Vaping Criminal Probe Announced By FDA As Illnesses Rise To 530 (cnet.com) 100
The FDA has revealed a criminal investigation into the outbreak of vaping-related lung illnesses, which have risen to 530 across 38 states, according to the CDC. The Washington Post says there have been seven confirmed deaths from these illnesses so far. CNET reports: The FDA reportedly said it isn't seeking prosecution for ill people who've vaped cannabis and come forward with information. "The focus is on the supply chain," Mitch Zeller, director of the FDA's Center for Tobacco Products, told the Post. "We're very alarmed about products containing THC." Suspicion has recently turned to chemical dilutants, or "cutting agents," found in some black market THC vaping oils. The FDA has collected more than 150 samples from patients across the country and is now analyzing them for the presence of cutting agents and other substances. According to the CDC, more than half the patients are under 25, with two-thirds between 18 and 34, and 16% under 18.
Did someone post a DIY recipe somewhere? (Score:5, Interesting)
People have been vaping for years, then this. Did someone post a cheap DIY vaping juice recipe online somewhere recently?
Re: Did someone post a DIY recipe somewhere? (Score:5, Informative)
Re: Did someone post a DIY recipe somewhere? (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is coming from black market vaping products.
So of course the governmental and political response is to restrict/limit/tax the legal vaping products, thus driving more sales to the black market instead, which will result in more deaths.
But don't worry, it's for the children, I'm sure....
Not vaping, but illegal drugs. Spoons != Heroin (Score:5, Insightful)
These headlines and stories blaming "vaping" for problems people have after using illegal drugs, THC (marijuana) produced in some drug dealer's bathroom really irk me.
It's like having headlines about spoons killing people, and buried in the article you find out it's heroin.
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Well the thing is to make safer forms of vaping whose formulation has been fully vetted more readily available. Safe vaping would become prety much at every gas station, every corner market, and so on. So if it's easier and legal to just go there, then there's less incentive to go to a black market and purchase legally questionable products, especially if having to hunt down the reseller and then meet undercover is more inconvenient than just walking to the corner store.
There's always going to be people w
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I have yet to see anyone who gets media coverage, especially a medical or public health professional, suggest something along the lines of "vaping is inherently safer than inhaling combusted plant matter, we should figure out how to make vaping as safe as possible through research and then regulate that only the safest technologies be made available."
Literally everyone has been getting on the ban bandwagon, pushing the "unknown chemicals" concept, if they weren't already in full "nicotine addiction" and "th
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I have yet to see anyone who gets media coverage
Well there's the first problem.
Literally everyone has been getting on the ban bandwagon, pushing the "unknown chemicals" concept, if they weren't already in full "nicotine addiction" and "think of the children!" mode
That's standard protocol, you shouldn't be too terrified of it. Usually cooler heads prevail, but you know what, with the way things go with social media carze, you may just be justified in that aspect. But typically, cooler head prevail. There's money to be made in this, so those folks aren't going down without a fight.
My best guess is that this is just some kind of American puritanism at work on the base level.
Same, that's my thinking as well.
do think that sane vaping research and pushing regulatory agendas backed by this research is an excellent idea -- the profit motive and low-grade chemistry isn't a great combination, but sane regulation and continued sales runs against people's puritanical instincts
That's ultimately who wins in these situations. At least back by history, but shit with how somethings get hyped on social
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You're wrong. This is not a product people can just take a vacation from while the FDA decides on a "safe" nictone product.
This will drive people to the black market or back to regular cigarettes (which gets the sin tax.)
I just ordered the VG/PG fluid and the liquid pure niconte and will be trying to figure out how to make my own flavored liquids for my own personal use. I can follow instructions but I don't believe that me doing it myself will initially be safer than buying it from the legal market.
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"This is just Libertarian hysteria BS. This has never been the case so long as legal supplies of a safe product have been readily available."
You forgot cheap. Cheap and safe product supplies have been readily available.Cannabis is a great example where high state taxes maintain black market competitive pricing and keep the black markets alive.
But you asserted this was Libertarian hyteria BS and then turned around and made their argument... additional taxes, scrutiny, and restrictions reduce the availability
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What a joke this country has become, and believe me, I support the second amendment, with reason.
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Too bad the vaping industry doesn't have the NVA to protect it like the gun industry has the NRA and GOP.
