Doesn't their existing infrastructure, and social dependency on that infrastructure, give them a somewhat legitimate need for a bailout? If other, smaller, more efficient companies can replace everything the telecom behemoths do, then let the big boys suffer, but is that the case? Can smaller tech savvy companies do everything the large telecoms do or are we talking strictly about broadband internet?
Well, the point is that it is fundamentally wrong for the government to do anything to hinder the workings of the market economy.
When the government doesn't do anything to 'hinder' the economy, you get a situation like the roaring 20's, which leads to rapid inflation, and overvalued markets. Then you get the depression. The reason the world pulled out of the depression was because governments started spending lots of money (another interference in the market). The first economy to pull out of the depression was Germany, because their leader said, "I don't care if we don't have money - just build me a frickin' army!" Of course, they could have spent the money on road or schools too, and that would have worked, but hindsight in 20/20.
In more modern times, the central banks *agressively* set interest rates higher if the risk of inflation gets too high, so as to slow the economy, and governments will increase spending and lower interest rates if the economy slows down too much.
Get this through your head: the economy is naturally Unstable! This is what economists have learned in the past century. Economies have to be regulated by governments or they fail dramatically. You owe your prosperity to Greenspan and people like him (e.g. John Maynard Keynes).
As an aside... this natural instability, and our ability to control it with a feedback loop is why I think economists and control systems engineers like myself should spend some time working on the problem together. The problem of economic balancing and the control systems problem of balancing an inverted pendulum have many interesting similarities.
--respectfully disagree. Greenspan and keynesian "economics" are the cause of what is wrong right now, and will be the cause of many millions (billions probably) of people drastically going broke and actually suffering in a physical sense in the medium future. He -alan greenspan- is someone who knew full well what money really is but sold his soul basically the the international cartel of crooks and swindlers who run governments now. In my opinion he is a consumate liar and actually a traitor in every sense of the word.
The markets failed starting in 29 and lasting until a functional flat lined bottom in 34 precisely on purpose from a cartel of international bankers working in collusion with so called "govern" ment. It was done on purpose as a pure theft-a con game. First they-"they" will be this cartel-first they fully buildup the illusion that "stocks" represent a per measured value tangible asset in people's minds, when they are not. This is the main point of the scam. Stock market opt-in buying is touted as an "investment", people are encouraged to swap their tangible produced and accumulated "wealth" for a promise of vastly more wealth in the future using little or zero more effort than what they have already done. this is the greed factor at play here, which makes it so easy for the conmen to keep running this scam generation after generation. These people (most-broadly speaking for conversational purposes now) at that point lose control of their wealth. This is entirely 100% based on the easily understood human condition known as greed, ie, getting more than what you produced. There's even a childrens fairy tale I like to use to illustrate this as an anology, a lesson that isn't taught anymore to people although it is the most accurate and simplistic way to describe this phenomenon. Jack and the Beanstalk. Jack = the bulk of people buying into the market. The giant = the cartel of bankers/brokers/government/news media shills who profit from this trade of tangibles for intangibles based on greed. That part of the story is jack swapping the tangible wealth -the family cow for the intangible and based on greed magic beans, with magic beans represented first with fiat money scams and stocks and government paper based on a future agreed to theft of tangibles called bonds.
The "crash" then and the resultant "great depression" resulted in zero factories disappearing, no farms floating off into the ether, etc, nothing "crashes" it merely resulted in a "lawful" transfer of ownership of the tangible assets-the cows in the analogy- of millions of people-the "jacks"- into the hands of a relative small number few "connected giants".
It's a hell of a scam really.
