'Havana Syndrome' Unlikely Caused By Hostile Foreign Power, CIA Says (theguardian.com) 64
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Guardian: An initial CIA investigation into the mysterious set of symptoms known as Havana syndrome has found that it is unlikely to be the result of a worldwide campaign of attacks by a foreign power against US diplomats and spies. However, two dozen cases, including some of those originally afflicted in Havana in 2016, could not be explained and would be further studied for evidence of a possible attack, according to a senior CIA official who briefed the US press.
"While we have reached some significant interim findings, we are not done," the CIA director, Williams Burns, said in a statement. "We will continue the mission to investigate these incidents and provide access to world-class care for those who need it." Since the original outbreak of the symptoms, which include hearing strange sounds, dizziness, loss of balance, nausea and memory loss, more than 1,000 cases have been studied around the world. The interim findings of a CIA investigation have found that the majority of cases could probably be attributed to a pre-existing medical condition, or environmental factors, or stress, the senior official said. The defense department and an independent panel of experts are conducting their own investigations which have yet to publish reports. A Havana syndrome victims support group said in a statement: "The decision to release the report now and with this particular set of 'findings' seems a breach of faith, and an undermining of the intent of Congress and the president to stand with us and reach a government-wide consensus as to what is behind this," a Havana syndrome victims group said in a statement.
"This report was neither cleared nor coordinated through the interagency and must stand as the assessment of one agency [CIA] alone."
"While we have reached some significant interim findings, we are not done," the CIA director, Williams Burns, said in a statement. "We will continue the mission to investigate these incidents and provide access to world-class care for those who need it." Since the original outbreak of the symptoms, which include hearing strange sounds, dizziness, loss of balance, nausea and memory loss, more than 1,000 cases have been studied around the world. The interim findings of a CIA investigation have found that the majority of cases could probably be attributed to a pre-existing medical condition, or environmental factors, or stress, the senior official said. The defense department and an independent panel of experts are conducting their own investigations which have yet to publish reports. A Havana syndrome victims support group said in a statement: "The decision to release the report now and with this particular set of 'findings' seems a breach of faith, and an undermining of the intent of Congress and the president to stand with us and reach a government-wide consensus as to what is behind this," a Havana syndrome victims group said in a statement.
"This report was neither cleared nor coordinated through the interagency and must stand as the assessment of one agency [CIA] alone."
Re:Caused by anti-bugging devices (Score:5, Interesting)
44K staff stationed abroad. A couple of M each in compensation for work environment that can give you anything from being a vegetable to brain cancer. That is enough to bankrupt even bottomless pockets of Uncle Sam.
Re:Caused by anti-bugging devices (Score:5, Insightful)
44K staff stationed abroad. A couple of M each in compensation for work environment that can give you anything from being a vegetable to brain cancer. That is enough to bankrupt even bottomless pockets of Uncle Sam.
Let's do basic math!
44,000 x 2,000,000 = 88,000,000,000
That's about what the military spends every 6 weeks.
Stay in school kids.
Re: (Score:2)
it's unlikely they were all affected though?
Re: (Score:2)
It doesn't matter. If all 44,000 people were affected and given the whole 2 million in suggested compensation, it wouldn't bankrupt the country. Not even close. Hell, if we took the whole amount out of the defense budget, they'd barely notice.
Re: Caused by anti-bugging devices (Score:1)
Re: Covid-19 unlikely leaked from a lab (Score:2)
Well, no. That's just your fantasy talking.
Between the lines (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: Between the lines (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
My first thought as well. Either that or it is an enemy, but we are doing the same thing and don't want to call attention to it.
Or the CIA are actually telling the truth. They did say that 20-30 of the incidents need further investigation. So they admit something else is going on. But people will definitely pile onto a phenomenon like this and claim to be affected. Or they might just be hypochondriacs who got a little headache, and assumed they were important enough for some foreign power to target.
So, it c
Re:Between the lines (Score:5, Insightful)
Your missing the possibility that it isn't actually an attack. That theres something thats doing this that isn't actually initiated by humans, at least intentionally.
The foreign attack thing never made a lot of sense. What was the motive here. Attacking diplomats has never been a strategically sane action. It aggravates the target country, without gaining any strategic ground over them.
Like, OK yes Cuba isnt exactly a fan of the united states. But what would they gain out of it? Precisely nothing. But what could be lost? Well, the walking back of a lot of progress towards normalizing the relationship , something that would have a huge impact strategically for them.
Nothing about the directed-energy-attack theory makes sense.
There is a possibility that its some sort of espionage thing, like a passive surveilance device that requires energy to be beamed in to power it (Like the passive device in the wooden eagle crest found in the US embassy in Russia, many moons ago). But unless theres actual evidence its all just pointless speculation.
The truth is, we have no motive, no body, and no smoking gun. Its more likely, there was no attack at all.
