Great Firewall Of China Marches Forward 151
geophile writes: "This article in Salon says that China will be building its own 'very own information superhighway.'" The story basically repeats the optimistic-sounding promises of the Chinese government that the new system will be faster, safer, brighter and fight cavities, too, though it does mention in passing that the Chinese "government routinely blocks Web sites of foreign news organizations and groups it opposes." Speaking practically, how easily can the worldwide dataflow be arrested in a country as populous and geographically diffuse as China?
Blockaded? Easy! (Score:2)
Nicholas C Weaver
nweaver@cs.berkeley.edu
Visited china (Score:1)
Data goes in, data goes out (Score:1)
I wouldn't say that it would be easy, but if you limit the number of pipes available, and have monitoring software at each, you have pretty much blocked what the ruling party fears to be "contrary" to the party beliefs.
PS: Doesn't Carnivore and Echelon do just this? But instead of blocking just does a "cat incoming.mail |
It's China, It's Communism, I smell a dead horse.. (Score:1)
Every time there is an article about the internet in China, there are a ton of posts here on Slashdot about how bad it is that the Chinese government wants to control the access.
It's China. It's the Chinese communist government. The fact that they are furthering the exact same restrictive policies that they have performed for decades is not news.
Anonymous Proxies (Score:4)
I have my doubts about enforcing something like censorship on the net.
-----------
Resume [iren.net]
two ways to look at this: (Score:1)
2. The Chinese will have lag free games of Starcraft using their own network of fsg servers.
Hell, I'd build my own internet for that...
--
Peace,
Lord Omlette
ICQ# 77863057
Not easy to block but ... (Score:3)
Control the gates and you control the internet (Score:3)
Since then, I'm sure more bandwidth has been added but it is still all under the control of the (government controlled) ISPs. At these chokepoints, you can implement all the firewalling and filtering you care for.
let them be (Score:1)
How they do it... (Score:2)
If you want to be serious, look at a corporation. You may have 5,000 people all working for the same company, but only one internet link. You set the filter/firewall there and you've got control of what come in from the outside world (supposedly).
China vouches for security through obscurity. By keeping you from seeing something, they think that you won't know it's there. But it's rediculous. It's like pretending that a security flaw in a computer doesn't exist. If you don't tell a person it's not there, then they won't find it. We all know how wrong that is.
The way I see it, China'd be better off to just let its citizens see everything. They'll enjoy their little "pr0n" sites at home, read the news once in a while, and be content with their lives as always. All else being equal, you're most comfortable where you are. Why? Because people hate change. Hell, I'll bet at least half of the people in China would think that the way our government runs is ridiculous.
The summary: People hate being held back, so let them see what they want and a week later they won't care anymore.
CAP THAT KARMA!
Moderators: -1, nested, oldest first!
This problem was quite evident in my recent visit (Score:5)
I was able to confirm my understanding that all HTTP traffic in China is channeled through centralized filtering proxy servers. It can't even be called Internet Access. The proxy server would not handle anything other than HTTP and SMTP(which didn't work when I tried to send a message). I wanted to try using PuTTY to do ssh to my server at home in order to check up on email and other things, but this was impossible, even when I tried to configure the client to use the proxy.
There is no way for inhabitants of China to do normal IP routing between each other and the rest of the world. I suppose one could set something up to tunnel IP over HTTP, but other than that, they're out of luck. I would have rather had a straight ol' 2400 baud PPP connection to my U.S. ISP.
I understand that the Chinese government has good totalitarian reasons for censoring the Net, (although they are moving towards reform) but the system they use should be passive, and not involve tcp proxy servers.
I've seen systems that can simply monitor and replace ethernet packets that contain discedent HTTP data.
Re:It's China, It's Communism, I smell a dead hors (Score:2)
Its something the Government could easily do, but it would seriously affect it's usefulness and defeat the purpose of constructing this net in the first place.
I predict The Party will be unlikely to impose severe censorship, once they consider its benefits, and the internet will be a great enabler of positive change in The Peoples Republic.
Internet Free China (Score:3)
However, after this year's budget is passed, they will not be able to access porn and other sensitive material, because the satellite link will have censorWare on it. Oh well, looks like the US and China deserve each other after all.
