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The Courts Transportation United States

Justice Department Sues Uber Over Charging Wait-Time Fees for Disabled People (wsj.com) 84

Posted by msmash from the closer-look dept.
The Justice Department said Wednesday that it was suing Uber for charging wait-time fees to passengers with physical disabilities. From a report: The suit, filed in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California, alleges that the company violated the Americans with Disabilities Act for charging fees to passengers who, because of disability, need more time to enter a car.
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Justice Department Sues Uber Over Charging Wait-Time Fees for Disabled People More

Justice Department Sues Uber Over Charging Wait-Time Fees for Disabled People

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  • Fuck your WSJ paywall. (Score:5, Informative)

    by Pierre Pants ( 6554598 ) on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:25PM (#61976017)
    https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr... [justice.gov]

    • Much better article, thanks.

    • Do you like to work for free ?

      • The choice isn't necessarily between "working for free" and a separate paywall for each website, where website operators feel entitled to charge the full monthly subscription rate to a user who read one article on that site during the month. Back in the late 1990s, there was a multi-site paywall called Adult Check, which paid participating publishers a royalty for each page view by a subscriber.

        • You're saying there's an alternative that has succeeded for long ?

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by tepples ( 727027 )

            Adult Check succeeded long ago. It got shut down in part because too many participating publishers were displaying photos from a specific photography magazine without a license.

  • Equal access? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by FeelGood314 ( 2516288 ) on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @03:44PM (#61976089)
    I'm all for mandating ramps, automatic doors and other things for disabled people. But from the complaint "People with disabilities deserve equal access to all areas of community life, including the private transportation services provided by companies like Uber,” said Assistant Attorney General Kristen Clarke. That's not equal access when you are asking for special treatment. You can easily look at your app and see the estimated arrival time of your Uber ride. I think most people can estimate how long it takes to get out to the Uber car to within 2 minutes.

    This is a case of a hidden subsidy. The cost of the taking care of someone with a disability is spread among all the other users. Which most of the time I'm fine with but we need to admit when we do it and test that the subsidy is reasonable. Maybe this one is reasonable but there are definitely others that are not. In Canada we are not updating flood plain maps so people can get flood insurance and allowing people to test for genetic conditions and then get insurance for those conditions without telling the insurer.

    • This is a case of a hidden subsidy. The cost of the taking care of someone with a disability is spread among all the other users.

      Preferably in such a way that a capuchin monkey has to do your commenting for you. Which should subsidize your apparent intelligence too.

      • As I was saying before some asshole tried to censor criticism of assholes like FeelGood314 [slashdot.org] who pushes Natzi propaganda [wikipedia.org] here...

        This is a case of a hidden subsidy. The cost of the taking care of someone with a disability is spread among all the other users.

        Here's to you being subsidized like that.
        Preferably in such a way that a capuchin monkey has to do your commenting for you. Which should subsidize your apparent intelligence too.

    • Re:Equal access? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @04:05PM (#61976177) Homepage Journal

      If a tiny "subsidy" helps make the world a bit less shitty for disabled people then I'm okay with that.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by NFN_NLN ( 633283 )

        It's a little disingenuous to take a stance when it directly benefits you.

        • It's a little disingenuous to take a stance when it directly benefits you.

          I take the stance too, and I'm 100% able bodied.

          • Yup. Me three. Same deal.

            • Re: (Score:1)

              by ekeko ( 570487 )

              Me four. If you think they are getting "special treatment", then my question is, would you trade places with them, since they are getting this "special" treatment?

          • Exactly. Even if it wasn't obviously the right thing to do, there's also the fact that you're 100% able bodied at the moment. That could change at any time.

            It could even change temporarily -- for example, breaking your arm or leg isn't much different from having it amputated, except for being temporary, yet you'd still benefit from accommodations intended for wheelchair users like lifts or powered doors. (I imagine a broken leg would also make it harder to get into, say, an Uber...)

            • I figure the vocal anarcho-capitalists might claim that it ought to be the job of private insurers such as Aflac to reimburse individual policyholders for expenses associated with being temporarily or permanently disabled.

        • It's a little disingenuous to take a stance when it directly benefits you.

          And what if it benefits you someday?

          You might be in perfect health today but what about Tomorrow, or next year, or 40-50 years down the way when you end up on SSI and are waiting for a hip replacement because you can barely even walk to the toilet from your bed let alone get to the curb?

          Setting the precedent now that the ADA applies will prevent a harder fight later when you or someone you care about might really need it.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          For the record this would not benefit me directly, or anyone I'm close to.

      • There already are plenty tiny subsidies which make the world less shitty for disabled people.
        Do we need more? For sure.
        Does the situation presented above qualify in that area? Likely not.

      • You might want to read the article. It's not a subsidy.

