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Privacy Technology

NYT on RFID Tags 479

Posted by michael from the close-shave dept.
indros13 writes "The NY Times is running a story on the radio tagging of merchandise. Companies like Gillette want to make sure their razors are in stock and stores like Wal-Mart want to make sure you can find your paisley panties, size 10. But what happens to privacy when everything you buy can be tracked from store floor to door?"
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NYT on RFID Tags More

NYT on RFID Tags

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  • doh! (Score:5, Funny)

    by shadwwulf ( 145057 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:42PM (#5381492) Homepage
    My cross dressing days are over! Everybody will know I'm wearing paisley panties!
    • how did slashdot know what size you wear?

  • I just want... (Score:5, Funny)

    by swordboy ( 472941 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:43PM (#5381496) Journal
    I think that it'd be cool if my Hello Kitty stuffed animal could identify things via RFID...

    Basketball: Hello Kitty!
    Kitty: Hello Basketball!

  • is this really a privacy concern? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rtphokie ( 518490 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:43PM (#5381502)
    These retailers are more than welcome to track anything and everything until I've paid for it because until that point, it belongs to them.

    • Re:is this really a privacy concern? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Dr.Enormous ( 651727 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:48PM (#5381551)
      Well, the question is whether they'll be deactivated after you've paid for it. Because I'm not seeing a whole lot of incentive for retailers to bother to do that, and if people are walking around with these things on them, somebody will eventually decide to make use of it; it's only a matter of time.
      • If not, the next time someone walks into Wal-Mart wearing paisley panties and carrying a Gilette razor, someone will know.
      • Also, can they be completely deactivated, so that even unusual equipment cannot track your stuff everywhere.

        Weight Watchers talking sign: 'Sir, we notice you've been buying bigger blue jeans lately. How about stepping in to your local Weight Watchers center?'

      • Re:is this really a privacy concern? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Mattsson ( 105422 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @07:00PM (#5382896) Journal
        Why not simply put them on stickers that you can put on the box or on the thing itsels, or on those little paper tags with size and brand that always are attached to clothes?
        That way you could physicaly remove the tag once you're home.
        There is absolutely *no* reason what so ever to put the rfid in the product itself!

    • That's not really the problem. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by FreeLinux ( 555387 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:56PM (#5381632)
      Sure, they can and perhaps, should track any and everything in their store. The problem is that RFIDs are not deactivated. They continue to work forever. Or, at least until the washer has worn out your panties.

      The fact that they continue to work for a very long time and the fact that they are, or can be, completely unique means that a store can identify YOU by your panties. National chains such as Walmart could track YOU and your panties all across the country. Suddenly they don't sound very nice, do they.

      Now, let's take the paranoia to a slightly higher level. Let's suppose that stores share their RFID and customer databases with trustworthy groups like, NSA CIA, FBI, SpamKing marketing. Suddenly You and your panties are trackable in every store you go to, or security checkpoint you pass through or toll booth you drive through. Now you can't go anywhere without the beadie little eye of some agency watching you at all times.

      Did you ever get the feeling that you were being watched?

      • Re:That's not really the problem. (Score:5, Funny)

        by dr_dank ( 472072 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @05:15PM (#5381801) Homepage Journal
        Suddenly You and your panties are trackable in every store you go to

        Taking this suggestion [slashdot.org] from the automobile tire RFID thread, why not just swap panties with strangers?

        Take THAT Big Brother!

      • Re:That's not really the problem. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by stinky wizzleteats ( 552063 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @05:17PM (#5381817) Homepage Journal

        Did you ever get the feeling that you were being watched?

        Usually in these arguments, I'm on the same side you are, but according to the article, the RFID is on the package, not the actual merchandise. This is different from embedding them in tires.

        This is a good thing on many fronts. First of all, it creates the possibility that I can buy something without having a cashier see what it is and a computer monitor display the description in bright screaming colors (or, worse yet, text to speech). Moreover, this has the chance to obviate the checkout procedure altogether. Who wouldn't consider that a giant step forward?

        There is also the problem of privacy motivated shoplifting, which is the reason why preparation H is the most shoplifted piece of merchandise in the country.

      • Okay, I have the solution people:

        Everyone take of all of your clothes right now, and find the nearest microwave!

      • The fact that they continue to work for a very long time and the fact that they are, or can be, completely unique means that a store can identify YOU by your panties.

        I think the term, "going commando", will take on a whole new meaning.

      • There are solutions (Score:4, Insightful)

        by siskbc ( 598067 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @06:02PM (#5382322) Homepage
        You are right, of course. The idea that anyone would try to make a national panty database sounds ridiculous, but they've done more ridiculous things. I think a law or something stipulating that they have to be removed/deactivated before you leave the store would work. But I don't see *that* happening.

        The thing is, there are situations where you will want it to keep working after you leave. Like you return the item, but you don't have your receipt, like it said in the article (yeah, I RTFA! :>) It would be great if the RFID from the item was stored with the purchase price in the database. And that necessitates the thing staying alive.