You think filtering is effective ? (Score:1)
I thought EVERYONE knew filters dont work.
flamebait? (Score:1)
Re:Blockaded? Easy! (Score:2)
The ISP where I worked was desperately
trying to get away from going through
the phone company. Even after the break
up of ATT so many years ago, the phone
companies still have virtual monopolies
in the zone they have control in. This
is because they still control the
infrastructure.
We found the fastest way to circumvent
the infrastructure was to go wireless [softcom.net].
However, in China there would still be
the need to have physical towers that
the government could pinpoint.
Take it the next step and have a wireless
satellite system. I still think they
could target the customer base. You have
to collect your fees in some manner and
I am sure it would be easier for the
government to track the financial transactions
then to go after wireless satellites.
Anyways, the situation now is definately
a tragedy and food for thought.
Quite easy I'd think (Score:1)
Considering 95% of the population doesnt even have phones.
What's it like? (Score:1)
thanks,
--dave
Re:You think filtering is effective ? (Score:2)
Nicholas C Weaver
nweaver@cs.berkeley.edu
BBS (Score:1)
Easy way to filter (Score:2)
All they have to do, is block everything, but few (can be few thousands) sites.
Perfect censoship. Anything outside thouse few trusted doesn't even exists.
And if you have control over the gateways - there is no problem to do that.
As of monitory content inside this thing, it is
more difficult, but much easier to enforce on the physical level.
An Evil Government... (Score:4)
Not that I really need to repeat it for the
Sneaking "subversive" data past this firewall is a good cause, worthy of the efforts of the Rubberhose Project [rubberhose.org] and other open source initiatives designed to increase personal privacy and freedom. To all of those developers out there who are working on encryption or steganography software, these (Chinese citizens) are the people who really need your help.
A quote from the Xinhua report:
Notice that the needs of the people are not mentioned. The only legitimate purpose of government is to serve its people.
Well, what do you want (Score:1)
Everybody has the right to do what they want. Well, not when it's something I don't want.
--
Go ahead and try... (Score:1)
Only a communist totalitarian government, that is so in love with itself, and drunk on it's own invincibility could possibly think they can do what the Chineese are attempting.
All I need to see to reinforce my conservative, individualist beliefs in Western Civilization is stuff like this. You see, we don't need to HIDE everything from our citizens to keep them from discovering what bill of goods Mao sold them.
At least, for now... Unfortunately, the USA is sliding towards such a system, and is besides China, the biggest enemy of free speech on the internet right now. I hope things change. Because I know for a fact, when the jackboots start rounding up the free thinkers with the "wrong" ideas, I'll be one of them.
I Like Chinese (Score:1)
With nuclear bombs to blow us all sky high.
There are fools and idiots sitting on the trigger.
It's depressing, and it's senseless, and that's why...
Intro: I like Chinese,
I like Chinese,
They only come up to your knees,
Yet they're always friendly and they're ready to please.
Verse: I like Chinese,
I like Chinese,
There's nine hundred million of them in the world today,
You'd better learn to like them, that's what I say.
Chorus: I like Chinese,
I like Chinese,
They come from a long way overseas,
But they're cute and they're cuddly, and they're ready to please.
Verse: I like chinese food,
The waiters never are rude,
Think of the many things they've done to impress,
There's Maoism, Taoism, I Ching and chess.
Chorus: So I like Chinese,
I like Chinese,
I like their tiny little trees,
Their Zen, their ping-pong, their
yin and yang-ese.
Verse: I like Chinese thought,
The wisdom that Confucious taught,
If Darwin is anything to shout about,
The Chinese will survive us all without any doubt.
Chorus: So I like Chinese,
I like Chinese,
They only come up to your knees,
Yet they're wise and they're witty, and they're ready to please.
Verse: (in Chinese)
Chorus: I like Chinese,
I like Chinese,
Their food is guaranteed to please,
A fourteen, a seven, a nine and lychees.
Chorus: I like Chinese,
I like Chinese,
I like their tiny little trees,
Their Zen, their ping-pong, their yin and yang-ese.
Fade: I like Chinese,
I like Chinese...
Ease of restriction (Score:1)
Filters are great! (Score:1)
A few more resources on China's brand new net (Score:1)
http://www.chinaeconomicreview.com/htm/2000cbh339
http://dawning.iist.unu.edu/china/bjreview/98Nov/
http://www.bjreview.com.cn/BeijingReview/Spanish/
Inconsistent banning (Score:1)
It all comes down to one thing... (Score:1)
Mike Roberto
- GAIM: MicroBerto
Re:Control the gates and you control the internet (Score:2)
Under this system, the government is the same Communist one as the rest of China, however, socialism is strictly prohibited by international treaty, at risk of war.
