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Inside Look at Patent Examination 214

KingFatty writes "This article written by a former patent examiner describes patent application as a matter of luck when it comes to the competency of the examiner. "Every examiner starts with his or her first patent application after receiving just two weeks of training at the USPTO Patent Academy, where he or she learns the basics of the Manual of Patent Examining Procedure. Will your patent application be examined by that newly recruited examiner? If so, will the examiner's supervisor (supervisory patent examiner or SPE)[be] sufficiently skilled in the art in which the patent application is classified?" Gives insights as to the problems with the US Patent and Trademark System."
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Inside Look at Patent Examination

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  • Peer review (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sweet cunny muffin ( 771671 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @05:37PM (#8875228)
    Why aren't patents exposed to peer review, like academic articles are? The invention (if it is) will be protected by the patent pending laws while it's reviewed.
    • Re:Peer review (Score:5, Insightful)

      by nodwick ( 716348 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @05:53PM (#8875426)
      Why aren't patents exposed to peer review, like academic articles are? The invention (if it is) will be protected by the patent pending laws while it's reviewed.
      Having had some experience with the academic peer review process, from both the reviewer and reviewee perspective, I feel obligated to point out that the peer review process is far from perfect as well. Off the top of my head, a couple of points to consider:

      1. Finding qualified reviewers. Many academics in my field (network theory) have been complaining about "reviewer burnout". Simply put, any popular field will have lots of people submitting papers [patents, in your analogy] in an effort to boost their publications. Oftentimes, many of these people will submit stuff that's obviously not publication-quality material, but reviewers still have to spend their time first to evaluate it and then to produce a good writeup justifying rejecting it. To be sure, there are still good papers, but the general experience seems to be that the signal-to-noise ratio of submissions is directly inverse to the popularity of the field. Imagine how much worse this would be for patents, where the payoff is not just CV bragging rights but actual profit dollars.

      The end result is that it's difficult to get quality reviews, because the reviewers (who, by definition of peer review, tend to be very busy professionals who already have a lot to do) get burned out and are tempted to just breeze through reviews. Since the patent office gets many more patent applications than your typical journal, I'd imagine this would be an even bigger problem for patents.

      2. Finding honest reviewers. By making patents peer-reviewed, you're forcing applicants to disclose the details of their technology to their peers before their patent is accepted. A similar situation exists in academia where often multiple research groups are working on the same research project. Sadly, it's not unheard of for particular reviewers to stonewall acceptance of papers because they have similar results which they are submitting / hope to submit soon to another journal. Imagine how, in the case of patent review where people are competing not just for notoriety but for profits, an even bigger incentive would exist for this sort of thing to go on.

      I understand that your point is that it would be nice to have highly qualified individuals doing patent reviews, which would hopefully inject more common sense into the proceedings. I'm just saying that setting up such a system may hhave its own problems to iron out.

    • IP tax (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @06:24PM (#8875698) Homepage Journal
      The people protect patented IP rights by funding the PTO and courts in which IP cases are tried. Patents ought to be filed with a tax on their owners as a percentage of returns on the IP. So there's no barrier to filing, but cashing in on the protected asset pays for its protection. The owner's IP assets:income ratio would be applied to the IP, and say a 0.01% tax would be applied to the IP's share of the revenue. The taxes would be spent on a small administration of patent process managers. The actual examinations and tests would be outsourced to certified private American engineering firms. Thus the engine of American ingenuity would be harnessed to drive around the seatbelts, airbags and ABS brakes of the entire infrastructure. Until then, the IP holders are getting a free ride.
    • Hmmm, this is sort-of what may be happening with the MS attempt to patent FAT.

      It's now being challenged by PUBPAT. [pubpat.org]

    • Bad idea.

      In academia, I assume that work is under a commons. But in business, work is private in order to exploit and control profits.

      I can see it now: your company submits a patent, and the patent gets reviewed by "peers" (i.e. officers, scientists and engineers from other companies). These peers get a review of their competitor's work, turn down the patent, then file their own immediately by the magic of cut-n-paste.

      I happen to know a company who was subject to just this kind of thing. They a
  • Nonsense. (Score:5, Funny)

    by jtheory ( 626492 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @05:39PM (#8875249) Homepage Journal
    It's quite clear to me that most of the problems in our patent system were caused by Albert Einstein.

