Indymedia Server Raided by FBI 1150
jaromil writes "Today at about 18:00 CET FBI raided the indymedia servers hosted by Rackspace both in US and England. At present, the italian indymedia and numerous other local IMC websites are obscured, while the reasons why the hard drives were taken are still unknown."
And? (Score:2, Insightful)
Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah that freedom of speech thing is a real pain, isn't it?
Re:Why is this "my rights online" (Score:5, Insightful)
The regular media doesn't get taken down so easily...Sounds suspicous....Politically motivated? Possibly...
But kiddy porn ring, no....
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:4, Insightful)
They also published the personal information of the delegates which included home addresses, phone numbers, and places of work.
There were also numerous hacks around that time (protestwarrior for one) in which personal information was posted on Indymedia sites.
When anti-abortion groups post this information on doctors who perform abortions, it is considered a threat. Why is this any different?
This doesn't look good... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:3, Insightful)
Sheesh. Get a clue, or buy one.
due process? (Score:5, Insightful)
now i'm no legal expert, but i was under the distinct impression that, with a few exceptions like threatening the president, you were innocent until proven guilty and had the right to defend yourself. have i missed something?
also by law aren't federal agents, any agents for that matter, required to show the warrant? so *some*body must know what's going on, right?
Kinda short on information (Score:4, Insightful)
And I have to question what little info you have given... after all, I'm pretty sure the FBI (an AMERICAN organization) can't directly raid a rackspace location in ENGLAND... don't they have to arrange with their friends in the relevant British agencies to do something like that?
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:5, Insightful)
...which was already publicly released elsewhere. If you are going to take down the caches of "private" information that was previously published for all to see, then there are a lot of Google cache servers that the FBI needs to seize.
Huge mistake by the feds. (Score:5, Insightful)
"They hate us for our freedom!" (Score:5, Insightful)
(No fair modding me down based on your warped "political" leanings...).
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:3, Insightful)
>
>Yeah that freedom of speech thing is a real pain, isn't it?
Yeah, that privacy thing is a real pain, isn't it?
Supposing for a moment that the speculation is correct: If they were publishing DNC delegate names, or bank/credit card customer names, or even the names under which people had registered at a web site, you'd argue that such an activity ought also to be protected under the First Amendment?
Or do privacy laws somehow become a bad thing when they protect members of a political party with whom you disagree?
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:due process? (Score:5, Insightful)
now i'm no legal expert, but i was under the distinct impression that, with a few exceptions like threatening the president, you were innocent until proven guilty and had the right to defend yourself. have i missed something?
Yes, you have missed something - the national security laws passed in the last few years.
Re:Freedom of speech is a noble thing (Score:1, Insightful)
Besides, if you believe that a terrorist is waiting for someone to post that information is underestimating those people. If they wanted that information secure, they should have thought about that before they made it so easily available some independant media hacks could obtain it.
Re:Freedom of speech is a noble thing (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why is this "my rights online" (Score:2, Insightful)
Clarification Please (Score:4, Insightful)
How do we know it was the police anyway, if they were supposedly undercover? If they were, and someone photographed them, the undercover police shouldn't have had identifying marks. If they're that easily identifable, they're not really undercover, are they? And if they aren't identifiable, then the Swiss themselves gave away the whole shebang by raising a stink about it, no? If the police wanted to remain anonymous, maybe they should have taken the pictures from a long way away with a telephoto lens the size of Hubble, or from behind a one-way mirror in a van or something.
Sorry, this just all seems really messed up to me in general.
Uh... huh... (Score:5, Insightful)
So don't give me this garbage about how I would feel. I don't like the idea that someone could post my address and phone number on the net so that a group of dicks could harass me, but I like even less this whole 'nanny state' censorship issue. And I hate the idea that something like this can be done for a reason that isn't even actually illegal. What's good for the goose is damn well good for the gander.
Now, that said, I think the likelihood that 'RNC' appears in any way on the warrant is vanishingly small. If, in fact, this is in retaliation for the RNC names thing, it's going to have some actual legal basis that is nearly or wholly unrelated.
(And may well be fictional.)
-fred
Re:What is there to know? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:due process? (Score:3, Insightful)
Get some perspective.
Right or wrong doesn't matter... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:4, Insightful)
The delegates and users of protest warriors are not public figures.
There were numerous reports from NYC of delegates to the RNC being accosted. There are many reports of campaign headquarters being shot at, ransacked and stormed in the past few days. I would say that this information was posted with the explicit purpose of targetting those people.
If these were Communists, people would be screaming about "black listing".
Re:Clarification Please (Score:4, Insightful)
The theory being that undercover police work is necessary for a secure society, and that it can't be done if the information about undercover missions is available to the public. Therefore, a sensible citizenry will devise some system by which a trustworthy, individual is appointed to a position of responsibility, where he reviews such warrant requests in private, and makes a judgement on behalf of his fellow citizens, without opening the information to disastrous public review.
Note that judges have been doing this sort of thing for hundreds of years, quite often in countries that have made little or no significant progress towards fascism in that time. So there's probably not much causality between closed deliberations of government and fascism.