What a joke this country has become, and believe me, I support the second amendment, with reason.
/agreed
I think it's possible to support the second amendment and ALSO think the NRA doesn't have our best interests in mind.
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Include Republicans along with the NRA.
Re:Did someone post a DIY recipe somewhere? (Score:4, Insightful)
Hell, include pretty much every political party, ideology,, religion, nation, race, or gender/sexual beliefs. Every single one has over time engaged in the same kinds of shit to greater or lesser degrees depending on when in history and on what issues you look at. That's because there are no perfect people, many being very flawed and also happening to be the types that seek positions of power.
There are no innocents here, everyone lives in glass houses. You can't view the whole world as oppressor versus oppressed as everyone has played both parts and will again because humans do human things that are part of basic lizard-brain human nature.
I swear, if you switched around a few names and terms, today sounds almost like a repeat of the Moral Majority/Jerry Falwell moral panic days from back in the damned '80s with Trump as Satan and coordinated social media de-platforming for wrongthink instead of record album warning stickers and "I know it when I see it" obscenity laws! The elites apparently share a love of reboots and sequels with Hollywood.
Strat
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You should write a manifesto.
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You should write a manifesto.
Thankfully, someone already did that for me.
It's called "The Declaration of Independence" and it's followed up by "The US Constitution".
You should try giving them a read sometime...they certainly beat the shit out of anything written by Karl Marx, Benito Mussolini, or Mao Zedong.
Strat
Industry (Score:4, Insightful)
The vaping industry is, most likely, all for the crackdown. What will happen is there will be onerous restrictions on what can be sold over the counter, squeezing out all the small independent producers. All that will be left are the large players, like Juul.
Re:Industry (Score:5, Insightful)
This isn't "the vaping industry" to begin with.
This is people who bought either cut-rate or illegal stuff out of someone's trunk, and then people are shocked, shocked I tell you, when such products are of, shall we say, highly variable quality and safety standards.
But dragging the legal market into it is idiotic. It would be like trying to ban anesthesiologists from using fentanyl because people die from overdoses of it when obtained illegally.
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It would be like trying to ban anesthesiologists from using fentanyl because people die from overdoses of it when obtained illegally
No a better comparison would be banning anesthesiologists from formulating their own fentanyl in the back of their van for use in surgery.
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That's already illegal. As is selling home-brewed THC cartridges. So, basically, no new laws are needed, just enforcement of the ones already on the books.
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from what i read its people cutting their BHO with vitamin E Acetate. It sounds like the hippie dippie bullshit you can expect from Colorado. "oh man, vitamin E is good for you, lets use that as a thinner". Sorry hippie brain dead dipshit, but the properties of vitamin E at 275 degress are not safe to inhale. Less time jerking off in moms basement, more time paying attention in chemistry class. PolyEtheleneGlyol (PEG) 400 has been approved by the FDA for drugs like Symbacort. But lets use an oil base deriva
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Back when I was vaping I had my own recipe, but it didn't involve THC or drugs. It was simply a PG/VG mix with food flavoring bits. Here in my country you can buy VG for 8-9 bucks a liter and PG is readily available in online food stores as well as specialized brick-and-mortar ones.
As for the nicotine in the juice, there are "nicotine shots" legally sold, 10ml a bottle, containing 10 mg/ml nicotine concentration. I used to dilute it 1:10 ratio if I needed nicotine, but I was vaping for months nicotine-free.
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Or, alternatively, with the influx of less informed users, some may just do really dumb things. Would not be the first time.
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Then suddenly you add a checkbox to the form with "Vapes". Suddenly it turns out some hundred or so of those vape.
Then you report sudden surge in vaping related lung disease.
Despite that it's a good thing they're doing quality control on the fluids by testing them with people with lung problems.
The statistics don't add up (Score:3, Insightful)
Do the statistics add up for you to have cause for concern?
Odds of death: 1 in 1,661,693 [twitter.com]
Re:The statistics don't add up (Score:5, Insightful)
Over 3,000 people die because of cars EVERY DAY.
MUST BAN THE CARS!
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Over 3,000 people die because of cars EVERY DAY.
MUST BAN THE CARS!
People don't volunteer to die because of cars.