    Now patent clerks everywhere do half-assed work, their brains busy trying to come up with the next great theory of time, gravity, and light.
    • by FrYGuY101 ( 770432 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @05:42PM (#8875286) Journal
      Mr. Smith: I've come to patent a theory. I call it "Smith's Theory of Relativity".
      Einstein thumbs through the papers.
      Enistein knocks out Mr. Smith, and runs.
      • Interestingly enough, Einstein was influenced by patents he saw. You see, at the time everyone was submitting patents for ways to syncronize clocks. This led Einstein to think about the nature of time and light and such, thus leading to special relativity. I'm sure someone can post a link or more information.
        • Bizarre, I've never heard this angle. Most references I find are related to claims in Galison's book "Einstein's Clocks, Poincaré's Maps: Empires of Time " [physicsweb.org]. Everyone else seems to regard this as a bit apocryphal. Still interesting, though.

          From the linked book review:

          The young Einstein was not, of course, employed in the academic world but in the Swiss Patent Office. And Switzerland, as we know, was a centre of invention and innovation in clock technologies. The patent office at Bern was a clearing-h
  • Huge Patent Issues (Score:4, Insightful)

    by cexshun ( 770970 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @05:40PM (#8875265) Homepage

    I feel the largest problem with the patent system is allowing people to patent "ideas" without a working prototype. I think this can and will lead to intuitive innovations being passed over because the manufacturer would have to pay patent fees to the "inventor". Total BS.

    If the "inventor" didn't have the balls to put his/her money where their mouth is, then they don't deserve shit! Let's not punish companies willing to put forth money into a great idea by making them pay some lazy ass moron who payed a small patent fee to patent his idea of clapping to turn on a light.

    • by alen ( 225700 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @05:48PM (#8875358)
      But isn't this going to punish the small inventor that may not have the financial resources or VC contacts to profit from their ideas?
      • by cexshun ( 770970 )
        So we either punish the one puny inventor or we punish the world, pick one. Let's say the internal combustion engine was an idea some guy patented a long time ago. Then, the invention was passed over by legit companies actually want to manufacture this idea because of the vast royalties they'd have to pay some guy with an idea he had while taking a shit. Where would we be today? Damn, where did I park my horse and buggy...
        • If he patented it a long time ago then the patent would have expired by now.
        • If the "puny inventor" created the idea, then the "legit companies" should pay him for it. Itellectual property rights are important in a capitalist society. Without being rewarded for work, less work would be done and society would be worse off.
          • I think the point was the companies may have also "invented" the engine, but when they went to take it to market, the "puny inventor"'s legion of lawyers (he sold the idea to a pure-ip portfolio company) said that all the money the companies spent didn't mean squat, since they (the guys who now own the "puny inventor"'s invention) were there first.

            Itellectual property rights are important in a capitalist society. Without being rewarded for work, less work would be done and society would be worse off.
        • Let's say the internal combustion engine was an idea some guy patented a long time ago. Then, the invention was passed over by legit companies actually want to manufacture this idea because of the vast royalties they'd have to pay some guy with an idea he had while taking a shit. Where would we be today? Damn, where did I park my horse and buggy...

          Where would we be today? Probably not so different in your imaginary world as this real one; patents expire (unlike copyrights).

      • Man, I wish I had my mod points now. Great point.
    • by Kenja ( 541830 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @05:49PM (#8875371)
      So only large corporations that can afford R&D labs should be able to get patents? Thats sort of the opposite of what patents where intended for. You patent the idea, and then go and find someone to back the project and produce the prototype.
      • by cexshun ( 770970 )
        Exactly. An "inventor" can document and notarize all procedings of his idea while he gets a backer to fund the process. And if someone beats him to the patent, it's a matter of providing the documentation that you actually had the idea first. If I worked for the patent office, no working prototype = patent denied!
        • by Kenja ( 541830 )
          So his "backer" would get the patent. The inventor would get nothing. Once again, not a great way to encourage individual inventers. Since the idea behind patents is to stimulate the creation of technology and ideas, limiting patents to those who can afford to build a prototype seems counter productive.
          • But many of the older patents were decided on that alone. The telephone is a key patent decided by it's working. Bell was the first one to get an offical public demonstration done and the paperwork turned in so he got the patent even though the other guy had working protypes, he didn't have it "offical" in time.

            Frankly, it's a good cause for more limited times on Patents and Copyrights. If you reduce the time for them to something reasonable...like 7 years instead of 20 that would capture 90% of the p

        • > no working prototype = patent denied!

          What if the inventor can't afford to create it? And the VCs won't invest in him until they are sure the item is patented -- they don't want to lose all their money later because they find out he stole the idea from someone else.

          I think rejecting it outright due to lack of prototype would be bad, but to avoid the creation of "companies" like PanIP, how about the patent being granted on a trial basis? If, after maybe two years, there is still no actual working de
      • You patent the idea, and then go and find someone to back the project and produce the prototype.

