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China Education Government

A Student Was Rejected By A College Because Of China's 'Social Credit System' (buzzfeed.com) 255

Posted by msmash from the closer-look dept.
An anonymous reader shares a report: A prestigious college in Beijing that reportedly tried to bar a student because his father was on a government blacklist is causing huge controversy in China. According to state media reports, a high school student with the surname Rao in the eastern city of Wenzhou, in Zhejiang province, was accepted on the back of his score in China's fiendishly difficult and incredibly competitive national college entrance exam. But before his family could enjoy Rao's accomplishments, the college notified them he may not be able to attend because of his father's poor credit standing -- the father owed 200,000 RMB (about $30,000) to a local bank, and had been put on a blacklist dubbed the "lost trust list" for individuals with bad social standing, state media reported.

Blacklists are a key feature of China's controversial "social credit system" -- a set of government programs that sets up both incentives and disincentives to encourage people to behave in socially desirable ways. Social credit in today's China involves government programs that collect and analyze data from different parts of people's lives, including their education history, compliance with traffic rules, criminal history and debt. It has raised serious concerns over individual privacy rights.
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A Student Was Rejected By A College Because Of China's 'Social Credit System' More

A Student Was Rejected By A College Because Of China's 'Social Credit System'

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  • What Individual Privacy Rights? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by brian.stinar ( 1104135 ) on Monday July 16, 2018 @11:22AM (#56956986) Homepage

    We're talking about China, right?

  • Like Mccarhty? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by lucasnate1 ( 4682951 ) on Monday July 16, 2018 @11:25AM (#56957018) Homepage

    Just read "I married a communist", a novel about the Mccrathy era. There was a part there where someone was unable to get a scholarship because a friend of his was in a blacklist. Yes, I know that technically one can have the money to study without the scholarship, but I bet that someone rich enough to do that would also have enough money to somehow fix his social credit.

    • Re:Like Mccarhty? (Score:5, Funny)

      by NFN_NLN ( 633283 ) on Monday July 16, 2018 @11:32AM (#56957074)

      Just read "I married a communist", a novel about the Mccrathy era. There was a part there where someone was unable to get a scholarship because a friend of his was in a blacklist. Yes, I know that technically one can have the money to study without the scholarship, but I bet that someone rich enough to do that would also have enough money to somehow fix his social credit.

      Yes, but this is unrealistic in general. It's not like there is a centralized list where everyone's friends and relationships are documented. And even if there was the government agency required to staff it would be ridiculous. You would literally have to trick a moronic populous into entering their own information into a database of sorts. -MZ

      • Re:Like Mccarhty? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by volodymyrbiryuk ( 4780959 ) on Monday July 16, 2018 @11:55AM (#56957284)
        In that kind of environment it would be enought to have people snitch on people they don't like, telling about that one 'suspicious' friend the other person has. It worked in the Soviet Union and in the GDR. Why wouldn't it work in the US.

      • Just read "I married a communist", a novel about the Mccrathy era. There was a part there where someone was unable to get a scholarship because a friend of his was in a blacklist. Yes, I know that technically one can have the money to study without the scholarship, but I bet that someone rich enough to do that would also have enough money to somehow fix his social credit.

        Yes, but this is unrealistic in general. It's not like there is a centralized list where everyone's friends and relationships are documented. And even if there was the government agency required to staff it would be ridiculous. You would literally have to trick a moronic populous into entering their own information into a database of sorts. -MZ

        Perhaps we would need some sort of website filled with names and faces where individuals self identified their friends and family members. To make it more palatable we should call it a "book" of sorts. Yes, that's it, a Book of Faces! Then the government would just sit back while people self incriminate. But, no one would really fall for that would they?

    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Just read Sara Sander's book "I tried to eat at the Red Hen" where she was harassed out of the restraint, then followed to another one and harassed out of that one as well. Then a DNC leader, Maxine Waters, suggested doing it to the point where people like Sanders couldn't get food anywhere and would starve to death.

      This isn't something from the 50s, its from last week and I haven't seen many DNC leaders saying it was wrong. We have a major political party pushing for the starvation of half the country b

  • Sins of the Father (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TWX ( 665546 ) on Monday July 16, 2018 @11:26AM (#56957020)

    I thought we weren't supposed to punish children for sins of the father, or the mother, or other family members. We were supposed to punish people for their own sins only.

