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Many Tools of Big Brother Are Up and Running 367

Posted by michael from the born-free-and-everywhere-in-chains dept.
wildfrontiersman writes "NY Times article, Many Tools of Big Brother Are Up and Running, quote: 'Because of the inroads the Internet and other digital network technologies have made into everyday life over the last decade, it is increasingly possible to amass Big Brother-like surveillance powers through Little Brother means. The basic components include everyday digital technologies like e-mail, online shopping and travel booking, A.T.M. systems, cellphone networks, electronic toll-collection systems and credit-card payment terminals.' This is too scary. I am now ready for a little less convenience and a little more privacy. How about you?"
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Many Tools of Big Brother Are Up and Running More

Many Tools of Big Brother Are Up and Running

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  • uh oh (Score:5, Funny)

    by JeanBaptiste ( 537955 ) on Tuesday December 24, 2002 @04:15PM (#4953964)
    if they can link my AC postings to my ID then I am screwed

  • Attitude Adjustment? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Mu*puppy ( 464254 ) on Tuesday December 24, 2002 @04:16PM (#4953968)
    This is too scary. I am now ready for a little less convenience and a little more privacy. How about you?

    What a dim outlook on life you have. Perhaps you need to spend some time in the Ministry of Love...

  • Many are concerned about the government because of their new spyware, the Big Brother affect. Oddly enough, I'm not concerned because I think the government might be "reading my mail".

    There's an old saying that goes something like the master swordsman doesn't fear another master, he fears the amateur.

    I feel the same way about Big Brother. I don't consider them to be a threat about what they might intentionally find out about me or my friends/family. I fear what they might "think" they found in a fit of total incompetence.

    • Re:It's Ironic... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Tackhead ( 54550 ) on Tuesday December 24, 2002 @05:05PM (#4954239)
      > There's an old saying that goes something like the master swordsman doesn't fear another master, he fears the amateur.
      >
      > I feel the same way about Big Brother. I don't consider them to be a threat about what they might intentionally find out about me or my friends/family. I fear what they might "think" they found in a fit of total incompetence.

      Amen to that. I heard the swordsman comment phrased a little less elegantly:

      "Evil has to sleep at night. Stupidity is 24/7."

      At least Big Brother as depicted in Orwell's 1984 was competent - it was staffed by dedicated bellyfeeling Party members who were capable of doing a pretty good job of hunting down and exterminating those who presented a threat to the Party, while leaving the proles alone.

      A Big Brother staffed by the cluel^H^H^H^H^H fucknoz^H^H^H^H^H^H^H twit^H^H^H^H individuals presently working at INS, or even your local DMV, scares me far more than the one in 1984.

      But compared to either of those alternatives, I'll take a Big Brother staffed by NSA and CIA any day. Heck, I'll even give the FBI a shot at joining in and redeem itself.

      Short of spending trillions to achieve the 1984 total security state, the way you achieve the optimum balance between freedom and security is that you have your police force be just a little bit stupid, and just a little bit slow.

      We got hit on 9/11 because we went for very slow and very stupid. Bureaucratic stonewalling (no information sharing between FBI, CIA, and NSA) was part of it, as were politically-motivated fuckups like diverting FBI resources away from the Islamokazi whackjob terrorist threat to investigate the domestic militia whackjob terrorist threat. As for stupidity, it doesn't get much dumber than giving visa confirmations to the 9/11 hijackers six months after all hell broke loose - only the INS could pull something like that. And only in the INS could Ashcroft himself not fire those responsible.

      IMNSHO, the proposed Big Brother composed of our intelligence agencies (NSA, CIA, post-9/11 FBI design goal) has the potential to achieve the right degree of stupidity and slowness for the job -- and I don't mean that as an insult. Any stupider and slower (pre-9/11 FBI, current INS), and we'd have another 9/11. Any smarter and faster (Stasi, KGB, Gestapo), and it'd be 1984.

      • We got hit on 9/11 because we went for very slow and very stupid. Bureaucratic stonewalling (no information sharing between FBI, CIA, and NSA) was part of it, as were politically-motivated fuckups like diverting FBI resources away from the Islamokazi whackjob terrorist threat to investigate the domestic militia whackjob terrorist threat. As for stupidity, it doesn't get much dumber than giving visa confirmations to the 9/11 hijackers six months after all hell broke loose - only the INS could pull something like that. And only in the INS could Ashcroft himself not fire those responsible.