        Used to be that the default status of inventor-to-backer relationship was mutual trust. Some uncontrollable social developments have changed that; I can think of three, off the top of my head:

        1) Popularization/validization of the greed instinct (getting used to a 20% ROI),
        B) More popular focus on "having stuff" rather than achieving things,
        III) The internet and "free" information-flinging, where everything
        • > Until "The Next Big Thing" comes along (very unlikely - you can't go much further than having everyone on the net,

          Likely, the "Next Big Thing" will be completely different. Using your thoughts presented here taken back in time:

          40 Years ago: "You can't go much further than having everyone connected by telephone! Instant communication!"

          Now: "You can't go much further than having everyone on the net. REALLY instant communication!"

          Future: "You can't go much further than having everyone connected to
    • If the "inventor" didn't have the balls to put his/her money where their mouth is

      Do you know how much it costs to succesffuly apply (meaning retaining a lawyer throughout the process) for a utility patent? Don't you conisder the thousands of dollars "putting money where your mouth is?"
      • I believe the costs start out at about $10,000.00. My mouth isn't that big.
        • by zero_offset ( 200586 ) on Friday April 16, 2004 @05:49AM (#8879304) Homepage
          A utility patent is the full-blown patent. Right now, getting one can be as cheap as about $4000, but it can run up into the $15K range. It depends on a whole bunch of factors.

          What most regular folks do (e.g. individuals who aren't a patent factory like IBM, 3M, GE, etc) is file for a provisional patent. This is a relatively cheap process (in the neighborhood of $1500) which protects the basic idea for one year, with the intent of allowing you to file changes (improvements) to the basic claim. That's the INTENT -- because changing a "real" utility patent is very time consuming and expensive.

          What most people actually use the provisional patent for is to protect their idea while they shop it around to investors and licensees. Then you make it a condition of the licensing that the first licensee pays for the full-blown patent expenses (or something along those same lines).

          But it should actually be pretty rare for the expenses to run as high as $10K. (I happen to be in the process of patenting something, and luckily a friend of mine is a patent attorney.)
          • Is that friend charging you? Maybe my friend was getting fleeced, but his total was really high when he was in the same process. I'm sure costs would change depending on what your are patenting. I was thinking $10,000.00 was the average, but your information was interesting. Good luck with your patent.
    • Here's my idea for patent reform:

      Let's give people "temporal patents" that would give them some time to create a prototype of what it is they want to patent. This way they could go to a manufacturer to have it made without having to worry about getting their idea stolen. If they do not create their prototype within some given time-frame, then they lose the patent.
    • by jmullen ( 771703 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @07:38PM (#8876437)
      Working as a patent agent at a top IP law firm, I am probably biased. Nonetheless, I will provide you with your answer. People that patent their ideas have made a working model of their invention in a way. In order for a patent, your application has to "enable one skilled in the art at the time the invention was made" to build and operate the invention. You can't patent ideas. You can't say "i want to patent an antigravity device." However, if you come up with a way to make an antigravity device you have to disclose how to make one. If you do not disclose how to make it then the patent will not be valid because 1) it will not be an enabling disclosure; and 2) you will not have described the best mode. Now, we want people to patent things. Patents are one of the reasons why technology is blooming. Before the patent system was utilized, companies would keep ideas secret as ... trade secrets. Now, they are utilizing the patent system in which the government gives them a 20 year limited monopoly (i.e., the reason why there will never be an antitrust issue because of a patent, just business practices) in exchange for the public disclosure of how to make and use the invention. Those are the facts. Jeff
      • In order for a patent, your application has to "enable one skilled in the art at the time the invention was made" to build and operate the invention. You can't patent ideas. You can't say "i want to patent an antigravity device."

        Awhile back on slashdot, there were links to all sorts of bizarre things which people have patented. The specific one which comes to mind was a radio which communicated faster than light through "hyperspace".

        So it would seem that not all patent examiners necessarily agree with yo
  • salaries (Score:5, Interesting)

    by kaan ( 88626 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @05:41PM (#8875275)
    From the article:

    "The salaries of entry level patent examiners presently range from $32,819 to $70,959. Overtime is strongly encouraged after several months of experience is accrued, and it is not unusual for a junior examiner with three or four years experience to make more than $100,000 annually with overtime and bonuses."

    Sounds like they're trying pretty hard to entice people to become patent officers, because the pay scale seems abnormally high for a governmental job. Starting salaries up to $70k per year? Geeez.... Or maybe the salary range is required because the job sucks so much.
    • Re:salaries (Score:3, Interesting)

      by saddino ( 183491 )
      Actually, with the average pay for first year associates at DC law firms at over 100K, the pay for patent examiners doesn't seem so hot. IMHO, the government should increase the pay to intice good lawyers to work for the government instead.

      (now, compared to other government jobs, yes, you're right; it's a high salary)
      • Re:salaries (Score:2, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Patent examiners are not usually attorneys -- they are often engineers, biologists, and chemists.