So, if you lived in Hong Kong or other ex-colonies, you can recieve your Internet access from a privately owned and operated Internet Service Provider.
like a young (US Military) Internet (Score:1)
---end of political statement---
Hearing that the Chinese want to develop their own Internet style backbone reminds me of the history of our own Internet. It was NOT established so you could share your pr0n with users around the world. The Internet was made to serve the purposes of the American government.
What the Chinese government wishes to use their national infrastructure for is none of the West's business.
While it would be nice if this new network would be compatible with the Internet, and it may lead to better communications between cultures that are very different (so we can see each other without the tainted vision of the medias), it is really up to China to decide what their money is being spent on.
Re:How they do it... (Score:2)
You severely misunderstand their motives. It isn't meant to stop people from looking at pr0n but rather to control freedom of information (ideologies). The government is eliminating the ability to view news media which criticizes it's actions/policies.
The summary: People hate being held back, so let them see what they want and a week later they won't care anymore.
They don't like being held back if they don't understand anything else. Go read Brave New World by Aldous Huxley for a good understanding.
Re:BS (Score:2)
nice troll (Score:1)
Re:like a young (US Military) Internet (Score:1)
Don't you mean the money that has been pulled over the broken backs of its people though fifty years of communism, social revolution, and human rights violation? I doubt they have any say in it.
------------------------
Ribbon Campaign (Score:1)
If they want to stop all politically objectionable sites, and presumably sites that link to them, all you have to do is start a 'Stop Internet Censorship in China' Colored Ribbon Campaign. If it becomes as popular as the blue ribbon was, there simply won't be any pages to speak of that don't speak negatively (at least a little) of the chinese government.
Re:FP Losers (Score:1)
Doesn't do shit for encapsulated protocols & proxy (Score:2)
Just get yourself a shell account in Hong Kong, and run a slip connection. Or look for a Windows webproxy... they're usually unsecured and don't have logging (logging has a tendancy to lag inferior OS's like Microsoft's
Heck, if they block everything well enough, they could resort to that TCP/IP over DNS trick posted here a while back.
Of course, if the government fails to maintain hold on power, it won't become a pipe-dream democracy. It will probably be controlled by the same corporations owned by the China goverment... who will promptly buy out all of the national press (much like the USA with self-sensoring networks).
If things REALLY look radical in China, they could just impose an Electoral College. It's a time-tested technique for maintaining a duopoly.
Posted anonymously, because my name is in my email address, and someday my employer could always be bought out by a foreign corporation...
It's not the same in the whole of China (Score:1)
All major foreign news sites were banned wherever I tried, except in Shanghai. Also, there was CNN on hotel cable. Seems like Shanghai is the most liberal city in China.
Do you have DSL? (Score:1)
Re:I Like Chinese (Score:1)
Re:flamebait? (Score:1)
Re:An Evil Government... (Score:1)
Re:flamebait? (Score:1)
Re:An Evil Government... (Score:1)
Re:An Evil Government... (Score:1)
Re:like a young (US Military) Internet (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Additional Fodder (Score:1)
It's a good thing, too! (Score:1)
Martial Law (Score:1)
1.Entering computer information networks involved with national affairs, national defense or advanced technology
2.Spreading slander and rumors or publicizing harmful information on the Internet
3.Stealing or disclosing state, intelligence or military secrets through the Internet
4.Inciting ethnic hatred and discrimination or sabotaging national unity through the Internet
5.Organizing a cult and keeping in touch with cult members, or undermining the enforcement of state laws and regulations through the Internet
6.Selling fake or substandard products, or advertising goods and services in a deceitful way through the Internet
7.Damaging the reputation of a business or a commodity through the Internet
8.Infringing upon the intellectual property of others through the Internet
9.Fabricating false information affecting securities and futures trading or otherwise disturbing the financial order through the Internet
10.Setting up pornographic Web sites or Web pages, providing access to pornographic Web sites, or spreading pornographic books, movies, video products and photos on the Internet
11.Insulting or defaming other people on the Internet
12.Illegally intercepting, altering or deleting others' e-mail or data, infringing upon citizens' freedom and confidentiality of communication, and
13.Committing theft, fraud and atrocities through the Internet.