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:1, Insightful)
Delegates are NOT political office holders.
They are people selected or appointed to serve in a purely non-governmental role to represent a particular group.
By this logic, all of the protesters who went to NYC on behalf of all the anti-Bush and/or pro-Kerry organizations should have their personal information shared too. I don't think either side should have that info made public.
Re:What is there to know? (Score:5, Insightful)
The first amendment guarantees the right to hold stupid, idiotic political opinions. If you don't like it, there are other countries with different constitutions, feel free to emigrate. Personally, I like the Bill of Rights just fine, thank you.
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:5, Insightful)
Hmmm... I'm gonna go out on a limb here.
Perhaps it has something to do with the reasoning behind the publication, and the history of those who publish this information.
Let's look at the history first.
Liberal activists are not exactly known for being the militant types (just ask any Republican), and are more often than not pigeonholed as hippies, peaceniks, treehuggers and even cowards by the more militant right wing.
Anti-abortion groups on the other hand have a long history of stalking the doctors who perform abortions, which very often leads to physical violence. Many abortion doctors have been murdered for doing their jobs. I don't think a delegate has ever been given so much as a black eye.
Next, let's consider what the reasoning is for the publication in each instance?
When an anti-abortion group publishes the names and addresses of private citizens (doctors), they usually follow it up with "make sure they get the message" or "do what you have to to help save another fetus".
For the most radical of those groups, that can be a very dangerous proposition.
When activists publish the names of delegates which are pledged to their opponent, who are constitutionally not supposed to be secret anyway, they're doing so in order to make sure their supporters use letters and phonecalls to put pressure on them to do what the activists consider to be the right thing, whatever it is.
Now, if you keep these two things in mind:
1) the identities of delegates are not secrets and in an open government that information must remain in the public domain.
2) the intent of the activists is not violence, but peaceful communication.
Compare that with:
1) the identities of doctors are private, although they can be found if you take the time to look for them.
2) the intent of the activists is not peaceful communication, but prevention at all costs.
With those things in mind, I see plenty of reasons as to why publishing the names of delegates should NOT be considered a threat of any kind. In fact, I believe it is protected by the first amendment.
Re:due process? (Score:3, Insightful)
all depends on your perspective (Score:2, Insightful)
I think the difference in perspective may be better understood by seeing those on the Right as composed of two classes--the alpha leaders and the followers. Really, it is a timeless pack-animal, social-animal hierarchy.
We on the Left see humans as something above animals, and to a great extent we reject animal tradition, and seek a new organization, one that minimizes hierarchy, and one that sees a nation as a tool for the citizens. You on the Right seek comfort in a stable society where you and everyone else "know your own place" in society.
Re:due process? (Score:3, Insightful)
1984 was off by about twenty years (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:due process? (Score:5, Insightful)
Rackspace was given no time to defend against the order
How do you "defend" against something like that? You can't dispute a warrant/search order. When the cops show up with paper in hand, you don't get to say "Hey, wait a sec, let's talk this over." They have the warrant. Period.
you were innocent until proven guilty and had the right to defend yourself. have i missed something?
Just because they were searched doesn't mean they've been assumed guilty. (Guilty of what, I have no idea...) That won't be known until the evidence is assessed. And the evidence can't be assessed unless the government has access to it. That's sort of the point of a search order.
Unfortunately, as things currently are, the government can confiscate property under certain laws with no obligation to return it or provide compensation. Drug property forfeitures work the same way -- if you're suspected of transporting cocaine on your yacht, for example, you forfeit the yacht, even if it later turns out you were innocent of everything.
If I were Indymedia, I wouldn't count on ever seeing those hard drives, ever again.
It's the definition of "due process" which has been changing in recent years. The constitution says that we can't be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process, but that isn't clearly defined. And I definitely don't like the direction that definition is evolving toward...
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
UK? (Score:3, Insightful)
If TV has taught me nothing (and it hasn't), this shit happens all the time in the US; but to get a company in the UK to bend over for a US agency is something, even if it does have an american parent.
I guess the moral of the story is if you're worried about this thing happening to your servers make sure you host with a non-US company, even outside the US.
Re:About time! (Score:1, Insightful)
They died to protect our freedom. Why not exercise it vigorously, while we still can?
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd bet about anything that most of the 'against' votes on Slashdot came from Libertarians, be they Big L or Little L.
Love,
A former conservative, who jumped ship when he realized there was no one at the helm.
Re:And? (Score:5, Insightful)
They liked to live on the edge of annoying the establishment... they were the ones that broke the story of the statue of saddam hussen falling being a put-up job for the assembled press (there were only about half a dozen people there, there rest were reporters/press).
"Broke" the story? LOL. More like introduced a conspiracy theory. I watched the whole thing live and there were well more than "half a dozen" Iraqis there. IM's "proof" were pictures *after* the statue fell when most of the were busy dragging saddam's head down the street.
It's not surprising the US want to censor them... surprising they have the guts to do it so publicly though.
It might have something to do with the fact that they have a habit of not pulling illegal material from their site.