        Patently Obvious [typepad.com]
      • Actually, with the average pay for first year associates at DC law firms at over 100K, the pay for patent examiners doesn't seem so hot. IMHO, the government should increase the pay to intice good lawyers to work for the government instead.

        Lawyers???? We don't need no darn lawyers at the patent office, we need qualified people in different fields to examine the patents and decide whether to grant them or not based on their merit.
        The only thing you'll get if you put lawyers there is junk that's correct

  • by empaler ( 130732 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @05:41PM (#8875277) Journal
    Then why the hell do companies have to write 'Patents Pending' on their products for decades? You'd think that incompetency of this sort would speed up the process.
    "Did a search on Google for some of the keywords in their description, but only a few thousand webpages came up... Patent Granted, next!"
    • by Tangurena ( 576827 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @06:04PM (#8875534)
      If you put Patent(s) Pending on a manufactured good, your competitors will not know what features may or may not be covered by a patent. Since patents are kept secret from the time filed to the time issued, no one really knows if there is a filed patent or not. One could be liable for treble damages if you knew that there was a patent, or a pending one when you copied it.

      The real problems for other manufacturers are the submarine patents, where the inventor keeps the application alive for 15 or so years, tweaking the application. Since there is an application pending, all other applications for the same thing get denied. An example would be single-chip-microprocessors. Since everyone in the industry tried to patent it and were denied, they assumed that it was not a patentable idea. Big surprise when the submarine came up to sink the industry. When I went to a police academy, we were taught never to assume anything. The saying goes, when you assume, you make an ass out of u and me.

      The big problem for the software industry is that there have been enterprising crooks filing patents based on obscure theses and books, hoping that no one notices it was plagiarized. The patent examiners are not stopping duplicate patents now, they want the user fees, and to the devil (err the courts) with the details.

      • Since patents are kept secret from the time filed to the time issued, no one really knows if there is a filed patent or not.

        Patent applications filed on or after November 2000 are published within 18 months of filing.
        See the USPTO notice [uspto.gov]

        Of course there are exceptions but a part of proving infringement is proving your competitors knew about the contents of the patent application. IANAL but if you delay the publication and didn't notify your competitors that they are possibly infringing, the judge will
        • Just a note re: the contents of your link:

          An application shall not be published if an applicant makes a request upon filing, certifying that the invention disclosed in the application has not and will not be the subject of an application filed in another country, or under a multilateral international agreement, that requires eighteen-month publication.

          So unfortunately, you can still keep things completely secret for a very long time, assuming you're willing to forgo patent protection in other jurisdicti
      • When I went to a police academy, we were taught never to assume anything.

        Isn't "probable cause" essentially a form of assumption?
  • This is exactly why I keep my anti-grav generator under wraps.
    • I love all of the jokes about antigravity devices. They are lovely. Curiously though not only have methods of developing antigravity been developed, they have in fact been demonstrated and are the focus of some research.

      The issue of antigravity efforts seems to center around scaling the demonstrations to a practical level. A considerable amount of natural evidence exists for antigravity functions as well. Tornados for example have clearly demonstrated this function.

      Essentially the issue seems to center

      • > Rather it appears that "Gravity" is an electromagnetic effect corresponding to a "Pressure" in a media.

        I suck at Physics, so I apologize if this a is a completely stupid or obvious question. Does something have more gravitational pull if it is compressed? IE, if the earth were compressed to the size of a basketball or something, would the gravity be roughly the same?
        Of course, I realize that gravity is measured from the center of the object, so you would have to be floating in space at the same radi
  • by cbj ( 3130 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @05:42PM (#8875291) Homepage
    When we graduated my wife received a job offer to work as a patent examiner. Despite the fact that she has a degree in computer science I do not believe it would prevent absurd and obvious invention patents from going through the system. As best as I can tell the examiners are limited to prior patent applications and official publications in searching for prior art. Little room seems to be reserved for common sense. Quite thankfully she did not accept the job offer because I didn't want to move to D.C. and the pay wasn't that great for someone with that degree.
    • As best as I can tell the examiners are limited to prior patent applications and official publications in searching for prior art. Little room seems to be reserved for common sense.

      I dunno... "Official publications" could cover a heck of a lot of ground...

      And besides, it's probably awfully hard to place a reliable date on unofficial publications... whatever that would mean. They have to guard against fraud.

      What do you mean by "common sense?"

    • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 15, 2004 @07:23PM (#8876312)
      As best as I can tell the examiners are limited to prior patent applications and official publications in searching for prior art.

