German Customs Agents Raid Another Trade Show 139
JagsLive tips the news that German customs agents have shown up in force to raid the IFA consumer electronics show in Berlin. (The last time we discussed news like this was during CeBIT, in Hanover, last March.) 220 customs agents seized electronic gear from 69 different booths at IFA. The Register reports that this raid, like the one last spring, was touched off after complaints by patent firm Sisvel. "They seized equipment which will now be checked for evidence of patent breaches. A spokesman for German Customs told us: 'We've raided 69 companies today. We have seized equipment including flat-screen TVs, CD players, set-top boxes and MP3 players.'"
Next year, they'll do it in Belgium (Score:3, Insightful)
its absolutely appalling to see a european country axeing their own trade. and its not as if germany is a HUGE market like china or whatever.
Germany not HUGE as China? yeah right. (Score:5, Informative)
O RLY?
> http://www.countryreports.org/economy/imports.aspx?Countryname=&countryId=91
Re:Germany not HUGE as China? yeah right. (Score:4, Informative)
Germany exports as much (about) as the whole EU (Score:1, Interesting)
What is more surprising is that Germany exports as much (about) as the whole EU.
This is the problem with the double standard EU countries get to play. They get to stand alone in one set of statistics and then stand together in another set of statistics.
Re:Next year, they'll do it in Belgium (Score:4, Insightful)
Basically it says nothing about validity of the claims, anyone can make the customs raid some companies. In fact when the same company went after Sandisk at a trade fair the troll utterly failed but the public damage to sandisk was done.
It is an Italian patent troll. The way to solve the patent problem is via the political level. Germany is the heart of European patent culture. There is a new campaign Softsoftwarepatents.org [stopsoftwarepatents.org]
Trolls want to scare you. The whole software patent system is a mess and its time that industry steps up to fight back. Patents are useless and dangerous in software.
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Guess what: Germany is one of - if not THE - largest exporter in the world.
Even much stuff from China in fact belongs to German firms.
Get some perspective!
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It is also the second largest importer (behind the US.
And with a savings rate of nearly 10% (8% I believe, compared to the US -.25%) it also has a very strong long-term economic outlook (Savings + Technology fuel future economic growth).
please (Score:2)
exporting doesnt mean zit. market size is important for having a clout. germany is a small market, doesnt have the clout many expanding markets (china, russia and the like) have in international trade.
Shooting themselves in the foot. (Score:2)
Amen, Brother/Sister.
With the sometimes horrid quality of products sold, it is almost impossible for the average consumer to validate the authenticity of any given product.
If I need to be concerned that if I purchase a product, then resell it at some point in the future, that I may be held liable for that, criminally AND civilly, simply because I cannot not tell whether or not I bought an original/authorized version, then I am NOT going to purchase the product at all.
This is simply telling me that the simpl
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There used to be "fair trade" laws in the US making it illegal to sell below "list price."
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The same were used against the Japanese or at least attempted to be when they were selling mini-vans so cheaply.
Re:Just Germans being Germans (Score:5, Funny)
Isn't it kept on the books and still enforced (against mostly Turks and other minorities running little stores in minority neighborhoods) simply because it is the German Law and German Law must be obeyed regardless of how mean and stupid and senseless it is?
Yes, there is a fixed price on (new) books. But it has absolutely nothing to do with minorities. The fixed price was introduced to protect small bookstores/coffeshops, some of which also promoted local literature and culture against soulless discounters/pricedumpers like walmart. That worked actually pretty well until internet bookstore like amazon came up.
tl;dr: Godwins law - you lost.
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I'm willing to bet there's some hefty duties and bullshit stores have to go through to get those foreign books into Germany.
I doubt it. I also don't really think that English language books are generally much more expensive than German ones. It surely depends much more on the volume of sale (best sellers are cheaper than "exotic" books), and there might be larger differences between big shops (especially Amazon) and smaller ones. Difference that naturally do not exist for German books, since they are sold everywhere for the same price.
Just a random example: Ken Follett "Triple" as Paperback
amazon.de: 5.45 Euro -> $7.49 (that'
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Amazon flipped the whole sitution round. Back when the only option was to go to a big bookstore and hope to find something in the "foreign books" section, the stores would like to charge twice the price or more, they just knew you'd be appy if you found what you were looking for.
