CA Violent Games Bill Moves Forward 106
Reuters is reporting that the California bill banning the sale of violent video games to minors has made it out of committee. The law passed review by a 6-4 vote, and now goes on to the full Assembly. If it succeeds there it still needs to pass in the State Senate. From the article: "Game developers and console makers say laws restricting game sales are unnecessary because their industry is doing a good job stopping minors from buying "Mature"-rated games. However, the $10 billion industry expects bills restricting game sales to pass this year in Illinois, Michigan and North Carolina."
Aside from kneejerk reactions... (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay, so we're supposed to hate this kind of bill here. Fine. However, regardless of the merit of this bill itself, I like that states can decide this for themselves. It's better than Washington resolving the issue for everyone at once.
Re:Aside from kneejerk reactions... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Aside from kneejerk reactions... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Aside from kneejerk reactions... (Score:2)
Maybe YOU can. I, on the other hand, would have to change careers.
Re:Aside from kneejerk reactions... (Score:1)
Re:Aside from kneejerk reactions... (Score:2)
Animator for 3D movies.
"Surely they have some more of your professional peers in other parts of the country..?"
My choices are limited and I would seriously risk living too long on unemployment. I've already found this out the hard way.
Re:Aside from kneejerk reactions... (Score:1)
An animator, cool. Yeah, I can see how that would be a rather restrictive job space..
Re:Aside from kneejerk reactions... (Score:2)
Yeah... you almost have to be in close orbit to LA. Hehe.
Try http://www.nanogator.com/gallery [nanogator.com]. If that doesn't work, try this [scifi-meshes.com]. If those are blocked... err.. sorry!
Re:Aside from kneejerk reactions... (Score:1)
Re:Aside from kneejerk reactions... (Score:1)
Have a good weekend.
Re:Aside from kneejerk reactions... (Score:2)
Go ahead, let me have it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Go ahead, let me have it. (Score:4, Insightful)
Now, I assume that the parents that ask are the minority (Perhaps incorrectly, perhaps not). For each one of them, how many parents are out there that are perfectly willing to pick up a new hot game for their kid without checking the ratings or reviews?
Re:Go ahead, let me have it. (Score:1)
Re:Go ahead, let me have it. (Score:2, Interesting)
They buy the game because they can, and play it when you're not home?
Re:Go ahead, let me have it. (Score:2)
This is all irrelevant anyway; theaters voluntarily restrict R-rated movies from minors, so why can't retailers voluntarily restrict M-rated games from minors?
Rob
Re:Go ahead, let me have it. (Score:1)
Doesn't matter (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Doesn't matter (Score:2, Insightful)
How about you accept that just being older than somebody doesn't automatically make you their superior.
Re:Doesn't matter (Score:2)
Re:Doesn't matter (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Doesn't matter (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it does. To a degree. In some sense.
Well, it's actually a side effect of being older: it's called life experience. Everyone needs to do some things wrong, do some things right, and have a whole lot of living to do before they really grow up and can make responsible decisions. It's not that younger people are dumb, it's just that usually they haven't lived with the consequences of their actions for long enough to consistantly Do The Right Thing.
Of couse, this varies widely person-person. Some people are smarter/wiser at 20 than their parents will ever be. However, I've never met someone who was smarter/wiser at 20 than they were at 30.
Honestly, if I ran into myself from when I was 17-18, I would just want to beat the living shit out of myself for treating people the way that I did back then.
Yeah, I hate teenage smartasses because they vividly remind me of what a jerk I once was.
-sigh-
m-
Re:Doesn't matter (Score:2)
Telling a child "no" is a lesson. (Score:2)
Telling a child "no" is a lesson. It's something they need to become accustomed to without throwing a tantrum or otherwise behaving childishly.
Re:Doesn't matter (Score:2)
No, not at all. Falling down and getting boo-boos is part of life. Being overprotective can be pretty damaging.
However, this isn't to say that you shouldn't be protective at all, until they are old enough to handle whatever it is and make responsible decisions. You don't give a gun to a 10-year old boy and tell him to go play in the yard: he has to be taught that it isn't a toy. You don't let a 14 year-old girl
Re:Doesn't matter (Score:2)
Re:Doesn't matter (Score:1)
who the hell would I send to get my smokes and gin?
Sigh... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sigh... (Score:4, Informative)
Movies & TV shows have ratings, why not video games? Why do video games deserve some special hands-off treatment?
The movie ratings are set and policed by the industry and have been successful for the most part (I'm sure many of you disagree).
Video game companies do a really half-hearted job at setting & policing ratings, as evidenced by the number of minors who purchase the mature games (I'm not even talking about minors who have parents who buy the games for them, I'm talking about the minors). The government gave the industry a chance, and the industry has failed miserably.