      As a former USPTO examiner, I can say that it is not a matter of prior art availability. An examiner has pretty much all of the prior art they wish for in their examination. It is not just the old patent "shoes" and prior patents. Examiners have access to a large number of private databases, the Internet, foreign language translation services ... what have you.

      What is limited is the time the examiner has to thoroughly investigate all possibly relevant prior art. Patent examiners in the USPTO are subject to "productivity" expectations, and if they spend too much time on any particular application, then another application will suffer from insufficient review. Moreover, it is highly unlikely that any particular patent application will come back to bite them. The system (like many others) is geared toward looking at numbers and not quality.

      • There needs to be some better evaluation of the tradeoffs inherent in the process today.

        If we allow a greater scope of potentially patentable things, then we need to spend a lot more time in review, because the negative effects on innovation and the economy in general are potentially higher.

        On the other hand, limiting the scope would then allow for a looser process, for the same reasons I just mentioned.

        Since we seem to be heading toward a very wide scope, those that do get patents should have to work ha
  • by Nick of NSTime ( 597712 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @05:43PM (#8875293)
    I wonder what kind of technology patent examiners use. Probably ancient PCs running Internet Explorer 3.0 and a cached version of AltaVista from 1994.
  • Turnover (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Talking Toaster ( 695539 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @05:43PM (#8875295)
    Every examiner starts with his or her first patent application after receiving just two weeks of training

    So, what is the turnover rate at the USPO?
    What percentage of the examiners are seasoned examiners of patent applications etc.
    What percentage of the examiners have worked there for less than 2 years?
  • by StateOfTheUnion ( 762194 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @05:44PM (#8875309) Homepage
    I was talking to a lawyer about patent applications once . . . his comment was that they are always rejected on the first round, so it was best to actually not submit all documentation in the first round so that there would be additional documentation to submit during the second round. His claim was that patent employees are overworked and often underskilled (because they are required to have such a broad breadth of knowledge) and if they don't know a lot about the particular technology, they would reject the application based on some general ground rules . . . if you gave a lot of extra data, etc. in the resubmittal it would often go through. I don't know if this is a common practice and IANAL, but I think its more than a bit sad that a lawyer would have such a cynical view . . . and perhaps even more sad if the system is actually deserving of this cynical view.
    • by radiumhahn ( 631215 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @06:25PM (#8875726)
      I'm 4 years into a patent examination... I wish I could go back and reword some of the original text... You need to define everything upfront because they wont let you change your application other than to clarify better what you have already claimed. You'll have to file a new patent for anything extra. I am pretty sure I got a bad draw...one of the rookies... my advice is to use understandable claims that are phrased in a way that AI and indexing software will never find any matches... If you use popular words and phrasings you are asking for trouble.
  • On the inside (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Mateito ( 746185 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @05:44PM (#8875314) Homepage
    Sorry to disagree with the article, but the best way to get an inside look at a patent examener is with a blunt object.

    Yeah, I know its a hard job.. but even the worst fuck-up gets it right once in a while.

    The solution is simple. Pay the experts what they are worth to do the job. Just like they should with teachers. Its never going to happen.

    There is way too much money to be made in having IP control over an uneducated populace.
  • Possible Solution (Score:3, Interesting)

    by emacnabber ( 682085 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @05:46PM (#8875329)
    One thing I've thought about recently as a help to the patent problem is putting a cap on the number of patents granted each year. If only 25,000 patents are awarded per year (for example), that would in theory cut down on the number of crap patents. Atleast they would have to think a little longer about what really deserves a patent, and many people would be discouraged from filing if they knew there was a good chance it wouldn't get approved. Just an idea...
    • by cbcbcb ( 567490 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @05:52PM (#8875414)
      No. That way the chances of getting a patent approved are proportional to the number you submit, so big companies would file more, and smaller companies and sole inventors would be essentially unable to get patents.
      • OK, so split the quota into two.

        Limit X for sole propietorships, dual propietorships, and corporations having fewer than P employees.

        Limit Y for the rest.
    • Setting a quota would merely result in one of two problems:

      a flood of applications held till the "new year" began

      OR

      a massive backlog of applications that haven't been considered yet because 25,000 was already reached

      Why does each patent officer have to spread their knowledge so thinly? Wouldn't departments with specific fields of knowledge make more sense (i.e. a motors dept. and a plastic mold dept. and a computer/electronics dept.)?
  • by kclittle ( 625128 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @05:49PM (#8875383)
    Hi. My name is Mortimer, and I'd like to patent this very clever hat made of tin foil...

  • by malia8888 ( 646496 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @05:53PM (#8875423)
    I have come up with a pot that drains spaghetti, I wish I had the patent on it, I would be rich. Why, of course I thought of it first. But, from the article it clearly states: hires to do Many examiners are taught the "one palm rule," whereby if the independent claim is shorter than the palm of their hand, they should reject, reject, reject.

