Los Angeles Flirts With Pre-Crime (washingtonpost.com) 390
An anonymous reader writes: The city of Los Angeles is considering a new plan to fight prostitution: sending letters to men who solicit prostitutes in the hopes that the letters are seen by family members. Why not just arrest them while they're doing it? Because these letters aren't being sent to the houses of men who were convicted, or even arrested. Instead, automated license plate readers would scan the cars driving down streets known to have a prostitution problem, and the letters would be sent to the address associated with those vehicles. An article about the plan says, "There isn't 'potential' for abuse here, this is a legislated abuse of technology that is already controversial when it's used by police for the purpose of seeking stolen vehicles, tracking down fugitives and solving specific crimes."
A day that ends in "y" for LAPD (Score:5, Insightful)
They're used to being sued, and losing. I guess they're under budget this year, and need to spend a few more million before New Years day on legal fees.
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Hey, in California, the government authorities are always looking for a reason to raise taxes. Making up the difference in legal fees might just be another way of skimming additional revenue.
I see this as more a response to being unable to raise taxes. We have laws against prostitution which require money to enforce. We have much bigger problems that are more deserving of what law enforcement dollars exist. So how to enforce this law without spending money on it? Try to chill it. It's cheaper than enforce
Re:A day that ends in "y" for LAPD (Score:5, Insightful)
Prostitution should be legalized and regulated, and human trafficking should be aggressively prosecuted. Let consenting adults engage in whatever services they deem fit, and then focus law enforcement resources on those who actually harm others.
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Prostitution should be legalized and regulated
are you trying to kill the sexbot industry?! ;)
Re:A day that ends in "y" for LAPD (Score:4, Insightful)
Prostitution *is* legal in the US. As long as you film it and sell the resulting video.
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And if prostitution was legalized formally those wouldn't be required regulatory procedure?
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"But don't let your TV cartoon legal lesson hold you back..." was a completely unnecessary attack on someone you were basically agreeing with. Learn to debate without resorting to insults and your arguments will be more effective. Otherwise your just another asshole on the internet.
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Prostitution is already legal, it just requires a camera being used at the same time.
"I'm shooting a porno, there is no prostitution happening here"
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I believe that varies by state, and I've read that one big distinction may be me paying a woman to have sex with me versus me paying a woman to have sex with you. BTW, legalizing prostitution without further ado may cause problems. In some cases, welfare mothers or women on unemployment may have their benefits dropped if they refuse a job, meaning that if "Maria's Sex-n-Go" is hiring some women are going to be coerced into working there.
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Re:A day that ends in "y" for LAPD (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of people only WORK because they really the money, to feed their family.
Consent should be easy: If the prostitute wants to say no but another person is saying yes FOR her, that is not consent.
Re:A day that ends in "y" for LAPD (Score:5, Funny)
I'd start paying hookers to hang out in front of city hall so their families can get letters like this.
Re:A day that ends in "y" for LAPD (Score:4, Insightful)
They're used to being sued, and losing.
Yup, and apparently they don't care. I'm pretty sure what they are doing is the epitome of libel. It's not abuse of technology, and future president is not at question. They are intentionally trying to defame somebody by accusing them of something they haven't done.
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President? Precedent. Thanks autocorrect.
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Re:A day that ends in "y" for LAPD (Score:5, Insightful)
If Jesus were alive today, the LAPD would send a letter to His family informing them that he might have a prostitution problem.
It reminds me (Score:5, Interesting)
It reminds me of when I visited a friend in hospital, then as I walked back to where I had parked past an abandoned strip club a woman driving past yelled angrily at me "I hope you had a good time". False positives like that are bound to happen.
Re:It reminds me (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:It reminds me (Score:5, Funny)
That's just your inner rape culture talking. There's no such thing as false positives or false accusations.
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"If someone is accused of parking in a handicap space, it doesn't matter if it's a handicap space or not. They're just not the kind of person we want parking in our parking lots."
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It STARTED A CONVERSATION!
