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The Courts Government Microsoft News

Storm Brewing over Microsoft on the Horizon? 310

Posted by CmdrTaco from the well-thats-not-exactly-new dept.
SexyFingers writes "Robert X. Cringely, of I, Cringely discusses one of the last anti-trust lawsuit beleaguering Microsoft. It seems like Microsoft is looking bad on these bouts... words like, lie, dissemble, ignores were applied to Microsoft."
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Storm Brewing over Microsoft on the Horizon? More

Storm Brewing over Microsoft on the Horizon?

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  • Nothing will change. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 10, 2004 @11:37AM (#10486071)
    They'll worm their way out of it somehow, and after any publicity this generates dies down, they'll go right back to viciously fucking competitors, customers and business partners alike.

    • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Sunday October 10, 2004 @11:54AM (#10486161)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • Re:Nothing will change. (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Cromac ( 610264 ) on Sunday October 10, 2004 @12:03PM (#10486203)
        The current version of Open Office is very competitive with MS Office for the vast majority of people. I'm sure there are some specific features used by a small percentage of people who couldn't switch away from MS Office but for what I use Office for I didn't have a problem switching, in fact being able to export documents to PDF from Open Office was a major plus that MS Office can't currently do.

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
          Comment removed based on user account deletion

          • Re:Nothing will change. (Score:5, Insightful)

            by mrbcs ( 737902 ) on Sunday October 10, 2004 @02:29PM (#10487041)
            The main problem with Microsoft is that they have also locked in the file formats. It's absurd that a closed, proprietary format should become the defacto standard. They use this to force upgrades that people don't need and keep the competition out of the marketplace. Yes Adobe has pdf, but many programs can also make pdf files. The .doc and .xls should have been made open in the DOJ trials. They did nothing, and nothing will change until the viruses and spyware hit critical mass... then maybe people will try alternatives.
          1. being able to load .doc files, such as you might get from a neighbour or a work colleage. Yes, I know open office can usually load the text, it's just the formatting and document layout it gets wrong. My neighbour gave me a simple page to print out and I had to edit it to make it make sense.
          2. being able to copy and paste from internet explorer. This is an example of a simple operation in the computer literacy course my auntie was taking, but she couldn't do it because someone had sneaked open-office onto he
          • These are things that I've seen MS-Word get wrong too, so no doughnut.

            It's true that MS-Word does less of them, but it's also true that it will spontaneously corrupt documents from time to time (which OpenOffice will often fix), that MS-Word's HTML editing requires extensive therapy to come within hailing distance of standard, and that its autosave (in relative terms) sucks for reliability and intrusiveness.

            The advantages cut both ways, which for the price - AUD$319 (RRP, basic OEM edition) vs AUD$0 - is

      • Re:Nothing will change. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by BasilBrush ( 643681 ) on Sunday October 10, 2004 @12:22PM (#10486304)
        And as for competitors, which one, exactly makes a better operating system for x86 machines that normal human beings would want to use?

        BeOS. Except it doesn't exist any more because Microsoft abused it's monopoly to stop PC manufacturers from offering dual boot PCs. That's a cse in point.

        Who makes a better media player?

        Apple. The combination of iTunes and Quicktime.

        That *does not* mean MS stuff is grandly spectacular, it just means their competitors are more litigious than they are innovative.

        Not true. It ignores all the monopoly abuse that Microsoft indulged in to get where it is.

        Firefox is a good example of how if a competitive product is released that people actually have a good reason to use, it will be adopted, even by people without a CS degree.

        No. It's evidence that a no cost application is something that Microsoft can't cross subsidize to undercut. Opera has been better than IE for years, but costs money, or needs adware.

        Be happy with your PowerBook, as I am with my Mac. But realise that the superiority of the Mac platform hasn't stopped it from dwindling to 2% of the market. You aren't going to claim that is lack of innovation too, surely?

        • Apples mix of quicktime and itunes sadly isn't enough - VLC media player fills out and makes it a much more complete media suite.