        Um... the origins for the NSA, CIA, and FBI were explicitly placed there to prevent the type of "Sharing" that directly infrings on protected rights of the american public. To have one agency that is allowed to share without limits is more scary than what we have now. They can assasinate americal citizens, spy on americal citizens, use non-approved interrogation methods to extract evidence for criminal proceedings in the US, they can lie and make up secret evidence to be used at US trials, and I can go on.

        The need for data sharing was an important factor in the 9/11 disaster, but a saner way to fix the problem is place federal judges within arm reach of the departments to approve specific data sharing needs.

  • Too Late (Score:4, Funny)

    by John Hasler ( 414242 ) on Tuesday December 24, 2002 @04:16PM (#4953973) Homepage
    > This is too scary. I am now ready for a little
    > less convenience and a little more privacy. How
    > about you?"

    Anomolous behavior will flag you as a "person of interest". Find out what the typical consumer of your age, income and education does and do it.
    • Find out what the typical consumer of your age, income and education does and do it.

      Isn't that also called hiding, or giving in?
    • "Anomolous"?

      If there was another 'n' in there I'd think you were talking about "The Year of 6.023 x 10^23"

  • Personally, (Score:2, Informative)

    by bplipschitz ( 265300 )
    I have always been for less convenience and more privacy. However, I think it should be a matter of choice. The choices *should* be available, and many times they are not, and that really fries my goat.

    For example, Social Security numbers were never meant to be a general ID number. Every chance I get, I opt for a different number [e.g., driver's licenses usually us SS #'s for the DL #. Here in Missouri, you can have that changed so that your DL# is not equal to your SS#, which is nice.]

    I encourage everyone to limit any personal information you give out, and check your credit reports often. Ultimately, the choice is yours: restrict the broadcast of your personal information [at the expense of some convenience], or face identity fraud of one kind or another.
    • Your driver's license number is generated from algorithm that uses your social security number, so even though you think your safe, you can just run that number in reverse through the algorithm to find your social. It's not even that trick, either, it can be done on some scratch paper in 30 seconds.

      • Re:Personally, (Score:3, Flamebait)

        by benploni ( 125649 )
        Prove it. Show me *any* evidence that either:
        a) The Driver ID# is based on SS#
        b) This transform is reversible.

        Quite frankly, I don't believe you.

      • Re:Personally, (Score:2, Informative)

        by bplipschitz ( 265300 )
        --
        Your driver's license number is generated from algorithm that uses your social security number, so even though you think your safe, you can just run that number in reverse through the algorithm to find your social. It's not even that trick, either, it can be done on some scratch paper in 30 seconds.
        --

        I doubt it--my driver's license number is two fewer digits than a SS, and starts with the letter W.

        Not likely.
  • All we have to do is hope that all the government departments carry on like they currently do, not talking to each other or sharing information :)

  • why try now? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by istar ( 635821 )
    the government began the funding the the net back when it was just 4 computers total, but then after saying it would never amout to anything they handed it to the colleges.

    Now in the present because it is so large and vast, they have no control over it. Is it everything in our life that, once the government learns is out of their control, they instantly place laws and privacy breaking attempts into the system of it?

    Is there anything we can to so the government stops touching the 'net? Seems to me last time I checked the internet was worldwide, not just in the US, meaning their means of piracy invasion could viloate the seucirty of another nation.

    Is anyone else thinking of how wrong this is??

  • Am I the only one? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by pVoid ( 607584 ) on Tuesday December 24, 2002 @04:19PM (#4953994)
    Who doesn't get spam because I've never used my real email address on a site?

    Who doesn't have any subscriptions to anywhere except for my driver's license, bank cards (one credit, one debit) and Social insurance number?

    People who become peons of Big Brother do so because they want big brother to nurture their lazieness... It's almost like selling your soul to the devil in exchange of comfort.

    I could travel to an arab country and back (from Canada - with a canadian passport), and nobody would know.

    Wake up people - it's not that hard.

    • "I could travel to an arab country and back (from Canada - with a canadian passport), and nobody would know."

      Really? I'd love to see this put to the test. I'm not doubting your ability to do so, but I have a sinking feeling the gubermint would find out. If not yours, then a "friend" of your governments.
      • Of coure they'd know. First, you need a passport. To get that, you need to present a birth certificate or other legal proof of identity. Then, you plaster a nice mug shot of yourself on the passport.

        If you fly, you'll need to present your passport multiple times before you board the aircraft. And, the airliner will feed all that lovely personal info into databases shared with scads of agencies.