Re:Sigh... (Score:1)
No. But vendors, for the most part, refrain from doing it voluntarily.
"Why should it be illegal to sell a rated-M game to a minor?"
Well, that depends. If you don't want minors to buy rated-M games, you should make it illegal, because vendors, for the most part, do not refrain from doing it voluntarily.
Re:Sigh... (Score:3)
Last time I checked, most video games do have ratings: E for Everyone, T for Teen, M for Mature, AO for Adults Only.
Video game companies do a really half-hearted job at setting & policing ratings, as evidenced by the number of minors who purchase the mature games (I'm not even talking about minors who have parents who buy the games for them, I'm talking about the minors). The governme
Re:Sigh... (Score:1)
Yet the government themselves are also setting a bad example, especially with the war going on in Iraq.
On the other hand, the government keeps on repealing these
Re:Sigh... (Score:2)
It's been said many times before,
Yes, MANY times.
*ducks for redundant mod!*
Parentls currently excluded from process (Score:2)
This legislation is a tool for good parenting, it brings the parent into the equation. Currently they are excluded and not able to offer a parental judgement at the time of purchase.
Your argument is misapplied. It might be valid if minors were prohibited from *playing* some games, but that's not the case.
Re:Parentls currently excluded from process (Score:3, Insightful)
The logical conclusion to this rationale is that children shouldn't be able to buy anything.
There's a difference between good parenting and pointless totalitarianism.
Rob
Re:Parentls currently excluded from process (Score:2)
The logical conclusion to this rationale is that children shouldn't be able to buy anything.
No, that is an extreme misapplication of this rationale.
There's a difference between good parenting and pointless totalitarianism.
As there is a difference between a good rebuttal and a red herring.
Depends on the state (Score:4, Insightful)
Hmmm. I'm wondering how each state will implement the "mature" rating.
Violence?
Violence with blood?
boobies?
children dying?
santanic symbolism?
guns?
killing of living things?
WHATEVER! People have to realize it's a COMPUTER. I mean, primetime TV has all of these things and it's depicted by live-action, but still acting.
Then you just open the newspaper/newsite and there's plenty of violent/sex-laden/anti-christian/gun-toting news for everyone. Are we labelling news of the Iraq war unfit for children now?
What is the issue here? (Score:5, Insightful)
GTA: Vice City has an R18 rating here. Fair enough, its an adults game, not a kids game.
Why are the publishers against this law? I would have thought it would have given them some protection: When some idiot kid shoots someone, and hoards of drooling ambulance-chasing lawyers start scream "GTA trained them to be killers! Rockstar are responsible!! they must PAY!!!" Then the publisher can turn around and say what were they doing playing the game in the first place?
I played Vice City right though, and loved it, but I certainly wouldn't want my kids playing it, and I'm not too comfortable with someone elses kids playing it either.
It seems perfectly straightfoward to me.
Re:What is the issue here? (Score:2)
I wonder about this too.
"Voluntary" age limits are a good start, and something to help the parents. But I'll bet there's some stupid store clerk here and there that will sell anything to minors to be "cool", because (s)he thinks the age limits are stuid, or becuase it's more revenue. OMG, earn $$$$ fast!
Perhaps a state law will make those people abide by the rules.
Of course the kids will keep trying, though.. Just as they're after alcohol, tobacco, firearms, heroin
Re:What is the issue here? (Score:5, Interesting)
And I believe that if things are designated the equivalent of 'M'/'X' then there are many places that will/can not sell the item in the first place.
Three are three main problems with this.
1) The parents should be deciding what is appropriate for their children, not a political process
2) The political committee will be susceptible to creep of what is not allowed. If the industry is lucky, then the definitions will be clear what is allowed and what is not. If not, they'll have to 'guess' what to leave out to get a 'PG13' or whatever rating the developer/publisher desires.
3) The developer having to censor the content of a game to 'make' a rating is not a good thing. It means that the play of the game will be determined by the lowest common (political) denominator and not by the market choice of the people buying and playing the game.
The IGDA's Censorship advocacy group has a lot of good information on the censorship problems the industry is facing. http://www.igda.org/censorship/ [igda.org]
Re:What is the issue here? (Score:1)
With response 2, you've proven my argument, that developers don't want sales channel restrictions due to the "pornography" label.
And, 3 is a bogus argument. No one is talking about making developers do anything. They can still make 'M' rated games. But, they probably won't get the wide distribution they feast on now (with a great deal of the sales being minors who shouldn't have it in the first place). In fact, if they could make a 'E' rated gardening game that had $200,000,000 in sales, we probably wouldn
Re:What is the issue here? (Score:2)
Mistaken assumption. More than 2/3 of gamers are over 18.