Considering some of these laws [internet.com] it should come as no surprise they would attempt something like this. What strikes some odd notes is the buddhists practices in China which teach so much about life. Its pretty sad.
So let everyone rant on about Chinese people who can go about using proxy servers but the fact of the matter is not too many Chinese people will risk going to jail trying to circumvent issues. Sure there will be those who will attempt to circmvent the systems there, but I highly doubt anyone will be risking penalties.
Circumventing Carnivore [antioffline.com]
Heres your Award (Score:1)
Maybe you should re-read your history and check where you came from since I'm almost sure somewhere down the line you were intermixed with some minority group like it or not.
You should humble yourself to life and get a grip on your anger. Even while this may be a joke and I sure as hell love to joke, you have issues. White, black, chinese, Indian, really wouldn't make a difference to me, I determine how, where my life goes and the choices which would allow me better opportunities in life, not some political based `illuminist' theory based group who's catapulting minorities to save face.
Color blind [antioffline.com]
Long live proxy servers in the free world (Score:1)
--------
The freedom of the press belongs to those who own (Score:2)
How can one control data? By funnelling it through a few discrete points and heavily controlling what gets transmitted, which is exactly what Sun Microsystems is doing for China (they have the contract.)
By filtering what ports are used, analyzing transmitted content, forbidding & prosecuting use of cryptography (with a distinct lack of due process) etc. China call well control internet use within it's borders.
China has one of the lowest penetration rates of telephones in the world. Computers are generally only available limited circumstances. The percentage of computers with internet access is even lower, not something one sees in private homes of even the wealthy. Under these heavily controlled and highly accountable conditions can you imagine much "unauthorized use"? Particularly considering the possible repercussions?
Information wants to be free, and yes the 'net does route around censorship, but when one controls all of the lines one controls all of the routes around. Even in cases where material makes it though the dangers of being caught with it make it unlikely to propagate far.
Sure there are ways around it but we're not talking US school kids getting access to porn; we're talking ruined careers at best, an involuntary organ donation or a bullet through the back of the head at worst. As time goes on opportunities for 'getting lost in the flow' become greater but so does the technical sophistication of those monitoring use.
I'm sure the expat. Chinese news sites have guesstimates but from all accounts I've seen information flow within the PRC is indeed tightly controlled and by-and-large remaining so. General information gets through but politically sensitive material seems to be rather effectively smothered. Indeed the CIA World Factbook 2000 ed.(generally fairly good about numbers) lists China as having only 3 ISPs.
Of course censorship kills. (Score:4)
Nor did many Nazi leaders.
Censorship can prevent life-saving information from being spread. Much of the overpopulation of the last 2000 years can be attributed to lack of knowledge about contraception, which has been (and still is) actively censored by religious pressure groups.
The Dark Ages were the best example for the killing power of censorship. During that time, the church held a monopoly on the truth -- and the consequence was that most knowledge of ancient times was lost or suppressed, and science stagnated, which was especially important with regard to the medical profession, which practically did not exist. I have a huge file on the absurd rituals and practices that were used to "heal" people in the Dark Ages. Demons were believed to cause all illnesses, and those who strayed from this belief were outcasts and often persecuted. As you may know, exorcism is still practiced by the Catholic Church, even in the Vatican.
The fact that repressive governments like China can remain in power and continue to kill people is also a direct consequence of the fact that they censor information that could mean change. Censorship prevents change, and change can save lives.
Recently on German TV, there was a documentary about a US sect that prevented the use of traditional medicine. They showed a cemetery where all the victims of this irrationality, many of them children, were buried. Surely these people would love it if nobody had access to this information. By trying to pass legislation that would have outlawed a lot of drug-related information on the Net, the US gov't would have done the first step in that direction.
Always remember: Where they burn books, people are next. Censorship kills. Sooner or later.
--
Why does the USA suck up to China? (Score:1)
I really don't get it. China kills a bunch of students in Tiannamen, is a ruthless communist dictatorship, and yet the USA has, at every opportunity, sucked up so bad to them.
Why doesn't the USA treat China like it treats Cuba?
Why is it China gets preferred trading status with the USA, while Cuba gets an embargo?
It seems to me that the USA _wants_ China to have a shitty government.