Re:It reminds me (Score:5, Interesting)
It reminds me of when I visited a friend in hospital, then as I walked back to where I had parked past an abandoned strip club a woman driving past yelled angrily at me "I hope you had a good time". False positives like that are bound to happen.
As a high school senior I was once visiting a building that had a bunch of picketers outside, a building with a medical clinic that provided STD screenings and abortions. When a pair of "grandmotherly" ladies with concerned looks approached me and asked if I was visiting the clinic on such and such a floor I truthfully answered that I was visiting the Marine Corp recruiter on a different floor. Their concerned looks turned into expressions of joy and love and they said "that's wonderful". When I responded to their reactions with "so its perfectly OK to kill once the other person is born?", their reactions changed to a bit hostile. I think they would have been less hostile had I said I'm meeting my girlfriend for her abortion. The hypocrisy of their "all life is sacred" argument annoyed me. I would have been polite had they offered me some bible versus to read before going in, made some sort of anti-war comment in keeping with their "all life is sacred" notion. Such comments would have been consistent with their beliefs.
Re: hypocrisy (Score:2)
Re: hypocrisy (Score:3)
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So it wasn't just me that thought it's odd that Jesus fan club is more concerned about the yet-to-be life than already existing life? They will fight tooth and nail for you to get born, but as soon as you get popped out, you're on your own.
I can kinda understand it. I mean, projects are more interesting while they're still in creation than when they're done. But still.
Re:It reminds me (Score:5, Interesting)
I know someone whose wife was pregnant. The pregnancy went horribly wrong and the fetus had zero chance of survival (congenital deformities as well as no bladder or kidneys). They had to make a choice I wouldn't wish on anyone: Have an abortion or carry it to term and give birth to a dead baby. The latter would also have put his wife in danger also so they decided on the abortion.
On their way into the clinic, they were accosted by pro-life demonstrators who verbally abused them for "murdering their baby." Here's a couple who is making a horrible decision after being through a horrible situation and these people just walk up with no knowledge of the situation and pile more abuse on. When his wife was taken in for the procedure (he wasn't allowed in), he decided he had enough and confronted them. He even videoed it and posted it to YouTube as well as blogged [goodmenproject.com] about it.
Regardless of your views, preying on people at their weakest (physically or psychologically) is just wrong. If you want to oppose abortion in the political arena, go right ahead (but don't be surprised if you're opposed by those who want abortion to remain an option). However, don't just assume you know the whole tale and then assume you know what's right for the person you're accosting. Some people need to re-learn the grade school lesson about what happens when you "assume."
(NOTE: I'm using the general "you" here. Not referring to anyone in particular here.)
Re:It reminds me (Score:4, Interesting)
A friend of mine got pregnant, unplanned but she was old enough to be happy anyway and say what the hell, I'll be a single mom.
She went for her checkups and scans and the doctor found a cyst in her uterus. The observed it for a couple of weeks and it was growing like crazy. Doctor told her it would kill her long before the baby could be born if she didn't have it removed (which meant removing her uterus and, of course, the fetus).
She was naturally distraught but after a couple of days made the only sensible decision she could and went back to the doctor at that hospital.
He told her with a horrified look and told her that they don't do "that sort of procedure" at this hospital.
She went to a nearby city and had to re-explain everything, have records transferred, etc, in order to save her own life...
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A safe space where you can talk with people sympathetic to your position
You mean an echo chamber with people who will tell you what you want to hear. I would say yours is actually the perfect argument why there should never be 'safe spaces'.
Why is prostitution illegal in the first place? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, if a girl wants to sell her body, why shouldn't she?
Re:Why is prostitution illegal in the first place? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Seriously, if a girl wants to sell her body, why shouldn't she?
Because the government hasn't figured out a way to collect tax on that kind of income without implicitly condoning the behavior/occupation and offending people. Same for drugs.
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In Germany prostitutes are either employees and the employer pays the tax for them (deduces it from the wages), at the end of the year they file a tax declaration, like anybody else, or they are freelancers and they file their tax declaration at the end of the year.