      • Re:Nothing will change. (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Brian Kendig ( 1959 ) on Sunday October 10, 2004 @01:00PM (#10486521)
        That *does not* mean MS stuff is grandly spectacular, it just means their competitors are more litigious than they are innovative.

        How would you compete against Microsoft?

        No, really - how would you compete? Say you DO have something that's more terrifically innovative than anything Microsoft offers. And say you're an American following the American dream of trying to capitalize on a great idea and become rich, while meanwhile Microsoft has near-infinite reserves of cash and manpower and lawyers to throw against you if they see you have something which might be profitable to them.

        How do you parlay your great idea into a successful business before Microsoft copies your idea, gives it away free with Windows, and chokes off the cash coming into your company? And you get extra points if you can do this without being "litigious."

        Really - tell me - I want to know.
        • Spend some money, patent what you have, and make sure you havn't infringed on any of MicroSofts patents. This way they either have to buy your idea, get your patent revoked, or play the market against you.

          Provided you're not treading on their turf they probably wouldn't bother you until you become a threat.
      • This is a very simplistic view of the economics of monopoly. 1) Customers can't vote with their feet, choose a different product because microsoft's monopoly ensured there wouldn't be (a viable) one. 2) And as to it makes it cheaper for customers to buy a windows PC, yes it is cheaper than if the customer bought the pc + the OS at an exorbant price, but its still overpriced when bought as a bundle. (You can't assume that the standalone price is the true competitive market price) Note I'm not a standard a
      • Firefox is a good example of how if a competitive product is released that people actually have a good reason to use, it will be adopted.

        Outside of the circle of people who are techy enough to read Slashdot - how many other people are using Firefox?

        Are there any grandmothers out there who said, "Oh, I'd rather use Firefox than IE"?

        • Re:Nothing will change. (Score:5, Insightful)

          by vsprintf ( 579676 ) on Sunday October 10, 2004 @05:08PM (#10487850)

          Are there any grandmothers out there who said, "Oh, I'd rather use Firefox than IE"?

          There are some grandmothers out there who wrote programs before MicroSoft was incorporated. Yes, my mother, the grandmother of my child, knows that IE is a bad thing. Stop being so sexist and ageist. Who do you think invented the systems you're using today?

      • "it just means their competitors are more litigious than they are innovative."

        Puh-lease! Everyone knows MS's "innovations" are just rip-offs or stolen from their competitors/partners!

      • "And if their business partners are being fucked, then they should stop being partners with Microsoft."
        PR guy: "Sun is an experienced player in IT and runs no risk in cooperation with Microsoft."
        Scott McNealy: "Yes, Mr. Gates, sir, how far should I bend over?"

      • Well, if the customers are being fucked, they should stop buying MS stuff. And if their business partners are being fucked, then they should stop being partners with Microsoft. And as for competitors, . . .

        Yes, of course. The screwed customers should have stopped buying from Standard Oil. The business partners should have renounced deals with the major player in the market in the name of business ethics (ha ha). And the competitors, who complained loudly, were generally ignored by the government, then

      • Lying, cheating, and stealing have bad effects beyond the immediate MS software and hardware ecosystem. Such bad behavior is a cancer on the whole system and reduces trust levels throughout the system. In real, day to day terms, it kicks up the risk premium a fraction of a point for everybody. And how is the guy spending an extra few bucks on his mortgage in added risk going to protect himself? He can't.
    • How MS play towards the market is arguably holding back the IT sector in the USA. The american legal & patent systems are being abused by those who can afford to do so, this to kill viable competition and to keep the status quo.

      When new, better ideas are being squashed by cashed up companies with a weaker product to protect, it's time to realise that a change is needed in the way that these two main government bodies are operated.

      A few things that are notable.
      --RIAA/MPAA essentially bribing politicians

  • A married man's life (Score:5, Funny)

    by Xpilot ( 117961 ) on Sunday October 10, 2004 @11:37AM (#10486073) Homepage
    The kid is as smart as his mother and twice as smart as me.

    He just admitted that his wife is twice as smart as he is. She must read his column.

  • Bad Day (Score:3, Funny)

    by cyber_rigger ( 527103 ) on Sunday October 10, 2004 @11:37AM (#10486074) Homepage Journal
    Maybe Microsoft's mail servers were just having a bad day that day.