    • Re:Sins of the Father (Score:5, Insightful)

      by TFlan91 ( 2615727 ) on Monday July 16, 2018 @11:29AM (#56957050)

      In America, sure, for instance, you do not inherit your parents debt when they pass away.

      But this is China. Literally a world apart. "Family shame" is a very pervasive concept in Asia

      • You inherit your parent's estate, which includes both debt and property. So you only getting a difference, debt is paid first. This includes some non-obvious things as all the Medicaid payments made to the parent after age of 55.

        And then, in half of the states, adult children are on hook for their deceased parent's medical bills, if estate is not enough to cover it.

        • Re:Sins of the Father (Score:4, Insightful)

          by TFlan91 ( 2615727 ) on Monday July 16, 2018 @12:25PM (#56957448)

          Yes, the ESTATE pays the debt. If the estate cannot close the debt, as in pay it down to 0, it does not get passed on to the children - except those states who pass down medical bills

        • And then, in half of the states, adult children are on hook for their deceased parent's medical bills, if estate is not enough to cover it.

          While legally true, those laws are very old and so rarely enforced that it's almost unheard of. Last time anything similar was enforced in any state was 2012 in PA, and it was for a living parent in a nursing home, not an estate.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by NFN_NLN ( 633283 )

      Affirmative action was the catalyst. Once that was accepted it set the precedent for all types of indirect accountability.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      Communism and China was its own views on guilt by association to a group, clan.
      What to do with landlords and wealthy peasants.
      Counter-revolutionary in deeds.
      The Social credit system can track everything a Communist nation has to consider.
      The role of interpersonal relationships and the Social credit system is easy to understand.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
      Under "Interpersonal relationships".

    • I thought we weren't supposed to punish children for sins of the father, or the mother, or other family members.

      There are plenty of countries where such niceties do not apply. There also are countries where women are executed because they had the audacity to get raped and thus soil the family name. Plenty of places will punish your family for your behavior regardless of the objective morality of doing so.

      We were supposed to punish people for their own sins only.

      That's a nice sentiment that doesn't really happen even in the US. Heck if you were so foolish as to be born to parents that were poor and a minority then chances are very high you are going to have trouble gettin

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

      Sure. In the US a college would never reject a student because their parents had bad credit.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by saider ( 177166 )

        They absolutely will. Even if the parents credit is crap, they know they can sign the kid up for all kinds of student loans. The college gets their money up front and the loan sharks get a non-dischargeable loan and can continue to collect even through a bankruptcy. It's the new indentured servitude.
         

    • They have to make an example out of some people to scare others into being the obedient little robots that the communist Chinese regime wants everyone to be. The irony will be that the chilling effects such actions have on the populace will stifle creativity right along with stifling independent thinking. They may get their human automatons, but eventually they'll only be good for doing what they're told. You may not always like what some people do with actual freedom of thought and freedom of action, but t

      • The irony will be that the chilling effects such actions have on the populace will stifle creativity right along with stifling independent thinking. They may get their human automatons, but eventually they'll only be good for doing what they're told.

        The Chinese are not concerned as they can and do steal the creative/innovative ideas from those living in more-free & more-open societies. That's been their practice literally for decades. Well, except when leaders like Bill Clinton hand the Chinese things like advanced missile guidance technology. I wonder how much money the Chinese gave Bill Clinton for that? At least the deal that Clinton pushed for to allow the Chinese military to take over an old US Navy base in CA located next to a nuclear submari

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Sloppy ( 14984 )

      I thought we weren't supposed to punish children for sins of the father, or the mother, or other family members. We were supposed to punish people for their own sins only.

      Who is "we?" We, the people who run the Chinese government? I don't remember any of us proposing the change that you're talking about.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Swistak ( 899225 )
      This is a relatively new concept. Previously it was usually 3 generations of suffereing for sins of your predecesors. Confucianism from the start said that your entire family is responsible for your actions.
    • Who is this "we" you speak of?
      Are not the children of illegal aliens being punished for their "sins" of illegal border crossing?
      Are not the children of those who go into America's penal system punished for their parents "sins"? ie: parents have always lost their children when they go to prison. There are no "child care" options in prison, thus if women get pregnant or give birth while in prison, they lose their children
      Also note, that China does not officially recognize any religion, therefore "sin" as

    • I thought we weren't supposed to punish children for sins of the father, or the mother, or other family members. We were supposed to punish people for their own sins only.