Re:What is the issue here? (Score:1)
Re:What is the issue here? (Score:2)
I don't know what percentage remaining is M rated games, but M has traditionally been one of the lower sellers. Sounds like they're doing a better job than the movie industry.
Re:What is the issue here? (Score:1)
They seem to have sold quite well.
Re:What is the issue here? (Score:1)
Re:What is the issue here? (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, it's quite simple actually...
Game publishers don't want laws like this because once some games are deemed to be pornagraphic (either by sex or excessive violence) then it makes it harder to sell. The "Target"s, "Wal-Mart"s and "Toy 'R' Us"s of the world won't sell that type of material. Thus, the game distribution channel shrinks drastically
I'm in favor of the laws. It's illegal for a minor to purchase "Hustler" and illegal for an adult to give it to a minor. Freedom of speech is not restricted because it can still be sold to the audience that it is legally intended for. And, furthermore, it's content isn't edited.
Game companies police themselves but not the sales channel. It's standard doublespeak. There's no interest in restricting the distribution on their part. They want the money. Period.
Re:What is the issue here? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What is the issue here? (Score:2)
You lost me when you compared video games to hardcore pornography. Anyway, I'm not in favor of the laws, for any number of reasons.
1) The "it's just a video game" argument, that's been done to death and I'm not going to waste the time.
2) It makes yet another currently legal thing illegal. In general, I don't like when this happens, even for just a certain class of people.
3) It establ
Re:What is the issue here? (Score:1)
Meth cookers will just go and rob a warehouse instead of shoplifting from the corner store. Meanwhile, law-abiding people who get a cold are inconvenienced.
I live around a lot of "junkies" in Philadelphia. They are forever stealing this stuff off of shelves to supply cookers for money. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Re:What is the issue here? (Score:1)
Of course freedom of speech - more accurately, of the press - is restricted by such laws. Saying "you can't sell your publication to X", for any given X, is by definition a abridgement of the freedom of the press.
Please note I'm not saying you should give your kids Hustler. I'm saying it's not
Re:What is the issue here? (Score:1)
I'm not saying the recipient is the criminal. The seller is the criminal. Stop twisting the argument to make your view sound more correct. By your logic, it's ok to sell cigarettes or alcohol to a minor too.
And on the brother giving a peek... It is still a criminal act. Your just futzing with the
Re:What is the issue here? (Score:1)
I'm not twisting anything - my arguement sounds correct because, well, it is correct. :-)
Yes. Age limits on obtaining alcohol have served only to increase binge drinking amoung teens. Certainly it's insane that a 18-year-old can marry or join the military - even be convicted of capital murder - but can't legally have a beer. Many nations have lower, or no, minimu [potsdam.edu]
Re:What is the issue here? (Score:1)
Hmmm... I just noticed that you chose to reinforce your argument with your examples but skirted around my rebuttal examples that refute you. Now your the one who's being selective!
Re:What is the issue here? (Score:4, Interesting)
Eventually, movies and games will be rated "G" for "Good Christian Audiences" and "H" for "You are all going to Hell! HELL!", and most stores will only carry the G-rated titles to keep the fundies from raising a stink.
Also, if you think fundies will stop once they have minors banned from buying the mature games, you're wrong. [cbldf.org] Even if its marked not for children, even if people are carded just to walk into the same room as it, SOME fundie is going to get their panties in a knot over its existance and start throwing a lawyer-tantrum.
Re:What is the issue here? (Score:1)
Re:What is the issue here? (Score:1)
I mean, I was 8 when my dad would rent me R-rated horror movies, and I played any video game I wanted (granted they weren't realtistic).
I was mature enough in that respect* to watch them... I didn't get nightmares, and I knew the blood/gore was only hollywood magic. My parents never minded if I saw the odd boob/bum either... altho I don' think they'd approve of pornography,
While I agree 8 is a bit young. I think it just matters on your kid... I mean, maturity is not eq
$$$ & my thoughts (Score:3, Insightful)
Mowing lawns, babysitting, and selling lemonade you could earn enough, but still parental authority, rules, and such should be enough The kid spends money without asking parents on something they might embargo, parents confiscate contraband video game then the kids are out 50 bucks and have learned their lesson, simple as that.
Simple concept, I don't think I did a very good job of articulating it.
Yeah, they're stopping minors already. (Score:5, Insightful)
That's why there's a ton of young teens (and sometimes younger) flocking to their nearest electronics store whenever a new GTA game comes out. The gaming industry is doing a pitiful job stopping minors from purchasing "Mature"-related games. Maybe these game developers and console makers should trot out some real arguments like "We're not in the business of parenting." instead of shelling out bold-faced lies like "We're already stopping kids from getting Mature games."