        Don't forget passport control at your place of departure and at your destination. Oh, odds are you'll need a visa to get into that Arab country. A passport alone won't cut it. More database entries.

        Now, once you beyond passport control and out of the airport at your destination, smile at the local police officers, 'cause you are almost certainly already in there records. And, if you appear sufficently interesting, the local intelligence service knows you're there, too.

      • Hey dude, I regularly travel to Turkey and back. And many times, they don't stamp passports. Flying to Europe, and then passing borders by foot or car will get you almost anywhere without being tracked.
    • You name and information about you is linked to more things than you think. I do agree with you about your lack of spam. I keep another mailbox (like most) to subscribe to web sites. But you can't "travel to an arab country and back (from Canada - with a canadian passport), and nobody would know.". No one maybe intrested in your travel plans at the moment, but if the need arose to find out when and where you went. That information CAN and would be available.
      • We have some level of security due to the fact that the people watching us have large but finite resources to mine the data that they have. ITs just not worth it for them to look at every call every person places. I'm sure they could get the data but to then make some sort of sense out of it? Now if there is some reason why they are watching you that is different. I do most of my calling on a cell phone and sure some one could listen in if they really wanted to, but why would they. I don't think I'm really that interesting to the cops/FBI/NSA who ever to make them spend the time.

        On the other hand I't kind of does make me glad that I drop of the radar for the Jewish Sabbeth every week. No Money, no electronics, no car etc. And if they want to know what I am reading they can drop by the Beit Midrash and ask.

    • Re:Am I the only one? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by pVoid ( 607584 ) on Tuesday December 24, 2002 @07:50PM (#4954987)
      To all of these posts, I have this to say:

      Have you watched the movie 'Traffic'... it's all about numbers and odds. If you travel through places that carry lots of people flow, you are rather safe (you won't arrouse suspicion). For places that aren't crowded like this, you get less footprint...

      Example: cross from Toronto to Detroit, you have a pretty good chance of being asked your nationality, and that's it.

      Same in most european countries. Fly to Paris, and then find a car (don't make me explain how to do that)... and ride on off... Cross into slavic countries as fast as you can, and then roll on down to turkey.

      Be a 'new age' tourist. Pass from a non tourist heavy location where they *don't* have computer terminals (borders are wide lines, and not many are always computerized). And ride on down to Iran.

      It's not complicated. It's illusion to think that governments are all over the place... frick, the CIA hasn't been able to kill Saddam for years now because they just can't find out where he is...

      It's just as easy to live in your own little country and not leave a wide footprint. It's all about being aware of different data you leave around the place, and being careful not to leave hints on how to correlate it: like your email, and your actual location, your phone # and your IP, your name and your CC#. Even your passwords are hints as to who you are...

      In fact, there was an interesting concept in a book called "Writing Secure Code" (Moft PRess), on how the majority of the current passwords could be sniffed out: create a porn site... clean, free of popups. Get people to register for free (don't even ask for email), and you have a very good chance that people will choose the same password they use on most of their other accounts when they create an account for you...

  • you haven't been paying attention.

    If you don't realize that your electronic footprint can be tracked everywhere, you haven't been keeping your eyes open.

    Your posts to slashdot can be subpeoned (sp?) for dates/times and content. "I was in my office at 4:00 on tuesday" "Oh, well why were you posting to slashdot from your mother's computer?"

    Your ATM transactions, pictures and times and dates. Your logging into NYtimes to read an article - your IP and browser and all that were logged. ad infinitum, as noted in the article and elsewhere on what were once called "conpiracy theory" and "right/left wing wacko" sites that have been talking about this for some time.

    If you're only scared after reading an article in the New York Times, you're blind as a bat and half as smart.

    Now, if the other 17 people who are still at work after 3 pm on Christmas eve will post replies to the thread, we can all go home now ;)

    • Well, there are steps to avoid stuff like this...

      That's what really annoys me actually: a person with the intention to avoid detection can do it with a bit of effort. Normal joe bloe's who don't care, can't.

      The 'avoidance' I talk about is partly the number of people surfing. It's just gigs and gigs of log files that most ISP just delete after a while.

  • ... for email. They blithely put whatever comes to mind in their email as though it's private.

    I like to ask them how they'll enjoy explaining such emails after their company's email is subpoenaed in a lawsuit. It's usually just an "it'll never happen" shrug.