        The Department of Justice sued Uber on Wednesday, alleging the company charged wait-time fees to customers with physical disabilities. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/1... [cnbc.com]

      • Yeah. It's easy to be ok with spending someone else's money.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by qe2e! ( 1141401 )
        So it's okay to legislate that world be a bit more shitty to the Uber drivers, because they had it too good for too long?
        And enforcement wise, how do you pick who gets charged for diddling and who doesn't? Does A.D.D. or video game addiction count?
        The true cost of the service begins as soon as the driver is on their way to you, but that's already 'subsidized' because the driver just does it for free, that's just the hivemind status quo. There's already an an unfair arbitrary line around when the driver

    • uber is an taxi and they must follow the taxi laws

      • Interesting, and I don't know 'taxi laws' as I am not a taxi or a lawyer.
        I have used uber and taxies, but that is a pretty narrow view of their world.
        I have noticed that at least some taxis in various cities start the meter running during loading and it continues to run until you're at destination and paying.
        Is this illegal in the US (that's what I think you implied) or is it dependent on some legal whim in some cities?
        I honestly have no idea.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by jbengt ( 874751 )
          I have taken many taxis, a few Ubers, and a couple of limousines in my years. I've never had to pay for any time before I got into the ride, and the limos were fixed fees anyway. Taxis don't usually start the meter until after I tell them where I'm going.
          I thought Ubers were supposed to be give you a set price at the time of order. I'll be willing to pay Uber for wait time when they pay me for waiting for drivers that get lost and come late or just never show up.

          • Great idea, I wish there was a way to compensate customers for long taxi wait times.
            The very last time I tried to get taxi service was in Shoreline (North border of Seattle.)
            I called a week ahead, 2 days ahead, then 2 hours ahead and the local LARGE taxi company might as well have been the cable company "We should have someone there in 4 to 6 hours."
            With scheduling like that they will never be late....
            By then I had learned it was cheaper to rent a limo to get between home and the Sea-Tac airport.
            The limo sh

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Ksevio ( 865461 )

      How is this different than requiring a restaurant to have a ramp to get in? These sorts of things are already quite common, but here it's just a short delay, not even a substantial burden on the drivers/Uber.

      • How is this different than requiring a restaurant to have a ramp to get in?

        One situation is mandated by law.
        Not sure if the other is.

        • Re:Equal access? (Score:4, Informative)

          by MachineShedFred ( 621896 ) on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @04:47PM (#61976333) Journal

          The Department of Justice says they are both mandated by law. You do not get to discriminate based upon physical disability.

          Uber can fix this in about 5 minutes by giving drivers a button to push to waive wait time fees due to disability, and / or having a flag on a user account where they can qualify as someone with a disability which extends the amount of grace period before the wait time fee is applied, say 10 minutes instead of two, combined with a notice to the driver explaining to them what's up.

          This seems like Uber continuing to be a fucking asshole organization that doesn't give two shits about anything but their service fees.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Hodr ( 219920 )

        Not the same, this would be like allowing disabled people to show up late to their reservations without losing their table.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Ksevio ( 865461 )

          Or in this case, it would be like allowing disabled people to show up to their reservation and not lose their table if they took too long getting from the door of the restaurant to the table

      • I can walk up a ramp as an able bodied human. Should I be allowed to make an Uber driver wait an infinite amount of time "because of disabled people" as well? Does this come out of some public fund?

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Ksevio ( 865461 )

          Yes, if it's causing too much financial burden for Uber, they should raise their prices on everyone until they can accommodate all their customers

    • Re:Equal access? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by bws111 ( 1216812 ) on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @04:37PM (#61976299)

      So you 'read the complaint' but completely failed to see it has nothing to do with estimated time of arrival? It specifically says things like 'time to break down a wheelchair and stored in the car'. What do you propose the wheelchair user does? Go out early, break down the chair, and lie on the ground until the car gets there? And I am not sure how a blind person is supposed to 'easily look at the app' to know the exact spot the car will be (and when) so it doesn't take him any time to locate and get to the car.

    • Equal access is everyone having to pay if they make the car wait.

      Allowing some people not to pay is special treatment.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Equal access means everyone has the same opportunity to access the service regardless of their disability.

        You are thinking of equal cost.

        Equal access is a well established right. For example, airlines usually can't charge extra for carrying a wheelchair or other medical device that someone needs.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by anegg ( 1390659 )

      I used to drive a bus for a regional transit authority. All of the buses had wheel chair lifts so that people in wheelchairs could be transported on the bus. However, loading someone in a wheelchair took several minutes, unloading someone in a wheelchair took several minutes. As an occasional thing, this wouldn't disrupt the schedule too badly. If it was during heavy travel times, with 40 people waiting on the bus while the lift was being operated, there would be (at a minimum) some amount of uncomforta

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

        During the two years I drove a bus for this transit authority, I never once operated the wheelchair lift. Why? Because the transit authority operated a handicap van service that picked people up at their door and delivered them to their destination door on a pre-arranged ride basis. The disabled riders seemed to prefer this kind of service for both its convenience as well the fact that it kept them from being viewed as holding everyone up. Unfortunately, all of the transit buses had to be equipped with whee

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by msauve ( 701917 )
      They always want equal treatment, except when the inequality is in their favor.

  • It's not simple (Score:2, Interesting)

    by ironicsky ( 569792 )

    This isn't a simple problem.