Re: Yeah, they're stopping minors already. (Score:1)
Seriously, it's not a problem. They are stopping minors. Toys R' Us ALWAYS asks you for ID when you buy an M-rated game (they did when I bought Resident Evil 4) and won't sell them to minors. I'm pretty sure Best Buy does as well. Since that's a big chunk of business right there, that leaves stealing mom's credit card and ordering online.
Teach the children. (Score:2)
And we should burn the books that also teach kids these horrible things. Movies, music, in fact we should even allow t
Re:Teach the children. (Score:1)
Yeah, like anyone could get through Endorfun [mobygames.com] or Catechumen [mobygames.com] without being on SOMETHING.
MOD PARENT UP! (Insightful) (Score:2)
Finally someone who realizes that it's the status quo who forces poor people to become women abusers and join street gangs.
Re:game developers support this ... kind of (Score:4, Informative)
The details are laid right out on the packaging.
For your examples, God of War says Blood and Gore,Intense Violence,Nudity,Sexual Themes Strong Language and Manhunt says Blood and Gore,Intense Violence,Strong Language. How do you get much plainer than that?
Re:game developers support this ... kind of (Score:1)
That doesn't matter if the parents can't read or choose not to read.
Re:game developers support this ... kind of (Score:2)
Re:game developers support this ... kind of (Score:2)
Draconian? Yes. But while we live in a society where games developers are regularly blamed/sued/lynched because some poorly parented kid committed a crime, we need something to help point the finger of guilt back to where it belongs.
Re:game developers support this ... kind of (Score:2)
There are studies that point to the deletrious effects of alcohol.
All of the metastudies of games show little to no effect. I belive it's somewhere on the order of 11th of "bad things" list in a recent study, number one being bad parents, IIRC.
Also consider, there are *NO* laws restricting sales of R rated movies, the equivalent to M games.
Re:game developers support this ... kind of (Score:2)
I know that there is very little evidence of adult rated games being harmful to children - it's just common sense reinforced by plenty of studies.
What I was saying, is that if it is illegal for a minor to buy x, then surely it should also be illegal for an adult to buy x for the minor. We see plenty of news stories where a particular game is being blamed for the actions of a child rather than the buck stopping at the people responsible for his or her upbringing
Re:game developers support this ... kind of (Score:1)
Government can only control media when there is a clear and present reason. There are none for this.
Not going to have an effect... (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem of young kids playing games not suitable for them lies not with the retailers or publishers. The problem lies with parents not caring if their children play violent games. Most kids won't be terribly affected by playing a game like GTA: San Andreas when they're only 11 or 12. But some will. Those who would be affected by it are likely to have been raised in an environment that would encourage the sort of behavior shown in these games anyway.
I am disgusted when parents buy M-rated games for their kids when they are plainly still in elementary school. I see it happen, and I always do my best to make sure that the parents understand how violent/bloody/sexual a game is. The most common response? "Oh, he's already played it with his brother/friend/etc."
Whatever (Score:2)
ferrets (Score:2)
When the revolution comes, it will consist of me breaking various people's noses for them.
Re:ferrets (Score:1)
good. (Score:1)
Shakin' the Money Maker (Score:2)
I live in Maryland and I'm sure we'
Good job? (Score:2)
Yeah right... just let uncle Bob who's 18 buy them and let the kids play it.
Dawn of War vs. House of Wax (Score:3, Interesting)
When a teenager goes to buy Saw, he doesn't have to worry that the 'Walmart' version is changed as the Walmart version of the computer game Sacrifice was so it would get a "Teen" rating. (Maybe they prevent him from buying Saw, I can't be 100% sure.) So, goofy RTS from Shiny with red pixels, required to be censored by Walmart, gruesome story about the depths of human depravity, sold unaltered.
The truth is video games have been hammered ever since Nintendo decided to draw Senator Joseph Lieberman's attention to violent games produced by rival SEGA. They are not treated the same as any other media, and I have no doubt that "concerned parents" have inflated the ratings so people now see 'M' as equivalent of video 'X.'
I can remember all sorts of depraved things happening on TV series The Sopranos including a stripper being beaten to death by one of Tony's crew. Apparently, cartoony, unrealistic violence in games like GTA is considered far more serious.
If these laws pass, prediction, a new rating will eventually be created to cover 'M' rated games (maybe not for many years, but eventually). Either way the 'M' rating will be retired and Rockstar will put some boneheaded censorship in the next GTA so it gets a 'T' rating. The survival horror genre will disappear in the US except for imports (until society calms down enough that video games get treated like movies.).