        So stores WILL be able to determine your buying history if you use a CC to pay(Grocery stores do now - with that little card they extorted you into giving them each time). And I bet the RFID manufacturer ends up selling these things in consecutive runs of ID #'s - making it EASY for the feds to determine where the panties were bought and to correlate them with a CC#, then a mailing address, etc.

        So what do we do? I think consumers will need to educate themselves a bit - especially with regard to where they buy clothing. We will need a privacy policy law like with the net. Try to pay for clothing with cash. And the greatest hope, I swear to God, will be sensationalist journalism. Even regular people will be creeped out by the idea of being tracked by their underwear. And you know Dateline or one of those crappy shows will do a thing on it if the NYTimes is on it now.

        Also, I plan on using a big fscking magnet on my clothes from now on. 5 Tesla should work ;)

    • Exactly. Also, they already tracked what's on the shelves, and what is purchased at the register, so the only new information is
      1) more timely info on what's on the shelves, and
      2) where you go in the store with their merchandise before you take it to the register.

  • Are they not already tracking you? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by redneck_kiwi ( 267118 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:43PM (#5381504)
    Let's face it, every time you use a credit card, atm card, check card etc they have you tracked. The only way I see it is to either not purchase anything or to always pay cash - obviously neither is an option.

    Better would be severe restrictions on what the merchants can gather about you, and, your name should not be part of that data gathering.

    • Re:Are they not already tracking you? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Spudley ( 171066 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:54PM (#5381613) Homepage Journal
      either not purchase anything or to always pay cash - obviously neither is an option

      Why obviously? There are plenty of people in this world who don't have credit cards. Some by choice, and many because they've got a credit blacklisting of some kind.

      These people pay cash for everything. Obviously it can be done.
    • or to always pay cash
      Sweet creeping Jebus, man, are you kidding me?! They can track that green better than They can track, like, missiles and shit! You've seen those little "strips" in there, man, you know you have! Hell, one flyby of a satellite, and They know precisely how much money you have down to the dollar! And with those new BlueTooth bills that talk to appliances and cars, They can tell where you're going before you even get there, man, and They're, like, changing prices of stuff based on what the bills say you've purchased before, and then charging you just a bit more every damned time! You wear gloves, don't you? I mean, don't even get me started on how effective those bills get when you actually allow a fingerprint on them. Hang it up. Oh, and don't piss in public restrooms either, man! They're onto that shit too!

      </obparanoidrant> =)

  • Size 10? (Score:4, Funny)

    by jayayeem ( 247877 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:43PM (#5381506)
    I'm guessing most /. readers wear much larger paisley panties.

  • hmm radio tags... (Score:4, Funny)

    by cosmic_whiner ( 472167 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:44PM (#5381512)
    So, does this mean that the (in)famous walmart $300 PC now sells with built in 802.11???

  • Privacy? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Maeryk ( 87865 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:44PM (#5381515) Journal
    Nothing happens to your privacy when tracked from floor to door, as long as it ends there.

    I dont know where you guys shop, but the 17 year old moron or the "hire the handicapped" person at the checkout at stuff-mart looks at every single thing I buy.

    You have _no_ right to "privacy" if you are patronizing someones store. Deal with it.

    (This isnt meant to be a flame.. it is meant to point out that they track everything you buy anyway, and almost guaranteed, if you use credit or debit cards, there is a file SOMEWHERE that lists everything you bought, if you dont, like me, get that list on your statement every month.)

    Now.. if the RFID tags follow you home.. thats another issue. But the show I saw on it. (Tech Tv? Might have been?) Did not seem to think that was possible.. they are a direct scan sort of thing, rather than a "scan from black helicopter" sort of thing.

    Maeryk
    • Well, there is the small matter of RFID tags being embedded in tires, and used to monitor traffic patterns via sensors built into major roadways...

    • How to do it privately. (Score:5, Informative)

      by deathcow ( 455995 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:57PM (#5381643)
      A certain chain of stores up here in Alaska allow one to stuff their cart to bustin', then walk up to a U-Check-Out stand.

      You scan all the items yourself and you can even pay by cash if you want, the machine has a bill acceptor. The checkout stands even have the sensormatic deal, so you can cancel an items tendancy to set off the "I'm Stealing" beep at the door.

      Here's a pic of one, with an article I havent read [monroemonitor.com]

    • Re:Privacy? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by ergo98 ( 9391 )
      You have _no_ right to "privacy" if you are patronizing someones store. Deal with it.

      Well one issue I have with it is the cost (a cost which each and every one of us will bear. While people will say "Yeah, but it'll be made up in reduced shoplifting", realize that shoplifting generally is dramatically less of a economic hit for retailers than you've been led to believe. They lose far more to employees taking stock home or skimming the tills): Currently the RFID tags, for those who didn't read the NYT article (i.e. most of you), cost $0.30US a piece, with the price expected to drop to $0.05US. Add in the cost of the detection equipment (they're talking about every rack having a detector so it can monitor stock and "alert security" if several items are taken at once...hope you shop every week and don't dare buy multiple items at once), the IT infrastructure: These sorts of things end up cost tens or hundreds of billions of dollars.