Re: (Score:2)
The Truth Hurts? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
It didn't reach the conclusion they desired. Nobody likes to be told their super mysterious illness is a combination of working too hard and an overactive imagination.
Re: The Truth Hurts? (Score:2)
Which wasn't the conclusion reached.
Re: (Score:2)
It was.
A minority of cases remain unexplained. So the majority gets to be pissed off, with the small saving grace that they can each assume they're actually in the mysterious minority.
Re: (Score:2)
So you take an assumption, an assumption about that assumption and conclude a certainty. My suggestion is to start with basic statistics, then learn some Bayes.
Re: (Score:2)
WTF are you talking about?
Maybe you're suffering from Havana syndrome?
Re: The Truth Hurts? (Score:1)
You can be damned sure that"working too hard" is not on the list of possible causes.
Re: (Score:2)
Of course not. They used the HR appropriate term "stress."
Re: (Score:3)
Is it related to money? If they were injured in service there could be financial support that is not available for pre existing conditions or stress.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Sometimes I feel that a lot of US foreign policy is orientated around “find the excuse for us to be belligerent” rather than “solve the problem and remove conflict”.
For example, the US is more interested in conflict with Russia and the EU over Nordstream2 because Russia can use it to cut off Ukraine from both a funding source, a fuel source and a source of leverage over Russia. The US could easily step in and replace the first two for Ukraine, and forget the last one, and leave Russ
Re: (Score:1)
Northstream2 has nothing to do with Ukrainia, as it goes through the baltic sea.
and tell both Russia and the EU what they can and cannot do with Nordstream2.
That is the problem with USA. Even bullying "their allies" as if bullying the rest of the world is not enough for them.
Re:The Truth Hurts? (Score:5, Informative)
Nordstream2 adds capacity directly between Russian and Germany that makes the gas pipeline that Russia currently uses through Ukraine essentially redundant - if Russia shuts down that pipeline, Ukraine loses income from transit fees, and loses a source of natural gas. On top of that, Ukraine would also lose the political leverage it has in threatening to embargo that pipeline.
That is why Nordstream2 is so important, and that is why its politics is intimately linked to Ukraine.
And thats why its so important to the US.
Re: (Score:2)
Ukraine is only cut from Gas if Russia cuts them.
And that obviously has nothing to do with NorthStream2.
The gas which goes through pipelines is accounted for: a transit land can not simply take it wants.
And thats why its so important to the US.
That is simply plain wrong.
a) the US want to bully the EU around
b) the US want to expand their liquified natural gas tanker business
That: is the reason the USA tried to make pressure.
On top of that, Ukraine would also lose the political leverage it has in threatening
Re: (Score:2)
Ukraine is only cut from Gas if Russia cuts them.
And that obviously has nothing to do with NorthStream2.
It has everything to do with NordStream2, because thats what allows Russia to cut off Ukraines natural gas supply.
Right now, the pipeline which flows through Ukraine does two things - allows Russia to sell natural gas to the EU, and supplies Ukraine. Russia cannot stop supplying Ukraine, because Ukraine can take what it wants from the pipeline anyway (this has been a long standing accusation and one of the points of tension between Russia and Ukraine - stolen natural gas).
The gas which goes through pipelines is accounted for: a transit land can not simply take it wants.
Agreed, a country that a pipeline
Re: (Score:2)
Agreed on point 1, but if point 2 stands then why doesn't the US offer to step in and replace the entire capacity of NordStream1, NordStream2 and all gas transiting through Ukraine at the same cost? That would completely and utterly eliminate Russias political leverage over both the EU and Ukraine?
They did offer that.
But what is the point to exchange one bully for another one.
Besides Europe has not the port capacity.
Did I make it simple enough for you to understand?
Yes?
No?
There is nothing to understand. The
Re: (Score:2)
Ok, it seems that I have to treat you as stupid. Because it seems you are.
Russia wants Nordstream2.
The EU wants Nordstream2.
They both want Nordstream2 because it increases capacity and reliability of Russian gas from Russia to the EU.
Ukraine does not want Nordstream2 because it means they lose a secured domestic supply (with Nordstream2 in place, Russia can say to Ukraine "do as we say or we cut off your supply - we can now do that without threatening our supply to the EU") and a source of political levera
Re: (Score:2)
Sorry,
You are tlaking about things that have nothing to do with the situation.
What Ukraine wants is irrelevant.
Northstream2, is the sister pipeline to Northstream1. Invisioned 30 years ago.
If you dont understand that, then you are fucking dumb.
Yeah, and you are dumb to reverse cause and reason and effect.
We have Northstream2 to for one simple reason:
a) be independent from stupid quarrels in the eas
b) make money
Oh ... that was two reasons.
