...in times of "communism", there was far more freedom than it gets to be in the US. It's sad that a country that boasts to be the most 'free' in the world, slowly becomes another empire of evil, democracy no longer fulfilling its purpose, law in hands of corporations, money being the highest value, crime and violence becoming leading powers driving the economy. It's just sad.
You know, if you're going to burn your karma, you might as well bring some facts to the table to back it up. Heck, just post in Polish, Im sure we could Babel fish a translation from ya.
Except of really absolutely necessary laws, the only limitation was: Don't fight the system. At least, not from outside. Which means: You could join the party, climb the career ladder and once gaining significant power, help guiding the system towards something more 'accessible'. And that was often done. They stopped condemning rock music, instead they pursued engaging it on their side (see the Manaam band), they had to ballance giving as much freedom to people against becoming "too liberal" in eyes of Moscow, especially giving real show in "fighting the enemies of the system" - the oppression of the opposition news were often bloated purposedly, just to show "how faithful we are". The police was really effective, and while you had to carry your ID with yourself at all times and show it to the police on demand (often), nobody really minded that - "Thank you citizen, you are free" was what you always heard if you weren't a criminal. What is really important, the laws were extremely liberal. Nobody even thought about banning homosexuality. Marriages? No, not really, but prison? What for? Real law. Pornography allowed 18+, sex - 16+. No fiction of "sex since 18, alcohol since 21". Soft drugs allowed in small amounts for personal use. Hard drugs illegal and mostly unknown. Besides, the youth had far more interesting stuff to do than to drug themselves, start gang wars, rob people. Ever heard about The Palace of Culture and Science, by name of Stalin? A big building in the centre of Warsaw, impressive for its times. A network of such institutions worked thorough the whole country. Purpose: clubs, for mostly every hobby you could ever think of. Computer labs, car models, plane models, chorus, radioelectronics, carpentry, aquariums, all kinds of sport sections, games, theatre, dance, a section for any good activity you could think of for your child, could be found there - and children loved it. Funded in great part by the state, well equipped workshops, decent instructors/trainers, place for every kid and teenager to spend their time in interesting and creative way. And criminals were really looked down upon, because people knew these do what they do just because they are too lazy for a honest job. Not to get their bread. Because despite the fact I could eat bananas maybe once or twice a year, when they appeared at the shop, everyone could afford their living, food, nobody was homeless, nobody was without work. If you happened to be without work while able to work, you were quite suspect. So called Blue Bird (polish Niebieski Ptak, russian Sinaya Ptica), either you lived from some money your family abroad sent you, or you performed some illegal activity... unless you just asked the social support for help. It was substantial enough to provide living to anyone too lazy to work, not high-standard though. Besides, it paid to work really. Forget the money, they didn't mean really much. But privledges. Vacations in your firm's contracted or owned hotel (Black Sea? Yugoslavia? Romania?), discounts on multitude of services, "christmas gifts", coupons to buy poorly available goods, countless other profits other than financial. You didn't HAVE TO work. You were just pretty much encouraged to do so. And one wonderful thing I miss really deeply: Honesty and trust. You could travel whole eastern europe by hitchikng. You could leave your tent out in the wild for whole days without fear somebody would steal anything. You could ask a perfect stranger in the country to let you sleep overnight at their place and they would greet you warmly. Of course the unwritten rule of "do not steal" applied only to private property. Public property was stolen at will, and that's one of several reasons why the system collapsed. And if you were an artist, writer or such, you just belonged to an association which would pay you a monthly salary for writing books, playing music etc, and then provided them to the public for funny money. A record (vinyl) for as much as a loaf of bread. A book for about the same.
it wasn't freedom that people fought for. It was the shiny shop shelves bending under weight of wares, it was fast cars, big luxury houses that most of the people who fought thought they would have. Their mistake as to the character of capitalism appeared shortly after, and homeless, redundant, criminals came as a shock. Nobody who came from the US with a bag of dollars ever mentioned them. Nobody mentioned that people may die because they can't aford medicine; they can freeze to death because real estate agents get hold of empty houses and offer them for sale for the rich. Nobody thought they would burn alive because of home-made coal heating, because they can't afford gas for central heating.
Some people earned lots. Some lost all.