Now as the larger of the giants now sought to consolidate their gains firmly into tangibles, the US in particular was put into receivership and needed bulk tangibles besides the ownership of the land and factories and smaller banks etc and this resulted in the confiscation and transfer of what was the limiting factor in cartel inspired fiat scams, ie, tangible based money which at the time was represented by hard metals. *see note. It became illegal to possess bullion for private individuals UNLESS they were part of this cartel. there is your exact proof that it was and still is a congame perpetuated by this cartel. They-the giants- know what tangibles are, the bulk of the jacks think magic beans are tangibles because the collective few big giants tell them this is so and it's the "official way" to do business, they are coerced into accepting this trade. that's the illegal/unethical con part. This tangible wealth of the great depression era got transferred to a very few large central bankers based in europe primarily. Now back at the ranch, people were told the market "crashed". Umm where's the collapsed whatevers? Oh ya,there aren't any. People working the day before producing tangibles-remember always tangibles are the only true wealth-were told to go home. sort of nuts but to perpetuate the scam it must be played out to the final part, each and every time. True tangible wealth wasn't needed or useful anymore they were told. Their "investments" they were told were worth zero or close to it, so they got "sold" which resulted merely in the transfer of the tangibles from many people to a few in the giant-cartel. Now at gunpoint this is called theft, but if it's accomplished using the government/bankers/brokers/media shills cartel using mass psyops, cooking the books, misrepresenting what wealth really is, etc, etc, etc this is "lawful". It is only accomplished by manipulating people from the point of reality based normal business practices-starting in chuildhood- into speculative greed based gambling, without ever mentioning the gambling part except in the very fine print if ever. Example curently today, no matter which mainstream stock shill you hear on any over the air show, zero of them will ever mention anything but buying more magic beans as something to do with your tangible cow-money. You won't hear it, it doesn't exist. This is because these folks would need to go get actual productive tangible wealth producing jobs and would lose their con angle. The con is loosely called bubble investing, many examples in the past the most famous (more or less) is "tulip mania".
There has been no true "stock" investing since roughly clipper ship days. The theory of honest investing is company A will produce wealth, not re-arrange already produced wealth. Re arranging is not producing. never, ever, ever. This is because for 4 generations now (I am broadly and very generally speaking now obviously) no one is taught the basic difference between tangible wealth and credit based magic beans wealth. This is to perpetuate this scam, it works very well, it results in a huge transfer of ownership of true wealth into the hands of a few based on, well,"lying" is the actual word to use.
It's happened again, we-the "jacks" of the world, are currently in a much worse position than in 29 based on this congame, and the cartel is now milking the last few drops out of jack's cow. Fractional reserve banking, derivatives and the illusion of virtual wealth being equal to tangible wealth in 99.9%+ of most peoples minds will insure this scam goes on. Expect it to get much worse as the finalized wealth transference of those people "investing" today gets complete. And these "investors" are included in the pool of people with large outstanding mortgages,and financed goods, etc, etc. Our economy as a whole is now credited to beyond the lifespan's of everyone living, it's based on a lie, same as people treating a federal reserve bank note as a tangible wealth instead of a debit contract, which it is in fact. And that is just indisputable data, a bank note is a contract for a debt it is not a tangibles based piece of money except for a relatively short time span in gross human historical terms. It is useful only so long as the (ponzi based) pyramidical scam structure is operating. once the bottom wide part of the pyramid is reached (about now), it has to be dissolved as there's no new pools of true wealth being introduced and the ratio of producers becomes smaller than the numbers of wealth-credit accumulators. The pyramid reverses 180 degrees, whoops, that's called a "crash". rinse lather repeat.
Hmm, it's a complicated subject until you can really get around tangibles and intangibles, then it gets remarkably easy to understand. You can see then that the crash in 29 was manipulated into happening, same as what is going on now is being allowed to happen. I have an honest estimate of that 99.9% figure too, I hardly ever meet anyone in meatworld who understands this tangible wealth concept, even so called business people. I know several people right now who think they are millionaires and own zero actual tangibles. having a lot of crediot is not the same as outright ownership of tangibles. Some do- a very few- but most don't. They get taken in by the congame and wonder what happened, the game let them win for awhile but the house has percentages on it's side.
Please trolls, no "I made money in the market" replies, this was addressed up above, wealth transference happens, it's just based on a series of congame principles.
money thoughts * I am a proponent of tangibles based "money" as opposed to fiat-credit based bank note debt instruments. Precious metals are one form of tangibles, my idea is to have a rotating top 100 tangible produced commodities to back "money" rather than poof created digits in a ledger, with metals being in the mix. Hmm haven't come up with a catchy name for this concept yet though, although I have written a few papers outlining the basic idea.
whatever dude!
I'm as big a fan of Chomsky as anyone else, but the cartel argument falls flat in the face of friendman's research showing a contraction of the money supply was the real cause of the great depression. Between '29 amd '33, there was a gross contraction of around %5 of the money supply. Literally, there wasn't money to invest. The federal reserve didn't really understand the value of monetary policy, and hence, made, in hindsight, a series of staggering errors of judement which guaranteed that a bad recession became the Great Depression.