As for duties it doesn't really apply to good ol books. I believe there is no duty on importing books to europe, but I can't be assed to back this up. And even if there were, they could buy the UK edition and avoid customs completel
Re:Just Germans being Germans (Score:4, Informative)
Danke fuer diesen Augenoeffner!
Thanks for opening my eyes.
I have no idea if are just being sarcastic or an absolute dumbass.
The truth is, the law to contol the sales (Gesetz gegen den unlauteren Wettbewerb) is from 1909 (and that's _before_ Hitler, in case you didn't know) and the current regulation is from 1950 (that's _after_ Hitler), so it seems Hitler had some time travellers to aid in his fight against the jews leaving the country.
Re:Just Germans being Germans (Score:4, Funny)
so it seems Hitler had some time travellers to aid in his fight against the jews leaving the country.
Oblig:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057701/ [imdb.com]
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Come on! Isn't obvious? Why can't German Law Enforcement buy their home entertainment systems like everyone else for the next Euro Cup [uefa.com]?
Re:Just Germans being Germans (Score:5, Informative)
Wow, what a troll. Just some corrections so that people don't misunderstand this persons "claims"...
Isn't Germany the place where it is illegal for stores to put items on sale, except for a few days each year?
No. It was until a couple of years ago. There was a law about seasonal sales (concerning seasonal items like eg summer/winter clothes) which were only allowed to be put on sale. That law (introduced 1909) was abolished 2004. There was a law limiting how rebates could be given - indeed from 1933. That was abolished 2001.
Wasn't this law passed by Hitler (opps, my bad...can't say that word in Deutschland)
There is nothing to stop you from that.
because Jewish store owners were selling their inventory below cost in order to get the funds together to escape the holocast?
Since it was apparently introduced in 1933, that is quite unlikely.
Isn't it kept on the books
If you mean laws governing the pricing of books: yes
still enforced (against mostly Turks and other minorities running little stores in minority neighborhoods) simply because it is the German Law and German Law must be obeyed regardless of how mean and stupid and senseless it is?
Laws are often enforced in Germany, yes. But the examples you mention (apart from book pricing) are no laws anymore. The laws were enforced against any kind of shops. It was mostly small shop owners who complained about abolishing the rebate law, since they felt that this would put them in disadvantage against the big chains.
Good thing too that the Soviets and the Americans burned the whole country to the ground, killed millions of them, and chased the few good Germans (oh, excuse me, I meant to say 'the Nazis') to the ends of the earth. Otherwise they would still be throwing Jews, Gipsies, and homos into the gas chambers. After all, the law is the law, and it must be obeyed!
Strange you hate Nazis so much, since your mindset is so similar...
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There was a law about seasonal sales (concerning seasonal items like eg summer/winter clothes) which were only allowed to be put on sale
"... during certain weeks" I meant to say.
Re:Just Germans being Germans (Score:4, Funny)
6-hit Internet pwnage combo with a roman cancel. GG
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This is just Germans being German, but still it is incredibly stupid.
The US used to have the same laws. You know, back when the US economy was still doing well, the US didn't have a trade imbalance, and the future looked fairly bright.
Good thing too that the Soviets and the Americans burned the whole country to the ground, killed millions of them, and chased the few good
Thanks for outing yourself as a racist and a fascist.
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Otherwise they would still be throwing Jews, Gipsies, and homos into the gas chambers. After all, the law is the law, and it must be obeyed!
Nice use of slurs yourself there. I realize this is flameBAIT but i just want to point out how much you have in common with those you hate. Hate begets hate, whatever nationalism or racism leads you to hating German people is the same thing that lead to the atrocities of a short period of German history.
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Most countries regulate sales. Walmarts & Borders drive out traditional stores if you don't. Even those Turkish shops are costing traditional business considerably.
I'm not sure why they are raiding trade shows, but maybe the cops are just enforcing the laws U.S. companies bought? If that is the case, great!
Pfft. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Second, as TFA happily drops somewhere between the lines, we don't actually know yet whether the hardware was seized due to alleged patent infringement or allegatio
Re:Pfft. (Score:5, Insightful)
I would be hard pressed to find anything bad about this.