Most countries around us are similar in that regard.
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In Germany ...
Sorry, I thought we were talking about the USA - where all the prudes live :-)
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So condone it. What exactly is the fucking problem?
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Then the obvious solution is to end taxes on all personal business matters. Unless they are working out of a store front.
People are so concerned about unemployment, low wages, etc., yet think everything has to be heavily controlled by government. Allowing more small scale business to be untaxed just means more economic activity.
The government does not always have to "do something."
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Seriously, if a girl wants to sell her body, why shouldn't she?
Agreed. Call girls and escorts can make a good relatively safe living, with well to do clients. These are not them. These are drug addicts with pimps who beat them if they don't hustle enough. It's a tough, dangerous, and diseased lifestyle that is illegal in many ways besides the selling of their bodies.
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Wow, where do you get your information from? Crime TV shows?
You know, legal prostitution would instantly do away with these. Seriously. Who'd want to solicit sex from that kind of prostitute if you can have something else?
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... with pimps who beat them if they don't hustle enough.
In the book Superfreakonomics [amazon.com] the authors conducted a study of prostitutes and pimps, and found that the women who worked with pimps were paid better and were less likely to be victims of violence. Some pimps had waiting lists of freelance prostitutes that wanted to join their teams, to benefit from the better working conditions. The authors found that pimps rarely used violence against their own prostitutes.
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This.
A cop told me once she was tired of the low pay. And she's been around for a while. And if she had to start a business tomorrow, she'd just pimp two girls at a house. Provide them with security (the moment they yell, storm into the room and put a gun to the asshole's face), clean environment, etc, and the girls will gladly work for a pimp.
Female prostitutes often prefer to be pimped instead of going freelance, because they can't get "good corners", due to transvestite/transsexuals beating the shit out
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Seriously, if a girl wants to sell her body, why shouldn't she?
The reason is governments prefer to spend their time fostering unground untaxed, unregulated criminal markets where people are treated like slaves and placed in unnecessary danger.
I don't know why government actively seeks to erode their own legitimacy like this while subjecting their own citizens to unnecessary harm but they routinely do so with reckless abandon.
Or a man (Score:2)
Re:Why is prostitution illegal in the first place? (Score:5, Informative)
In virtually all developed countries in which prostitution has been legalized, human trafficking issues have decreased.
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The ones that I've seen that work quite well to curb human trafficking issues is where it's legal to be a prostitute, but illegal to solicit a prostitute.
Citation? If you've seen some, why not share them so we can make up our own mind?
Re:Why is prostitution illegal in the first place? (Score:4, Insightful)
I believe prostitution should be legal. It's a moral issue: as someone else pointed out, there is no reason to forbid two or more consenting adults to enter into such a transaction. That there are others being forced into it without consent is irrelevant to the morality of the matter: forbidding prostitution on this ground is like forbidding everyone to have sex because rapes do take place. With that said, there may be practical reasons to penalise prostitution: when the vast majority of cases is not consensual, for instance.
With that said, legalising prostitution also gives law enforcement an opportunity to better police the market. If they take that opportunity, human trafficking can be reduced quite effectively. One way that seems to work well is to make soliciting an unwilling prostitute a punishable offence. Another thing they have done in my country is to change labour and tax laws a bit to make legal prostitution a lot easier and safer, for the johns, the women, and operators of establishments where this takes place. With plenty legal venues and prostitutes on the market and severe penalties for human trafficking, it's no longer very attractive to hire, exploit or solicit an illegal prostitute.
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In many cases, legalising prostitution has increased human trafficking. Legalising prostitution increases the market and increases demand, hence the increase in human trafficking. Not just theory, there are statistics to back this up. [No citation given, do your own homework]
Wasting my time searching who knows where trying to verify *your* claims is not *my* homework. If you want to be taken seriously, back your own claims up. If not, you're just another stranger on the internet spewing bullshit.
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I think licenses, regular inspections, and tracking the girl/boy's finance would do much more to cut human trafficking/sex slavery.