      This isnt meant to be a flame.. it is meant to point out that they track everything you buy anyway, and almost guaranteed, if you use credit or debit cards, there is a file SOMEWHERE that lists everything you bought, if you dont, like me, get that list on your statement every month

      Your credit card or debit card company knows what you bought? Funny, but mine don't. They see that I spent $107 at Fortinos and $89 at Walmart, but they DON'T see that I bought Lays BBQ chips and a big tub of jellybeans, and Walmart doesn't see what I bought at Fortinos and vice versa.

      • Re:Privacy? (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Maeryk ( 87865 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @05:12PM (#5381770) Journal
        Your credit card or debit card company knows what you bought? Funny, but mine don't. They see that I spent $107 at Fortinos and $89 at Walmart, but they DON'T see that I bought Lays BBQ chips and a big tub of jellybeans, and Walmart doesn't see what I bought at Fortinos and vice versa.

        Sears and JC Penney specifically, give me an itemized list on my statement of what was purchased. (This can be QUITE handy for things like warranty issues, and also when the card gets used fraudulently).

        Maeryk

    • Re:Privacy? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by vrmlguy ( 120854 )
      [RFID tags] are a direct scan sort of thing, rather than a "scan from black helicopter" sort of thing.

      Sure, that's what they want you to think. ;-) It says here [informationweek.com] that some RFID tags can be read up to 300 feet away. (Alien Technology says its RFID tags can be read up to 15 feet away, but it would not be difficult to build a beefier transmitter and a more sensitive receiver that would make the range far greater.) <PARANOIA MODE=ON>The tags can supposedly be easily destroyed via a reader, but it's pretty easy to design an RC-timer circuit [electronics123.com] that would just deactivate it for a period of time.</PARANOIA>

    • Re:Privacy? (Score:5, Informative)

      by SecurityGuy ( 217807 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @05:26PM (#5381904)
      Most of the time stores I patronize don't ask. When they do, I say "No" and keep on going. Some day I'm sure it'll get interesting, but so far the industry stuff I've read seems to indicate that you'd better be pretty damn sure your "suspect" is a shoplifter before you detain them. Detaining me for telling them I'm not going to let them inspect the merchandise I've *already paid for* is likely to cost them more than the merchandise cost me. In any case, I'm more than willing to force the issue and tell 'em to get out of the way or call the police. I'd love to see what they'd charge me with. Failure to prove I paid for the stuff I just paid for at another store employee 30 seconds ago?


      I do have a right to privacy when patronizing their store. They can't strip search me, they can't search through my property, they can't search my bags from other stores even if they put up signs saying they can. Such signs are unenforceable and serve no purpose other than to dupe the ignorant into thinking the store has a right to treat them like cattle. Rights, you see, are largely things which someone in the past has had the backbone to stand up for and insist upon.

  • You don't have an RFID tag, and they're item-type specific anyway, not item-specific (ie, they might say you're carrying a pink size-16 thong, but not which thong and they don't know who you are)

    There are things in this world to be legitimately paranoid about, but this isn't one of them.

    Move along.
    • nope, rfid is item-specific. why else would companies be ordering a half a billion tags (near the bottom of the first page of the article)? that's what's scary about rfid. i'm not sure how many bits a rfid tag can store, but it could easily be 256 (that'd only be 32 bytes). 2^256 is about 10^77, there are only 10^80 particles in the universe, so it would be easy with rfid to tag every possible thing.

    • Re:Nothing happens to your privacy... (Score:4, Funny)

      by kenthorvath ( 225950 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @05:21PM (#5381863)
      Yes, but now I can eliminate bad date choices with my minature RFID scanner. I can choose only the women wearing the black thongs. Now, does no signal mean nothing at all?
    • The EPC spec has all those bits so the instances of objects can be tracked. An EPC is broken down into four sections:

      bits 00-07 = header
      bits 08-35 = manufacturer (EPC Manager)
      bits 36-59 = Object Class
      bits 60-95 = Serial Number

      There's another EPC, the Compact EPC, that's only 64 bits long, because the longer bit length translates into higher-cost tags.

      So saying that RFID tags are -not- instance specific is incorrect. They can be (and the EPC is designed to be) instance specific, but it's up to the manufacturer.

      http://www.autoidcenter.org/research/MIT-AUTOID- WH -002.pdf
      http://www.autoidcenter.org/research/MIT -AUTOID-WH -008.pdf

  • You people are waay to paranoid (Score:3, Funny)

    by cscx ( 541332 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:45PM (#5381521) Homepage
    Wait till they start radio-tagging the tinfoil hats. [rice.edu] Then you won't know what the hell to do, will ya?
  • There's no privacy to lose, it's all their stuff until you get past the register with it.

    You guys have got the paranoia setting just a little bit too high these days..
  • But what happens to privacy when everything you buy can be tracked from store floor to door?

    Ummm, they'll know when people are stealing their merchandise?? I'm not sure what you were going for with that one, but you really need to loosen up that tin foil hat.
  • RadioShack makes a small profit selling a wand to disable such devices, until a court order forces them to stop. Fortunatly, for businesses, RadioShack insists on always taking down personal information when you buy things, so the police easily acquire a complete list of criminals and arrest the lot of them.
    • RadioShack makes a small profit selling a wand to disable such devices, until a court order forces them to stop. Fortunatly, for businesses, RadioShack insists on always taking down personal information when you buy things, so the police easily acquire a complete list of criminals and arrest the lot of them.