    So the threat of being spied upon doesn't seem to make a difference to most non-geek people I know, even if they do things that would be embarassing to them if they were publicized. Odd.

  • 1984 (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Deathlizard ( 115856 ) on Tuesday December 24, 2002 @04:21PM (#4954003) Homepage Journal
    So George Orwell was off by 20 years.

    Hey Democrats. Looking for an issue? How about dropping the "Tax cuts for the Rich" and the "It's the Economy Stupid" Garbage and adopt a platform based on the Protection of civil liberities? With all of this "Homeland Security" running out the wazoo and back, and our freedoms going out the door one by one, maybe you would get people listening to what you have to say if you start informing people that their freedom is at risk.

    • Re:1984 (Score:2, Insightful)

      by charon_on_acheron ( 519983 )
      Unfortunately, neither of the two dominant parties want "Protection of civil liberties" anymore. The Republicans only want protection for right-wing Christian values, and the Democrats only want protection for left-wing or homosexual values. Only the Libertarian Party wants to protect _everyone's_ personal liberties, and of course, they're basically a group of reactionary throw-back kooks that can't even get a real candidate in a real elected office. 'County Deputy Dogcatcher' doesn't count.

      So until we have a little revolutionary activity, we are totally screwed.
  • I am now ready for a little less convenience and a little more privacy.

    that's the kernel of truth here in a nutshell. some would have lots of convenience, and care less about the privacy. others would rather have nothing made public, and will go to great lengths, ie, less convenient means, to ensure that.

    where there is a will, there is a way. effortless privacy has always been, is, and always will be impossible. privacy will always be more expensive in time and resources for those who want it than convenient straightforward daily life. so let people vote with their level of paranoia. if you believe the government will never hurt you, let it all hang out. if you believe mccarthyism is right around the corner, cover your tracks.

    the problem is believing you can have your privacy without any effort on your part. never will happen. or have your convenience with privacy inherent in the deal. nope.

    also, if somebody somewhere in power says you HAVE to do things one way or the other, either some will scream foul at the inconvenience, or some will scream foul at the lack of privacy.

    and, btw, medical data: be careful when you fill out your prescriptions. doctor confidentiality is iron solid, but there all sorts of breaks in the system of privacy when it comes to different parts of the healtchare industry. however you feel about privacy/ convenience, drug companies and maybe even potential employers knowing about your diabetes/ high blood pressure/ AIDS is just plain orwellian.
  • I am now ready for a little less convenience and a little more privacy. How about you?
    um, nope. thanks for asking.

    i have EZ-pass. i like the fact that it speeds things up for me, but more than that, i like the fact that i no longer have to worry about keeping a ash tray full of change sitting around. i'm not really concerned with people knowing where i went when. sure, i'd rather people didn't keep that sort of tabs on me, but y'know what? i really don't care so much. wanna know where i drive? fine, whatever.
    similarly with credit cards. if my credit card company want to keep tabs on what i buy, fine. as long as they don't spam me with "promotional offers" (nicely worded spam), i don't care.
    as long as the person on the other end doesn't care, i'm happy to tell anyone who wants to know who i call on the phone, who i give money too, who i send email to.

    i agree it'd be a problem if this sort of stuff was unavoidable. but you don't like EZpass tracking where you drive? don't use it. pay cash for things.
    the obvious counter-argument is that, in things like credit cards, you often don't have a choice. but if enough people "defect", somebody'll come along to fill that market demand. it's just that most people don't think about it. and many who do (like me) simply don't care that much about keeping their lives a secret.
  • Seriously.

    http://freenetproject.org/

    If a good number of the slashdotters here donated that old box in the closet as a dedicated nodes this could easily be the next step in secure, anonymous communications for everyone.
    It's stable, runs on several different platforms and just may be an answer.

    Oh, and get out and vote sometime as well. That always helps.
  • Spart people, and that includes criminals and "terrorists" (which nomenclature, like history, is determined by the most powerful publishers and may not be based on truth), will use PGP, steagano, distraction, and other means, as they always have to bypass governments. Like laws enacted to stop, oh lets say drugs, or alcohol, all that these laws do is punish the weak and provide opportunities for the smart and strong.
  • because when I go to the shops I want them to have the things I want to buy.