      That idea comes from Judeo-Christian theology. China does not have that tradition.

  • Not new news (Score:3)

    by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Monday July 16, 2018 @11:27AM (#56957034)

    I thought it was explained when we first read about the system this is exactly what is supposed to happen...

    Although frankly I think it a bit unfair to mark the son for the failings of the father. But I guess if you are going to be developing a permanent underclass, it makes more sense to have child social status influenced by the parents as an easier means of keeping them down to the same level for life.

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • This is about a debt to the bank, not about saying "China is bad."

        That's not what I read in any article about the new social capital plan. The stuff I read a while ago said your score was influenced not *just* by things you said, but just as much by your behavior in public (based on facial tracking cameras located around cities), and things like your financial actions. So this fits right in, the only slightly new bit being a fairly old son affected by a fathers social capital score - but even there I reme

  • It's a communist dictatorship (Score:5, Insightful)

    by cascadingstylesheet ( 140919 ) on Monday July 16, 2018 @11:45AM (#56957174) Journal

    As communist dictatorships go, this little thing in this story is pretty mild.

    Beats taking him out to a ditch and shooting him because he is an "intellectual" who might mislead the proletariat.

    Again, it's a communist dictatorship. The government could have literally ordered that he not be allowed to be born. And they do that very thing, with their population control policy.

    • it's a dictatorship. Nothing, and I mean _nothing_ about China is communist. Not even a little bit. For Christ's sake, they're our biggest trading partner. They have more millionaires and billionaires than the US does (to be fair that's mostly up to their large population, but the point still stands, millionaires wouldn't exist in a communist dictatorship).

      Oh, and China no longer controls birth rates. They've finished emptying out the villages and they need the kids again.

  • Apply our own 'social credit score' on China (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Sebby ( 238625 ) on Monday July 16, 2018 @11:52AM (#56957244)

    Since China insists on inflicting a "social score" on their citizens, I think the rest of the world should do the same on China

    Wanna export your products here? Sorry, our "social score" for China prohibits us from doing so

    Want our companies to use your workforce? Oh, sorry, China's "social score" doesn't allow for our companies to do business with it

    • The problem being is, as a European looking in, I'm not sure whose social score would be lower; America's or China's.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Sebby ( 238625 )

        The problem being is, as a European looking in, I'm not sure whose social score would be lower; America's or China's.

        America's.

        • Re:Apply our own 'social credit score' on China (Score:5, Interesting)

          by TFlan91 ( 2615727 ) on Monday July 16, 2018 @12:29PM (#56957474)

          As bad as America looks right now, it is still by far a better place to live than China.

          Just because America is showing a bit of nastiness that's been hiding under the rug for the last half century, doesn't mean the rest of the world is any better.

          Where I live now, in eastern Europe, it is incredibly racist, unbelievably so, but the difference is that most people share those opinions so you don't have public outrage over a racist incident, people just nod their head in silent agreement and move on.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

      Good idea. I think someone may have beaten you to it though:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Sebby ( 238625 )

        Oh, no no no. Do not call it "embargoes" or "sanctions"; call it exactly "social credit score" - rub their noses in it.

        And if China protests, just say we modelled it after their own, and we thought they'd be pleased/flattered we did so.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by rsborg ( 111459 )

      Since China insists on inflicting a "social score" on their citizens, I think the rest of the world should do the same on China

      Wanna export your products here? Sorry, our "social score" for China prohibits us from doing so

      Want our companies to use your workforce? Oh, sorry, China's "social score" doesn't allow for our companies to do business with it

      This used to be the case until Richard Nixon (GOP) opened the road to China, and Bill Clinton (DEM) bestowed "Most Favored Nation" status on them for trade. You'll see that I included both parties because it's more about who funded these guys and their teams. Wealthy people want more money. Ethics, Rights, your livelyhood? Check that at the door.

  • In the usa you can get Student Loans with Bad Credit.

  • compliance with traffic rules? what is speeding like there?

    Is like the USA where you have under posted limits and towns where it's all about the revenue? With some roads where you need to be doing like 75-80+ (posted at 55-60) to get an ticket.

  • This is how revolutions start.

    • and they deal with it like this.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

    • Re:Keep it up China (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Oswald McWeany ( 2428506 ) on Monday July 16, 2018 @12:43PM (#56957596)

      This is how revolutions start.