Re:Nothing WHAT BULLSHIT! (Score:4, Insightful)
These people should have been shown a warrant and that warrant should be public.
We should know the EXACT reason those hard disks were taken for NOW. This type of crap really, really disturbs me.
What's left to prevent fishing expeditions against people the gov't doesn't like?
They show up search the place, find something illegal, and make up the warrant afterwards?
This is lunacy. The executive branch has been breaking constitutional law left and right and no one is on trial.
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:2, Insightful)
conspiracy (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:No jurisdiction (Score:5, Insightful)
Airstrip One is Part of Oceania, comrade.
*sigh* (Score:3, Insightful)
A conspiracy theory is not a story... there were plenty of other photo angles from that same day that showed a vastly different "story" than IndyMedia posited.
I've dealt firsthand with many of the hacks and idiots involved in Indymedia. They grab on to the coat-tails of any media event or protest they can and then act as extreme as possible to garner press even if it harms the original vision of the event or protest. They are revolting, dishonest and a sad excuse for a "media".
IT SUPPORT (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:3, Insightful)
Contrast this to abortion doctors, who really have been assassinated by pro-life activists. Simply based on past trends, being an abortion doctor in this country is far more dangerous than being a Republican delegate, or being McBride, Gates, Ken Lay, or various other hated corporate figures.
As an aside, I've never heard of any pro-choice activists assassinating anyone on the pro-life side. What does this say about the pro-lifers vs the pro-choicers? I guess, like many religious nutcases, pro-lifers don't see anything wrong with violating one of their own Commandments.
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:5, Insightful)
(There are also reports of non-violent, LICENSED protesters being jailed for three days, then never charged with anything, just to keep them off the street while the RNC was in town. (And people who were just walking to the corner grocery store getting caught up and locked up along with them.) Which is illegal, but is something it looks like we're going to have to get used to.)Actually, there is one report of a campaign headquarters being shot at. Yes, a Republican campaign HQ, and yes, it is fairly well substantiated. It amazes me, because of course the dramatic majority of Democrats are pro gun-control. It looks like Rush -- er, that is to say, Bush -- has pissed someone else off besides the Democrats, eh?
One report of a Republican campaign headquarters being 'ransacked'. That is to say, someone broke into it and stole three laptops, possibly some office equipment, and possibly some money (this is in dispute). The assumption is, although the HQ was a juicy target and the laptops were out in plain sight, it must have been Democrats who did it. Well, possibly it was; it's hardly like the Democratic party can make any claims to sainthood, and I'd find it MUCH more likely that they'd stoop to stealing than they would attempt a drive-by shooting.
And the usual random assortment of graffiti, vandalism, and silliness on both sides. Which is almost certainly just drunk partisan college student asshats.
But hey, you notice that with the information out there, including names, addresses, phone numbers, and all that stuff, for all the RNC delegates... with the information STILL out there... with the information still out there and READILY AVAILABLE... there haven't been any serious incidents?
I mean, hell, if I were one of them, I would be terribly disappointed. 'What, am I not important enough for a few death threats?'Nope, that screaming would start when someone interviewed for a job and was told that they couldn't be hired because they were on 'the list'.
Lists of names don't kill people. People kill people. With guns and lists of names. Why do you want to outlaw the lists of names?
-fred
Re:And? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:3, Insightful)
Bwahahaha... That's one of the funniest things I've ever heard here. Perhaps you haven't heard of ELF, Black Bloc, or Ruckus? Maybe not, but perhaps the Black Panthers and BAMN may jog your memory. These groups aren't necessarily known for their peaceful tactics.
Oh yeah, what about the recent ransackings and shootings at Republican campaign headqurters? Lest we forget that Indymedia itself was born out of the "peaceful" demonstrations at the Seattle WTO conference.
There are radical kooks on both sides of the aisle. You cannot possibly devine that the intention of the the folks who posted that info is entirely peaceful.
Re:Huge mistake by the feds. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Indymedia != Independent? (Score:4, Insightful)
indymedia uses an open publishing system - if someone wanted to post (and had) the DNC names, they could have posted them.
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:3, Insightful)
A popular technique in engineering consent to an issue is to generate a sympathetic response to you candidate. One way to do this is to stage an attack on the candidate, not necessarily a physical one but one where people will feel sorry for him / her.
It is entirely possible these attacks were staged as part of an effort to generate sympathy for GOP candidates. No one should pretend to know any different.
M
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:5, Insightful)
In australia, a typically pro-us country, my grandfather told me that he cant remember a less liked us president. Nixon was kinda up there tho.
Not to put too fine a point on it. George bush is ONLY loved by about half the us population and almost none of the worlds population.
But you get that when your foreign policy is "Fuck the earth".
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:3, Insightful)
I have been doing an informal count of the number of times "Bush" appears (from a level of 1 or above). Bush appears 12 times. 10 of those times are in posts lamenting the fact that everyone is anti-Bush. Could it be that the anti-Bush-haters have overtaken the Bush-haters? Does that leave anyone who actually like Bush?