Not to mention most of state-funded institutions. Nowadays the best teenagers can do is to go and rob someone, watch TV, and drink beer. Build your own RC car? How? Tools! Parts! Knowledge! Cost! Completely beyond reach.
Most of Eastern Europe fell from inefficient communism into brutal capitalism because of all the money to be made (for the very few rich), when what they needed was the efficient socialism of, e.g., Sweden.
In Sweden, most people don't pay taxes, which are income based in two brackets -- the bottom bracket pays 0%, and the upper bracket, which begins at 10% above the mean wage earned amounts to a tax of 57% of the portion of income above that level. As you might imagine, Sweden's system compresses almost everyone into the middle class while still allowing for plenty of incentive. This has resulted in an economy that looks perfect from the perspective of a capitalist or communist nation, with ultra-low unemployment, inflation, national debt, poverty, and infant mortality, and ultra-high longevity, per-capita spending power, and literacy. They have a thriving economy at all sizes of business, from sole-proprietorships to multinationals (e.g., Ikea, Volvo, Ericsson.) Sweden frequently ranks as the #1 place in the world to live on aggregate quality-of-life rankings.
I don't understand why so many of the post-communist countries aren't following Sweden's lead.
Out of curiosity, do you have any data on the (un)employment rates for non-European immigrants in Scandinavian countries, and their proportion to the total population? (Just for the record, I'm NOT treating "Europeanness" as independently relevant here.)
Let's not forget that Sweden had the slight advantage of not being crushed to smithereens by both the Nazis and the Soviets, so it actually has the long-term economic and social stability which is required for a full welfare state.
In Sweden, most people don't pay taxes You made this up yourself? The only ones who don't pay taxes in Sweden are students (if you don't count the 25% VAT).
the bottom bracket pays 0%, and the upper bracket, which begins at 10% above the mean wage earned amounts to a tax of 57%
Totaly wrong. Just isnt so.
with ultra-low unemployment, Yeah, only like 7-8% or so.
inflation, OK, you had a lucky guess....
national debt, but just one:)
I don't hate the country I live in... but trust me, it ai
I'm swedish, and I like living here, but get your facts straight!
Living here is good, that is true, but it is not the utopia you make it out to be.
You are describing Sweden in the 70's, not in the 00's. (Being completely intact after WWII gave us a good head start...)
After a slight crisis in the 90's national debt is up, unemployment is up a bit, and we are over all more on par with other western european countries.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm told [cia.gov] that Sweden's unemployment is 4% and national debt is 30% of annual GDP, or about US$7500 per capita.
Well...
The open unemployment rate was around 5% [riksbank.se] in october 2003.
And, concerning the debt:
The CIA Worldbook uses old numbers (1994).
It only counts external debt, not internal.
The total Swedish national debt is 50% of GDP (end of 2002) and currently sinking slowly.
It may sound like a lot, but is actually less than the total would have been during the period the CIA Worldbook covers (we had a economic crisis in the early 90's. Since then, the administration has made a point of getting rid of the debt,
I remember reading on yahoo news that an average Swede earns less than African Americans - the lowest earning group in USA.
And that's before tax...
I am sure they are getting a bit more perks from the government than one can expect to get in US, but I like to consider myself an responsible adult and therefore I value my right to decide how am I going to spend MY money. If Swedes prefer to surrender that right to some faceless bureaucrat - that's their problem.
Answer: Miracles of democracy + American propaganda.
The problem is average IQ of 100 is damn low. People with this IQ and less have just enough votes to simply outvote the wise ones, and when their brains are being fed with pulp of "American Dream" and "Terror of Communism", seeing their boring, old, grey, average day [1], they just voted for the change, in hopes everyone could be some Easy Rider, Commando, Carrington, or whoever... So they voted capitalism. And what you suggested is represented nowadays by
Sweden is the most beautiful nation in the world, with the most beautiful women (they all look like Elin, Tiger's girl), and the friendliest people. We're the #1 nation in many respects.
When it comes to taxes, we're #1 too. According to the traditional definition of taxation (sum of taxes as a percentage of the gross national product), the sum of taxes in the year 2002 was the highest in Sweden with 50,6 percent. The EU average
Right, so I should have said: Just over half the Swedes don't pay national income tax, and in some regions, more than half don't pay any regional income tax either. I completely forgot about the VAT, which is a horribly regressive sales tax.