      Havent shopped at Ratshack lately have you? They no longer demand that info. (What I really love is they asked me taht crap every single time, and never ONCE did I get their catalog.. even when I asked for them to send them to me.)

      Apparently, bitching and moaning from concerned masses like us have stopped them from asking for personal info when buying in cash.

      Maeryk

      • Even when they did demand it, they had no way to tell if you gave an accurate answer or not. Occasionally when a salesclerk asks me for my name, they recognize Vladimir Ulyanov, but even when they do, they're happy to accept it for their computer.
    • that's baloney. if you pay cash you don't have to give out your information, and if you're buying something that you intend to commit a crime with I think you would want to keep that to yourself.
  • ...is to reduce their loss to shop-lifters.
    The marketing issues involved they can track via their sales registers, they have no need for radio tracking to gain this stuff. Why do you think they ask for your zip code or phone number at many shops when you are at checkout, and why grocery stores have those little "savings" cards...

  • Where can I get my..... (Score:5, Funny)

    by dan g ( 30777 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:47PM (#5381544) Homepage
    ...Faraday shopping bag?

  • 1% (Score:3, Insightful)

    by $$$$$exyGal ( 638164 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:48PM (#5381549) Homepage Journal
    Typically, 15 percent of shoppers leave clothing stores without getting what they want; during the test, fewer than 1 percent of Gap shoppers left empty-handed.

    How in the world can that be true? Sometimes I go into a Gap store just to use the bathroom. Other times I walk through it just to get to the other side of the mall. What if I'm with a group of friends, and only one of us makes a purchase? What about my poor boyfriends of yesteryear who were just there to hold my bags ;-)?

    1%? I don't believe it. Just like 100% of voters voted for Saddam.

    --sex [slashdot.org]

    • Re:1% (Score:3, Informative)

      by Maeryk ( 87865 )
      How in the world can that be true? Sometimes I go into a Gap store just to use the bathroom. Other times I walk through it just to get to the other side of the mall. What if I'm with a group of friends, and only one of us makes a purchase? What about my poor boyfriends of yesteryear who were just there to hold my bags ;-)?

      I suspect "shoppers" specifically means people in the gap for the purpose of purchasing something. Walkthroughs and chain-gang shopping are probably not counted. It is meant, I suspect, to highlight the fact that they can FIND what you want. Even if your 36-34 pants are mixed into the womens jeans on the other side of the store, a single RFID query going "where the hell are you" would locate the one they _know_ they have in stock, but some jerk put on the wrong shelf.

      Maeryk
    • I'm more suspicious about the first statistic. I'd be surprised if 85% of shoppers actually kow what they want. I often go into shops looking for inspiration, and I've never found it...

  • Checkpoint is the Leader (Score:3, Informative)

    by pgrote ( 68235 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:48PM (#5381552) Homepage
    Checkpoint [checkpointsystems.com] is the leader in the industry. They have been at this the longest and have developed a very system [checkpointsystems.com] for handling all the backend as well.

    Many of their early success stories [checkpointsystems.com] have been libraries. Having been a customer of a library that uses this it's very cool ... not so much for loss prevention, but for availability and auditing of book inventory.

  • Let's see . . .

    Pay cash is the first countermeasure.

    Second, get the merchandise into a metal lined container, like maybe the trunk of your car?

    Third, move the shielded items a far distance from where they were last "tracked", like your home (just a suggestion).

    Fourth, remove the tags (this step can be moved higher in the list). Enhanse this step by dropping them in trash containers of your enemies/tormentors.

    Yes, all of this is worthless if you are convinced that the, easily removed, mylar strips in your US money is tagged too.
    • Yes, all of this is worthless if you are convinced that the, easily removed, mylar strips in your US money is tagged too.

      I dont know about the Mylar strip. (Though I did watch someone ruin a 100 dollar bill proving it could be "Removed" once.) But I suspect the "new money" that will be arriving relatively soon, (no.. not big face bills.. an entire retooling) will serve two purposes: 1 Enhanced Tracking 2) Get all those mattresses empty and get the money back into circulation.

      Keep an eye on this one.. especially if you have old bills floating around. Rumor has it that there will be a cash-in period and after that, all "old" money (paper) will be devalued entirely.

      (Not paranoid. this has been in the works for years)

      maeryk

      • I dont know about the Mylar strip. (Though I did watch someone ruin a 100 dollar bill proving it could be "Removed" once.)

        Umm, I did it with $20s frequently. Pull up the end of the strip, then pul straight out, i.e., not ripping up across the bill, out as in the direction the strip is already "pointing".

        Anyway, it is not a tracking device and you are never getting an effective tracking device installed into a bill anyway.