Or maybe you're just too sensitive. Different communities have different biases. If you want to participate on slashdot, live wth its biases. The fact that more people are complaining about biases than conforming to said biases is telling. Give it a rest.
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:1, Insightful)
Bush has pissed off lots of people. The economic situation has created lots of desparate people. The anti-Bush crowd is made up of lots of people who aren't Democrats.
As I recall, the militia movement (watch out for the jack-booted thugs and black helicopters) was going strong under Bush I. If you are afraid of intrusive, big government, Bush II really isn't your friend. There are lots of right wing fringe groups I would think have real problems with the way things are going.
Re:Gag? (Score:3, Insightful)
the politically motivated ACLU
That would be the same blatantly politically-motivated ACLU that recently supported Rush Limbaugh [cnn.com] would it? Or are you perhaps just demonstrating your own blatant political motivation?
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:5, Insightful)
Given the demonstrated electioneering competency of the Democrats and Republicans in recent years, I would say that the above is actually the most likely explanation.
Re:About time! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, I don't assume, when I hear of another abortion doctor being killed execution-style, that 'Republicans' in general are responsible. It's a lunatic fringe, who have as much right to call themselves Republicans as I have to call myself a martian. When I talk about Republicans did this and Republicans did that, I don't include things that the Republicans can't be proven to have done, and that most Republicans would be deeply ashamed of.
And, amusingly, neither do most other Democrats that I know of. They accept that mainstream Republicanism isn't all about shooting abortion doctors. But then, when some whacko drives by a RNC HQ and shoots at it, not only do the Republicans start yelling at the Democrats about it, as if Kerry somehow planned it, but you actually start hearing Democrats apologizing, as if they thought they were actually responsible!
Puh-leeze. Catch the bastards and get on with life, and don't tell me I'm responsible for their stupidity. (Well, actually, I'm not a Democrat. I just agree with a whole lot more of their platform than I do with the Republicans'.)
-fred
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:3, Insightful)
Tell that to some of the victims of the protests during the RNC.
What about the riot groups that have broken into RNC campaign centers throughout the country?
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:And? (Score:4, Insightful)
There are many many situations where illegal material is illegal illegally (violation of 1st amendment rights, of speech, press, or protest) and is therefore legal if you're willing to battle it out. The US government is way too involved in influencing public opinion, something they ought not to at all.
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:4, Insightful)
Being a New York City resident, I can tell you that New York is far less democratic than probably all of the top 100 cities. There are some places, like Chicago, Milwaukee, Cleveland, New Haven, Bridgeport, Washington, DC, and Philadelphia where there are NO republicans on the city council and they haven't had a republican mayor since before the depression.
New York has many, many districts that are strongly republican, such as large parts of Brooklyn, all of Staten Island and most of Queens. We haven't had a Democrat mayor since 1993, probably when you were still in grade school.
Further, I can tell you that the vast majority of protestors were not city residents. Most were students from all over the country, indoctrinated by communist teachers at surrounding universities. Most New York residents who had the opportunity LEFT the city to avoid the mayhem. The rest have jobs that make it a little difficult to go on a rampage on city streets.
I unfortunately did not leave, but one thing I can also tell you, as I chose to ride my bike during these times as it is the quickest way around during disasters, 90% of the protestors were White and between 18 and 30. These protests were nothing more than a generation educated by communists looking for something to protest.
We don't have any oppressive laws anymore, so instead the only think left to do is villify people. Its not the law that's bad, but the people in government.
Re:Flamebait (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:"They hate us for our freedom!" (Score:4, Insightful)
If that is really true, and if the checks and balances in our system of government turn a blind eye to such a thing were it ever to be uncovered, then it's time to pull out the ammo box and have another revolutionary war.
Personally, I don't think it's gone quite that far yet. So vote in people who will correct the election system.
Another possibility. (Score:3, Insightful)
So far as I've ever been able to determine, Bush is so sodding incompetent that I would expect the range of anti-Bush people to approximate "everyone". Even if you happen to have exactly the same set of goals, values, and priorities which Bush claims, I would imagine that you'd at least want a remotely intelligent and competent person to pursue them.
From my Federal Law enforcement peep (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:3, Insightful)
Eileen Janezic was a total nutcase, and is probably one of the few who you really could say murdered someone for their pro-life views.
Byron Looper was only slightly less of a whacko, but there is zero evidence that he killed anyone because of their views on abortion. He was convicted of murder in the first degree for killing someone so that he could be elected in his stead. If you make the assumption that the only reason anyone would want to be a politician is to take sides on the abortion issue, then you might be right, by your definition. You'd be silly, by mine.Ah, look, cut and pasted from the web site. Sadly, their numbers are actually spurious (drawing conclusions for the entire country based largely on behavior in heavily populated and low-income areas) and their assumptions are odious ('anyone who murders their pregnant girlfriend is by definition an abortion rights advocate, and is the moral equivalent of all other abortion rights activists'.)
That would be laughable, if it weren't so sad.
And the corollary has apparently not occurred to these people yet. That is to say, if, with abortion legal, people still kill their partners because they get pregnant...