    • Re:Bad Day (Score:5, Funny)

      by kramer ( 19951 ) on Sunday October 10, 2004 @11:47AM (#10486133) Homepage
      You know, if they were running exchange server I can actually understand the loss of a signifigant number of e-mails.

      Who would have thought that the shitty nature of their software might actually end up being Microsoft's saving grace?

  • Isn't this illegal? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by peawee03 ( 714493 ) <mcericksNO@SPAMuiuc.edu> on Sunday October 10, 2004 @11:41AM (#10486094)

    Wouldn't normally evidence that suggests that MS is doing naughty things (manipulation of evidence, etc.) invite a DoJ probe or something to see what exactly they're up to?

    Or are actions like that limited to smaller companies that don't have the money to move to make problems "go away"?

    • Re:Isn't this illegal? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by kramer ( 19951 )
      Wouldn't normally evidence that suggests that MS is doing naughty things (manipulation of evidence, etc.) invite a DoJ probe or something to see what exactly they're up to?

      Not under this administration.
      • What a crock. It was a bunch of BS in the last administration as well. You must have your head up your ass if you think a simple "administration" is what keeps companies like MSFT from bring properly punished. It's the fact that people can be bought out with a few hundered thousand dollars or other "incentives" instead of being the upright public servants that they should be.

        • Re:Isn't this illegal? (Score:5, Informative)

          by Daniel Dvorkin ( 106857 ) * on Sunday October 10, 2004 @07:29PM (#10488696) Homepage Journal
          [sigh] The DoJ under Clinton aggressively pursued the Microsoft anti-trust case and was close to asking the courts for a breakup -- which they would almost certainly have received -- when Clinton left office. The DoJ under Bush walked away from a clear win and let Microsoft dictate the terms of a settlement that accomplished nothing. You can argue all day about corruption and corporate control of government, but in this particular case there was a clear difference between administrations, and to claim otherwise is to deny reality.

  • Smoke out the bastards (Score:5, Funny)

    by CaptainZapp ( 182233 ) * on Sunday October 10, 2004 @11:45AM (#10486119) Homepage
    Great! Finally the Justice department has all the ammunition it ever wanted.

    I'm sure that Mr. Ashcroft will haul Mr. Ballmers ass in at once and the commander in chief will withdraw 10000 troups from Iraq, for the sole purpose of surrounding the Microsof campus and arrest everybody in sight!

    All property including cash assets will be seized and distributed to education and social security, since Mr. Cheeney finally sees the wrongs of his fiduciary irresponsibilities quite drastically and sees the light.

    Mr. Ashcroft will set all steps in motion right after finishing his doobie in a white house crapper stall.

    Just wait and see; it oughta be mighty entertaining.

  • Sounds like a true story to me. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by synq ( 55040 ) on Sunday October 10, 2004 @11:53AM (#10486154) Homepage
    I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the way this article describes the actions taken by Microsoft in court were true.

    If Microsoft really 'plain lied' to the DoJ in the antitrust case, they might be 'really' convicted after all.

    • Ummm, they did. (Score:5, Informative)

      by khasim ( 1285 ) <brandioch.conner@gmail.com> on Sunday October 10, 2004 @12:49PM (#10486464)
      Recall the video tape of how bad Windows was after most of the IE functionality had been disabled? It was submitted as an actual video tape of an actual experiment.

      But somethings didn't seem right on the tape. Icons were changing between screenshots. But that's okay, because Microsoft just cut out some of the boring bits, but the tape is really a tape of an actual experiment.

      But then it turns out that the machines are completely wrong. Well, Microsoft said it was only a dramatization of an actual experiment.

      So the judge said Microsoft could do the experiment over, but that the DoJ could watch it.

      Microsoft had problems re-doing the experiment because the Microsoft engineers could not get a reliable Internet connection from the hotel room.

      So, the judge finds Microsoft guilty and a monopoly, appeals, etc, new administration, case dropped.
  • "words like, lie, dissemble, ignores were applied to Microsoft."

    so what?

    those words have been applied to any other major corporation in the world.

    in fact, those words are almost an synonym for corporate america.
  • ... the guilty survives.