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Look: I study logical fallacies just like you do. Unlike you I don't weaponize the goddam things. Sadly, I recognize them, and the difference between bullshit and wild honey.
You got caught. Give it up.
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Cars are heavily regulated. Safety systems, emissions, and of course you need a license to drive one on a public road where you might harm other people.
Vaping companies keep their recipes secret and there is basically no oversight. Unsurprisingly this leads to all kinds of stuff being added to the fluid.
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From the factory. Dodge challenger, Dodge Charger, Ford Mustang, Chevy Camaro. All factory stock to a Muscle car. Then you can go into the Super cars, the Dodge Viper, Chevy Corvette, etc.
There is really nothing to be added to the factory cars to make it more of a muscle car.
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Tobacco smoked killed 1300 people.... yesterday. and the day before, and the day before that. It will kill 1300 people tomorrow. and the next day.
This 'crisis' is a beautiful blend of FUD and hypocrisy. i have no doubt that big tobacco is behind it all. You dont see flavored cigarettes, funny that it's the flavor aspect of vaping that gets all the attention.
makes you wonder...
cw
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People shouldn't be getting hysterical about this - but then people also shouldn't be dismissing it out of hand, either.
How long were people smoking cigarettes before the health issues became apparent? Remember that vaping has only been around in the US and Europe since 2006 - and didn't immediately catch on.
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People shouldn't be getting hysterical about this - but then people also shouldn't be dismissing it out of hand, either.
How long were people smoking cigarettes before the health issues became apparent? Remember that vaping has only been around in the US and Europe since 2006 - and didn't immediately catch on.
How long was the problem VERY apparent before any kind of legislation was passed? Oh right after a couple decades they put words on the side of the box.
For FUCK sake I can still go down the street and by a box of lucky Strike RIGHT NOW.
But juice? maybe not.
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While an interesting comment, that doesn't really address the idea that we may not have a good handle on vaping's deleterious health effects yet.
Re:The statistics don't add up (Score:4, Insightful)
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The FDA can't do anything about this since the vape juice that is causing the problem is already illegal. Interestingly, legalizing THC at the federal level would probably reduce the risk since reputable suppliers would enter the market.
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Nope.
The argument goes like this:
THC users: we want legal weed! it will be safer and you can tax it!
Government : OK, here you go.
THC users: your taxes are too high, we can get illegal weed for much less.
Government: That's because they aren't paying taxes or being monitored.
THC users: Bah. We've used illegal stuff for years. We'll keep using it, and you really won't bother prosecuting them now that weed itself is legal. It's a misdemeanor.
In California, there are something like 300 legal weed shops, and 3000
Is vaping cannabis really the cause? (Score:1)
People have been using vaporizers for 20+ years, making them into a pen is how the nicotine version got started. So... is it a bad process, batch of chemical, or increased access/allergy/genetics ? I do question flavors for any vaping as safe, but this seems unrelated so far.
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They're pretty certain it's being caused by Vitamin E-derived cutting agents used in black market THC cartridges. But since states are losing so much tax revenue from people switching from cigarettes that this hysteria is just a manufactured excuse to tax the hell out of vape products.
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I love taco trucks and mom/pop style restaurants but we need health codes to ensure people don't die from a street taco. The same is needed for vaping products and additives are 100% unregulated.
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Vegetable Glycerin, Propylene Glycol and flavoring additives are already regulated by the FDA. Those are the only ingredients in ejuice (except optional nicotine). Killing your customers or making them sick is not a very good business model so buying from an established marketplace is as safe as it's going to get.
Buying illicit THC cartridges are the problem. Can't "regulate" that until you make them legal everywhere.
The next step you'll see in this vape hoax will be outlawing online sales to make legit
Re:Is vaping cannabis really the cause? (Score:5, Informative)
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I think you are confusing your stomach and lungs. The FDA dosent regulate vaping flavor additives [wired.com]. What's safe to eat, like vitamin E oil can be deadly to inhale.
That's all well and good but vitamin e isn't a flavor anyway.
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Flavorings have been used for over a decade. These illnesses have all happened suddenly within what, the past 3 weeks? Are some flavors problematic? Probably, but that's not what's causing this or we'd have seen many more illnesses/deaths long before now.
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Flavorings have been used for over a decade. These illnesses have all happened suddenly within what, the past 3 weeks? Are some flavors problematic? Probably, but that's not what's causing this or we'd have seen many more illnesses/deaths long before now.