--well, my main basic point is that it wasn't an accident like you have been taught. that part is the lie, it was done *on purpose* for vast wealth transference clouded in pseudo illegality. If you accept as writ in holy stone it was an oversight or accident, then yes the classic argument is accurate, whereas if you believe as I do that it was done on purpose, then my points are valid. That argument is tangential to the discussion but relevant. For reference purposes go back and research such topics as the rise of central banking in europe, who started the concept, fiat money based economies versus tangibles based, the 16th amendment and the floor vote and arguments, the creation of the federal reserve and the "act", some of the players involved, the mass media fatcats of the time and their holdings and etc. Research what happened with bullion and where it went.
The bottom line is there are no historical parallels which can show fiat/credit intangibles based economies are viable beyond a couple or ffew generations, no examples exist. In western based literature you can take the arguments all the way back to old testament times where the biblical injunction is to use honest weights and measures. Fiat created "money supply" is completely antithetical to that tried and true concept, hence why it fails in bubble boom and bust cycles.
It's fairly complex yet simple, there's no free lunch, something for nothing doesn't exist. You cannot create or accumulate tangible wealth based on intangibles, else we all could be "rich" instantly. It works for those at the very tippy top of the command and control structure only in the long run, as they have the armed power and psuops to insit on it working for them, but it doesn't change the fact that vast numbers of people have to have their wealth transferred to them, either voluntarily or involuntarily by executive decree and force usually, as is the case now. Wealth-true wealth not mere ledger entries picked at random by mystical formulae- is only measured by things taken from the ground, refined into something else, and by the ground itself. The Earth I am speaking of. Wealth is mined, grown, or manufactured from that which is mined or grown. No wealth is made by creating account ledger entries on a whim. Therefore only existing produced wealth is valid, and how it gets transferred around. If a "money" supply is based on future promises of wealth creation, and if it rises to the point there is no conceivable way to create this wealth within the timespans of those living, it collapses, based on whichever population model this monetary system encompasses.
It's collapsing now, so enjoy the ride. There is no more conceivable way to issue more credit and keep the economyworking at the same levels of wealth transference we "enjoy" now. Our true ratio of actual produced tangible wealth versus the representations of it in terms of monetized digits prmulgated by the scammer shills is a mere few percent now, wheras during the years immediatley proceeding the 29 crash it was runing at around 40 %. This is something to REALLY think long and hard on right now.
Advice here, freely given. Put whatever wealth you have into tangibles that are useful and more reflect human being necessities as opposed to luxuries, especially for yourself and family. Best advice I have for anyone now, or stay on the deck of the titanic and enjoy the music by the string combo. Two choices, choose once, choose wisely.
good luck friend
"Be there. Aloha."
-- Steve McGarret, _Hawaii Five-Oh_
Legitimate reason for bailout? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Legitimate reason for bailout? (Score:0, Flamebait)
This is why we should seriously consider abolishing the government and leaving everything to the market forces.
People like Friedman and Hayek have proved that markets are the ultimate source of truth, at least in this world.
Though it is always funny to read how commie CEO's beg for state subsidies to help their mismanaged companies.
The market economy answer is of course: sell it if it doesn't work.
Re:Legitimate reason for bailout? (Score:4, Informative)
When the government doesn't do anything to 'hinder' the economy, you get a situation like the roaring 20's, which leads to rapid inflation, and overvalued markets. Then you get the depression. The reason the world pulled out of the depression was because governments started spending lots of money (another interference in the market). The first economy to pull out of the depression was Germany, because their leader said, "I don't care if we don't have money - just build me a frickin' army!" Of course, they could have spent the money on road or schools too, and that would have worked, but hindsight in 20/20.
In more modern times, the central banks *agressively* set interest rates higher if the risk of inflation gets too high, so as to slow the economy, and governments will increase spending and lower interest rates if the economy slows down too much.
Get this through your head: the economy is naturally Unstable! This is what economists have learned in the past century. Economies have to be regulated by governments or they fail dramatically. You owe your prosperity to Greenspan and people like him (e.g. John Maynard Keynes).