Most of Eastern Europe fell from inefficient communism into brutal capitalism
Bullshit. The Eastern European countries which had a bad time suffered from theft from the state by cronies of the politicians. Capitalism was not possible in these countries because capitalism needs a functioning legal system.
Capitalism is the creation of wealth, not the concentration of existing wealth.
Out of curiousity, were you even alive during the time of the Solidarity Movement and martial law or before?
Problems? Main problem was availablity of consumer goods, and their quality. Everything was poor quality, it was hard to find good stuff, not enough of everything but the very basic. Freedom? Who cares? We had mostly all the freedom we ever wanted, with one -tiny- exception. No jokes, no attacks, no bitching about the government. Taboo. Easy as that. So... it wasn't freedom that people fought for.
The best Polish teenagers are doing very much the same thing as the best European teenagers.
That's the very point: the best. And anything from "poor" to "above average" is ears deep in shit I have described. Of course it's no problem to buy the tools, books, parts... with one tiny exception, an average family father would have to sacrifice about yearly salary to provide the kid with equipment similar to what they had in the workshops.
Sharp, do you have anything which would substantiate the notion that such workshops were available to the clueless rural youth you're championing, that the average salary is now below 500zl (parts would be cheaper in Poland, anyway), and that Polish society lacks upward mobility? On this last point, I can ask my uncle how things went as he moved from selling TV remotes off a blue cot at the stadium to running a profitable electronics partnership and owning a large, marble-filled home (the new rich, and thei
Sharp, do you have anything which would substantiate the notion that such workshops were available to the clueless rural youth you're championing,
Yes. mostly every village had some kind of 'culture centre'. Usually that was at the fire service station, where certainly not -as- much as in the cities could be done, but still libraries, art groups, meetings with celebrities of art and culture were often held there. But rural was never the worst problem, people always can feed themselves from their own crops,
I remember Poland too, (not to mention Ukraine, Rumania,...) when you had to bribe everybody just to get a normal contract. (Honesty ? Trust?) I guess the situation was a tad more complex than what you described and interestingly enough some people whould use almost identical words to decribe the situation under the Baathist regime in Bagdad. Recently someone claimed the conformism was worst than fundamentalism. At the time I was doubtful, but after a post like this I can start to see a point.
Sir, what you write mostly is not true and I honestly doubt if you really do remember the People's Republic of Poland. Let me focus on some particular points:
They stopped condemning rock music, instead they pursued engaging it on their side (see the Manaam band)
And what exactly should we see about it? (BTW: it's Maanam [maanam.pl], not Manaam). Maybe the fact that in 1980's its music was banned from public radio (and there was no private radio) for the band's refusal to participate in some stupid Polish-Soviet Fri
Why argue... twisting facts, stretching the truth...
Like the Hiacinth Action. I'm reading about it now, I didn't know it. True, arrested, put on record and... released. Nobody was really hurt. All they had to do was to sign statements that they -are- gays. The documents were classified. And the action was a measure against spreading AIDS, to help lower crime rates in homosexual environment (higher than hetero, and detection rate lower) and against leaders of -underground- gay organisation. Besides that, it
When I remember Poland... (Score:1, Insightful)
It's just sad.
Re:When I remember Poland... (Score:-1, Flamebait)
Re:When I remember Poland... (Score:5, Interesting)
Except of really absolutely necessary laws, the only limitation was: Don't fight the system. At least, not from outside. Which means: You could join the party, climb the career ladder and once gaining significant power, help guiding the system towards something more 'accessible'. And that was often done. They stopped condemning rock music, instead they pursued engaging it on their side (see the Manaam band), they had to ballance giving as much freedom to people against becoming "too liberal" in eyes of Moscow, especially giving real show in "fighting the enemies of the system" - the oppression of the opposition news were often bloated purposedly, just to show "how faithful we are". The police was really effective, and while you had to carry your ID with yourself at all times and show it to the police on demand (often), nobody really minded that - "Thank you citizen, you are free" was what you always heard if you weren't a criminal.