  • I don't see how this maters in privacy (Score:3, Insightful)

    by DarkOx ( 621550 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:48PM (#5381560) Journal
    I assume these tags are removed when you purchase the item and leave the store so how is this any differnet from when you check out? I assume most of use are not yet such fanatics that you only use cash for purchases right? Because you do realize that if you use credit or debit its not at all hard for a merchant to log your purchases and equate them with your name. I doubt most of them do but still. Why does it matter if they know you're carring it around the store when they are gonna find out you have it at the register anyway? Unless you don't plan to visit the register and mother tought you stealing was wrong right?

  • thwarting big bruvver (Score:5, Funny)

    by Spudley ( 171066 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:49PM (#5381564) Homepage Journal
    But what happens to privacy when everything you buy can be tracked from store floor to door?

    If you're really worried about them tracking your RF tags, try mailling them to Siberia or something. If they really are watching you, that ought to get their attention.

    *bzzt* rf-control to watcher-one. he is currently travelling on a fed-ex jet to moscow with his latest consignment of razor blades. over" *bzzt*
    *bzzt* "roger rf-control. will continue tracking and advise, over" *bzzt*

  • Hey, look on the bright side... (Score:5, Funny)

    by bovilexics ( 572096 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:49PM (#5381566) Homepage

    There actually could be some benefits to this. With this type of technology you could find many upsides such as:

    • Never having to worry about losing things like remote controls, car keys, and pets (wearing a collar with an RFID of course).
    • Know who is at your doorstep without the use peepholes or cameras.
    • Being able to be at the office and say, "Hey, going commando again today, huh? It's not even casual Friday."

    The possiblities are endless! Embrace the benifits of new technology, it's all for your own good.

    Ok, I'm done - sarcasm off. I still think the office thing would be fun though.

    • Never having to worry about losing things like remote controls, car keys, and pets (wearing a collar with an RFID of course).

      Yesterdays "tech of tomorrow" (I think) had an interesting segment on how they are using "smart chips" in horses these days. Specifically, thoroughbred racing horses that can be easily confused for one another at sales. (they had two who were sold under the wrong names, and then proceeded to run under crossed names for at least five races before anyone figured it out).

      This is kind of a neat technology, because if it is applied here as it is being applied in the UK, it makes it DAMN hard to steal horses. As of now, you have to wave the "reader" right over the chip to get the unique identifier from the horse, but I could see where this could be amplified to find, say, stolen horses.

      Maeryk

  • RFID tags are the least of my worries. At least that tracking stops at the store's door. The range on an RFID tag is pretty limited. The important thing is how you paid for the purchase...

    I recently got a letter from my credit card company, which broke down by percentage, etc, what I bought and what it was for. Travel, entertainment, food, pr0n, etc. I find that truly terrifying.

    If you're paranoid and want to leave the grid, pay cash for everything.
  • First, would this make theft pretty much impossible? If there's a chance that products a & b can be tracked even while in the store, it would look pretty obvious if they don't wind up at a check-out counter or tied to anyone's check, credit, or cash payment. I suppose that's a good side to that.

    On a worse thought though, there have already been stories about making a massive "Total Information Awareness" database to monitor everyone and everyone's interaction with everyone else, what they do, what they buy, and so on, and with recent events from eBay showing that when it comes down to making money and looking patriotic, what will it take for *my* shopping habbits to be turned over to some government megaubercomputer somewhere so they can run a program and determine if the number of cases of Pepsi I buy every couple of weeks, and clothing every couple times a year, puts me in one of those "suspicious" categories or not.

    I don't believe I should be investigated or tracked if I haven't done anything wrong.
  • What happens to privacy when everything you buy can be tracked from inside the store to the door?

    You left the privacy of your own home to go to their store. They could just install 100 cameras on the ceiling and hire a staff of thousands to watch everyone's every move. Or they can RFID things. One of those options would make a gallon of milk cost $10, the other leaves the cost at $3. Neither are especially infringing upon anyone's privacy.

  • Safe until you pay, so use cash (Score:3, Insightful)

    by phorm ( 591458 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:51PM (#5381588) Journal
    If you're walking around the store with RFID tagged merchandise... it doesn't matter. Nothing tags that RFID to you in particular. However - as is mentioned - once you pay, they could tag the RFID to your customer card, the name on your credit card/debit card, whatever. But really, the could do the same with barcodes, etc.

    Otherwise, you could wear a similar frequency device near the tags to stymie them...
    Cordless phones, two-way radios, local wireless networks and other communications devices...can interfere with the signals...waves have a hard time penetrating metals and liquids

    In the end though, paying cash is probably your best bet at not being ID'ed... until the hidden RFID in your boxers tells them who you are, that is.

  • Stoor floor to door? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by stratjakt ( 596332 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:51PM (#5381590) Journal
    Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I take my purchases to a clerk who rings them up, and to whom I give payment.

    The store already knows what I've bought. Big deal.

    These sound like a much more effective shoplifting deterrent than the current tags that can be defeated with a tinfoil-lined purse (or fanny sack as geeks call them).

    It would be nice to see a system of these tags taking the current 'self check-out' aisles even further: the products in the cart announce themselves to a kiosk which automatically tallies up the bill. For practical purposes, that's much more anonymous than the cashier.