Relatively inexpensive, safe, legal prostitution would reduce demand for illegal, less safe, expensive prostitution enormously.
Re:Why is prostitution illegal in the first place? (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually prostitution is not heavily associated with human trafficking from a statistical perspective at all -- in the USA, Europe and Asia. There are some places in the world, like the Middle East and parts of Afrifa, where abduction is indeed a statistically significant issue. Trafficking is also largely associated with underage or child prostitution, which is an entirely different animal.
But the issue here, as with narcotics (and alcohol prohibition, once upon a time), is that illegality begets higher-prices and higher risks, which in turn begets increasingly violent crime. Illegality also prevents the industry from being taxed and to some extent from accessing healthcare -- both of which carry significantly higher social costs than negligible human trafficking.
Most importantly: we have civil liberties in the United States and in Europe which are supposed to protect the right to privacy, and the right for consenting adults to engage in consensual, sexual behavior. What is deeply ironic is how the very same feminists who demand that government "keep your laws off my body", seem to be quite alright with government telling them they don't have the right to engage in the oldest and most basic transaction.
The fact that "money" is raised as a distinction between prostitution and sex is ultimately rather laughable, considering that money is almost never not an issue. Women will always and forever be attracted to wealth, and have sex for wealth. Female doctors do not screw male nurses. Female restaurant owners don't bang waiters. Female pilots don't shack up with male flight attendants. Female bosses don't get banged by their male secretaries. Money and power are always and everywhere part of female attraction -- be it long term, or a quick hook-up. But I digress. The point is, money and sex are now and forever inseparable concepts.
Enlightened societies like Holland and Germany have long ago legalized prostitution, and so should the USA.
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Something like 3/4 or more of human trafficking is actually for labor, not sex slavery. You want to find human trafficking look at factory farms.
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1. The religious have to find a hobby other than digging their nose into business that ain't theirs.
2. Actually it isn't. Prostitution is ONLY associated with human trafficking when prostitution is illegal and people working in that business cannot easily go to law enforcement agencies without risking prosecution themselves. I live in a country where it would be trivial to do human trafficking from areas where there is, let's say, less value put on human lives. And yes, we have prostitutes around the area t
Re:Why is prostitution illegal in the first place? (Score:5, Insightful)
2. Prostitution is *heavily* associated with human trafficking
Illegal prostitution is associated with human trafficking. This is a an argument for legalization. Anyway, "human trafficking" is a far smaller problem [washingtonpost.com] than commonly believed. It has been wildly exaggerated by law enforcement as an excuse to increase their funding.
... a girl being forced to sell her body, rather than wanting to. This is the reason that really matters.
Again, this is something that is worsened by criminalization. The best cure for coercive prostitution is legalization and regulation.
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And yet this discussion - to what extent do you have a right to force your moral standards on me - is the important one.
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News at 11: Jobs = best options (Score:3)
You think people work at McDonald's because they have better options? You think plumbers dig out your clogged toilet because they have better options? You think people dig ditches because they have better options? For that matter, you think I spend my time running a hugely successful business because I have "better options"?
The vast majority of undertakings for pay are done specifically because the
That is so not absurd. (Score:5, Insightful)
Instead, automated license plate readers would scan the cars driving down streets known to have a prostitution problem, and the letters would be sent to the address associated with those vehicles.
Automated iris recognition scanning software should then be used to identify all milk drinkers as children, as a very high percentage of pedophiles drank milk as children.
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It's worse than this. I can't really let out too much yet, but I'm about to publish a revelation that will probably shock the nation. Nearly all, or even all, pedophiles once actually WERE children themselves.
I know, I know, it's a huge controversy and everyone's saying "blaming the victim" and all that, but think about it: Who could better be attracted to a child than: Someone who was one himself?
Hmm?
IT SHOULD BE SO OBVIOUS!
Easy fix (Score:2, Interesting)
WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
Are the police insane? So if someone drives down the wrong street because they don't know that you're not supposed to drive down that street, the police are going to ruin their marriage? For that matter, if someone happens to drive to a bar in that neighborhood, the police are going to harass them?