-fred
Independant Media? (Score:5, Insightful)
If the National Post (rigidly right wing Canadian paper) will publish Linda McQuaig and others, why aren't there any divergent viewpoints on Indymedia?
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:1, Insightful)
Not that Kerry's proposed foreign policy isn't only a hair different anyway, but that's another story. Why foreigners like him is something I cannot explain. Didn't he help start a war the rest of the world is complaining about and Kofi Annan declared was illegal under the UN Charter? Not exactly a good guy.
Re:What is there to know? (Score:2, Insightful)
The first amendment guarantees the right to hold stupid, idiotic political opinions. If you don't like it, there are other countries with different constitutions, feel free to emigrate. Personally, I like the Bill of Rights just fine, thank you.
The National Post. . . (Score:5, Insightful)
Apples and oranges.
Indymedia definitely has an agenda. There is no question about this, and that agenda is to tell those stories which the National Post will never, ever touch. Linda McQuaig, as admirable as her socialist/Marxist thinking is, remains little more than a showpiece to give a lousy paper some legitimacy. (They call it, 'controversy' and they use it in a large part to sell ad spots.) Indymedia doesn't need to do this. Their primary concern is not money-making or winning false legitimacy.
Linda McQuaig is also carried in the National Post for another reason; so that people can ask exactly the question you asked; so that they can feel as though there is a legitimate reason to scorn and ignore alternative news sources.
But I think that this is unwise. Linda McQuaig will not, for instance, be allowed to report on the true events happening in Israel. Canwest Global, (which owns the National Post), has been caught re-wording stories about the war on Palestine so that unaware readers will want to favor the Israelis [www.cbc.ca].
Indymedia and other alternative news sources are needed exactly because they do not fall beneath the control of such influences. Or, at least, that was true until the FBI entered the scene.
-FL
Re:No jurisdiction (Score:4, Insightful)
I've got some bad news for you sunshine, Tony Blair, the British PM, is G.W's bitch. I don't know what Tony gets from sucking Bush's ass but it must be something good given the way he does it.
Re:due process? (Score:3, Insightful)
My post was in response to it's parent (as posts usually are
In the last few years, the assumption of innocent until proven guilty and the right to know the charges against you and defend yourself have been encroached upon.
Search warrants have been around for a long time, but sealed warrants and gagging orders are becoming more and more common.
Re:...and? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why is this "my rights online" (Score:3, Insightful)
They are also biased in at least one sense of the word.
Fox News is certainly not independent in most senses of the word. Their degree of bias will be left as an exercise to the reader.
-fred
Re:Clarification Please (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:3, Insightful)
I would agree with you about this part...
....but as near as I can tell all the Libertarians I knew (personally knew) voted for Bush in 2000. I don't know many, but the ones I know all jumped to the Right.
To give them credit, they thought that "neo-conservative" meant "new conservative" and didn't realize that "conservative" to the Bush camp means "bloated, deficit-spending fascism in pusuit of Global Dominion" and not "lean, low-powered, balanced budget, states rights, small goverment."
Some of them have seen the light since 2000, but it is really too bad, imo, that they did so too late. The Republicans played them, then tossed them away, and they (the Libertarians) will probably never recover, since by nature their ideology can only exist with Freedom as a co-requisite, and Freedom is in seriously short supply in the US since 2000.
Now HERE'S a really crazy idea! (Score:3, Insightful)
If these are the people who ultimately elect my President why do I not have a right to know exactly who they are? And why would my (the represented's) knowledge serve as a threat in any form or fashion?
The next thing you know, someone will be explaining why we shouldn't release the President's name to the public for security reasons.....
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:3, Insightful)
No. The plain fact is there are no Bush supporters - only people who hate Kerry are voting for Bush. Of course, only Bush-haters are voting for Kerry, so the rest of us - those that don't hate - are just screwed.
The 2-party system has got to be torn down. Especially since it is now a 1-party system since the Right has succeeded in enforcing their control over the setting of the agenda, and e.g. Kerry can only react. As near as I can tell there is no Democratic platform this year. And probably no Democratic Party, either. Just a loose coalition of "People Against Bush". There are a lot more of them that is getting reported, of course, but it's still all just bullshit as long as the Demopublicrat system stays in place....
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:5, Insightful)
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:5, Insightful)
>Your misconceptions about the Bush Administration are astounding.
Yes, the foreign policy isn't "Fuck the Earth." The foreign policy is "You mean there are places outside the US, really?" And the net effect is that a president that couldn't find London on a well marked map of England just makes arbitrary decisions with no thought to the consequences, but won't ever reconsider them because changing your policy when new information is revealed is being wishy-washy, and that is left for senators.
Re:Nothing WHAT BULLSHIT! (Score:2, Insightful)
Hey, those that make the rules and enforce the rules can, essentially, do what ever they want and there is not a damned thing "Joe Citizen" can do about it.
And to those of you that think the wheels of a brave new orwellian world aren't already in motion: nothing to see here, go back to sleep.
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:1, Insightful)
So, alright, yay! Murder, theft, rape, incest, etc. are all back in.