The US does not want Nordstream2 because it hurts Ukraine, both becaus
It's rarely mentioned... (Score:5, Informative)
...but Canadian Embassy staff in Cuba were also affected by this mysterious malady. I suppose it's possible they were mistaken for Americans, except that the two embassies aren't close to each other.
Re: (Score:3)
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/... [www.cbc.ca]
Re: (Score:2)
Why only poke one when you have the chance to attack two out of Five Eyes?
Re: (Score:3)
they've probably use the same electronic (or other type) counter measures as the americans which is likely the cause.
I bet you that they now know exactly what was causing it and are covering their collective asses because they won't ever admit a screw up like this in public.
Re: (Score:2)
ahh, OK. now we get it. Many ways to parse it... (Score:1)
Could be a local campaign, not world wide.
Or it might not be foreign power, just some rogue NSA / CIA types, field testing some things. "The skunk works told us it will help us read the minds, never knew it will do this shit"
Or it is against lots of people not specifically against US diplomats.
Re: (Score:2)
Or it might not be foreign power, just some rogue NSA / CIA types, field testing some things.
How about they aren't rogue at all? How about these people were targeted by the US government itself, for doing things the government didn't want them doing? Like looking into things they wanted buried? This government is just built out of conspiracies on top of other conspiracies.
Okay, now consider the source . . . (Score:2)
Re: Okay, now consider the source . . . (Score:2)
Statistical clustering tells you that the cases are related, nit that there's an attack.
Faulty electronic countermeasures, a CIA effort to spy on others that went horribly wrong, pollutants in the embassy building, these would also cause the same clusters.
radio interference? (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Did that paper also mention the eight Canadians who were also affected? The Canadian Embassy is a considerable distance from the U.S. one, and Canada is quite friendly with Cuba. Indeed, Cuba complained when Canada reduced embassy staff after the complaints of illness.
Re: (Score:2)
One of the findings here is that 99.9% of the reports were misattributed to Havana Syndrome.
Re: (Score:2)
Err, miscalculated, 99.0% rather.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Any kid knows what this is (Score:2)
It's called pretending to be sick to not go to school.
Uhh, no. (Score:2)
First, not every kid fakes illnesses.
Second, neurological tests show damage. Hard to fake those.
Re: (Score:2)
Re-read my sentence: I didn't say every kid fakes illness to avoid school, I said all kids know it's a thing - and I would bet all of them have thought about it at one point or another.
As to how that relates to the Havana syndrome, I bet there's a good chance the first diplomat to report the strange syndrome faked it (perhaps not out of laziness, but because he was tired of doing his job under difficult circumstances and didn't dare report it, or something like that), he was taken seriously beyond all expec
Axiom of Evil (Score:3)
There's a saying to the effect of "never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity", and perhaps that applies here. It seems likely there's some kind of link between incidents and it's surely not "mass psychosis". The link could just be something as simple as a bureaucratic requirement for a certain product to be used by/for US personnel; maybe a particular pesticide, or maybe some cheap office supply-type product. Or maybe it really is the Russians attempting to spy and there's a glitch with their devices. Making the people you are spying on sick and thus drawing attention isn't really the goal after all.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
It seems likely there's some kind of link between incidents and it's surely not "mass psychosis".
Why "surely not"?
Psychosomatic symptoms are common. For example, most symptoms [umn.edu] of covid vaccine side effects appear to be psychosomatic.
Re: (Score:2)
Those studies usually make no real sense.
a) Side effects are usually the expected effect If you have no side effect from a vaccine, it most likely did not work
b) Local AEs (eg, pain at the injection site) were reported by 16.2% of placebo recipients and 66.7% of vaccine recipients after the first dose and 11.8% and 72.8%, respectively, after two doses.
Makes no sense at all. You got an injection of a quite huge amount of liquid into a muscle or under the skin 8depending on vaccine): obviously that hursts fo
Re: (Score:2)
Not to be difficult, but while I originally attributed this concept to mass hysteria (mass psychosis in your words), it's too nonspecific for that.
I would suggest it is more likely a cleaning product that is recommended for use by US foreign service posts.
Maslow's hammer (Score:2)
"I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail."
I suppose the CIA were tempted to treat these illnesses as if they were attacks.
Psychogenic ... (Score:3)
Here is one expert who says that it is Mass Psychogenic Illness [youtube.com].
My theory (Score:1)
It's possible the first few cases were caused by microwave radiation or similar from some kind of spying or disruption technique, and while investigating, they collected "too many" other candidate victims who just may have simply not had enough sleep or ate a bad sandwich.
Targeted EM waves have various espionage and/or sabotage uses.
Roll out inflammatory accusation... (Score:1)
... then explain it.
new news cycle.
Repeat inflammatory accusation... ...then explain it.
Do they really think people don't remember the propaganda from the first time around?
Could it be (when did it start?) (Score:2)
Could it be that this are "late COVID" syndromes?