Re:Control the gates and you control the internet (Score:1)
BTW, China is not a communist country, at least not anymore. It is becoming more and more of a fascist state.
Re:Land of the Free? (Score:1)
The internet is redrawing geography. It is a world mostly without borders and without government. It is for all intents and purposes an exercise in anarchy. It does have its positives (Unlimited freedom) and occasional negatives (Violations of other peoples freedoms.) China's moves to censor the internet may very well work, in the short term. But humans have a nack for eventually overcoming opression, whatever its form may be. The natural world works by slow evolution - slowly, some of the opressed of today (the majority of the country, im assuming) will enter into their government, affecting change, slowly but surely.
The "new geography" of the internet may allow this change to happen much quicker - the electronic world works by rapid microevolution. From this outsiders view, the elder chineese are comfortable in their way of life - they view the world differently than their children. Some of their children view the world with youthful vigor and rebellion - they see the grass on the other side of the ocean, and see that it is greener - or rather, it is different. They want that to be part of their world. They will probably grow up to be part of the machine - but a slightly "flawed" part of that machine, one that may slowly affect the change to democracy, or a completely different, better system of government, in the future.
Just my two cents.
Democracy is the worst system of government created, except for all others - Winston Churchill
Re:This problem was quite evident in my recent vis (Score:1)
---
Re:Not easy to block but ... (Score:1)
-Leto (always giving the unpopular view a voice)
Fear my low SlashID! (bidding starts at $500)
Re:BS (Score:1)
From the xdsl FAQ [interaccess.com]:
[3.1]How does xDSL work?
xDSL utilizes more of the bandwidth on copper phone lines than what is currently used for plain old telephone service (POTS). By utilizing frequencies above the telephone bandwidth (300Hz to 3,200Hz), xDSL can encode more data to achieve higher data rates than would otherwise be possible in the restricted frequency range of a POTS network. In order to utilize the frequencies above the voice audio spectrum, xDSL equipment must be installed on both ends and the copper wire in between must be able to sustain the higher frequencies for the entire route. This means that bandwidth limiting devices such as loading coils must be removed or avoided.
--
Huge population = huge market (Score:1)
What these types are... (Score:1)
Re:Of course censorship kills. (Score:1)
China is one of the few countries with functional restrictions on the number of children per couple. I don't care whether it's from ignorance, blindness, or censorship, population controls needed to be in place yesterday. With access to the proper information or not, the general population is too blind to understand that it's not just their problem when they pop out 10 kids.
Condoms for Christians!
Program called HTTPtunnel that does that... (Score:1)
TCP/IP is your friend. :)
http://www.nocrew.org/software/httptunnel.html [nocrew.org]
Re:Land of the Free? (Score:1)
Re:Do you have DSL? (Score:2)
I now have a 3com ADSL modem. It has a DEFINITE noise problem without the splitter. Even without the splitter, people complain that the line sounds echoey.
`ø,,ø!
Re:Martial Law (Score:1)
--
Fragmenting the Internet (Score:2)
My Main observation is to take this into the larger context.
As I said earlier, we seem to be walking in a directions where the internet is being divided into large areas of fenced in territory owned by large corporations and other entities, with small time operators getting the left overs. What makes this all the more believable are little details like this mornings AP news story about mainland China's announcement that they are building their own information superhighway. To quote from the story:
it is very easy to take a short range cynical look at all of this. And it is very easy to "poo-poo" all this, and to say that it will never happen here, or that it will never be effective, that it won't last.But the problem is that we are walking in the direction of a fragmented segmented internet. We seem to be walking in a directions where the internet is being divided into large areas of fenced in territory owned by governments, large corporations, and other entities, with small time operators getting the left overs. And all to many people, governments, and companies are willing to sell us the fencing, the barbed wire, for our own good.
Take a look at the incident with Yahoo these past few months in France. I do not think that this is what we want.
It will surely happen if people do not constantly make the internet free.
advertising slogan (Score:3)
Actually... (Score:1)
Re:fdddfdd (Score:1)
$$$$$ (Score:1)
That's all that matters to this country. Talk is cheap when it comes to things like Tibetan/Taiwan rights. It's also cheap when speaking of Tiannamen square but where there's $$$ to be made, all is forgotten and forgiven.
That's also why Rwanda happened. A group of people killed with better efficiency than the nazis efforts to the jews, but we let it go on. We probably would have let it happened to Kosovo also but that's too close to the rest of Europe.