*Headdesk*
Also, cue the lawsuit in 3... 2... 1...
Re: WTF? (Score:4, Funny)
If a baseless accusation of being a John ruins your marriage, you got bigger problems to worry about. I'd recommend you visit a good divorce attorney tomorrow.
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Um.... I'm not sure what's worse, paying an attorney or living with a woman who doesn't trust you, depends on the hourly rate I guess.... May I suggest that perhaps it is time for marriage counseling? Could be cheaper and might actually fix something...
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Marriage is built on trust. Anything that puts a crack in that trust, unfounded or not, can ruin marriages. It all depends on who you're married to and what their reaction is.
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> If a baseless accusation of being a John ruins your marriage, you got bigger problems to worry about. I'd recommend you visit a good divorce attorney tomorrow.
Good fucking grief. No, if a baseless accusation of being a John ruins your marriage, you sue for libel.
You understand that there are a lot of people who have a relationship that is ok, but that something like this would make a lot worse, right? And that your moralizing about how their relationship should be perfect or not exist at all wouldn't
Re: WTF? (Score:4, Insightful)
If a baseless accusation of being a John ruins your marriage, you got bigger problems to worry about. I'd recommend you visit a good divorce attorney tomorrow.
If a baseless accusation of being paedophile/embezzler/thief/terrorist ruins your employers trust in you, you got bigger problems to worry about.
(See how that works?)
Re: WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
This isn't just some random guy walking up to a couple and saying "Your husband was seen with a prostitute." This is an official letter from the police. There's (for better or worse) a sense of authority there. People (such as his wife, family, friends, co-workers) will think "they wouldn't be accusing him of that unless there was proof it happened." Even if he denies it, the doubt will still be there. (After all, someone who is guilty would deny it too, right?)
This could either lead to more problems or worsen existing ones. Perhaps the couple is going through money problems and stress is running high. The husband was supposed to be out looking for work (and was) but now the wife wonders if instead he was spending what little money they have left on prostitutes. Is it rational? No, but people can often be irrational when in the heat of the moment. Something like this could crumble a relationship all because LA is trying to "tackle pre-crime."
Coming at this from another angle, if it doesn't ruin relationships, it could ruin the reputation of the police department (or what little reputation it has left). If people see these letters as a joke, then any accusation from the police might be seen as false. Actual criminal cases could be impacted because people don't take the police seriously.
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Also, cue the lawsuit in 3... 2... 1...
I think THIS will be the eventual result. The city will loose it's shirt if it tries this..
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This tech has been used in boarder states for years on local roads, to get an image of the driver and passenger, front and back plates and a stingray like device to get the cell phone details (bonus voice print if in use).
The tech is now so cheap that its been sold and supported at a city and state level.
A not visible to the press digital Berlin wall that no registered transport can e
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1. Note license plates in the LAPD employee parking lot, and around city hall
2. Make license plate-sized signs with the numbers
3. Hold them up in front of the ANPR cameras on these streets
4. ????
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Remind me to send letters to: (Score:2)
Bankers, Hedge and Mortgage Fund managers reminding them to not tank the economy again so they can make an extra nickel.
Police reminding them to not shoot unarmed civilians.
"Flirting" with pre-crime? (Score:5, Insightful)
An easy solution to this... (Score:5, Funny)
You can bet they will filter out police officers (Score:2)
Perhaps someone needs to take pics of cops and post them publicly and to their managers as well.
And the lawsuits will start in... (Score:3)
Pass it on (Score:2)
Sounds like they're sending advertisements (Score:2, Funny)
What's that? Prostitutes are on my way home from work? Thanks for letting me know!
Follow the Money (Score:5, Insightful)
As often is the case, you just have to follow the money trail. Someone paid off someone else to push their expensive license plate scanners and services. The police may not even have wanted to do this, but someone up the chain of command got a free vacation home in the Bahamas for implementing the program. It'll all get swept under the rug soon, after enough uproar.