    I'm more worried about the cashier-whos-a-friend-of-a-cousin-of-a-dentist-of- someone spreading gossip than I am some pencil-pusher in a cubicle 1000 miles away.

    Anyways, more fluff.

  • EZ Pass and Door Locks (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Washizu ( 220337 ) <bengarvey@co m c a s t . net> on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:51PM (#5381591) Homepage
    "the same techniques that enable an electronic sensor to record data from an E-ZPass tag or an office door to open for people with chip-equipped cards in their pockets"

    I know many who have EZ-Pass (mine was ordered and never came) and it has so many false positives for non-payment it's insane. Along with your fine you get a nice little picture in the mail of your car going through the toll even though they have that car in their EZ-Pass database!

    My apartment building uses the electronic key lock with a motion sensor on the inside. I'd say it's broken about 5% of the time, which is a lot if that's where you are every day.

  • Can these be hacked? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by t0qer ( 230538 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:51PM (#5381594) Homepage Journal
    For any cool experiments? Is the transmitter range long enough to track my pet to within lets say 400 feet? Could they be hacked into some sort of packet network backbone or radio station?

    I'm going to brush paranoia aside for now because I wonder what sort of cool things I can do with these little wonders. Millions upon millions of them all availiable whenever I purchase a product.

    Could I read these RDIF tags myself? Could I drive past my neighbors and find out what brand lubricant they use by scanning their trashcans? Oh what fun! I can see it now, you heard it from me first, "War RDIF anarchy dildo driving!" As soon as these things are introduced, I'm going to drive around the bay area every garbage night and scan for people who have empty anarchy dildo packages in their trash, and mark it with some chalk (And on a map I will post on the net)

    Man, this takes shaming peoples insecurities to a whole new level.

  • What happens? (Score:5, Funny)

    by maxbang ( 598632 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:51PM (#5381596) Journal

    Winona Ryder goes to prison.

  • Well, (Score:3, Interesting)

    by SuiteSisterMary ( 123932 ) <slebrunNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:51PM (#5381597) Journal
    But what happens to privacy when everything you buy can be tracked from store floor to door?

    Probably about as much happens when your shopping cart contents are itemized at the cash register.

    Come on. I mean, come on. This is getting stupid. "Oh, no, my rights are being violated, because the store is TRACKING THEIR OWN MERCHANDISE until such time as I actually pay it. Oh, woe is me. Woe woe woe."

  • Protect your property (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kfg ( 145172 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:52PM (#5381600)
    Until the moment you buy it the things in a store belong to them. Period. They can do anything they want with it, including tracking.

    This is no different than putting a tracking device in your laptop or in your car. Or having a "Lost phone" beeper in your cordless.

    As a store owner though I certainly wouldn't want a supplier being able to track my inventory without my permission, or perhaps even knowing about it. It isn't any of *their* business, per se. I can see where the large chains would find this useful though.

    But in MY store, I put the tags on, if I bloody well feel like it.

    As a customer the tags had better come off as soon as I buy the merchandise. From that moment on it's mine, not theirs. Note that that would be *before* I get to the exit.

    KFG

    • Re:Protect your property (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Sabalon ( 1684 )
      I agree...the supplier shouldn't track you inventory. But if they sent you an item with a tag, wouldn't you need a) a reader to know what was passing out the store b) a connection of some sort to send that back to the supplier.

      In other words, the inventory isn't phoning home to the mothership - you'd have to work with the supplier to setup this sort of deal.

      Of course, they would know what has left their truck into your store, but as you said, up til you sign for it, it's theirs anyway.

      Personally, I'd like to start weaving the tags from items I bought into my clothes. Walk out the door in shorts and a tank top and the system thinks I am carrying a 25" tv, etc...
  • These things are great. Can I put them on my packages so I don't have to pay for delivery confirmation?

  • Privacy in a store? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ShinmaWa ( 449201 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:53PM (#5381611)
    This is stupid.

    Its not like Wal-Mart doesn't have security cameras every 10 feet that zoom in on you, the contents of your cart, what you are carrying, etc.

    Also, its not like Wal-Mart doesn't keep records of everything you buy and when you bought them, which can be linked up to the timestamps on aforementioned security cameras.

    Trust me, RFID tags on merchandise isn't going to harm your privacy in a store one tiny bit.

  • Privacy violation? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Junta ( 36770 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:54PM (#5381614)
    Unless you are stealing from the store, the clerk and the cash register know everything you buy anyway.

    If it ends up having *any* impact on privacy, it would be too *improve* privacy. No matter what, the cash register system has the *potential* to track your purchases that you pay for. Currently, when you buy stuff, every individual item must be handled by the cashier to be scanned, so the cashier is intimately familiar with your purchase. If used properly, this thing could scan an entire cart without digging through every item. Items you want to hide can be hidden. They still are paid for, but the cashier only sees the total sum, not each purchase. Combine this with anonymous currency (only paper money right now) and individuals are in no way associated with their purchases, neither by humans nor by computer.

    Afraid of those items being tracked after leaving the store? Rip out those tags when you are out of there.

  • A couple of shortcomings - (Score:3, Interesting)

    by borkus ( 179118 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @04:57PM (#5381640) Homepage
    Cordless phones, two-way radios, local wireless networks and other communications devices that are widely deployed in factories, warehouses and stores can interfere with the signals.