Then there's Iraq invading Kuwait and the stories (later proven the be false) of Iraqi soldiers dumping babies on the floor from their incubators.
There's nothing to exploit in Kosovo or Rwanda. There is definitely something to exploit in China, money, money, money.
Now as far as the pesky firewall is concerned, assuming China keeps a firewall up that allows some of the internet in, there's always the hope of peer to peer.
That would be a kool idea, dissemination of news via a Gnutella like program.
China and Linux (Score:1)
Now that Al Gore lost the election perhaps he could go and invent the Chinese information superhighway also.
Re:Visited china (Score:2)
Nick
Re:Land of the Free? (Score:1)
Nick
Re:nice troll (Score:1)
Re:flamebait? (Score:1)
Re:flamebait? (Score:1)
Re:flamebait? (Score:1)
Re:flamebait? (Score:1)
Re:flamebait? (Score:1)
The real problem is bandwidth, not control.... (Score:1)
While I've never used the Internet in China myself, I have studied the subject, and it seems that the real culprit for the slow loadtime of foreign webpages is probably the fact that the country has only 1234 Mbps of international bandwidth. Considering the pace of growth in Chinese internet use, I'm not surprised to discover that accessing foreign websites takes time.
While official statistics peg the total number of "Internet users" at 16.9 million today, it's revealing that the government agency responsible for these estimates, CNNIC [cnnic.gov.cn], reveals that Chinese citizens have a total of 65 million email accounts. Even this figures probably underestimates the situation, considering that many Chinese use foreign-based webmail services such as hotmail (it's not clear to me if THESE accounts are factored into the 65 million estimate).
So bascially, China has about as much international bandwidth as a large American university has domestic bandwidth (and think of what Napster ALONE did to those networks....), with literally millions upon millions of more users accessing "foreign" content. While this renders right-wing fears of DOS attacks from China somewhat silly, it explains perfectly well why accessing American sites may take a lot of time if you're in China.
Re:China and Linux (Score:1)
Frankly, I think you'd have to be either stupid or foreign to buy a registered copy of the OS when you can pick up an illegal one for only a few yuan.
(not that I'm advocating piracy....)
Re:like a young (US Military) Internet (Score:1)
Communism is about one thing: control. Tell the people that there will be no rich people because the money will be redistributed to the poor, and they'll buy it, not realizing that they're handing over their person freedom to conduct thier lives as they see fit.
------------------------
Re:Anonymous Proxies (Score:1)
-----------------------------------
Re:Blockaded? Easy! (Score:1)
About Chinese ISPs... (Score:1)
So, you don't see many independent ISPs, and those that are usually run ancillary services like internet cafes.
--Perianwyr Stormcrow
Re:An Evil Government... (Score:1)
I say we carpet bomb them, flat out!
That is the American Way...Yeeeahaaaww!
Re:You think filtering is effective ? (Score:2)
Re:let them be (Score:2)
I was hunting for this quote [fitug.de] from the NAZI era, but I found an 'update' with a more direct bent.
GRRR!
`ø,,ø!
Glass houses (Score:1)
As we all know, the US would never do anything of the kind -- say, at places such as Kent State, Wounded Knee or Waco. Of course, genocide -- of, say, Native Americans -- is right out. Government-approved slavery? Class- and race-biased justice? Fifty thousand hand-gun deaths a year? Student massacres in public schools? Shooting down civilian air flights? Blowing up of federal buildings in Kansas City? Nope. No way. Never happen. Not in "no blood on our hands" America -- the most violent society on earth.
Now those godless, commie Chinese -- hey, you can never tell what pure evil those sub-humans are capable of.
these (Chinese citizens) are the people who really need your help.
Thank you so much for your (highly paternalistic) concern. The problem is America has such a myopic sense of history -- as if the world didn't know how to take care of itself before 1776. But the Chinese were tending their affairs 4,000 years before America appeared on the scene to save the world from itself. And I imagine we'll still be here long after the US has faded to a distant memory.
There was a wise man once long ago who said, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Words to live by.
Very easily.. (Score:1)
It needs to happen slowly.
If china had a revolt and the existing structures fell apart, large sections of its population would start to go hungry. Hungry people are like scared people (Isralies) they go to war quickly. So let them block the internet what harm can it do, none. The world needs to be introduced to the main bulk of chinas' people slowly or china will fall apart and that would be bad... Oh, I am not a great fan of chinese way of government, I just dont see the need for lots of people to be put through the ringer for sake of adopting our western cultural ideas..