The complaints about flavorings are separate from the concerns about vaping liquids that cause lung illness. The confusion is understandable because the deaths and illnesses have highlighted concerns about vaping in general, leading to the flavoring complaints getting more attention/action.
The flavoring concern isn't about the flavorings themselves being harmful, but about the way they seem to increase underage vaping.
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Actually, when news of "popcorn lung" started circulating, practically all vendors ceased using diacetyl well in advance of any FDA or OSHA actions.
Regulators aren't going to touch menthol since that would keep cigarette makers from making starter cigarettes to help young people take up the habit without coughing.
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Re:Is vaping cannabis really the cause? (Score:4, Interesting)
It's not the THC itself. The current thinking is that there's some adulterant being used that is causing the problem. Since THC isn't legal in many of the places where incidents have happened, the juice is likely being made by people who don't know or care what they're doing under unclean conditions.
I suspect it's either a poor choice of solvent to extract the THC or something meant to make it seem stronger.
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It's not the THC itself. The current thinking is that there's some adulterant being used that is causing the problem. Since THC isn't legal in many of the places where incidents have happened, the juice is likely being made by people who don't know or care what they're doing under unclean conditions.
I suspect it's either a poor choice of solvent to extract the THC or something meant to make it seem stronger.
The legal dispensaries jack the prices up, forcing the poor (lower middle class) to black market street alternatives.
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I'm told that California's taxes are among the highest, but honestly, the pricing relative to quality just didn't seem that bad out there. Plus the convenience of just walking into a store.
In a place like California specifically, with its long history of widely tolerated marijuana use, semi-legal dispensaries, I can see where some people may have had a high quality, easy and relatively low cost marijuana buying experience and how some people might continue that if they really only want flower.
But it just b
Very Confusing ... (Score:3)
So are they talking about these e-cigarette things or about "vaping marijuana"? It seems quite unclear, and the referenced article is also quite unclear. In fact, the whole thing is totally confusing. This is probably on purpose, of course.
Note that "vaping" for marijuana, hashish, and oil have been around for decades before the e-cigarette hit the scene.
So I guess one should stick to consuming cigarettes, marijuana, hashish, and oil the good old fashioned way. Still kills you, but it takes 70 or 80 years (or was it the drinking water that kills you? In any case, death usually ensues anyway.) Every dead person drank water, but only some of them smoked substances. Therefore it is more likely that drinking water is the cause of death than the smoking.
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There's little doubt at this point that the ambiguity is intentional.
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Vaping THC,CBD, or extracts in oil with a cotton batting over an electrically heated coil shouldn't be confused with dry herb vaporizing where hot air is drawn over the flowers directly aerosolizing the oils and terpines without fully combusting the material. People have been commonly heating flowers for at least 50 years, it's just lithium batteries and legalization has made the portable hand held dry herb units popular in the last 5 years.
They have ceramic elements with no cotton these days.
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So are they talking about these e-cigarette things or about "vaping marijuana"? It seems quite unclear, and the referenced article is also quite unclear. In fact, the whole thing is totally confusing. This is probably on purpose, of course.
Note that "vaping" for marijuana, hashish, and oil have been around for decades before the e-cigarette hit the scene.
So I guess one should stick to consuming cigarettes, marijuana, hashish, and oil the good old fashioned way. Still kills you, but it takes 70 or 80 years (or was it the drinking water that kills you? In any case, death usually ensues anyway.) Every dead person drank water, but only some of them smoked substances. Therefore it is more likely that drinking water is the cause of death than the smoking.
Throw her in the river! If she floats and lives she's a witch! If she sinks and dies she must be innocent.
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I don't know about anybody else (Score:1)
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It's legal in many states. There is no federal law prohibiting THC consumption. But you already knew all that.
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It's not legal in any states, due to the Supremacy Clause. But you knew that already.
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There is no federal law prohibiting THC consumption. Note the ops use of the word "consumption".
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Look Betty, don't start up with your white zone shit again. There's just no stopping in a white zone.
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Consuming THC is a criminal offense (on the books), so the people who use it should be cured and then locked up. There is no medical use for THC, only for CBD.