    I wonder if these would even work in an electronics retailer - say like Best Buy. You've got a wall of TV's, cell phones, radio, etc all over the store. Unless you had a large number of distributed receivers, how would you counteract the interference.
    And, although radio tag readers can, under ideal conditions, identify well over 100 tagged items every second from quite a distance, radio waves have a hard time penetrating metals and liquids

    Nearly all store shelving is metal. In particular, Wal-Marts have those big 8 foot high shelves in certain sections of the store. Grocery stores are completely filled with metal shelving and refrigeration units.
  • Scan the RFIDs of trash to see which consumers of which brands are more likely to litter.
  • For a home device that shoots just enough microwaves
    into commonly bought consumer good to fry the RFID
    tag.
  • Given the previous article talking about RFID tags in tires (which is much more insidious to me than having an RFID tag in the packaging of the underwear I buy), it brings up a question.

    Given how low-power these things are, and that they seem to be standardizing on the way they transmit, is there a way to create RFID countermeasures?

    The best would be a passive device like the RFID tags that can be powered by the same mechanism as the RFID tags themselves, since that would mean it would always activate when you were in range. However, I would assume an active countermeasure could be powered for a very long time from a small battery.

  • Ok, ok, I don't get it.

    I fail to see why Gilette wanting to track their razors, is taking away my rights.

    Or do the tags stay with the razor for the life of the product?

    Someone(from both angles) help me out, there seems to be confusion.

  • So people can track what I buy? Wow. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by TheRaven64 ( 641858 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @05:06PM (#5381712) Journal

    Oh wait, my local supermarket [tesco.com] does this already, and uses this info when I log into their online shopping section to populate my favourites list, so I don't have to bother searching for things I purchase regularly. So does Amazon [amazon.co.uk]. This is an infringement of my civil liberties because wasting my time is an inalienable human right... or something.

    Seriously, what can someone actually do with my purchase history? Maybe target me with adverts for things I might want to buy? (no, I am not a good person to try to sell feminine hygein products to. And no I don't want to consolidate my debt, thank you. HINT TO ADVERTISERS: The only banner ad I have ever clicked on deliberately was for food.) Maybe they could use this information for blackmail, after all I wouldn't want it getting around that I make my own pizzas, or the men from Domino's [dominos.co.uk] will be after me.

    Honestly, it's not like I buy things over the counter for spreading sedition. I use my other identity for that...

  • There, a "smart shelf" continuously queries tiny radio chips embedded in the packages it holds, and senses the silence when one is removed. The system may soon be programmed to alert security when several are taken at once, Greg Sage, a Tesco spokesman, said.

    So, if I decide to buy several packs of blades at once, so I stock up for the fall of society, I'll be stopped and treated like a terrorist?

  • RFID, meet EMP (Score:3, Insightful)

    by peacefinder ( 469349 ) <(moc.liamg) (ta) (ttiwed.nala)> on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @05:07PM (#5381720) Journal
    I'm not especially worried about RFID tags in stores. Yes, it could be a serious privacy problem if a store tracked everything you picked up looked at in horror and disbelief, and set back down again hastily. (Like the Teddy Grahams bedsheets I saw the other week in a surplus store... a kiddie marketing tie-in gone horribly too far.) They might conclude that people were actually interested in such things.

    But I digress.

    What would bother me is the tracking products by RFID once I was out of the store. If stores are going to use RFID tags, I want them to expire, permanently, the moment I walk out of the place of purchase. And somehow I'm doubting that I can really trust the stores, the government, or the RFID manufacturers to take care of this little detail for me.

    So if there's any EE's out there who can tell us, what does it take to reliably kill an RFID tag? (A microwave oven?) If there's no easy way, would it be feasable to make a device that would reliably burn them out?

  • Easier Checkout?? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Sergeant Beavis ( 558225 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @05:08PM (#5381730) Homepage

    I'm not very worried about potiential tracking since that is already done everytime I use a credit card. However, I would think this could bring about the easier checkouts that we have been hearing about for the last decade where we just take our items through an automated checkout lane and simply pay up without having to scan our items.

    Right now, at certain KMarts, you can check yourself out, but you have to scan each individual item. I tried this once but after waiting 10 minutes as the technically inept attempt to accomplish this otherwise simple feat, I realized that the process was flawed. Putting these tags on all items will make it as simple as walking through a lane, sliding your debit card through a reader (or even simplier if you have an account with the store itself) and walking out the door.

    Now if they can only figure out how to automatically bag everything.

  • John Anderton! You look like you could use a Guinness right now!
  • Well, in Washington State... I'm not so worried about RFID, etc., on those size 10 panties you're buying. I'm worried about them being able to video record/photograph [washington.edu] the panties you were already wearing when you came in.