  • Ergh (Score:4, Insightful)

    by celeritas_2 ( 750289 ) <ranmyaku@gmail.com> on Sunday October 10, 2004 @11:57AM (#10486177)
    I hate the evil empire I really do, but I've got work to do here. Really, people are getting much too excited about this, Microsoft will eventually die, but not yet anyway. It just depends on how much Longhorn sucks.

    • Re:Ergh (Score:4, Funny)

      by caino59 ( 313096 ) on Sunday October 10, 2004 @12:03PM (#10486207) Homepage
      Longhorn won't be released until Linux has reached a reasonable maturity level on the Desktop and MS has had a chance to carry over the features it deems worthy...

      comspiracy...yea, i'm not really serious about it....but it does make you wonder.

    • yeah so did the nazi deathcamp guards (Score:4, Insightful)

      by SmallFurryCreature ( 593017 ) on Sunday October 10, 2004 @01:07PM (#10486567) Journal
      Or the guards or those who feed the guards or who provide a home for them or those who deliver the prisoners to the deathcamps.

      Evil great and small can happen because people turn their back because it is to inconvenient to deal with it right now.

      But microsoft is an easy evil. You are not going to be shot for going after ms or any other cooperation that has gotten out of control. Yet.

      But leave it like this and the common american Sci-Fi theme of evil cooperations controlling the world, odd that in capatalist america hollywood movies often have cooperations as the evil enemy, will become true.

      Your strategie seems to be that Longhorn will suck. I got news for you. Every fucking windows release ever has sucked. Note that all the MS apologists are saying stuff like "Well this new release is less crap then the old one" but mostly are pointing out how good the next one will be and that all your current troubles are your fault anyway.

      So go right ahead and keep supporting MS with your computer tax and blind obedience. Others are fighting by not giving MS a penny and supporting those who help break out, (Have you bought your copy of Doom3 and Opera yet?)

      For those objecting to the nazis being brought in to this discussion lets not forget that they and their kind (what is the difference between "gein juden" and "whites only") were in power and doing their petty hatred and corrupting long before the famous "final solution" was put into effect. All those years people cried out in protest and people like the above poster silenced them by saying they shouldn't make a fuss and let people get on with their jobs and that it all would work out okay.

      I am not saying that MS will be rounding up people or anything similar. I do foresee a future were cooperations like MS but also like media have such a huge amount of control that being critical about them becomes impossible. Already controversial movies are being boycotted and tv series cancelled because the powers that be don't like them.

      MS will not be the evil but may easily be an instrument. Just as radio tv and the newspapers have become controlled by a tiny handfull of rightwingers (the same families that gave contributions to the nazis) we might loose the net as the last bastion of free expression that can be heard.

      Why else should MS be pushing to make DRM into every piece of media made? Exactly why should my home movies have DRM? To protect my interests or to make sure a protest movie can be easily traced?

      Tin foil hat time or not but MS was caught recording what DVD's people watched. MS said it was a mistake when people found out and asked questions. It was a mistake alright. People never should have found out or am I just paranoid?

      But that is the weird thing about paranoia isn't it. Your only paranoid if your wrong. Like those people who warned of the nazis and the many other horrors before until it is to late people like you have the majority. Afterwards you cry out, why did nobody do nothing.

    • Re:Ergh (Score:2, Insightful)

      by slashname3 ( 739398 )
      Actually the more delay and reduction in features to Longhorn the longer Linux has to get a desktop system that is easy for the typical user to use. Linux already has most of the applications available that can replace all of the Microsoft based applications. Noteable excpetion is tax prepration software. (and I don't consider a web based application as a suitable replacement).

      Mirosoft knows that their current business model will not continue to be viable. That is why they started the process a couple

  • Will it matter? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by nurb432 ( 527695 ) on Sunday October 10, 2004 @11:58AM (#10486183) Homepage Journal
    Even if its proven they lied/committed perjury.. I don't think its going to really matter much.