    I want to be stereotyped, I want to be classified.

    card for ya [proweb.co.uk]

    If only they would listen to my preferences the world would be a better place 8)

    • of the bad things. You've been a good neighbour for 35 years, a husband for 40, etc etc. Very few care when it ends you up in court or something similar. Think about it in terms of light paints. White paint is nice, but it's easily covered over or marred with the slighest smear of dark. Black paint, on the other hand, may be covered with a lighter colour... but usually tends to show through.

      And pleaaaaase, don't use my white/black colour comparison for racial meanings... I skew what I say enough myself without having help.
  • This is too scary. I am now ready for a little less convenience and a little more privacy. How about you?

    As much as I would like to, I don't think there's anything really new to say here. We have the way out -- it's called donating to and becoming a member of the EFF. Writing lengthy and important-sounding posts is just preaching to the choir at this point.
  • Public Web sites that require registration to gain access to the the articles.

  • Boring people (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Only boring people don't need the right to privacy.

  • So, to make a point (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Gnaythan1 ( 214245 ) on Tuesday December 24, 2002 @04:37PM (#4954096)
    If the technology is already out there, and it doesn't take Big Brother to do it... let's start posting the available information about senators, key lobbyists, and other people supporting this. If a million eyes are watching their every move, maybe it won't end up happening... At the very least, we'll have a heads up on what's going on, and bring more attention to the problem.


    A few hundred web sites devoted to tracking the mundane habits of the guy who wants to do the same to you seems rather appropriate.

    • That's just it. Politicians are scrutinized by the media with all of their investigative tools and techniques availible and a lot of dirt is printed about them. The problem is that no one cares if your congressman's behavior is questionable. It's expected !

  • The co-author of the story is John Markoff [takedown.com]... author of "Cyberpunk" and the very same guy that helped capture Kevin Mitnick with Tsutomu Shimomura [takedown.com] using mobile phone taps and server logs [takedown.com]? I don't know, maybe this article seems a tad hypocritical coming from an guy who got a lot of success for himself and his books by infringements of the privacy of another individual.
  • Cos Big Brother wants to keep a protective eye on you!

    The movie (1984) has a very cool scene where the protagonist (Winston, played by Joh Hurt) is doing his morning 'aerobics' at home, in front of his viewscreen, following the instructions of the rather stern lady on the screen... she stops and says something like "Number 1048, you arn't doing it right! Like *this*... Thats better."

    Anyone who thinks that the whole 1984 thing is overrated and the Big Brother surveillance society can't be *that* bad should grab a P2P file sharing app and download this movie...
  • "This is too scary. I am now ready for a little less convenience and a little more privacy. How about you?"

    Hey... the genie is already out of the bottle, the only question left is who will he serve? The rich, powerful, well-connected or crooked could always find out whatever they wanted to about you. The only difference now is they can do it a lot faster. Privacy laws only prevent us from spying on them.

    What we need are sunshine laws that allow everybody to spy on everyone. I don't care if I live in a fishbowl as long as everybody else does too. Big deal if they put cameras on every street corner, in the police departments, at my work. If you want to se how much I earn or what I bought last week fine. Just set up the system so everybody can see all of the info, not just the rich and powerful. That will give us true freedom. Who will watch the watchmen, the watched.
    • (I work for a Telco, my statement is mine, not my employer)

      Truth to that. Our security department has to watch peoples activities. People in support roles can pull up your records, or activate a new pre-paid phone.

      The good thing about our big brother software for the courts, it needs a court order before we turn on the trace of your phone. So your basically safe from prying eyes, we don't log your email, we don't catalog your SMS messages, its normal Solaris unix boxes that deletes your emails when sent.

      All these boxes have sys-admins, and many read Slashdot (like me) and if we saw big brother flexing his muscles on the little guy, someone would talk. But I'm glad to see responsibility with companies, after Eron and Worldcom fuck ups.

  • Is life so dear? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by zenyu ( 248067 ) on Tuesday December 24, 2002 @04:55PM (#4954186)

    Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death! -- Patrick Henry


    I wonder how many remember Poindexter and Iran/Contra? Iran/Contra was the last time the government broke the law in a "the ends justify the means" sense where they not only sold arms to Iran, which supported terrorism at the time, but used the money to support the Contras, a South American terrorist group, which they also helped sell cocaine in the US for even more terrorist money. All parts of the deal were illegal, the congress had told Reagan not to sell weapons to Iran, and not to give weapons or money to the terrorists; importing cocaine was illegal, though I think that took everyone by surprise.