      Revolutions don't work any more. Militaries and intelligence technologies are too powerful. If you want a revolution to work- you have to have the backing of the military.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by lgw ( 121541 )

        Revolutions don't work any more. Militaries and intelligence technologies are too powerful. If you want a revolution to work- you have to have the backing of the military.

        Or ex-military, like the American Revolution. Hardly a new thing.

      • The Arab spring revolutions "worked" in the sense of overthrowing some governments. The problem with revolutions is they turn into civil wars. A revolution in China would likely be a very bloody disaster occupying all the world's efforts/money for the next couple of decades. Would be a huge breeding ground for terrorists who'd later spread across the world too.

    • There is no unrest in China, nor will there ever be.

  • In America here, we just go straight to using the Credit Score itself as a social credit score. We don't have a second layer on top of it.

  • Comment removed (Score:3)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday July 16, 2018 @12:17PM (#56957378)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • This is a very backward system... thank goodness in America we have a legal system that does not allow responsibility for crimes or wrongs to be passed on from the parent to a child.

    Hell --- our constitution even prevents it from the most severe crimes which in Europe were considered a permanent dishonor to one's family and future descendants Article III Section 3:

    Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture exce

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by JustNiz ( 692889 )

      > the government is only allowed to have it Forfeit for the rest of the Life of the Person attainted

      That's great in principle but I'd bet in practice that it's at least hard and legally expensive to get the government to ever give anything back.

      It sounds pretty much like one of those scams (like when you buy electronics that you have to jump through hoops to get and mail in a refund application) that counts on making more money by a percentage of people not knowing/bothering.

      • Its probably a reaction to stuff royalty did; I bet it used to be pretty easy to hang a political rival for treason and take his land back in the day if you were the crown.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by mysidia ( 191772 )

        I'd bet in practice that it's at least hard and legally expensive to get the government to ever give anything back.

        It has been relatively rare for anyone to be tried of treason, and typically the penalty is death by execution or life imprisonment: not forfeiting the use of their land or other real properties (for their lifetime) that would be protected ---- it's simple really, their punishment will cause the person to never see their land again, the government doesn't typically take it in the fi

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by TheSync ( 5291 )

      thank goodness in America we have a legal system that does not allow responsibility for crimes or wrongs to be passed on from the parent to a child.

      Uh, what about "Dreamers"?

  • Common people!!! This is not a tech story. Who the hell is letting this crap through?
    • /. has for number of years pushed political stories masquerading as news, basically the same crap that the MSM pushes through and in many cases regurgitating the same 'news'. I don't even come here often anymore because there is no tech news of interest here (for that I suggest devzone).
    • You're a 5-digit UID. You haven't yet learned to skim over /. articles in which you're not interested?

    • Anything that fits in a cyberpunk novel or an episode of Black Mirror qualifies for Slashdot by default.

    • You mean that a story about a massive digital measuring and judgement system that we are slowly starting to see the extent of is not 'news for nerds'?

  • As bad as you think it could be, this is the future for most countries.

    Just as telescopes are lenses that look into the past, China/India are lenses into the future of eventual overpopulated countries. Granted that this one of many futures as China/India are different. ...however... its coming. Prepare for it.

    Just as you've got the war on cash to get everyone into a system that can be tracked, this will force more people into a future fully monitored society.

  • When this thing was coming out, I spoke in defense of it. I mean, America has it's own credit score system. I didn't really see a big difference between outsourcing it to 3 semi-branches of government or having it directly controlled by government. I thought it was going to be used for loans and stuff.

    Nope. Travel rights, blanket punishment for Muslims, college admittance. Fuck that noise.

    Anyone a fan of cyberpunk? Neuromancer, Snowcrash, Shadowrun? I'm a firm believer that we've simply caught up to thos

  • We really need to start looking at the long term effects of these systems om societies. After all, here in the west the market is slowly piecing together a similar infrastructure (databrokers and their ilk).

    While China covets these chilling effects, here in the west we might best frame when as an unwelcome side-effect, e.g. Social Cooling. https://www.socialcooling.com/ [socialcooling.com]

  • Organ donar short list (Score:3)

    by Martin S. ( 98249 ) on Monday July 16, 2018 @05:45PM (#56959582) Journal

    Some of these people are imprisoned purely for the purpose of becoming organ donors for the new elite.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2016/0... [cnn.com]

    https://www.theguardian.com/wo... [theguardian.com]

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