Legalize prostitution, you assholes. (Score:2)
I'm not so sure about that (Score:2)
Wow, thanks Los Angelos (Score:5, Insightful)
Enjoy having the crap sued out of you, L.A. (Score:2)
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Morons. They'll ruin peoples lives, likely based on some moron that saw Minority Report and thought it was a Good Idea.
The surprising thing, to me, was that the people making the movie and TV show seemed to really think it was a good idea. They didn't think they were making a dystopian cautionary tale, they thought they were making a clever crime story set in an actually desirable future.
Solution (Score:5, Interesting)
1. Copy legislator's license plates.
2. Place phony plates on cars near streets known to have a prostitution problem.
3. Hilarity ensues as Los Angeles legislators get prostitution warning letters.
Lawsuits? (Score:3)
Hell, I'd show my SO what the PD is doing, and we'd get in the car together and go trolling for letters. Then it can "ruin our marriage," or whatever, and we can see if we can get a nice chunk of money.
This is bannanas (Score:2)
really not a problem (Score:5, Informative)
When you RTFA it says the proposal has been referred to the City Attorney.
So the City Attorney will write back that this is a Stupid Idea. Said idea is circular filed and life goes on.
Cops have solved all crime... (Score:3)
So now they are working on the easy stuff. So glad robberies and murders are over with...
Oh wait....
Single guys ... (Score:2)
Works only in L.A. (Score:3)
Typical for L.A. In New York, people use the underground and taxis to drive to their extra-marital blowjobs.
Not just flirting (Score:3)
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WINSTON.SMITH.5,
Your attempts to post anonymously are a sign that you may not love Big Brother with your whole heart. Please report to MiniLove Room 101 at 8:00 AM for a refresher course.
You may bring your own caged rats, if desired. If you don't have any, rest assured we are not going spare in the caged rat department, but we cannot guarantee their cleanliness.
Big Brother loves you.
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You can make the argument that what two consenting adults do in private is THEIR business, and I'd be willing to entertain such a view if this was actually done in private. But it generally isn't. Oh sure, the actual act usually is, but the solicitation is decidedly public, at least on the few occasions when I've actually noticed such activity. So, come up with a way to keep it out of sight, and I'm prepared to leave each to their own.
However, the problem with this "activity" is that it encourages things
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It seems likely to me that the main reason for that sort of solicitati
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the solicitation is decidedly public
The solicitation is public because it is illegal, and therefore normal channels of advertising (on-line, phone book, etc.) are not available. There are jurisdictions, including Britain, where prostitution is legal [wikipedia.org], but public solicitation is not. Most transactions are arranged on-line, where it is nearly invisible to anyone who doesn't seek it out.
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However, the problem with this "activity" is that it encourages things like human trafficking, which is far from a victimless crime. I don't think a sufficiently strict regulatory structure can be built to prevent such abuse that doesn't cost a lot more than the current enforcement efforts based on current law. So I don't think your idea would really work out as well as you imagine. Girls will be trafficked and abused like they are now.
Human trafficking is market based subject to supply and demand.
If people who want to fuck for cash can go to their corner regulated, licensed brothel and buy all the sex they want there is less reason for underground unregulated markets to exist in the first place. Who is going to want to risk getting caught when the money is shit or they could open their own legitimate business?
Government is good at beating down outliers like murders and thieves but the 1920's showed us what happens when you try to beat d
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" no brothels within 400m of a school/church."
While you're at it how about making churches pay tax,
god forbid you'd want consenting sex so close to a cult that has consistently protected pedophiles.
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Why "regulated and taxed?" Why does everyone add "it should be regulated and taxed" to everything? Can you even imagine some economic activities that are simply unregulated? Should there be 2000 pages of rules and licensing boards for kids who want to make a few bucks from snow shoveling?
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Regulated to prevent child abuse, taxed to fund enforcement. And, since you equated children shoveling snow with sex you are providing the very evidence as to why such regulations and taxes are needed. Consenting and adult are the key words here.