Re:BS (Score:3)
"None of you even know how your own telephone works. That you might even suggest making a 'long distance ADSL call' from China to the US underscores your ignorance. For heavens sake, shut up!"
Sadly I found no such post and had to write one myself.
Ryan
Re:Visited china (Score:2)
> Communist economy it pays big to have the
> government like you
Shit, every neighbor reading my posts and they ALL have moderator access!
Ryan
Re:oh please (Score:3)
Ryan
Re:Of course censorship kills. (Score:2)
Boy do you need a basic history refresher. As you (quite obviously) don't know, it was the Church which preserved scientific knowledge and learning throughout the Middle Ages.
Since the church was indeed the only place where "education" was allowed, it was the only place where a faint resemblance of knowledge was preserved. Indeed, many of the ancient writings were copied, copied, and copied again, usually without giving much thought to their content. However, most of what existed in ancient times disappeared, and much of it was changed in the Middle Ages was also faked. The monks of the MA are known as the greatest fakers in history. For example, 60% of the documents of the Merowingian dynasty are known to be fakes, usually with the intention to give their creators more privileges or real estate.
Often the actual writings of ancient scientists were overwritten for mere lack of paper:
More interesting than what these monks have preserved is the question what we have lost, a majority of ancient writings, complete encyclopaedias, writings on palaeontology, medicine, physics, astronomy. Often writings that contradicted the "morality" of the medieval church. Some of this is still being recovered from the ruins of Pompeii and Herculaneum.
Monastic scriptoria churned out copies of Aristotle, Plato, Archimedes, Euclid, Ptolemy, Homer, Virgil ... and Galen, since you mention medical sciences,
Correct, Galen's ideas were taken and preserved without ever examining or even extending them. However, most of the knowledge by Galen and Hippocrates was not practically applied but "canonically" interpreted. Anatomy, surgery, dissection of corpses and the recognition of epidemics were seen as sins, and, as church historian Deschner points out, often punishable with death - in some places, until the 18th century! For centuries, doctors were only allowed to treat diseases of the abdomen if it was properly covered by lots of blankets. One of the most popular ways to combat the "Black Death" was sacrifice.
Here is the official statement by Paris university on the causes of the pest:
"We, the members of the faculty of the doctors of Paris, have, after careful consideration and debate about the current deaths, taken the advice of thet old masters of this profession... and we want to reveal the causes of the pest more clear and more open than possible by the principles of astrology and science." They recognized the cause in solar energy and the warmth of the "heavenly fire": "Steams develop which cover the sun and change its light into darkness. It repeats all the time, and this way part of our waters is spoiled." etc. They appealed to the stars to heal humanity, and suggested sexual abstinence as a preventive measure.
Did you know that one of the most important scientists of the late MA, Roger Bacon, wrote a whole book about how to capture and ride a dragon?
Lastly, let me quote a translation of Soldan's "Geschichte der Hexenprozesse" I started a couple of years ago:
and which for many centuries did not exist outside of monastic libraries
What a great perception of knowledge, where knowledge is considered too powerful or dangerous to be actually applied, examined or expanded.
Astronomy, mathematics, cartography, botany, medicine, logic and rhetoric -- there isn't a branch of medieval learning which wasn't preserved in
Yeah, we got it. The monks copied the stuff of ancient times without adding to it for fear of being persecuted. They changed or discarded what they disliked. Most importantly, this knowledge could not be applied until the Renaissance, when finally the intellectual handcuffs of the church began to crumble. Do you actually realize what you're writing?
The only schools in existence for nearly a thousand years were in the monastaries and cathedrals of the Catholic Church.
Yep, because the Catholic Church, which was the relevant source of power over the whole Middle Ages, did not want the general population to be educated. However, of course they did want the clergy to be educated to better control and manipulate the populace.
Oh, just so you don't get a wrong impression WRT the size of the medieval libraries .. while the library of Alexandria, the largest of ancient times, held 700,000 to 1,000,000 scrolls, and the library of a rich citizen of Roman times held around 30,000 scrolls, one of the largest libraries of the Middle Ages for which we have data, that of the crusader fortress of Cluny, didn't hold 100,000 books, not 10,000, not even 1,000, no, around 420.