  • RFID Concerns (Score:4, Interesting)

    by cornice ( 9801 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @05:13PM (#5381779)
    I work for a company that sells to one of the worlds largest retailers. This retailer recently held a meeting with all suppliers in the division and stated that RFIDs will be used on all pallets entering the DC this year and all products sold within a couple years. The benefits such as walking past the checkout and knowing exactly what's in your cart was discussed. Inventory management is the really big benefit though. Concerns such as thieves potentially knowing what's in your cart as you walk to your car were also discussed. Someone also voiced the concern that thieves with proper equipment could know exactly what's sitting in your car. It seems like the retailers know what the risks are. They are seriously trying to reduce those risks but the benefits are far too great for them to ignore. We're just hoping that the price comes down. The tags cost half as much as our product.

  • Destroying RFIDs (Score:3, Funny)

    by Elusis ( 598011 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @05:15PM (#5381800)
    has anyone else had the thought that maybe by putting your new shirt, panties, ect in a microwave for a few seconds you would effectively destroy the RFID when you got it home if you were so inclined? I can definitely see a problem with anything metal but since i'm not into BDSM i don't wear metal panties....

  • You have no idea... (Score:5, Informative)

    by NetRanger ( 5584 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @05:15PM (#5381808) Homepage
    Wal-Mart, for example, has a database TWICE the size of all the U.S. Government, combined.

    EVERY purchase you have ever made with a credit card is tracked right down to you. All your preferences are known, right down to your favorite deodorant.

    Wal-Mart, however you might think of it, is a brilliant company. Did you know that most of the products on the Wal-Mart shelf have NOT been bought by Wal-Mart? No, the manufacturer sends the products to Wal-Mart and waits until the item is actually run through the checkout scanner before it receives a check. The manufacturer is responsible for sending more products for Wal-Mart to stock. In return, they get access to that titanic-sized wealth of marketing data.

    This is where the radio tags come in. If you know exactly where any product is in your store, you can see what products sell better in what location -- in real time, across the country. And yes, shoplifting will become far more difficult for the petty theives -- I doubt the pros will be stopped by this technology.

    RFID tags aren't about big brother -- they're about big bucks.

  • Privacy issue explained (Score:4, Insightful)

    by tchdab1 ( 164848 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @05:28PM (#5381911) Homepage
    Geez, I can't believe how many posts don't understand the privacy issue. Let me summarize:

    1). the tags cannot be deactivated, are not deactivated when you purchase the item.

    2.) each tag has a unique ID - buy 3 identical pants, 3 tags have 3 different ID numbers.

    3.) pay with a traceable currency, like a credit card, and into the database goes your credit card info AND the IDs of the things you bought.

    4.) From now on, anyone with a scanner and access to the database where you bought stuff can know who you are, where you are. Walk into a Walmart on the other side of the world, and your RFID tag can identify you (or at least the purchaser of the goods). Have not only your buying habits, but your shopping habits tracked, stored, and datamined. Buy a shirt at a garage sale and get arrested for being someone else! Have more of your info make it into the Total Information Awareeness uberdatabase.

    It's a wonderful world.

    • Re:Privacy issue explained (Score:5, Insightful)

      by AlphaOne ( 209575 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @05:47PM (#5382086)
      Although your points are valid, I really don't think this is a hot an issue as people make it out to be.

      Your every action can be, or nearly can be, tracked by other means, so what difference does it make if they put an RF inventory tag on your pants? Does some law mandate you can't remove these tags? Granted, it's highly inconvenient to remove them, but possible none-the-less.

      These tags are incredibly low power and can only be usefully read at distances typical to inventory: a couple of clear football fields at best. With all of your clothes in your closet, someone would have to be within a city block to even trigger the things and reading them would be even harder.

      As for an uber-database... remembering each RFID tag and what it was associated with is trivial, as is associating it with you when you purchase it. But then what? They already gather that information anyway. Even if you pay with cash, there's always a camera and don't think for one second they can't reassociate that register's receipts with the images on tape.

      I just don't see the privacy threat here... what's K-Mart going to do, drive around the neighborhood pinging houses to see if you've got some of their pants?

      The government could conceivably slap some database together for all this stuff, but the amount of storage required would be massive for a minimal amount of gain. They can already figure out what you bought and where now anyway.

  • this is good. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by geekoid ( 135745 ) <dadinportland&yahoo,com> on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @05:48PM (#5382114) Homepage Journal
    it will save you money, and reduce theft. As long as it stops as I leave there door.

  • Walmart already tracks everything.... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jsimon12 ( 207119 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @06:16PM (#5382460) Homepage
    "But what happens to privacy when everything you buy can be tracked from store floor to door?"

    I hate to be the one to break this too you, but Walmart already tracks EVERYTHING they sell. Every purchase goes into these giant NCR Terradata setups back at their home office. They mine it for trends and such already and have been doing so for years. So this really don't change that. The real question is how to you make sure the RFID tag is really deactivated?

  • I don't remember seeing this argument posted... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @06:34PM (#5382652)
    Imagine someone with a portable scanner walking through the mall parking lot knowing exactly which recently purchased items are in each vehicle...

    youch!

  • If you want privacy... (Score:4, Funny)

    by halepark ( 578694 ) on Tuesday February 25, 2003 @06:57PM (#5382871)
    just microwave your panties before you wear them. Not only will they be nice and toasty but the RFID will be fried.

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