    I think there are few that would justify Poindexter's pro-terrorist ends in this day when we are at the unfortunate end of the terrorist gun. But, knowing that he was part of such a conspiracy tells you that he has a contempt for the law and so can expected not to follow any meagre protections that may remain in it.
    • The Conspirators: Secrets of an Iran-Contra Insider [amazon.com]
      by Al Martin

      This is an excellent book for anyone who wants to know what Iran-Contra was all about. The meat is not in narcotics and guns, that's just the sizzle. The reall meat is the HUGE FRAUD that was perpetrated and the billions of dollars that were looted from corporations and taxpayers around the world. Truly a must-read for anyone who wants to know why the Bush Cabal is so eager to wage WWIII.
  • The data would be filtered through software that would constantly look for suspicious patterns of behavior.

    What about obvious "suspicious pattern of behavior" such as: Dr. Poindexter was convicted in 1990 of a felony for his role in the Iran-contra affair...

    For more info about the Iran-Contra ordeal look here: here [ezboard.com].
  • Computers and the Internet didn't invent all this, they just make it easier to find and distribute.

    You don't need a computer to store personal info about someone. A typewriter and a filing cabinet will do quie nicely. Birth records, school records, employment records, health info, military records, police records, foreign travel records, telephone use records, credit history, etc., etc. All these predate the Internet, and can be subpoenaed.

  • Hoover files (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Kefaa ( 76147 ) on Tuesday December 24, 2002 @05:07PM (#4954250)
    The issue is not whether we should be afraid they may find something, it is that they will.

    For years, the NRA has been fighting gun registration. Guess what, they just lost and it did not even require a vote. If I can record every electronic transaction, then the legal purchase you just made at Walmart was recorded and we know who bought the gun, where you live, etc... Now before you hit reply with "maybe we should know.." maybe we should. But, it should be explained to people that way, no usurped.

    Working in the travel business, specifically hotel systems, we try to have a "no spook" policy. We do not tie anything about your stay together. We don't send a "thank you for staying" note to you and your spouse just because two stayed in the room. We also don't comment on things you did there. (Porn channel, liter of scotch, etc.). This makes people uncomfortable, because they learn they are being tracked to an incredible detail. (when you entered and left your room, what you ate, drank and purchased in the hotel shop)

    The Information Awareness Office(IAO) is going the opposite route. They will be tying all this type of information together with your financial, banking, medical and police records. Consider what Bill Clinton or Newt Gingrich would have been willing to do, to avoid having their "indescretions" revealed? Simply tying Newt's calendar to the hotel registrations in the area to the credit card paying for it...

    The problem with this information is we cannot trust people not to abuse it. The IAO is currently being run by John Poindexter a person convicted of five felony counts of lying to Congress, destroying official documents and obstructing the congressional inquiry. He thought he knew the best course of action for the country. Now given the information that would influence where we might go, that beats dollars any day.

    So if you don't do anything wrong why do you care? Because people in power will do something wrong and this makes Hoover's files first grade stuff.
  • The article says "In the Pentagon research effort to detect terrorism by electronically monitoring the civilian population.."

    Since when monitoring the civilian population has protected anyone from terrorism? Every hacker knows that you can become untraceable and undecryptable if you want to. Terrorists are not stupid, they are able and have the will to use every trick in the book. Real terrorists aren't sending uncrypted emails, or chatting about their next strike on public forums.

    Big brother's monitoring system is targeted to civil liberties, not outside threat. The same thing has happened many times in the history. You think that you're saving your country by giving up your civil liberties, but you're not! And by the way, gaining back those liberties is ten times as hard as losing them. You might want to check from your history books how east germans, russians, finns, etc. won back their liberties.
  • It's utterly pointless to whine about "I want more privacy!" or "I'm ready for a little less convenience!". If that's true, then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

    NOT write your local MP/congressman.

    NOT publish incensed diatribes on web sites of already like-minded people.

    NOT bitch on blogs about the sordid state of affairs.

    GET OFF THE GRID.

    Don't wanna? Too bad for you then. It's easy, if you really want to:

    (1) Stop using checks, credit cards and debit cards. Use cash and money orders.

    (2) Only use the internet from libraries and public places.

    (3) Switch ID's very often when you do use the Net.

    (4) Only use pay phones and disposable cell phones (the prepay kind). Change your number often.

    (5) If you have a PC (and I mean PC, not a Mac or Sparc) in the house, do everything from inside a VMWare session, which you restore clean each use. This means creating a virtual machine, copying the machine to a new location, and every PC use, copy the VM over and start fresh. Store all docs on external media.