    The government already has proven they aren't interested in doing the job that was needed, and gave Microsoft a 'pass'.

    Sure they might pull out some token fine to make the people feel better, but it wont amount to anything more then a blip on the books...

    Unlike ATT, when they were attacked, Microsoft has managed to take control of the situation and will in the end, win, regardless of the outcome.
    • I don't know if they still can. The date for latest appeals for the anti-trust suit expired, and you can't try a person or company for the same crime twice. It looks like Microsoft is completely home and dry, at least as far as the DoJ/States anti-trust suit is concerned, even if it's now shown that Microsoft is guilty of perjury, contempt of court, and assorted other "errors of judgement".

      That's not to say I think the current Administration would, even if it could. For a start, the election is too close.

      • Re:Will it matter? (Score:3, Interesting)

        by killjoe ( 766577 )
        I don't know if double jeapordy applies to corporations, I really don't think it does.

        Also the sentence MS got was conditional on them being nice, if they haven't been nice it's back to court.

        Finally nobody got tried for perjury, evidence tampering or witness tampering (intimidation). All those are crimes and all of them were comitted by employees of MS. There is no reason not to try individuals with crimes.
  • If the evidence is as damaging as Cringely claims, then the owners of Burst will get a huge out of court settlement from Micrsoft. It the evidence isn't, then there is no story.

  • Why government DOESN'T keep emails.... (Score:5, Informative)

    by i_want_you_to_throw_ ( 559379 ) on Sunday October 10, 2004 @12:03PM (#10486202) Journal
    I contract for a branch of the military and they have a policy NOT to keep emails after a certain period of time.

    Why? The Freedom of Information Act. People are always filing them (damn you! Damn your FOIA rights!) and they use that time limit as more of a defense for themselves because in the words of legal, sometimes you don't want this stuff coming up.

    Given who they are, you'll understand [army.mil].

    • Re:Why government DOESN'T keep emails.... (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Firstly, this is the link that works:

      Secondly, you should argue against that policy. In all likelihood you never speak with anyone who has the ability to change it or even themselves ever speaks with someone with the ability to change it, but if the information is classified, it is usually exempt from FOIA, and if it isn't, you shouldn't attempt to undermine the FOIA by pre-emptively deleting stuff. In fact, short of imformation that has a need for temporary secrecy such as the evaluation of various bid
  • But not only are the known messages lost from Microsoft's e-mail archive,...

    That's what you get for not installing all the Exhange service packs.

  • Odd isn't it... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Cylix ( 55374 ) * on Sunday October 10, 2004 @12:15PM (#10486261) Homepage Journal
    If this were Joe nobody, they would come and take the relevant hardware from him. If this were Small Business Nobody... they would still take their equipment away from them.

    However, because they are mega-huge corp... they ask for the information.

    It's silly to think they are going to make it easy to screw themselves.

  • Don't be Foolish (Score:3, Interesting)

    by aLe-ph-1(sh) ( 813349 ) on Sunday October 10, 2004 @12:27PM (#10486336) Homepage Journal
    Do Not archive your email, Said Jim Allchen, in the pdf that was mentioned in the email. Heh. Don't be foolish, Don't get us in trouble, must be what they were thinking. Now what amazes me is that if this were say, a kiddy porn ring, or a AlQueda cell, I bet that they could dig out the big guns, like a nice scanning microscope, and sift through the erased 1's and 0's till they made sense of all of it. But no. This is Microsoft, and they just ask. They frikkin' ask nicely, and expect everyone to play by the rules here. Jeez luiz, Microsoft, in an ANTI-""trust"" case. Hmmm. trust. Sounds like expecting to be able to trust a company to do what you are asking is the wrong route in a case about NOT being able to trust...

  • Pretty darn blunt, as such one of his best columns (Score:4, Interesting)

    by fatphil ( 181876 ) on Sunday October 10, 2004 @12:27PM (#10486337) Homepage
    In theory, being from the kind of technical background that I am, I ought to fawn over every column, but, to be honest, I find his usual statements to be a bit feeble, a gentle puff, with no real gusto. He does pull his punches.

    Normally.