The entire criminal code is legislated morality stupid. The question is how far reaching should it go? You gotta remember there was no such thing as separation of church and state until this century. Read the 1st amendment it says: CONGRESS shall pass no law. So that means anything not performed by congress or that isn't a law is legal. 10 commandments in a courthouse is not congress passing a law. Words mean what they mean, the people who wrote the constitution had a particular meaning and purpose in mind (which is well documented) and thats what we should go by when we read it because that is what it "says". Any time we try to put something between the lines like separation of church and state as we perceive it now, is violating the intent of the author. The only LEGALLY valid way to CHANGE that is by changing our constitution.
But instead, the courts have changed everything based on definitions of words that they MADE UP ON THE SPOT to fit thier personal views. The court doesn't have the authority to CHANGE the meaning of the constitution, only whether or not a law is valid and acceptable within the constraints of the constitution as defined and intended by the authors.
End of rant. In otherwords, if Jerry Fallwell legislates morality that doesn't violate the constitution, and does so by the proper legal processes as defined in the constitution. That means elected officials agreeing with him, and passing laws based on that. If you don't like that, then don't keep elected people who agree with Jerry Fallwell--thats the american way. And if you can't get other people elected then that means that is the will of the people, whether it is out of ignorance or knowledge.
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:5, Insightful)
OK, first of all.. when you preface something with "In fact", please make sure what follows actually is fact.
This is a neocon distortion of the truth, and you're very likely to hear that diatribe from Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh.
Liberals, (a word and a definition which is not synonymous with leftists) are peaceful, but will use violence in self defense. Violence and militarization is and shall always be the last possible option when settling a dispute of any kind.
Leaders are more effective when they lead by example and by being respected, than if they use force and/or fear. The first option may take a little longer in some cases, but it's better for everyone in the long run. Ruling by might is a silly and naive idea.
It's apparent from your post that you don't see a difference between leftist and liberal, which is really a shame, because those two ideals are so different, and it wouldn't make you look so ignorant.
For the record, I'm a liberal, not a leftist.
Just like there are conservatives who are not right-wing.
John McCain, Arnold Schwarzenegger and many other Republicans are not right-wing, but are actually conservatives.
If you don't know that there is a difference between those ideals (liberal vs leftist, right-wing vs conservative), then you simply have no place participating in this discussion.
All the groups you mentioned are not liberal groups, altough I'm sure Hannity or Limbaugh would call them that (a further display of their complete ignorance about these groups, liberalism and the left).
So... in short... your answer is not really an argument, it's just a rehashing of old and tired diatribe.
"So, when Leftist organizations start posting names, locations, and other personal information of people who oppose them, the first and only logical conclusion is that the poster expects the people on the list to be at least harassed and potentially physically attacked."
I think you're projecting quite a bit here. To you it might be the first and only conclusion, but that tells me more about you than it does about the people who posted the information.
As you can see from my original post, my first assumption is that they're trying to put political pressure on them, not incite violence.
Now, seeing as you seem to be on the right-wing side of things, do you consider Freedom of Speech to be a right or a privilege afforded to us by the State?
Think about it for a moment.
A right is something which the government cannot take away. A privilege is something the government, as an extension of society, can limit and reduce or even revoke.
So, since freedom of speech is a right, the government cannot limit its usage in any way, shape or form, without violating the 1st Amendment.
Ponder for a moment what the words 'unalienable Rights' mean.
Ponder also the notion that the Constitution gives powers to the government, and not vice versa. The government is an extension of us, not our owner. We tell the government what it can and cannot do on our behalf, not the other way around. Remember: "Of the People, By the People and For the People"?
We're all members of the same club, called The United States of America. We have basic club rules which we use as the basis for other rules we come up with to make the membership more enjoyable. Those basic club rules are what we call the Constitution and its amendments (the Bill of Rights). Those rules are what we must always go back to whenever there's a dispute or confusion about what other rules can and cannot dictate. They are also what we use to control how much power those we've chosed to enforce the rules, get to use in their efforts to enforce them.
The laws of the games being played, cannot violate the basic rules of the club, nor can the enforcement of the laws of the games.
This is very clear and simple to me. Either you believe
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh, awesome! (Score:4, Insightful)
That is, I can see what it had to do with Germany, but I don't think it's at all fair to use that example to condemn socialist thinking. I very much doubt that the con-job which went down in Nazi Germany would have met with Marx's approval!
Basically, what I mean in regards to McQuaig is that she appears to abhor greed-motivated social policy. (See for example, this piece of hers on economics and the homeless [straightgoods.ca].)
I think people who work against greed and injustice, deserve respect, and that those who deliberately ignore the lessons of kindergarten, (ie., how to share and play fairly; things we all instinctively know are right), are not worthy of respect. It seems to me that the primary thing which angers those of the conservative mind-set is simply their being told that they should not be allowed take and self-serve without limit, without regard to others or the world they live in.
I've yet to meet the diehard conservative who, with all else stripped away, is anything more than a selfish kid struggling to make-believe greed into something wholesome-sounding.
