 134994 ) <paul@pjrc.com> on Friday September 28, 2001 @02:05PM (#2364830) Homepage Journal
    Let's assume (in some mythical different dimension) that illegally-distributed music isn't a problem for the industry

    Right here, in this very real dimention, illegally distributed music isn't a problem for the music industry.

    At least that's what their bottom line says... they're making more money than ever. CD prices have remained high, despite the recently anti-trust investigations. Their one bogus study during the Napster hearings showed that sales were down, but only near colleges where internet-based ordering was significantly up. Other more indepentent studies, at least so far, have generally found that CD sales are increasing.

    Perhaps the "problem" is fear that future sales might be impacted, or some other non-profit definition of problem (like pride, control over the market, having new musicians by-the-balls, etc)

    Perhaps the "problem" is all those "lost sales" from people who heard the music without paying, but the truth is that this is nothing new... they had this "problem" when radio began, they had this "problem" when recordable cassette tapes appeared, etc.

  • by Anemophilous Coward ( 312040 ) on Friday September 28, 2001 @02:54PM (#2365212)
    "From our standpoint, we are designing the software for the 99 percent of the people who don't want to steal the music... not for the 1 percent who are going to take the lock cutters and cut the lock off and steal music in an unauthorized way."

    Um...right. What were the numbers on Napster at one point, were they not in upwards of 10's of millions? Granted the 1% using the so-called 'lock-cutters' seems a fairly correct figure; there are really only a small number (overall) who make the circumvention tools. But I gather the other figure would be much lower. Despite hearing people say "uh, I did not realize I was 'stealing' music.", I venture that most people have been, are and always will be cognizant of the supposed illegal nature of their music file trading. A lot want to 'stick it to the man'; a lot just want a free lunch.

    - AC

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