As an aside... this natural instability, and our ability to control it with a feedback loop is why I think economists and control systems engineers like myself should spend some time working on the problem together. The problem of economic balancing and the control systems problem of balancing an inverted pendulum have many interesting similarities.
great depression, Jack and the Beanstalk (Score:1)
The markets failed starting in 29 and lasting until a functional flat lined bottom in 34 precisely on purpose from a cartel of international bankers working in collusion with so called "govern" ment. It was done on purpose as a pure theft-a con game. First they-"they" will be this cartel-first they fully buildup the illusion that "stocks" represent a per measured value tangible asset in people's minds, when they are not. This is the main point of the scam. Stock market opt-in buying is touted as an "investment", people are encouraged to swap their tangible produced and accumulated "wealth" for a promise of vastly more wealth in the future using little or zero more effort than what they have already done. this is the greed factor at play here, which makes it so easy for the conmen to keep running this scam generation after generation. These people (most-broadly speaking for conversational purposes now) at that point lose control of their wealth. This is entirely 100% based on the easily understood human condition known as greed, ie, getting more than what you produced. There's even a childrens fairy tale I like to use to illustrate this as an anology, a lesson that isn't taught anymore to people although it is the most accurate and simplistic way to describe this phenomenon. Jack and the Beanstalk. Jack = the bulk of people buying into the market. The giant = the cartel of bankers/brokers/government/news media shills who profit from this trade of tangibles for intangibles based on greed. That part of the story is jack swapping the tangible wealth -the family cow for the intangible and based on greed magic beans, with magic beans represented first with fiat money scams and stocks and government paper based on a future agreed to theft of tangibles called bonds.
The "crash" then and the resultant "great depression" resulted in zero factories disappearing, no farms floating off into the ether, etc, nothing "crashes" it merely resulted in a "lawful" transfer of ownership of the tangible assets-the cows in the analogy- of millions of people-the "jacks"- into the hands of a relative small number few "connected giants".
It's a hell of a scam really.
Now as the larger of the giants now sought to consolidate their gains firmly into tangibles, the US in particular was put into receivership and needed bulk tangibles besides the ownership of the land and factories and smaller banks etc and this resulted in the confiscation and transfer of what was the limiting factor in cartel inspired fiat scams, ie, tangible based money which at the time was represented by hard metals. *see note. It became illegal to possess bullion for private individuals UNLESS they were part of this cartel. there is your exact proof that it was and still is a congame perpetuated by this cartel. They-the giants- know what tangibles are, the bulk of the jacks think magic beans are tangibles because the collective few big giants tell them this is so and it's the "official way" to do business, they are coerced into accepting this trade. that's the illegal/unethical con part. This tangible wealth of the great depression era got transferred to a very few large central bankers based in europe primarily. Now back at the ranch, people were told the market "crashed". Umm where's the collapsed whatevers? Oh ya,there aren't any. People working the day before producing tangibles-remember always tangibles are the only true wealth-were told to go home. sort of nuts but to perpetuate the scam it must be played out to the final part, each and every time. True tangible wealth wasn't needed or useful anymore they were told. Their "investments" they were told were worth zero or close to it, so they got "sold" which resulted merely in the transfer of the tangibles from many people to a few in the giant-cartel. Now at gunpoint this is called theft, but if it's accomplished using the government/bankers/brokers/media shills cartel using mass psyops, cooking the books, misrepresenting what wealth really is, etc, etc, etc this is "lawful". It is only accomplished by manipulating people from the point of reality based normal business practices-starting in chuildhood- into speculative greed based gambling, without ever mentioning the gambling part except in the very fine print if ever. Example curently today, no matter which mainstream stock shill you hear on any over the air show, zero of them will ever mention anything but buying more magic beans as something to do with your tangible cow-money. You won't hear it, it doesn't exist. This is because these folks would need to go get actual productive tangible wealth producing jobs and would lose their con angle. The con is loosely called bubble investing, many examples in the past the most famous (more or less) is "tulip mania".
There has been no true "stock" investing since roughly clipper ship days. The theory of honest investing is company A will produce wealth, not re-arrange already produced wealth. Re arranging is not producing. never, ever, ever. This is because for 4 generations now (I am broadly and very generally speaking now obviously) no one is taught the basic difference between tangible wealth and credit based magic beans wealth. This is to perpetuate this scam, it works very well, it results in a huge transfer of ownership of true wealth into the hands of a few based on, well,"lying" is the actual word to use.