Anyway, with regards to Indymedia not being balanced in its view. . . This is true, but my thought is that Service-to-Self thinking is fundamentally structured in such a way that it is incompatible with Service-to-Other work, and after a point, it becomes in fact impossible for the two apporaches to accommodate each other at all.
--This is certainly a reflection of my own take on how reality works, and I don't expect everybody to agree with me. I see reality as a war zone between those who are seeking their higher selves and enlightenment, and those who are seeking their lower selves and the ultimate dissolution of the soul. I see the black hole as being the physical metaphor for self-service.
With these two types of people, as they say, "Never the twain shall meet".
-FL
Re:Oh, awesome! (Score:3, Insightful)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0
The basic point, analyzed from a multitude of angles, is that in order to provide for the promises of as socialist utopia (or any utopia for that matter) personal freedom (thought/speech/action) must be sacrificed completely. He makes a strong point that contrary to popular believe, economic freedoms are closely tied to freedom of speech, freedom of association, etc. And that without the former, the latter will quickly disappear.
re: bullies
I have no doubt many people attracted to the capitalist system are greedy selfish bullies, but under a socialist regime those same people would still exist and they would merely be attracted to power & influence in the socialist state infrastructure. Unless you advocate giving people personality tests at a young age and shooting those who look like they might be bullies, then I don't see how socialism will fare any better.
Further, while I was tormented by bullies as much as anyone on
The socialist utopia would work great if the only people in it were community minded open source programmers. But those wouldn't be the only people in it. And the bullies would soon rise to the top once again. At least in the current system you have enough freedom to steer clear of most of them.
k I'm done
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:3, Insightful)
Is there another article you forgot to link to that shows that Democrats were convicted of these crimes? Because this one sure didn't.
Democrats aren't the only ones in the Anti-Bush crowd, you know. Not by a long shot.
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:3, Insightful)
I think that you have it backwards.
Bush is clearly biased against the facts.
Re:"They hate us for our freedom!" (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm from Europe. And I must say that finding out that I'm part of "subordinated chattel population" is certainly news to me!
I think there are two possibilities:
a) Their brainwashing is excellent since I haven't figured this out yet, despite living here 27 years.
b) You are just talking out of your ass.
Have you ever been to Europe? For a longer period of time? Do you even own a passport? What is your source of "news"? Rush Limbaugh and Fox News?
So, Americas "borgeuos nature" (which includes stuff like life, liberty and property ownership) sets it apart from Europe (which presumably doesn't have those things). Funny, I'm alive so I obviously have life. I have all the essential freedoms a person can have. And I sure as hell own my car, my house, my television, my computer etc. etc. etc. so I obviously have property!
Knowning all that, I'm placing my bets on the B-option.
god bless america (Score:5, Insightful)
Unlike other countries, it's very rare for Americans to come together and work in a way that might be perceived a threat to the power of the powers-that-be, specifically the idle class that lives off the profit generated by American workers. This type of repression is uncommon because American workers so rarely come together to form our own media, organize in unions and so forth. One reason is because of a sort of Catch-22 that a society of isolated, individualized people has less of a foundation to come together to do so. Another is the massive machine - the world's largest army, prison system, intelligence system, military-industrial complex, lobbying efforts, corporate media, PR industry, fundamentalist churches, corporate law firms and so forth that attacks such efforts for workers to organize together and have their own voice. Faced with attacks by such, people become like Pavlovian dogs and go to their atomized lives of individualized exploitation, and buck the system less. Nonetheless, I think American workers will continue to try to organize together, but I pray that that the US machine continues to get foreign pressure, especially from workers organizing in foreign countries.
Indymedia is one of the few medias out there, one of almost the only medias out there that is not corporate owned and controlled, where anyone can file stories, and which is run and read by working people. Of course the corporate world and their government stooges would see that as a threat.
The charges are of course nonsense. If Chavez in Venezuela or Castro or Cuba or some other figure did this, Bush would be decrying the totalitarianism of their government right now and the rest of the corporate TV talking heads would nod their heads. Indymedia has open publishing but when "illegal content" is posted it erases it (unless it sues not to like in the Diebold case). I think that legally the idea that there is so much potential "illegal content" out there is ridiculous to begin with, and is something to be thought about. Most of the stuff posted was already floating around the net before someone posted it on Indymedia.
The problem I guess is Indymedia is a little too free for the corporate soft money bought stooges in Washington DC. They want Indymedia to be more self-censoring, letting any Tom Dick or John Q. Public have his unfiltered say is a little too dangerous. It's ironic that Indymedia is around the world, even in places like Palestine, Colombia and other places you'd expect these crackdowns, but it's the US security forces who are so often attacking this medium.
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:5, Insightful)
I suppose we should quite legislating anything in the Bible right, I mean thats what Fallwell is going off of for what he wants.
No, we should quit legislating things on the grounds of one random bible. Under the constitution your choice of bible has no more and no less standing than the Torah, the Koran, or even the Satanic Bible.
So, alright, yay! Murder, theft, rape, incest, etc. are all back in. The entire criminal code is legislated morality stupid.