What is really important, the laws were extremely liberal. Nobody even thought about banning homosexuality. Marriages? No, not really, but prison? What for? Real law. Pornography allowed 18+, sex - 16+. No fiction of "sex since 18, alcohol since 21". Soft drugs allowed in small amounts for personal use. Hard drugs illegal and mostly unknown. Besides, the youth had far more interesting stuff to do than to drug themselves, start gang wars, rob people. Ever heard about The Palace of Culture and Science, by name of Stalin? A big building in the centre of Warsaw, impressive for its times. A network of such institutions worked thorough the whole country. Purpose: clubs, for mostly every hobby you could ever think of. Computer labs, car models, plane models, chorus, radioelectronics, carpentry, aquariums, all kinds of sport sections, games, theatre, dance, a section for any good activity you could think of for your child, could be found there - and children loved it. Funded in great part by the state, well equipped workshops, decent instructors/trainers, place for every kid and teenager to spend their time in interesting and creative way.
And criminals were really looked down upon, because people knew these do what they do just because they are too lazy for a honest job. Not to get their bread. Because despite the fact I could eat bananas maybe once or twice a year, when they appeared at the shop, everyone could afford their living, food, nobody was homeless, nobody was without work. If you happened to be without work while able to work, you were quite suspect. So called Blue Bird (polish Niebieski Ptak, russian Sinaya Ptica), either you lived from some money your family abroad sent you, or you performed some illegal activity... unless you just asked the social support for help. It was substantial enough to provide living to anyone too lazy to work, not high-standard though. Besides, it paid to work really. Forget the money, they didn't mean really much. But privledges. Vacations in your firm's contracted or owned hotel (Black Sea? Yugoslavia? Romania?), discounts on multitude of services, "christmas gifts", coupons to buy poorly available goods, countless other profits other than financial. You didn't HAVE TO work. You were just pretty much encouraged to do so.
And one wonderful thing I miss really deeply: Honesty and trust. You could travel whole eastern europe by hitchikng. You could leave your tent out in the wild for whole days without fear somebody would steal anything. You could ask a perfect stranger in the country to let you sleep overnight at their place and they would greet you warmly. Of course the unwritten rule of "do not steal" applied only to private property. Public property was stolen at will, and that's one of several reasons why the system collapsed. And if you were an artist, writer or such, you just belonged to an association which would pay you a monthly salary for writing books, playing music etc, and then provided them to the public for funny money. A record (vinyl) for as much as a loaf of bread. A book for about the same.
Re:When I remember Poland... (Score:5, Interesting)
Most of Eastern Europe fell from inefficient communism into brutal capitalism because of all the money to be made (for the very few rich), when what they needed was the efficient socialism of, e.g., Sweden.
In Sweden, most people don't pay taxes, which are income based in two brackets -- the bottom bracket pays 0%, and the upper bracket, which begins at 10% above the mean wage earned amounts to a tax of 57% of the portion of income above that level. As you might imagine, Sweden's system compresses almost everyone into the middle class while still allowing for plenty of incentive. This has resulted in an economy that looks perfect from the perspective of a capitalist or communist nation, with ultra-low unemployment, inflation, national debt, poverty, and infant mortality, and ultra-high longevity, per-capita spending power, and literacy. They have a thriving economy at all sizes of business, from sole-proprietorships to multinationals (e.g., Ikea, Volvo, Ericsson.) Sweden frequently ranks as the #1 place in the world to live on aggregate quality-of-life rankings.
I don't understand why so many of the post-communist countries aren't following Sweden's lead.
Re:When I remember Poland... (Score:0)
Just kidding.
Re:When I remember Poland... (Score:1)
Let's not forget that Sweden had the slight advantage of not being crushed to smithereens by both the Nazis and the Soviets, so it actually has the long-term economic and social stability which is required for a full welfare state.
Re:When I remember Poland... (Score:0)
Re:When I remember Poland... (Score:2, Informative)
You made this up yourself? The only ones who don't pay taxes in Sweden are students (if you don't count the 25% VAT).
the bottom bracket pays 0%, and the upper bracket, which begins at 10% above the mean wage earned amounts to a tax of 57%
Totaly wrong. Just isnt so.
with ultra-low unemployment,
Yeah, only like 7-8% or so.
inflation,
OK, you had a lucky guess....
national debt,
but just one
I don't hate the country I live in... but trust me, it ai
Get your facts straight... (Score:4, Informative)
Living here is good, that is true, but it is not the utopia you make it out to be.