Or better still, they could simply decriminalize THC so that reputable companies could sell THC-based vaping juice which doesn't contain dubious "cutting agents". And as a bonus, nobody gets locked up. (There's no medical use for pizza or beer, either.)
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And in China you will likely just get shot for doing illegal drugs. On the other hand, while I see no benefit at all from THC I wish some really useful stuff was legal - e.g. cocaine as a brain performance enhancer.
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Actually old style beers are suitable for rehydration and refeeding after excessive physical work or long periods of fasting. And to a starving child in Somalia on the bring on dying from complete lack of nutrition, a pizza may be just what the doctor ordered.
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Those things would be better done with plain water and cans of Ensure.
Pizza and beer are too pleasurable. They need to be outlawed.
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Years ago, I used to work out with a group of friends (p90x , insanity) if anyone remembers that torture.
When i was done I would drink a pounder (a pint). My friends thought I was insane.
I kindly explained that I was simply doing my body good.
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Consuming THC is a criminal offense (on the books), so the people who use it should be cured and then locked up. There is no medical use for THC, only for CBD.
Locking people up has been clinically proven ineffective. Simple rehabilitation is much cheaper and much more effective.
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Rehabilitation while locked up is fine too, at least in civilized places.
There's an easy test for legality of THC products (Score:3)
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Consuming THC is not a criminal offense. Having it in your pocket or selling it is a criminal offense. However, if you do happen to come across some the only way to comply with the law is to dispose of it by burning it forthwith perhaps accompanied by inhalation of the smoke, or by eating it.
Lack of clarity (Score:2)
"The focus is on the supply chain," Mitch Zeller, director of the FDA's Center for Tobacco Products, told the Post. "We're very alarmed about products containing THC."
The FDA has consistently hinted about a causative link between cases of illness or death related to grey/black market extracts containing THC. They've never been clear, nor published any initial studies regarding what made the users ill.
What they haven't said is that there's any link between people who have used nicotine fluids.
There h
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They've never been clear, nor published any initial studies regarding what made the users ill
That's because its under investigation. Do you want them to say bad information right now or correct information later? At the moment from all the published advisors [cdc.gov] from the CDC it looks like a fat embolism is what they are putting front and center. Now, that's not them saying that out loud, but the things they're putting out sounds like they are investigating the oils inside the vape to see if they are small enough to penetrate deep into the lung, coalesce, and then form an embolism that can begin trav
The ad campaign target demographic ... (Score:2)
... right here:
...[50%+] under 25, with two-thirds between 18 and 34, and 16% under 18.
Score! Targeted ads for those people for quality-controlled products?
The ever-easy solution (Score:4)
Gee, illegal street drugs can have dangerous things in them. I'm sure the FDA just now figured that one out.
The solution is simple: Legalize and regulate. People don't go blind from methanol poisoning when they buy a bottle of whiskey from the liquor store, because if a legal producer were to sell such a product, they'd get the shit sued out of them and likely face other sanctions as well. So, they're very careful about quality control. On the other hand, if you're buying a bottle of hooch out of some guy's trunk, well, you're taking your chances as to what's in it.
If you want to cut way down on the black market, create an alternative to it. How many people bought illegally produced liquor during Prohibition? How quick did that black market evaporate after it was ended?
Some days, I swear we never learn.
Thaaat's Nice (Score:2)
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"How many people a year do cigarettes kill?"
None.
But some people burn a great many cigarettes a year. Oh think of the cigarettes, those poor little darlings, burned all they are ...
I have an idea (Score:1)
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So everyone's too concerned with being nice to tell to the truth. Nicotine product users are knowingly damaging their health and they're too weak and pathetic and lacking in willpower to stop. They deserve the consequences of their actions. Why not just go completely hands off?
So everyone's too concerned with being nice to tell to the truth. Red meat product users are knowingly damaging their health and they're too weak and pathetic and lacking in willpower to stop. They deserve the consequences of their actions. Why not just go completely hands off?
So everyone's too concerned with being nice to tell to the truth. Automobile industry product users are knowingly damaging their health and they're too weak and pathetic and lacking in willpower to stop. They deserve the consequences
*sigh* (Score:2)
Breathing chemicals into your lungs could be harmful if you don't pay close attention to what's actually in the stuff. How surprising...
How many supply chains are there? (Score:2)
Don't send ppl to drug dealers for a bit of weed (Score:1)