Nothing wrong with employees working booths at trade shows being terrorized by armed thugs?
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Actually it makes sense to do this on a trade show, as it is direct proof that the manufacturer (and not some trader/importer) is infringing on rights. The real issue (for me at least) is not how it was done, but that there are patents for trivial stuff to begin with. ...
However, it would be interesting to see, if the german authorities would follow a case of open source license infringement with the same vigor. Maybe one should take a look around for "candidates" on current trade shows
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http://news.cnet.com/2100-7344-5198117.html [cnet.com]
Germany is pretty forward on these issues actually...
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Huh, that's exactly the way I feel every time I go through US customs.
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Get a perspective dude! The parent is right. These are German Customs Officers. They are not haphazard security people. In Germany unlike many places when it comes to border issues it is the German Customs Officers that manages it even though it might be miles away from a border.
They are only doing their jobs and enforcing the rules such as patents, copyrights and trademarks.
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And more to the point: When can customs authorities take action? [www.zoll.de]
Celebration. (Score:5, Funny)
"They seized equipment which will now be checked for evidence of patent breaches. A spokesman for German Customs told us: 'We've raided 69 companies today. We have seized equipment including flat-screen TVs, CD players, set-top boxes and MP3 players.'"
Now all they need is lots of beer and an upcoming holiday.
Bad timing (Score:3, Informative)
Summer holidays just ended this very weekend in Berlin area.
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Oktoberfest is celebrated in September. I think they occasionaly indulge in a beer or two there.
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Re:Celebration. (Score:4, Interesting)
It is Sisvel, an Italian "patent troll". A show for which the customs are part of the I scare you game.
The burden of proof? (Score:5, Interesting)
Who has the burden of proof to prove that patents were infringed? Shouldn't Sisvel have to provide evidence that these 69 companies are infringing on patents? Do German custom agents have to secure warrants to seize property? While not the U.S., I cannot believe that Germans would willingly stand for the police taking whatever property they believe could be stolen or based off another's design.
Also, would 69 different companies all choose Sisvel's products to infringe? I've never even heard of Sisvel!
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Follow the money. The company clearly bribes^W lobbies the right political or two that influences the police. Work up the chain of command and you'll see who is doing this. Examine their "support" and you'll learn why this is happening.
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Sisvel is a patent troll. Yes, they must have their own connections, but ironically they are using laws bought by American companies.
Re:The burden of proof? (Score:5, Informative)
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patent's seems to include things like CDMA2000, DVB-T and something about DRM.
Cool, all stuff I don't want for a change. Troll on! (And my apologies to my European friends, who may actually want DVB-T.)
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"Do German custom agents have to secure warrants to seize property?"
Yes, they do.
And they've obtained such warrants before raiding the fair.
At least that's what I've read in serveral media and papers here in Germany this weekend.
Re:The burden of proof? (Score:4, Informative)
Last time around (2007), they
"filed claims of patent infringement" ... "in The Netherlands, Germany, and the United Kingdom" ... "seeking an injunction and damages." long before any products were seized.
SISVEL is more or less a spin-off formed from Philip's patent-licensing arm.
Have you heard of Philips? Because, you know, they invented a lot of stuff... including MPEG audio... used in DVB decoders, MP3 player, etc.
Since then, they've secured the rights to patents from several other companies as well, forming a patent pool, much like MPEG-LA, Audio MPEG, or VIA Licensing.
In the US we know SISVEL as "Audio MPEG, Inc."
Re:The burden of proof? (Score:5, Interesting)
Patent firm also known in popular circles as "troll", a term coined by Intel. It means a company without a product with a patent portfolio that goes after companies in the market and enforces its patents.
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What about if they're found innocent? (Score:5, Insightful)
Will Sisvel be held responsible if their claims are found groundless?
From the listing of devices seized, they must be spreading their patent claims pretty wide.
Either that or it has something to do in common with all those devices - maybe remote control?
Re:What about if they're found innocent? (Score:5, Funny)
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That's absurd! If that were the case the police would be at my doorstep in an instant.
Oh, wait a sec, the doorbell's ringing.
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Electric Doorbell? Baaaad Idea!
Patent stuff... (Score:2)
Yeah, it seems to be pretty strange.