    Jeez, how many words do I have to use to say a pot with holes in the lid??:}

  • by GGardner ( 97375 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @05:56PM (#8875448)
    In the early days of the patent office, they used to require a working model. I think they should return to this requirement. In my experience, ideas themselves, which can be patented, aren't nearly as valuable as the implementation of those ideas. This would probably also cut down on a lot of bogus patent submissions.
    • So if I come up with some great idea, what is my motivation to share it with someone who can make it into something? Since I can't patent my idea, I have nothing to gain, and therefore short of some great sense of obligation to humanity why should I share my idea?

      The point of patents is that they give an incentive to invent by giving the inventor a time-limited monopoly on their idea. If there is no incentive to invent, why bother?
      • Because maybe you entered a contract with the manufacturer? I'd say that would guarantee you get a piece of the pie.

        There is plenty of incentive to invent things without a 70 year copyright. Back when it was 10 years that argument would be valid. Right now a copyright doesn't serve its intended purpose since it still screws somebody. It was originally designed to allow everyone to benefit from an advance while giving the inventor compensation. During the earlier years if you invented something you'd keep

        • Patents are generally good for 20 years from the date of application, and are for ideas, methods, etc.

          Copyrights are different, and apply to the original expression of an idea.

          That's the simplest way to put it anyway.
          • Both are being dragged out. Albeit, copyrights more successfully but there is a debate going on right now to extend patents as well. It will happen assuming research doesn't continue to get banned in U.S.

            Ironic new stem cell research cannot be conducted int he U.S. so the Pentagon pays for it to be done in Switzerland among other places. Nice to see government money well spent, too bad its not on researchers willing to do it here.

      • So if I come up with some great idea, what is my motivation to share it with someone who can make it into something?

        If you can't build it, how do you know it is such a good idea?

      • Why wouldn't you? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by mdfst13 ( 664665 )
        "why should I share my idea?"

        Why not? If you aren't going to implement it, why not share it? Right now, it costs thousands of dollars to put through a patent application. If you think you might get a patent, you have a strong incentive not to tell anyone (hard to prove that they didn't have the idea first if they file first). Thus, the current system provides a strong incentive for people who do not have the resources to get a patent to keep quiet.

        How many patents are actually sold that way? How many
        • My cousin's wife has an idea that she would like see implemented. In the current system, she keeps quiet in the hope that someday she'll be able to patent it. Without patents, she would have no incentive to keep it quiet and would talk it over or send an email to the appropriate manufacturer in the hope of getting a few free samples (it's a disposable product, so individual items are very cheap).

          And you see nothing wrong with that? Today, your cousin's wife has a chance to make a little money. Get by. Pay
          • "Today, your cousin's wife has a chance to make a little money. Get by. Pay the bills. Receive tangible benefit from the product of her insight. In your world, the best she could do would be to hope for the charity of [hand waving] some random company. And y'know, companies aren't all that charitable."

            I find it very unlikely that she will ever have enough money to patent it. If she tried, she might find that there was prior art (it is common sense obvious from existing products). Even if not, she would s
    • they used to require a working model. I think they should return to this requirement

      And how would you verify that the working model actually implements what is claimed? For example I could patent my new compression algorithm accompanied by 100,000 lines of heavily commented code, test suites etc. Could you establish if my new algorithm is actually in there? If part of it is present, is that ok? Could you tell?

    • In the early days of the patent office, they used to require a working model.
      This is actually how the Smithsonian Institution first started. The Patent Office was overflowing with gizmoes and once they dropped the requirement for a working model, they unloaded all that junk to the Smithsonian...
  • *All* Positions? (Score:3, Informative)

    by illuminatedwax ( 537131 ) <stdrange@alumni. ... u ['go.' in gap]> on Thursday April 15, 2004 @05:57PM (#8875460) Journal
    "All examining positions require at least a bachelor's degree in computer science, physical science or engineering"

    Apparently a bachelor's degree ain't what it used to be...
    --Stephen
    • Well it isn't. Just looking at a portion of my acquaintances, all the ones currently on higher wages than the rest entered the industry with no university degree. These days a Bachelors degree is an optional feature when it comes to job hiring because three years experience in the field would have given you far better qualifications.
  • Supervisor: Hey, take a look at this patent application.

    Examiner: Let me see... [thinking] mmmm... `One Click Shopping'... what on earth is that!!!... Oops, shouldn't show that I didn't understand anything about it... passing things this way and that... there's something about saving... should be a cool way to save money... it's a tough one to figure out, and quite lenghy too... they won't write all this for a trivial one... better approve it and get rid of it... [after an hour of empty gazing] Yes, tha

  • We already have lots of patents for perpetual motion machines, apparently.
  • Thoughts... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Audacious ( 611811 ) on Thursday April 15, 2004 @06:13PM (#8875603) Homepage
    Now that the Patent Office [uspto.gov] has kindly placed a lot of patents into their database; they should begin the process of writing programs which help them to eliminate patents based upon (if nothing else) their documentation.