No, you're the one failing to realize that you can establish the foundation for our entire legal system (at least for the legitimate laws) without refering to religion at all. If you steal my stuff, or stab me, you have violated my constitutionally guaranteed rights. I can use force to protect my rights. The government can also use force in the form of armed policement to capture and imprison you in defense of my rights. It can do so on my behalf. On the other hand you have dumb-ass laws like prohibiting the sale of beer on Sunday. That is a purely religiously motivated law (to promote/protect church attendance), and constitutionally prohibited. It is no more valid than a Jewish or Islamic law prohibiting certain things only on Friday or Saturday.
You gotta remember there was no such thing as separation of church and state until this century. Read the 1st amendment it says: CONGRESS shall pass no law. So that means anything not performed by congress or that isn't a law is legal. 10 commandments in a courthouse is not congress passing a law.
Ah, a Constitutional scholar! Not!
If you want to talk about their original intent I suggest you read James Madison's own writings on the subject. He was the one who wrote it so he damn well ought to know it's intended meaning.
The intent of the first amendment is that the government is prohibited from showing favoritism of any religious belief over any other. As a government empolyee you are welcome to include the 10 commandments amongst the personal knick-nacks on your desk, but you cannot put up an official ten-foot engraving of the ten commandments on the government building itself. If you COULD do that, then all religions also get that same freedom. The principal of your children's school would have every right engrave a Satanic prayer on the school entrance.
You are welcome to engage in personal prayer as you please. However you may not abuse your offical position to impose your prayer and religious beliefs on others while acting in an official capacity as an agent of the government. As a government employee you can take personal time to pray, but you cannot abuse your official government powers as teacher or principal to subject students to your prayer. If you attempt to claim you do have the right to do so then I merely need point out that the govenrment cannot grant that right exclusively to your religion - some other teacher would then have the exact same right to subject your children to his Satanic prayer.
Individuals have religious freedom. The government itself has no religion. The government itself has no religious beliefs. The government itself has no religious freedom. Note that saying the government has no religious freedom is NOT in any way Atheist - the government is equally prohibited from in any way promoting the religious belief that there is no god.
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Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:4, Insightful)
9/11 worked out alright for the Project for a New American Century...
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:2, Insightful)
Insightful? Sounded more funny to me, since there are Bush supporters, but most Kerry 'supporters' really just want to get rid of Bush. The only Democrat with any enthusiastic supporters was Dean. Kerry seemed to win because people thought he was less crazy than Dean, and could actually win in the general election.
Re:Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press! (Score:1, Insightful)
especially if you consider the views of regular people rather than governments. followed by a reference to a specific region (the Middle East).
Go to the World Factbook [cia.gov] or other resource of your choice and look at the types of governments in the Middle East (or "rest of the world" for that matter). You'll discover some shocking information they don't teach you in the local MoveOn.org reeducation camps:
o Nearly all of the Middle East nations use a non-representative government model. Although the former poster references the views of the people, the reality is that the people don't matter at all in the Middle East to their own governments. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, etc. are not representative governments.
o In a non-representative government, the press is not a free entity. Subsequently, messages delivered by the press are those of the non-representative governments, intended to manipulate public opinion. It is critical that public dissatisfaction with living conditions and general welfare be blamed on someone other than the oppressive government: Jews, Americans, etc.
If you don't understand or don't believe me, don't waste your time arguing. Travel to the Middle East and discover it first hand. Be sure to take a bunch of your MoveOn propeganda with you and pick a nice friendly country like Syria to protest against the government. I can guaranteee they'll help you understand how wrong you are.
Re:Indymedia != Independent? (Score:3, Insightful)
Would you like some other proof that no US media offers a leftist perspective? What US media sources rose in protest when the US armed forces were killing journalists in Iraq? In Spain, all journalists had a one-day boycott of government news (turned their backs to the President's press conference and layed their cameras and notebooks on the ground) after the spate of Army killing non-embedded journalists. In the US, you have people like Ann Garrells of NPR, who said that Tariq Ayyub "should have known better."
What US media has questioned whether the attack on the USS Cole is terrorism? What US media has questioned whether the attack on the Pentagon is terrorism? Neither fits the definition of terrorism under US Law, which requires that the target be civilian in nature.
What US media pointed out what people like Scott Ritter have been saying for years about Iraq? What US media, in 1991, pointed out that Saddam was willing to withdraw from Kuwait in exchange for an Israeli withdrawl from Lebanon and the Occupied Territories? I mean, that was an attempt at diplomacy, and we undercut it with a war. Yet the media doesn't portray it that way, they portray it as our President "standing firm."
Have you read Manufacturing Consent, by Noam Chomsky? Check it out- or the documentary if you're pressed for time. It is simply impossible to argue with his institutional analysis, and he has very striking evidence- of course, it's all very old now, but it's still real. Most famous is his comparison of coverage of Cambodia versus East Timor.
If the Democrats and Republicans do not reflect the center of American politics, how do you explain both of them getting roughly half of the votes? That's sort of proof that they represent the American center, is it not?