Besides remote control tech, some sort of new take, perhaps. Maybe LCD display tech, or some technique in there? MP3 players, set top boxes, monitors? Maybe a tuner?
Re:Patent stuff... (Score:5, Informative)
No. The LCDs and monitors, etc. are all an old patent related to onscreen volume display--you know, the bar graph?--licensed by most German TV manufacturers. SISvEl's latest "patent" has something to do with mp3's, though apparently not much. They pick on the wrong big company and they are going to get swatted like a fly.
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The LCDs and monitors, etc. are all an old patent related to onscreen volume display--you know, the bar graph?
I know LCD panels are oldtech, but I was figuring it might have to do with some twist on it, after all, there are multiple types of LCD panel. I've heard possibilities for MP3, encryption, etc...
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good thing all my household appliances run on prayers.
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It could be something encryption/DRM related.
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> Either that or it has something to do in common with all those devices - maybe remote control?
I guess the commonality is MP3: the German Fraunhofer Institute would like to collect it's licensing money: hence the help from German customs.
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> Nope, it's an entirely different company and patent. I'm guessing all the MP3 players already have licenses for the Fraunhofer patent - they usually do.
AFAIK there are multiple beneficiaries of MP3 licensing fees: I highlighted the German Fraunhofer Institute as just one of them.
To which patent are you referring ? I can not see one in the article.
I also just checked http://www.heise-online.co.uk/news/German-Customs-cracks-down-at-IFA--/111434 [heise-online.co.uk] (English) and http://www.heise.de/newsticker/Zoll-auf-Beschl [heise.de]
I'm glad that the agents were armed... (Score:4, Interesting)
You know how quickly someone can pull a gun at a trade show...
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FOSS Codecs (Score:1)
Way to go! (Score:5, Insightful)
Tit for tat (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Tit for tat (Score:4, Interesting)
First of all, Sisvel is an ITALIAN company. That's Società Italiana per lo Sviluppo dell'Elettronica. "In fact Sisvel initiated its activity of granting licenses for the use of its patents back in 1986, the first licensees were all the major German television manufactures, and namely: Telefunken, Saba, Nordmende, Philips, ITT, Grundig, Loewe-Opta, Metz, etc." So, basically, the Germans' stake in this is that they have bought into the Sisvel patent scheme and are trying to prevent others from beating them on price by not paying the same licensing fees to the Italian bandits. Kind of reminds you of how the Mafia does business. And for the future?: "Apart from the rights bestowed with its industrial property, a further important patrimony of Sisvel is that represented by the know-how acquired concerning the more efficient and practical channels for economically exploiting industrial property rights. Through the calculated utilisation of this know-how it is quite possible to imagine a development of the company's activities in sectors being different from that of consumer electronics, which up to the present has been the sole sector within which Sisvel has operated." This sounds suspiciously like a machine translation--"a further important patrimony"?--but its clear these characters intend to use their patent income to further enlarge their sphere of operations. Keep your heads down guys. The Axis Powers are on the march again, this time right up your ass!
might be enough to do something (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not holding my breath, but the deterrent effect on German business competitiveness something like this can have might be enough to get politicians talking about what's wrong with their patent laws, or at least patent enforcement.
The PR war over patents has always been promoting innovation versus stifling it, with most business lobbyists lining up on the "they're good" side. In this particular case, though, the sides lined up are basically Sisvel versus everyone else, which may lead to some pro-reform lo
I'm not sure... (Score:1)
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"Regardless if the claims hold merit, there is only one direction the shit will flow. People will quit reserving booths for these shows. Manufacturers will go outside of Germany."
These raids at German fairs have been happening for several years now, and still CeBit und IFA are going quite well.
So it seems you're predictions are incorrect.
World Cup (Score:3, Funny)
flat-screen TVs, CD players, set-top boxes and MP3 players
In other news, a world cup qualifier game has just been rescheduled for Mainz, Germany [google.com]. No doubt the stolen gear will require further examination.
Sisvel patents (Score:5, Informative)
Afaik Sisvel is responsible for collecting the money on Mpeg Patents ... so pretty much everything using DVB-T without paying them fees is considered illegal. ... in the past Sisvel made its money in collecting fees for the volume bar used in all modern TVs. So you can clearly call them a patent troll.