    I would think the rejection of Patents would fall into a few categories: 1)Bad Spelling, 2)Bad Grammar, 3)Bad Idea. Once these are past - THEN - the object could be compared against pre-existing documents.

    I know there are probably millions of documents which might match a new document but, like Google, they could be pared down based upon how closely they look like another invention. Google has how many servers and how many pages to look at and decide upon? Yet you get feedback in only a few seconds. Why not base how the PTO works on Google's model? The PTO could even sell priority for first consideration to companies. ;-)

    Truly though, since every invention has to be written up, and since we already know that millions of pages can (and are) rejected by a good search engine - this is what the PTO really needs.

    Which brings up the question: How many patents are filed for items which are not really in that category? Like an idea for a game which might overlap how something is done in the real world. Would that patent be enforceable because it was already given out? Or does the fact that the patent is filed in different categories mean that you can patent something which has already been patented - but in a different category? So a toothbrush used by a robotic servant (and is a part of the robot itself) can be patented separately from a regular, toothbrush which is held in the hand?

    If the former - then that cuts down on the number of patents which has to be searched. Otherwise, all of the patents have to be searched. Which is why it becomes so hard to determine the merits of a given patent. A good search engine though - could shave a lot of time off of how long it would take to determine the merits of any given patent.

    This does not, however, eliminate the need for people who are smart enough to know that a flashlight is still a flashlight. No matter if it is called a flashlight or an object which emits a beam of light. This too (the phrase "an object which emits light") should become a part of the search engine. Or, in other words, you create a relational database which relates single words to phrases so the search engine can make better judgement calls. :-)

    Just a few thoughts.
  • If only Einstein was around today to comment.

    I've searched and can find no opinion expressed by him on patents.

    Can anyone give some thoughts as to why this seems to be, or find evidence to the contury?
  • Some 4 years ago, in my previous company we submited a software patent (the investors insisted we apply for lots of patents) that most likely landed on a first-timer inside the PTO. It was clear that he did not had a clue about computer architecture, when we challenged we got routed directly to his supervisor who was probably pretty pissed of about having to do his subordinate work. As far as I can tell the examiner algorithm is: 1) read patent application, mark words you don't understand. 2) goggle such w
  • is to change the limit of how long a patent lasts for to date of filing, not date of grant.

    For 99.99% of patents, the time between filing and grant is a small time (and so the time period before the patent expires) could be extended by said small time.
    But it would put an end to peope who attempt to delay granting by backhand tricks (in an attempt to hide their patent)

    • See 35 USC 154 [cornell.edu], specifically section (a)(2).

      The term of a patent is 20 years from the filing date assuming it is granted. It used to be 17 years from the issue date, but they changed it precisely because of that reason.
  • by Stephen Samuel ( 106962 ) <samuel@NOsPaM.bcgreen.com> on Thursday April 15, 2004 @08:45PM (#8876909) Homepage Journal
    They should change the way that the patent office is run. They should get a base ammount, based on how much work they're doing now, then they should only get to keep money for patents that they deny.

    That should at least give them some incentive to not pass questionable patents or even opaque ones.

    • Good idea... I think the our criminal justice system should implement the same idea where they only get paid for the criminals that they convict. We don't need a lot of guilty people running around making this world an unsafe place to live in.

      That should at least give them some incentive not to let dangerous criminals walk our steets.
    • they do kind of. there is a 700 filing fee and the pto keeps it whether the patent gets issued or not.

      • Right now, the patent system is mandated to make a profit. The way that they do this is by encouraging companies to make as many patent applications as possible, and processing them as quickly as possible. Of course one thing that encourages companies to make applications is a high acceptance rate -- then, of course there are the extra fees for a successful application.

        This is why we're getting patents on things like breathing --- The patent office is now a government profit centre. It's gone from bei

  • All I wanted to point out is that this stuff shouldn't really surprise anyone. Which 16 year old in the US isn't hoping they get the lazy hungover driving examiner instead of someone that takes their job super-seriously? Have you ever been to the post office looking for lost mail? Same story- some people say 'nope, it's gone', others say 'fill out this form', and still others might get off their chair for you.

    Anyway, that being said, the trademark side of the PTO works just the same. If I could count t
  • Patent thickets need cutting [theinquirer.net]

    By INQUIRER staff : Donnerstag 15 April 2004, 14:03

    *A CONFERENCE* chaired by the Federal Trade Commission, the National Academy of Sciences and the Berkeley Center for Law and Technology kicks off in California in a few hours time.