    (6) Get off the public utility grid. In the US, form corporations to buy property, and do not have utilities (i.e., use candles).

    If you're serious about wanting privacy, then take matters into your own hands. Complaining that we SHOULDN'T track everyone's activity is a waste of time. If it's possible, and marginally legal, someone will do it.

    I am a marketer. I make a living building profiles of consumers and tailoring messages for them. I can buy, for most Amercians, and some Australians, lists with your address, income, # children, ages and genders of children, value of your house, income of your neighbors, your age, interests, hobbies, education, assets, your past addresses spanning roughly 10-20 years, how long you've lived at your address, how often you improve your property, what catalogs you buy from and how often, a decent guess at your ethnicity, and nearly anything else. The only thing that amazes me is that we're not further than we are in knowing everything about you.

    Because there's an important fact that college students et. al. need to be aware of - big brother is not the government building spy lists of data on you to further their nefarious control over you. Big brother is marketers for whom it is financially critical to know everything about you. Politics may change, but economics rarely do.

    Tread lightly. I'm watching.
  • This makes me think that a nice idea would be a 'lost identity road trip'. Other than the registration of your car, from your license plate, do you think you could make a trip halfway across the country and back without being identified?

    Cash for tolls...
    Cash for all food and gasoline purchases...

    How about hotels? Can you get into a hotel without a credit card anymore? How about without ID?
    You can get a campground site without id, at least a tent site.

    And all those cameras - at all the gas stations, etc.... I'm think a 'filthy dirty car' with filthy dirty license plate would be in order.

    If I had time to make such a trip (and cash!) I might try it.

    Would be a great subject for a stupid 'I sold my life on ebay dot com' kind of web site. 'I disappeared for two weeks without getting identified by anyone and you can too dot com.'

    Hrm.


  • For the longest time we could alway count on the greed of other corperations to keep personal information private for two reasons. One they might get sued and the other is money, corperations are by nature greedy and information is money. This was a natural and for the most part balancing nature of true capatalism.

    Now we have TIA which forces these small pockets of data into the governments hands with ot without our explicit knowledge or concent. Statics will do the rest. It won't catch terrorists ( http://www.bgladd.com/Total_Information_Awareness/ ) because their are not enough true positive. On the other hand this system will be great for catching political dissidents, lazy criminals, affairs, and toher things that the majority of society will see no reason to protect THOSE people.

    Before we know it we are srtipped of all civil rights since for the most part people are more conforatable no longer thinking for themselves.
  • When all of these laws are being passed: DMCA, that evil "Hate Crime" thing in the EU, etc. And yet you liberals still give up guns thinking they are evil. Don't you realize that when the shit hits the fan they are meant for the citizens to violently overthrow said government? We need more Timothy McVeighs.
  • Whoo ees thees beeg borotha you speak ov? I no see eeny beeg barotha. You must meestaken [thememoryhole.com].
  • I am now ready for a little less convenience and a little more privacy. How about you?

    We are sold the fact that in order to get more convience we must give up our rights to privacy. This isn't true, most systems that grant convience and save time can be implemented in a way that will grant the user MORE privacy than they would have had otherwise. The problem is that most people are willing to give up anything for convience, being lazy asses, and the companies that implement the solutions to grant more convience, implement them in a way that the user trades off private information that the corporation can use for profit, or the government can use to fight dead beat dads, terrorists, drug dealers and those people who rip mattress tags off.

    For those of you who always bring up 1984 and Brave New World, read Brave New World Revisited, it is a collection of excellent essays by Huxley written towards the end of his life describing nearly exactly the society we are living in today and where we are going. Read about the roots of propaganda and marketing and it's rise in the 20th century. Noam Chomsky has a great book on that called Manufacturing Consent.

    Time to lower the antenna and crawl back down into my lead shielded underground vault at an undisclosed location (Cheney and I had the same realtor).

  • YOUR COMPUTER IS BROADCASTING AN IP ADDRESS! The government can spy on you with it... ;)

    Or, as one of my not-so-computer literate teachers explained it, "Your computer broadcast an IP address to every computer on the Internet. That's why you get so much spam."

  • Everytime someone posts about a new technological device/method/way/means of doing something, people scrutinize it for how it can be misused or controlled.

    In all honesty, big-brother is nothing more than someone else poking their nose into your business for their own means. In other words, I could go out my door and follow one of my neighbors around for a week, observing and noting what they do. Perhaps I cannot observe all of the things they do/say, but I'm quite certain I could observe enough to gain insight into their daily life and use it for whatever purpose I want.