    However, this one has broken that mould. There were no punches pulled, and he completely nailed his colours to the mast. Good on him.

    However, I'd be tempted to say that he's even made himself a target of Microsoft lawyers, as he has made allegations which could be, if false, be taken as libelous (or otherwise defamatory). (Not that I believe they are false.)

    Will the posse of lethal attack-lawyers be set on him for it? Or will MS just hope it gets forgotten about as quickly as possible?

    FP.
    • "However, I'd be tempted to say that he's even made himself a target of Microsoft lawyers, as he has made allegations which could be, if false, be taken as libelous (or otherwise defamatory). (Not that I believe they are false.)
      "

      But you have to remember the context of the article; they way I read it, everything mentioned is in the 35 brief from Burst and the unsealed documents. He's just summarizing what's in those documents.

    • The test for libel of a public figure (and though MS is a corporation, it is a legal person, and probably would be treated as a "public figure" for the purposes of libel law - but I am not a lawyer) by a journalist is pretty stringent: either deliberate falsification or reckless disregard for the truth. If MS goes after PBS with a claim that Cringely is libelling them, they'll have to prove that Cringely's accusation is false, AND that Cringely either knew or didn't care it was false. So if there's even a h
    • However, I'd be tempted to say that he's even made himself a target of Microsoft lawyers, as he has made allegations which could be, if false, be taken as libelous (or otherwise defamatory). (Not that I believe they are false.)

      Yeah all Microsoft is to do is to produce evidence to point that he was being leiblous... like emails from... oops. :-/

      Probably what will happen is Microsoft will go to court, and say "We've had a bad deade, and we're sory, here's our hand, go on and slap it and we'll do better ne

  • Liar Liar, Operating System on Fire (Score:4, Funny)

    by Foofoobar ( 318279 ) on Sunday October 10, 2004 @12:50PM (#10486469)
    Microsoft? LIE? Say it isn't so? No, I don't believe it! Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer are two of the most trust worthy people on the planet. When that security is their number one priority and I continually get attacked on a daily basis, I know it's because all those piles of money blocking the hallways in Bill's House was to blame. If only they coud figure out a way to put all that useless money to work solving their problems. Sigh.

  • Where is this storm brewing, exactly? (Score:3, Funny)

    by davie ( 191 ) on Sunday October 10, 2004 @01:36PM (#10486717) Journal
    Is this storm brewing on the horizon, or over Microsoft? I'm confused.
  • "Robert X. Cringely, of I, Cringely discusses one of the last anti-trust lawsuit beleaguering Microsoft..."

    Doesn't Apple have a pending patent on "beleaguered"? Go get 'em Steve!

  • Dont worry (Score:3, Insightful)

    by MemoryDragon ( 544441 ) on Sunday October 10, 2004 @01:42PM (#10486757)
    They will weasel their way out of it again. After all they have so much smearing cream ($$$$) in their pockets that law is a non issue for them.
  • equal a large jury verdict against MS and possibly support a punitive damages award too. A large verdict could represent a tipping point in any number of tactical efforts by MS, for example the ongoing war over consumer desktop space. . . . Okay I just like the idea of a significant verdict coming from a suit which is basically called, "Burst Microsoft."

  • Burst.com (Score:3, Informative)

    by westlake ( 615356 ) on Sunday October 10, 2004 @07:21PM (#10488648)
    Time for a Reality Check:

    Yahoo's last financial profile for Burst.com (2002) had the company with two employees, and nine month revenues of $150,000 set against losses of $628,000. Profile: Burst.com [yahoo.com]

    Burst.com has since raised enough capital to carry it through to trial. Message from the Chairman [burst.com] You could argue that buying stock in the company is simply buying a ticket in the lawsuit lottery. Burst.com has one product and a patent portfolio, neither of which seem to be setting the world on fire. burst.com Sales [burst.com]

    To consider the lawsuit as a threat to Microsoft strikes me as just plain loopy. A bit of trivia: Richard Lang's last success was as the co-founder of Go-Video and co-inventor of the Go-Video dual deck VCR. Burst.com MS Q&A [burst.com]

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