    The idea is reform the patent system without stopping innovation, but the industry is along there in the shape of giants Intel, Microsoft, Symantec and others, and we're sure they'll try to pursue their own agenda.

    There will also be representatives from the European Patent Office and the US Patent and Trademark Office.

    Luckily, they are counterbalanced by legal organisations and academics.

    The agenda for the workshop is here http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/workshops/patentsystem/pate ntsystemagenda.pdf [ftc.gov], and there's a very lengthy discussion document about proposed reform on the FTC site, here http://www.ftc.gov/os/2003/10/innovationrpt.pdf [ftc.gov].

    The FTC document proposes a number of changes to the current system including a new admin procedure to challenge a patent's validity without having to go to law, allowing courts to find patents invalid on the preponderance of evidence rather than clear and convincing evidence, and the limiting of awards of "treble" damages.

    It's pretty clear that for many large companies, patent actions have become a wing of marketing. Kicking off big patent cases can tie a smaller competitor up for years as the painful battle continues through the courts. Let's hope sanity prevails. But don't hold your breath for that.

    Day 1: Thursday, April 15, 2004 at the Bancroft Hotel
    1. 12:00 - 1:00 pm, Press Conference
    - Mark Myers: NAS & Xerox Corporation
    - Commissioner Mozelle Thompson: FTC
    1:30 - 3:00 pm
    Overview of the Patent System and FTC Proposal for Reform
    - Susan DeSanti: Senior Policy Analyst, FTC
    - Prof. Peter Menell: BCLT & Boalt Hall School of Law
    - Prof. Robert Merges: BCLT & Boalt Hall School of Law
    Day 2: Friday, April 16, 2004 at the Bancroft Hotel
    8:00 - 8:30 am
    Opening Remarks
    - Dean Designate Chris Edley: Boalt Hall School of Law
    - Robert Merges of BCLT and Boalt Hall School of Law
    - Mark Myers: NAS & Xerox Corporation
    - Commissioner Mozelle Thompson: FTC
    8:30 - 9:40 am, Non-obviousness Panel (Reinvigorating the Non-obviousness Standard)
    - Rochelle Dreyfuss: New York University
    - Rebecca Eisenberg: University of Michigan
    - Ron Laurie: Inflexion Point Strategy, LLC
    9:45-11:00 am, Opposition and Post-Grant Review Panel
    - Robert Blackburn: Chiron Corporation
    - Prof. Joe Farrell: Economics, UC Berkeley (CPC)
    - Bronwyn Hall: Economics, UC Berkeley
    - Dietmar Harhoff: European Patent Office
    - Steve Kunin: Patent and Trademark Office
    - Prof. Robert Merges: BCLT & Boalt Hall School of Law
    - Douglas Norman: Eli Lilly
    11:00 - 11:15 am, Break
    11:15 am - 12:45 pm, Litigation Panel (Including Presumption of Validity)
    - Mark Janis: University of Iowa
    - Mark Lemley: BCLT & Boalt Hall School of Law
    - Lynn Pasahow: Fenwick & West
    - James Pooley: Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy
    - Matthew Powers: Weil Gotshal & Manges
    - Arti Rai: Duke University
    12:45-2:00 pm., Lunch
    2:00 - 3:45 pm, Industry/Institutional Issues Panel
    - Carl Shapiro: Haas School of Business, UC Berkeley (co-moderator)
    - Commissioner Mozelle Thompson: FTC (co-moderator)
    - Robert Baechtold: Fitzpatrick Cella Harper and Scinto & AIPLA
    - Robert Barr: CISCO
    - Bart Eppenauer: Microsoft
    - Sean Johnston: Genentech
    - Jay Monahan: eBay
    - Ron Myrick: Finnegan, Henderson, Farabow, Garrett & Dunner
    - Kulpreet Rana: Google
    - Robert Sacoff: Pattishall, McAuliffe & ABA IP Section
    - David Simon: Intel Corporation
    - Herb Wamsley: Intellectual Property Owners
    3:45-4:00 p.m., Concluding Remarks
    Commissioner Mozelle Thompson

  • PUBPAT Challenges Microsoft Patent to Protect Competition in Software Markets [pubpat.org]

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

    April 15, 2004

    PUBPAT challenges microsoft patent to protect competition in software markets: Patent Office Shown New Evidence Proving FAT Technology was Obvious

    NEW YORK -- The Public Patent Foundation filed a formal request with the United States Patent and Trademark Office today to revoke Microsoft Corporation's patent on the FAT File System, touted by Microsoft as being "the ubiquitous format used fo

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