Re:Sisvel patents (Score:4, Insightful)
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Patents are neither for "ideas" nor for "implementations of ideas". Patents are for what patent law says they are for, and that can't be summed up in a couple of words.
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bullshit (Score:2)
Patents are granted on inventions, not ideas, not implementations of ideas.
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German Craigslist Ad (Score:1, Funny)
Cutting edge electronics, cheap! Look for van parked behind Customs Office. Prices marked on the bottom side of evidence tags. This sale comes around only once a year so don't miss out!
They just need upgrades and they have 0 funding fo (Score:2)
They just need upgrades and they have 0 funding for them so they need to do this.
An even hand (Score:2, Interesting)
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Make them.
In other words: make the holder of the OS Trademarks/Rights/whatever file a complaint and they'll have to. But probably the OS-Community is too good tempered to preassure officials hard enough to start a full blown police raid in sight of lots of potential costumers. (whic I usually consider a good thing.)
Here's an idea (Score:5, Interesting)
Don't hold the trade show there next year. Don't reward stupidity by continuing to patronize them.
And, yes, I realize as an American saying that I'm inviting the same reaction to our thuggish behavior.
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This aphorism comes to mind: (Score:5, Funny)
Re:This aphorism comes to mind: (Score:5, Funny)
Hell is where the Chefs are American, the mechanics are American, the lovers are American, the Police are American and it's all organised by the Americans."
(Score:-1, Troll)
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Canada had the opportunity to take the best of many nations: French food, British culture and American entertainment.
Instead, they wound up with British food, American culture, and French entertainment.
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Wow, if French entertainment is even worse than ours, it must be truly something awful :p
CD Players? Really? (Score:2)
Why?
If it is a CD player, what harm could it really do? Are they CD players that they suspect were made to play counterfeit playstation games or something? I'm not familiar with this "sisvel" company - how could they hold patents on CD players?
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Does the CD player play mp3 files? Some do. If they do, then, in the estimation of the Axis Powers (Italians and Germans), they need a license from Società Italiana per lo Sviluppo dell'Elettronica. By the way, damnedest acronym I've ever seen: Soc...Ital...SVilu...ELett.... These are the kinds of perturbations folks normally go through to get an acronym that actually means something! Why not just call it SISE?
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SISE was already trademarked?
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Don't see much in the way of SISEes on the internet. Actually, they could have called it SISEL, which does mean something, though not related to their business, unless you picture them tying up the manufacturers and beating them with rubber hoses.
At it Again (Score:5, Interesting)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/5312696.stm [bbc.co.uk]
One can only guess what he means by 'the standard' and 'not possible to do it any other way', but then, Sisvel's ability to collect money for this depends on those illusions being true.
Stupid! (Score:2, Insightful)
They seized equipment which will now be checked for evidence of patent breaches. A spokesman for German Customs told us: 'We've raided 69 companies today. We have seized equipment including flat-screen TVs, CD players, set-top boxes and MP3 players.
They could have simply and politely bought these products (under the archaic theory that the makers are innocent until proven guilty) and tested them for patent breaches. If patent breaches are discovered then you wait for the next trade show and with your warrant or summons in hand you charge your perpetrator.
Seriously, what is with all this capitalist-driven use of armed policemen to enforce fucking intellectual property laws? This is all business stuff. You find someone breaks your patent you sue them an
220 customs agents seized electronic gear .. (Score:2)
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Christ almighty, maybe it is time for the Americans to start bombing....
Not Germany itself, just the next corporate wide Sisvel barbeque/picnic/whatever.
Re:First the Russians, now the Germans... (Score:4, Insightful)
Christ almighty, maybe it is time for the Americans to start bombing....
Where do you think this patent shit is coming from? It's coming from the US.
When the US patent system gets cleaned up, then the Europeans will follow.
Of course, bad as things are in Europe, European patent examiners are still considerably more responsible than US ones.
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It's a joke, get over it.
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Not modpoints, mod*bombs*.
WE'RE NOT MODDING YOU DOWN, WE'RE LIBERATING YOU!
(Filter error: Don't use so many caps. Slashdot can't handle that amount of PURE AWESOME.)