    With that in mind, any time you use a public infrastructure - be it the internet or a public switched telephone network, you are giving up some privacy (That's why they call it PUBLIC) and the ability to be observed.

    Each must judge for themselves what they deem intrusive and if you don't like a device/method - don't use it. Leave it for the rest of us who deem it an asset to our lives.
  • First - how else could they make the movies? Eh? Eh? ;-)

    Really though, if you go back to the original StarTrek there is a trial where they actually show what everyone did. Obviously they have some kind of way to observe what everyone does (with nice camera angles and the ability to wipe out morning face!). Actually, to expand upon this a bit - StarTrek is the total abdication of your right to privacy if you are a part of the federation. The computers keep total watch over what you do, when you do it, and how many times you do it. No wonder no one brags about what they do on the ship or where. Makes you wonder where Captain Kirk got his reputation from. Of course, he did rig the Kobayashi test so he could win it so he could also have rigged the computer to lie about how many times, where, and with whom he did it too! :-P

  • oh no! (Score:2, Funny)

    by vena ( 318873 )
    you mean the internet isn't secure???

  • Here's the Problem (Score:5, Insightful)

    by snarfer ( 168723 ) on Tuesday December 24, 2002 @06:28PM (#4954623) Homepage
    When Nixon was President the FBI and CIA were actively engaged in suppressing expressions of political ideas that didn't conform to the Republican party line. Their activities included character assasination, IRS audits, getting people fired and ruining their careers, even blackmail and extortion.

    Later, under Reagan, you could be investigated if you participated in organizations (don't try to be smart here - this included Catholic Church activities) trying to stop the wars in Nicaragua or El Salvadore, and these investigations involved agents coming to your workplace and making you look like a criminal in front of your employer.

    Now the current administration is hiring people convicted of previous political crimes to run various agencies, including the Total Information Awareness initiative, which involves collecting ALL data about you, including now intercepting e-mail and phone conversations! This agency is run by a man convicted of using his job to engage in political activities any engaging in a cover-up so that Congress wouldn't find out. THIS is who is running this operation, and this should tell you all you need to know about the Administration's intentions!

    This will be a political spying operation.

  • A difference between Geekdom and "Normalcy"? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Fesh ( 112953 ) on Tuesday December 24, 2002 @07:10PM (#4954822) Homepage Journal
    At risk of bringing back memories of Jon Katz and "The Hellmouth"... A lot of the postings I'm seeing is that we geeks object more to the fact that information about us can be twisted to the benefit of those in power than to the fact that it's available in the first place. I also gather that this concern is totally lost on the "average" American.

    Could it be that the sorts of experiences we had as teenagers fosters these particular kinds of fears? One of the things that hurt me the most in high school was the way anything I said got twisted around as something to make fun of me for until the only way to escape was to never say anything. I've also got an enormous distrust of those in power and a persecution complex from hell, and all this is suddenly sounding very familiar now that I sit and think about it.

    Of course it's not a scientific argument by any means, but I have to wonder if there's something to debate here...
    • If you look hard for something peculiar, you *will* find it. If you expect something peculiar, you will find it. Without even working too hard.
      It works this way for (almost) everybody, including those who are always self-assured and are always in control of the situation.
      It may help to realize that you *must* live with yourself. There is no other way to do it. If you like yourself, and this is easier said than done, then nothing else really matters. Oddly enough, altruism works better than trying to get all you can get. It has to do with this person you *must* live with.
  • All the technology everyone wanted. all the convenience..

    Now that its here, its not so grand is it? I've been warning people for years this would happen, and was called a nut.

    Now that its here. I wish I had been wrong. And its only going to get worse.. far far worse..

    And anyone that thinks they can just 'avoid' it is either horribly naive or a moron.

  • With good and thorough use of encryption there is no reason we can't have all the high tech devices and conveniences imaginable and even more privacy than we had decades ago. Of course there is the small matter of the US ignoring the Fourth and other Amendments in the name of "fighting terrorism". Many other countries have their own supposed rights of much less importance than Big Brother government knowing all and controlling all also. Personally I will take freedom from government intrusion and take my chances with terrorists - as if such snooping is actually at all effective.

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I tell them to turn to the study of mathematics, for it is only there that they might escape the lusts of the flesh. -- Thomas Mann, "The Magic Mountain"

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