All the great universities of Europe -- and many in America -- owe their origins to Church patronage of learning.
Because that was the origin where they could have come from.
During some of the darkest periods of Western history the monk was the most highly educated member of society.
Yep, as I said, education for the ruling class.
Den of ignorance?
Yes, compared with ancient times, the monks of the Dark Ages were, well, crazy as shithouse rats, as outlined by their actual practices. If you speak German, go here [pfaffenspiegel.de], you'll find the complete copy of "Der Pfaffenspiegel", one of the most important works of church criticism, written in the 19th century. It gives you more examples than I can ever churn out, but if you insist, I will give you some.
To the contrary, the Church was the great educational force of the medieval ages, at a time when the world outside monastic walls had abandoned the fire of knowledge.
ROTFL. How selective can your perception get? The church was not only the only place where knowledge was preserved, it was also the center of power! The abandonment of knowledge "outside monastic walls" was not a free decision by the citizens ("Oh! All this Roman ancient knowledge stuff. Who needs it? I will rather starve or be a slave to some rich landlord!"), but a direct imposition by the church, which not only spread disinformation called belief, controlled the populace through churches and cults, but also directly persecuted and often eradicated all movements that were contrary to the Catholic belief.
Boethius, Cassiodorus, and later the saintly Bede, Isidore of Seville, and Alcuin -- these were the great educators of their time, and they were universally children of the Church.
You can repeat it as often as you want to, it doesn't get any more logical. Of course the educated people came from the church, as nobody else was allowed to be educated.
In the twelfth century the Church conceived and nurtured the Renaissance.
The church was a source of ancient knowledge when, because of the loss of power suffered by the church, it became possible to use and distribute this knowledge again. However, as you well know, the church itself remained a fiery fighter against science in the next centuries, burning thousands of books and the people who wrote them.
The fact is that for nearly a thousand years in the West, scientific knowledge and learning existed nowhere except in monasteries and Church-sponsored centers of education.
Thanks for, again, pointing this out.
Instead of castigating the Church for its ignorance
I castigate it for its fear of the truth, which was the reason that the preservation of knowledge was only permitted within church walls, its application only if reconcilable with the primitive medieval worldview.
you should be down on your knees in gratitude for what it had preserved when all others had turned their backs.
Your selective perception is so remarkable that a book could be written about it. The rest of your comment repeats the same "The church was the only place of knowledge, therefore the church is good" argument, which is one of the most ridiculous attempts at apologism I have ever heard. Next you're probably going to babble about how the crusades were necessary and the inqusition had to be seen in the context of history, the witchhunts weren't that bad either (hey, the Protestants did it, too!) and anti-semitism, well, uh, yeah, the church did nothing compared to the nazis!
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Re:An Evil Government... (Score:2)
WTF? How can you move towards the "common good" unless you think you know what that is (i.e., think you know what's best for your people)?
Generally, governments that assume they know the needs of their people better than their people are tyrannical.
Re:An Evil Government... (Score:2)
For example in this country (well the US) it was once thought that slavery was a good and necessary thing for the "common good", after that it was believed by a majority of people (in the South) that segregation was needed to protect the "common good" I mean after all the majority of people who made up the government at the time thought these were good things, and after all the government is of the people, by the people and for the people so they must of been right.
A more modern example would be the anti-smoking facism sweeping the country now. It's true that most Americans are non-smokers now, and of those a small percentage are the type of anti-smoking nazis that wants to outlaw it everywhere. The anti-smoking facists manage to get a motion on the ballots that would outlaw smoking in all sorts of places, all the non-smokers vote for it because it doesn't really impact them. It starts in resteraunts, then bars, and pretty soon the state is making it illegal to smoke in your car and even your own home (which I believe is the case in certian parts of California) Again the tyranny of the masses, led by some self rightous jackasses claiming to be acting for the "common good".
What you and a lot of other people fail to realize is that there is no such thing as the "common good" People all have different ideas, different needs and different goals in life (all good things BTW!) and the only way to help advance everyone's interests is too simply provide people with as much personal freedom as possible, short of allowing them to knowlingly and directly cause others harm. In fact that should be a governments only job, to protect the freedom and liberty of it's citizens. As soon as you start legislating for the "common good" you just begin eroding peoples freedoms and liberty and pretty soon no one has any freedoms left because they've all been legislated away for the "common good".