You are describing Sweden in the 70's, not in the 00's. (Being completely intact after WWII gave us a good head start...)
After a slight crisis in the 90's national debt is up, unemployment is up a bit, and we are over all more on par with other western european countries.
Re:Get your facts straight... (Score:2)
Re:Get your facts straight... (Score:2)
The open unemployment rate was around 5% [riksbank.se] in october 2003.
And, concerning the debt:
The total Swedish national debt is 50% of GDP (end of 2002) and currently sinking slowly.
It may sound like a lot, but is actually less than the total would have been during the period the CIA Worldbook covers (we had a economic crisis in the early 90's. Since then, the administration has made a point of getting rid of the debt,
Re:Get your facts straight... (Score:0)
And that's before tax
I am sure they are getting a bit more perks from the government than one can expect to get in US, but I like to consider myself an responsible adult and therefore I value my right to decide how am I going to spend MY money.
If Swedes prefer to surrender that right to some faceless bureaucrat - that's their problem.
Re:When I remember Poland... (Score:2)
The problem is average IQ of 100 is damn low. People with this IQ and less have just enough votes to simply outvote the wise ones, and when their brains are being fed with pulp of "American Dream" and "Terror of Communism", seeing their boring, old, grey, average day [1], they just voted for the change, in hopes everyone could be some Easy Rider, Commando, Carrington, or whoever... So they voted capitalism.
And what you suggested is represented nowadays by
Re:When I remember Poland... (Score:1)
Oh boy, you're so utterly wrong.
Sweden is the most beautiful nation in the world, with the most beautiful women (they all look like Elin, Tiger's girl), and the friendliest people. We're the #1 nation in many respects.
When it comes to taxes, we're #1 too. According to the traditional definition of taxation (sum of taxes as a percentage of the gross national product), the sum of taxes in the year 2002 was the highest in Sweden with 50,6 percent. The EU average
Re:When I remember Poland... (Score:2)
Re:When I remember Poland... (Score:0)
Bullshit. The Eastern European countries which had a bad time suffered from theft from the state by cronies of the politicians. Capitalism was not possible in these countries because capitalism needs a functioning legal system.
Capitalism is the creation of wealth, not the concentration of existing wealth.
Re:When I remember Poland... (Score:1)
Problems? Main problem was availablity of consumer goods, and their quality. Everything was poor quality, it was hard to find good stuff, not enough of everything but the very basic. Freedom? Who cares? We had mostly all the freedom we ever wanted, with one -tiny- exception. No jokes, no attacks, no bitching about the government. Taboo. Easy as that. So... it wasn't freedom that people fought for.
Re:When I remember Poland... (Score:2)
That's the very point: the best. And anything from "poor" to "above average" is ears deep in shit I have described. Of course it's no problem to buy the tools, books, parts... with one tiny exception, an average family father would have to sacrifice about yearly salary to provide the kid with equipment similar to what they had in the workshops.
to have, above all, LIBERTY.
Ask your averagen Solidarity leader. He
Re:When I remember Poland... (Score:1)
Re:When I remember Poland... (Score:2)
Yes. mostly every village had some kind of 'culture centre'. Usually that was at the fire service station, where certainly not -as- much as in the cities could be done, but still libraries, art groups, meetings with celebrities of art and culture were often held there. But rural was never the worst problem, people always can feed themselves from their own crops,
Re:When I remember Poland... (Score:0)
Having said
Re:When I remember Poland... (Score:2)
They stopped condemning rock music, instead they pursued engaging it on their side (see the Manaam band)
And what exactly should we see about it? (BTW: it's Maanam [maanam.pl], not Manaam). Maybe the fact that in 1980's its music was banned from public radio (and there was no private radio) for the band's refusal to participate in some stupid Polish-Soviet Fri
Re:When I remember Poland... (Score:2)
Like the Hiacinth Action. I'm reading about it now, I didn't know it.
True, arrested, put on record and... released. Nobody was really hurt. All they had to do was to sign statements that they -are- gays. The documents were classified. And the action was a measure against spreading AIDS, to help lower crime rates in homosexual environment (higher than hetero, and detection rate lower) and against leaders of -underground- gay organisation. Besides that, it
Re:When I remember Poland... (Score:0)
I spend fucking 23 years in Poland
You are the fucking reason Polish Jokes were invented.