    Each Uber driver is an independent contractor. They get paid for their mileage and time. Time spent waiting is time not billable, so as an operator, I wouldn't want to be compensated for waiting on disabled folks, even if it is the right thing to do.

    Which means, Uber needs to top up payment for drivers who have to wait for disabled people, but aren't earning additional income to cover this, so they would likely pass on the charges.

    Uber charges all customers a waiting fee, whether

    • It is simple.

      Rate the cost over all users, and not penalize the disabled only. Sorry, but even as a contractor, it is illegal to penalize the disabled.

    • Start kneecapping CEOs and watch those Uber-munchkins start demanding for more improvements for the disabled. Also, for more painkillers.

      It won't stop them being cunts or allow them to walk outside in the daylight and feed on anything else other than human blood and misery...
      But it's a start.

    • Because disabled people are also frequently victimized by criminals, they are likely to wait until they see the car outside before beginning their movement to their ride. So even advance notice is unlikely to help.

      • I'm not saying they should go outside an hour early and wait, but Uber gives pretty good windows. Usually 10 minutes.

        If you want a ride for 15:30, they will likely say between 15:20 and 15:30, so, you as the rider should be ready before 15:20, so that if the car arrives at 15:20 you can jump in and go.

        If you know the car is going to arrive in 10 minutes, based on the map and the app, and you know you need 5 minutes to get to the pick up location then you leave at 15:15.

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by bws111 ( 1216812 )

          Did you bother to read the complaint? It doesn't mention anything about the disabled people waiting to get ready. It says things like 'the time it takes to break down a wheelchair and store it in the car'. How do you propose the wheelchair user gets ready for that? Should he break down his chair himself then just lie on the ground waiting for the ride? And how is a blind person supposed to base something on 'the map and the app'? No matter how early he is out there, it is going to take some time for h

        • Great.

          How is a blind person supposed to find the car when the Uber driver pulls up half a block away?
          How is a person in a wheelchair expected to pre-fold the chair he's sitting in and get it into the car without taking extra time?
          How is a person in a wheelchair that knows it's going to take 8 minutes to get to the curb supposed to do that when the driver that accepted the ride is only 3 minutes away? Just roll faster down the ramps that take them way the hell out of the way?

          By the way, this is a problem th

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by amchugh ( 116330 )

      This isn't all people taking too much time to come downstairs from an office or apartment. Some of it is time to load a wheelchair in a car while they are at the curb already when the car pulls up, or the car stopping a quarter block away and making a blind person come find the driver. To the extent that Uber fails to require contractors to be adequately trained, or fails to specify vehicles need to be able to accommodate wheelchairs either without collapsing them or by granting additional time, Uber is abs

      • That part I agree with. If that is what Uber drivers are doing, then it is a problem. And, absolutely, being able to tag a ride request as needing an accessible vehicle is important, especially for wheel chairs that can't be collapsed.

        I know taxi companies, at least where I am from, you need to call and specify the type of vehicle you need, otherwise you get whatever you get. Similar to Uber. But, Uber being a tech company can absolutely find a better way

        • That's what the fucking article says jackass. Read the article BEFORE posting. You will look less like an ass-hole.

          • I would, but the article is paywalled, so i am basing my response on what is available in the article preview. Probably not the best idea on my part, but I'm not paying to read articles on ad supported sites.

    • Re:It's not simple (Score:5, Informative)

      by JKanoock ( 6228864 ) on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @04:33PM (#61976283)
      Everyone has to abide by these laws, do you think businesses enjoy spending thousands extra for accommodations, not so much but it is necessary. Now Uber starts a business model that does not take this into account, even tho these laws have been in place for a very long time, who do you think is at fault? That's right the shitty company.
    • Somebody needs to read the fucking article.

      "The lawsuit, filed in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California, alleges the Uber violated Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act, which prohibits discrimination by private transportation companies. In Uber’s case, that means charging customers with physical disabilities a fee if they needed more time to get into the vehicle."

      “Wait time fees are charged to all riders to compensate drivers after two minutes of waiti

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by jbengt ( 874751 )

        We recognize that many riders with disabilities depend on Uber for their transportation needs, which is why we had been in active discussions with the DOJ about how to address any concerns or confusion before this surprising and disappointing lawsuit.”

        Translation: "We've stalled doing anything about this for as long as possible, and now we're going to complain that they aren't just discussing it anymore."

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by sjames ( 1099 )

      You've never been disabled (even temporarily) or helped a disabled person into a car, have you?

      Apparently you haven't even spared 10 seconds to imagine why it might take longer to get in to a car if you're disabled even if it's right there next to you.

    • You can already schedule a time in advance to the exact time you will be there. This is already a feature.
  • Instead of increasing the price for people who take extra long, increase it for everybody. BRILLIANT!

  • Because certain people need to get stuff for free that other people need to pay for.

  • Today, the penalty-clock starts 2 minutes after the car arrives at the pickup point and stops when the car starts moving. The problem is not that the vehicle is standing still, so stop measuring that. The problem needing a solution is people being late.

    Much more equitable would be for Uber to lock-in the scheduled pick up time and location 10+ minutes in advance. Any party (driver or passenger) late to the pickup point pays a penalty to the other party.

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