It's happened again, we-the "jacks" of the world, are currently in a much worse position than in 29 based on this congame, and the cartel is now milking the last few drops out of jack's cow. Fractional reserve banking, derivatives and the illusion of virtual wealth being equal to tangible wealth in 99.9%+ of most peoples minds will insure this scam goes on. Expect it to get much worse as the finalized wealth transference of those people "investing" today gets complete. And these "investors" are included in the pool of people with large outstanding mortgages,and financed goods, etc, etc. Our economy as a whole is now credited to beyond the lifespan's of everyone living, it's based on a lie, same as people treating a federal reserve bank note as a tangible wealth instead of a debit contract, which it is in fact. And that is just indisputable data, a bank note is a contract for a debt it is not a tangibles based piece of money except for a relatively short time span in gross human historical terms. It is useful only so long as the (ponzi based) pyramidical scam structure is operating. once the bottom wide part of the pyramid is reached (about now), it has to be dissolved as there's no new pools of true wealth being introduced and the ratio of producers becomes smaller than the numbers of wealth-credit accumulators. The pyramid reverses 180 degrees, whoops, that's called a "crash". rinse lather repeat.
Hmm, it's a complicated subject until you can really get around tangibles and intangibles, then it gets remarkably easy to understand. You can see then that the crash in 29 was manipulated into happening, same as what is going on now is being allowed to happen. I have an honest estimate of that 99.9% figure too, I hardly ever meet anyone in meatworld who understands this tangible wealth concept, even so called business people. I know several people right now who think they are millionaires and own zero actual tangibles. having a lot of crediot is not the same as outright ownership of tangibles. Some do- a very few- but most don't. They get taken in by the congame and wonder what happened, the game let them win for awhile but the house has percentages on it's side.
Please trolls, no "I made money in the market" replies, this was addressed up above, wealth transference happens, it's just based on a series of congame principles.
money thoughts * I am a proponent of tangibles based "money" as opposed to fiat-credit based bank note debt instruments. Precious metals are one form of tangibles, my idea is to have a rotating top 100 tangible produced commodities to back "money" rather than poof created digits in a ledger, with metals being in the mix. Hmm haven't come up with a catchy name for this concept yet though, although I have written a few papers outlining the basic idea.
Re:great depression, Jack and the Beanstalk (Score:1)
Re:great depression, Jack and the Beanstalk (Score:1)
The bottom line is there are no historical parallels which can show fiat/credit intangibles based economies are viable beyond a couple or ffew generations, no examples exist. In western based literature you can take the arguments all the way back to old testament times where the biblical injunction is to use honest weights and measures. Fiat created "money supply" is completely antithetical to that tried and true concept, hence why it fails in bubble boom and bust cycles.
It's fairly complex yet simple, there's no free lunch, something for nothing doesn't exist. You cannot create or accumulate tangible wealth based on intangibles, else we all could be "rich" instantly. It works for those at the very tippy top of the command and control structure only in the long run, as they have the armed power and psuops to insit on it working for them, but it doesn't change the fact that vast numbers of people have to have their wealth transferred to them, either voluntarily or involuntarily by executive decree and force usually, as is the case now. Wealth-true wealth not mere ledger entries picked at random by mystical formulae- is only measured by things taken from the ground, refined into something else, and by the ground itself. The Earth I am speaking of. Wealth is mined, grown, or manufactured from that which is mined or grown. No wealth is made by creating account ledger entries on a whim. Therefore only existing produced wealth is valid, and how it gets transferred around. If a "money" supply is based on future promises of wealth creation, and if it rises to the point there is no conceivable way to create this wealth within the timespans of those living, it collapses, based on whichever population model this monetary system encompasses.
It's collapsing now, so enjoy the ride. There is no more conceivable way to issue more credit and keep the economyworking at the same levels of wealth transference we "enjoy" now. Our true ratio of actual produced tangible wealth versus the representations of it in terms of monetized digits prmulgated by the scammer shills is a mere few percent now, wheras during the years immediatley proceeding the 29 crash it was runing at around 40 %. This is something to REALLY think long and hard on right now.
Advice here, freely given. Put whatever wealth you have into tangibles that are useful and more reflect human being necessities as opposed to luxuries, especially for yourself and family. Best advice I have for anyone now, or stay on the deck of the titanic and enjoy the music by the string combo. Two choices, choose once, choose wisely.
good luck friend